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The Amorality of Modern Church Worship

March 31 2016 at 11:40 AM
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The lack of teaching on such themes as marriage, honesty in daily living, sexual morality, duties to fellow man has had a dreadful effect on faithfulness not only to Christ but to the Church.

This is especially obvious when we analyze the teachings from the pulpit. The obsession with grace, to the ignoring of the workmanship of the Christian (See Ephesians 2:8-11), has led to latitudinal behavior and a pathetic answer to "Why would Jesus do?" (WWJD). Clearly the passage says that if we are "saved by grace through faith" that we are the workmanship of God.

It is also obvious when we examine our worship hymns. They are usually devoid of moral teaching. In this way, the modern worship service is a "golden calf," with us admiring the gold, but we have a calf instead of a moral God.

The continual emphasis on "fruits of the spirit" with a complete ignoring of the "works of the flesh" has become a disgrace to those who really want to realign their lives along Christian virtues. See Galatians 5:16-26.

The church worshipper comes away from worship "thirsty." Jesus said that he was the water of life.

John 4:13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

Isn't it about time we left the elemental teachings and are ready for meat of the word. Hebrews 6:1-3.

Simplistic teaching leads many to leave the church to search for some better instructions about how to lead their lives.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: The Amorality of Modern Church Worship

March 31 2016, 12:20 PM 

Millions of dollars are spent on "worship centers" Purpose Driven to denounce keeping commands, examples or even remote inferences for anyone not conspiring. Youth have their own centers and retreats where they are taught to despise the older generation even though "the did the best they could with their limited inability to read beyond the sacred pages."

The constantly teach that God was not opposed to the EXTERNAL worship in Amos but only their lack of spirituality. In fact, their lack of spirituality produces the musical idolatry including burning infants.

Amos 8:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit.

Looky! the Catamites, the lusted after Fruits.

Amos 8:2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit.

THE MARK: the "concision" or "dogs" Paul excluded by making worship in SPIRIT as opposed to IN FLESH.

3611. keleb, keh´-leb; from an unused root means. to yelp, or else to attack; a dog; hence (by euphemism) a male prostitute:—dog.

then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.
Amos 8:3 And the songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day,

Howling has much the same meaning as HALAL 3213. yalal, yaw-lal´; a primitive root; to howl (with a wailing tone) or yell (with a boisterous one):—(make to) howl, be howling.

saith the Lord GOD: there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence.
Amos 8:4 Hear this, O ye that swallow up the needy, even to make the poor of the land to fail,
Amos 8:5 Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn?
.....and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat,
.....making the ephah small, and the shekel great,
vand falsifying the balances by deceit?
Amos 8:6 That we may buy the poor for silver, and the needy for a pair of shoes;
.....yea, and sell the refuse of the wheat?

Amos 8:11 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
Amos 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
Amos 8:13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
Amos 8:14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.
Amos 9:1 ¶ I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake: and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Mar 31, 2016 12:21 PM

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Dianna Howell
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Too much amoral teaching

March 31 2016, 12:59 PM 

I have experienced the opposite Scripture. We were getting from the pulpit, the wisdom of man, which was nothing more than psychology. We had 6 lessons on Marriage, within the last 4 months. Which over emphasized the man is the head of the woman. I believe that most know this who are members of the CoC. Of course, someone could have been oblivious of this fact, but wouldn't it have been better to take them aside to help them. Kind of reminds me of promise keepers spiel. Anyway, I submit these verses for your consideration:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ KJV)
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (‭Hebrews‬ ‭4‬:‭12‬ KJV)

By the way, I agree with you about the songs. I think they are intended to make you feel good, instead of teach the scripture in which they are based.

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Re: Too much amoral teaching

March 31 2016, 1:30 PM 

There is a divide between progressive Churches of Christ and traditional.

I just haven't heard any lessons on marriage, and the topic is mute.

I'm glad that at least some are trying to teach, however imperfectly.

I use "progressive" only as a nominal term, not meaning that they are truly progressive.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Too much amoral teaching

March 31 2016, 1:47 PM 

I believe that J. E. Choate used the term "Lurching toward Sodom."

I think they are progressing toward Babylon.

"Standing in the bowl of the winged serpent, we are inside that sacramental chalice, drinking with our eyes, so to say, the intoxicant, there symbolized as wine, of the mystery of the substance of our being." - Joseph Campbell, Creative Mythology

"when the symbols provided by the social group no longer work, and the symbols that do work are no longer of the group, the individual cracks away, becomes disassociated and disoriented, and we are confronted with what can only be named a pathology of the symbol."
(Joseph Campbell, Myths to Live By, p. 89).

Campbell speaks of AFFECT IMAGES: the image of the new wineskin was one such affect image which has power over them minds of the simple lambs. Sectarian, Legalists andother words are gulped down by the bloggers like they had received a revelation from a supernatural being: Jude says that they probably did.

A huge tribulation happened right on time when the preachers lost faith in their "means op financial gain". Campbell and others agree with Paul when he called it strong delusions. The old "worship" didn't work so the invented "progressive" rituals but they were really "cracking away to the archaic" never knowing that they had lost connection with the HEAD.

The Jubilee Conspiracy jump started by the Pope boasted about "upsetting people's comfort zones" or creating dissociation. Paul calls them MAD women who had convinced everyone that no one could get a vision from a real "god" unless they were first driven mad.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Too much amoral teaching

March 31 2016, 2:14 PM 

Adam was to "cleave" to eve which meant that Adam should have been aware of the Devil and protected Eve.

Being the HEAD of a WOMAN mantra probably means that someone is trying to intimidate someone about who is on first. After 59 years my wife and I never had that discussion.

Paul was telling the men to pray for peace and silence to prevent an outbreak of wrath or and ORGY as the musical thing. He is telling the men to be SILENT in the "worship" sense.

He told the women to be silent because some just out of paganism believed that their singing, playing, clapping etc was evidence that their just out of paganism gods were speaking through them.

The men are to exercise authority which would silence everyhing.
The women are not to exercise authority or AUTHENTIA which means "self-authoring" as in modern songs and sermons.

The PURPOSE for silence was the one-piece pattern for the assembly. Saved always asks "made SAFE from what?"

1Tim. 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Word is Logos is truth is the Regulative Principle: excludes rhetoric, personal opinions, personal experiences, introductions, singing, playing instruments or acting.

All of keeping the women silent because many "just out of paganism" thought that if they "had a song" it must be from a God. Men are to be silent beyond the command to PREACH the word by READING the Word for comfort and doctrine. Sorry but that will not supply wages beyond GOING and teaching what Jesus commanded to be taught.

1Tim. 2:5 For there is one God,
and one mediator between God and men,
the MAN Christ Jesus;

Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father:
and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father;
and who the Father is, but the Son,
and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Jesus has already commanded that the elders "teach that which HAS BEEN TAUGHT" and therefore many usurp authority over Jesus.

Men don't get that authority otherwise. I get to be in charge when my wife leaves for a few days to visit relatives. That puts me under the dog and cat. Jesus defined RULING as SERVING. A RULER IS A PROTECTOR.

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Relationships in Church and Society

March 31 2016, 2:28 PM 

Did the preacher who spoke of wives obedience to their husband discuss "Husbands love your wives"?

Did he discuss husband should not provoke the wife to wrath, even as fathers might children? Ephesians 6:4.

Did he discuss that man and woman are "of the same flesh"? Ephesians 5:31.

He could point out that Paul discusses both side of every relationship, husbands and wives, fathers and children, and slaves and masters. Notice that mothers and children are not discussed in the passage, and that is odd is that the primary relationship in the family is mother with child.

Did he mention that Ephesians was written during a patriarchal society, such as Rome? How would the passage be applied today?

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Dianna Howell
(Login dianna01)

The wife's side

March 31 2016, 6:01 PM 

He did present from the wives perspective on 2 that I can remember. He did talk about loving the wife, beyond that I hesitate to state, as these sermons don't stick with me for very long. My husband and I discussed the use of so many sermons on the marriage topic, hence my recall on that. If I'm supposed to be in submission, then he can take the financial burden off me., and start paying the bills himself.Ha ha I do recall earlier sermons teaching that we are to compliment one another. This was awhile ago, longer than the 4 month period I am speaking of. He definitely has had some great lessons, he is very likable and quite charismatic. He would make a great evangelist.

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Dianna Howell
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Undermining parental authority

March 31 2016, 4:28 PM 

Unfortunately, when you disagree or start asking question, you tend to get sermons that can be offensive or hurtful. We got the ole listening to "false teachers", after I sent some of Ken's work out. I don't want to speak evil of anyone, he may have been deceived himself. The preacher craft was around long before I was born, but there were voices crying out to remove it from the assembly long ago. There is schism in my family that wasn't there before and everything I say at home is being questioned. That shouldn't be tolerated by any parent or wife. If I am speaking truth, then must I keep it to myself? I've seen too many "coincidences", coming to fruition in the past few months, from we need 150k to add to the building to changing song structure. It seems things were sped up, when I started asking questions. I have asked the eldership to meet with me one more time, to let them show scripture where I am wrong. I ask for everyone's prayers that my mission will be successful.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Undermining parental authority

March 31 2016, 5:17 PM 

God gave no man DOLE other than food or a living as they GO and obey the DIRECT COMMAND for evangelists. You have the same right to go teach or more right since you do not "eat up the living" of widows making long prayers which are HYMNS by the Greek definition.

Both men and women are bent on getting women into the pulpit rather than out of the pulpit: 1 Corinthians references Isaiah 33 says there will be no wise or Sophists, podiums or takers of shekals in the kingdom of Christ.

There is an organization called Gal328 proving that people are not able to read black text on white paper.

Gal. 3:28 There is NEITHER Jew nor Greek, there is NEITHER bond nor free,
there is NEITHER male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal. 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The read that to say that YOU cannot prevent BOTH male and female from being CLERGY. However, they were just deluded into seeing NEITHER as BOTH.

Eph. 4:6 One God and FATHER of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all

Matt. 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Matt. 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Matt. 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Matt. 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Matt. 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Matt. 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

God is not our FATHER in the "hatching" sense although He ordained the laws of Generation. Father is:

Pater Hence, patres = patricii
A. The father as head and resentative of the household,
the title given to the high-priest of Mithras,” Of the founder of a school:
of a teacher, as a source or creator
: Isocrates pater eloquentiae,”

pa^tēr author of songs IV. metaph., father, author, “aoidan p . . . euainētos orpheus” their own tou logou p

Preachers are now calling themselves the authoritative teachers or Fathers.

It is a fact: preachers are always threatened even by simple questions because they are not prepared to give an answer. If we become a School of the Word as Scripture notes then you can always discuss without having to make everything into a dogma

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Mar 31, 2016 5:23 PM

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Undermining parental authority

March 31 2016, 7:47 PM 

Did you just listen to some sermons on Mark: Demon Possession and Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

He seems to think that the GODHEAD is "father, son and spirit" and that Jesus was God in the flesh.

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Dianna Howell
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March 31 2016, 9:38 PM 

I haven't attended in about a month now. He did teach about the Godhead being a person, so I probably shouldn't say he should be an evangelist. We must teach scripture in truth, or we are not obeying God. I didn't think about what I was saying, I will be more cautious. Glad you pointed that out to me!

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Ken Sublett
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Re: True

April 1 2016, 12:01 PM 

If I have the right preacher (not sure) he preached a sermon on Mark 1 and seemed to put himself in the place of Jesus being interrupted by a demon spirit person: said the church had those. I cringed. Jesus went into the synagogue on the Sabbath because that is where the people would be gathered to "Rest, read and rehearse" the Scriptures. He didn't have an office there.

Mark 1:21 And they went into Capernaum;
and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.
Mark 1:22 And they were astonished at his doctrine:
for he taught them as one that had authority,
and not as the scribes.


Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the SABBATH day, and stood up for to READ.
Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was WRITTEN,
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

PATTERN for the church in the wilderness and never changed:

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that PREACH him, being READ in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Luke 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

The REST of Messiah was defined both inclusively and exclusively by the Spirit OF Christ in the prophets.
Jesus said that all that was PROPHESIED about Him would be fulfilled and certified BEFORE the Old Covenant PASSED AWAY. When you just SPEAK the Word as written you are a PROPHET if you can say "thus saith the Lord."

Luke 4:24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.

Luke 4:25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
Luke 4:26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
Luke 4:27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.
Luke 4:28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
Luke 4:29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.
Luke 4:30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way,

They hoped to get the SCRIPTURE QUOTER treated as a SCAPEGOAT

Then He came to to Capernaum where the preacher missed the MESSAGE but more than implied that his word might be troubled:

Mark 1:23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
Mark 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth?
art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
Mark 1:25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.
Mark 1:26 And when the unclean spirit had torn him,
and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.

Rom. 15:4 For whatsoever things were WRITTEN aforetime were written for our LEARNING, that we through patience and comfort of the SCRIPTURE might have hope.
Rom. 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
Rom. 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.


If this is your preacher you need to show up and bear witness. I pointed out only scripture which is the only vocational role of ALL of us. This is WWJD time: just smile and rejoice.

As Scripture noted CULTURE HAS CHANGED: the changelings think that they have to raise more money and hire more staff. But, Guttenberg has come and we learned to Read. The Internet came and THAT is the way to "go into all the world and teach" and NOT build more houses because God will not be there.

People on the cutting edge can be brittle: I went to college in a town with an old Studebaker factory: I remember my defensive attitude when they told me that they were not going to build buggy whips any longer. Going from vacuum tubes to transistors was very traumatic.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Apr 1, 2016 12:09 PM

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Dianna Howell
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I should still attend?

April 1 2016, 1:49 PM 

Are you saying that I should remain, although I see things wrong. I am concerned that my son will be taught error? I have been thinking and reading about this all morning. I feel that I am supporting error if I go, but then I'm taking my voice out of the fight. So do I keep scrapping? Speaking truth in godliness!

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Dianna Howell
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Speak evil of no man

April 1 2016, 10:51 AM 

While reading this morning I came across these verses :

To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. (‭Titus‬ ‭3‬:‭2‬ KJV)

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (‭Ephesians‬ ‭6‬:‭12‬ KJV)

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. (‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭2‬ KJV)

I apologize for speaking ill of this man. I have been forgiven so much, and God is the judge of his heart. If I am doing something wrong then I would want someone to point it out. I should probably keep my mouth shut and listen.

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Re: Undermining parental authority

March 31 2016, 11:57 PM 

So many preachers forget that the society in which we live has an egalitarian (equalitarian) relationship between husbands and wives. It is nominally patriarchal but matricentric in nature. With wives working and not "keepers at home" the financial relationship has changed in the last half century. This gives the woman more practical power, and so she has been able to occupy a more central relationship, with husband doing much of the housework and parenting, since she is in the work force.

The attitudes toward such topics will vary depending on the age of the person, and also on the position in church leadership. Most Churches of Christ have some ruling elders, who don't want to be questioned, and want to keep power away from the congregation. Much of the waywardness of the Lord's people is perhaps encouraged by elders who will not listen to the congregation, especially to the womenfolks, and so they are able to take the church down the road often suggested by the preacher. A preacher-elder conspiracy is especially harmful, but generally the preacher is a little more open and when this happens there can be much controversy.

Nothing substitutes for a learned congregation--learned and taught in the ways of the Word of God. As that is implanted in each individual congregation, the church can gain much truth.

We will pray for you and your family and the church that it might be able to survive these issues.

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Rejoice in the Lord Always!

April 1 2016, 3:18 PM 

Philippians 4 NIV

1 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, you whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, stand firm in the Lord in this way, dear friends!

2 I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to be of the same mind in the Lord. 3 Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life.

4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

8 Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. 9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Rejoice in the Lord Always!

April 1 2016, 4:03 PM 

I picked the wrong preacher for Dianne but it probably fits.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: The Amorality of Modern Church Worship

April 1 2016, 4:07 PM 

Good thought NCP. This is one of the "never musical" commands in all of Paul's letters. The word SELAH is used to mean STOP the Psalm and give us time to Meditate IN THE HEART. Meditate is meletae while musical melody is "melos" and Psallo never in recorded history meant musical melody.

It is not possible to accidentially fail to understand the Way of Peace. People who give themselves liberty to dominate you is purpose driven to sow discord or "upset your comfort zones" or create dissociation to disable you enough to not jump out of the boiling water.

That is the Amorality of modern Church Worship which is defined inclusively and exclusively in Philippians 4 and all recorded "patterns" from the Church of Christ (the Rock) from the wilderness onward. We add the Lord's Supper to remember that Jesus died to become the ONLY authoritative teacher Who PATTERNED only speaking what the Father breathed (spirit) or inspired Him to Say.

According to the Spirit OF Christ in Amos God hates singing in the holy places and

Prov. 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

[linked image]

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Apr 1, 2016 5:00 PM

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Dianna Howell
(Login dianna01)

Thank you everyone

April 1 2016, 6:03 PM 

Glad you both pointed out those scriptures. I really just didn't know what to do, glad I have godly people to help me!

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There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

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