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Are elders destroying the unity?

April 19 2016 at 10:24 AM
Dianna Howell  (Login dianna01)
from IP address

Dianne thought that this was worthy of a thread. She is going to be a great forum teacher. Maybe someone will giver her an answer. They don't have to give their real name.

DIANNE'S FIRST THREAD as she understands a few points: She will use this and other resources--as we all do.

They missed the point THE FAITH is THE WORD, Logos or The Regulative Principle: it is exclusive of rhetoric, singing, playing instruments or acting.

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro,
and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

-Fluctuo fluctus, to move in the manner of waves, i. e. to wave, rise in waves, undulate, to move to and fro, be driven hither and thither
I. Trop., to be restless, unquiet, uncertain, doubtful; to rage, swell; to waver, hesitate, vacillate, fluctuate, Oratio II. In partic., formal language, artificial discourse,

-Oratio E. A prayer, an address to the Deity (eccl. Lat.): “respice ad orationem servi tui,” Vulg. 3 Reg. 8, 28: “per orationes Dominum rogantes,” id. 2 Macc. 10, 16: “pernoctans in oratione Dei,” id. Luc. 6, 12.—Also absol., prayer, the habit or practice of prayer: “perseverantes in oratione,” Vulg. Act. 1, 14: “orationi instate,” id. Col. 4, 2; cf. Gell. 13, 22,

-cĭto . To put into quick motion, to move or drive violently or rapidly, to hurl, shake, rouse, excite, provoke, incite, stimulate, promote,
Carried About:
Greek Panourgia see more below

-Circumfero to bear something or carry around “lyram in conviviis,” Quint. 1, 10, 19
-Lyra , ae, f., = lura,
I. a lute, lyre, a stringed instrument resembling the cithara, fabled to have been invented by Mercury and presented to Apollo, Hyg. Astr. 2, 7: “curvae lyrae parens,” Hor. C. 1, 10, 6: “Threiciam digitis increpuisse lyram,” Ov. H. 3, 118: “mox cecinit laudes prosperiore lyrā,” id. A. A. 3, 50; Val. Fl. 5, 100.—
II. Transf.
A. Lyric poetry, song: “imbellis,” Hor. C. 1, 6, 10: “Aeoliae Lesbis amica lyrae,” Ov. Am. 2, 18, 26; id. P. 3, 3, 45.—
B. In gen., poetic genius: “Inferior lyra,” Stat. Th. 10, 445.—
C. Lyra, the constellation, the Lyre: “exoriente Lyra,” Ov. F. 1, 315; cf. Hyg. Astr. 3, 6; Varr. R. R. 2, 5.

-Con-vīvĭum , ii, n. vivo; lit., I. a living together; hence, a meal in company, a social feast, entertainment, banquet

-Quint. 1, 10, 19 From the importance thus given to music also originated the custom of taking a lyre round the company after dinner, and when on such an occasion Themistocles confessed that he could not play, his education was (to quote the words of Cicero) “regarded as imperfect.”
B. Of a narrative or discourse, to publish abroad, proclaim, divulge, disseminate among the people, report
C. In the lang. of religion, to lustrate, purify any one by carrying around him consecrated objects (torches, offerings, etc.)
D. In rhetoric: “oratio deducta et circumlata,” expanded, drawn out into periods, Quint. 4, 1, 60 Spald.

-Ventus wind 3. Ventis verba dare, i. q. not to keep one's word or promise, Ov. H. 2, 25 Ruhnk.
B. [Plur., personified as deities, the winds: te, Apollo sancte, fer opem; teque, omnipotens Neptune, invoco, fame, applause, Turbo
p. Cic. Tusc. 4, 34, 73 (Com. Rel. v. 119 Rib.); Lucr. 5, 1230 (1228); cf. Ov. H. 17 (18


Dianne made a second thread when she intended to add to the first thread. This was her second thread as she understands the discussion.

Hermes appears to have been the chief of the Cabiri (Roscher, Myth. Lex. 2360); with his cult compare the Gallic (Caesar, B. G. vi. 17; Rhys, Hibbert Lectures, pp. 5-20 and ch. iv) and German (Tac. Germ. 9) worship of Mercurius. The latter, Odin, would seem to be like Hermes a wind god, and this may be true also of the Thracian deity. It seems improbable that the Thracians were content with so small a pantheon.
Mercury or Hermes is KAIROS: the demon spirit son of Zeus


Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists;
and some, pastors and teachers;

Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry,
for the edifying [educating] of the body of Christ:

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith,
and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
unto a perfect man,
unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children,
tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Wind of Doctrine

Venio A. In gen.: “vides, quo progrediente oratione venturum me puto,” Cic. Rep. 1, 40, 62.
B. fin. and the passages there cited: “oratorum laus ita ducta ab humili venit ad summum, ut, etc.,”“prava [crooked] ex falsis opinionibus veniunt,” Quint. 5, 10, 34:

Latin săpĭo or Sophos ops voice, whether in speaking, shouting, lamenting or in singing, “Kirkēs .[CHURCH] . aeidousēs opi kalē” Od.10.221, cf. 5.61; “aeidon also of cicadae, “opa leirioessan hieisi” Il.3.152;

eir-ioeis of the cicadae, opa leirioessan their delicate voice, 3.152; of the Muses' voice, [LOCUSTS] Hes.Th.41; “Hesperides” Q.S.2.418 guarded a garden with golden apples,

Hes. Th. 41 So said the ready-voiced daughters of great Zeus, and they plucked and gave [30] me a rod, a shoot of sturdy laurel, a marvellous thing, and breathed into me a divine voice to celebrate things that shall be and things that were aforetime; and they bade me sing of the race of the blessed gods that are eternally, but ever to sing of themselves both first and last.
[35] But why all this about oak or stone? Come you, let us begin with the Muses who gladden the great spirit of their father Zeus in Olympus with their songs, telling of things that are and that shall be and that were aforetime with consenting voice. Unwearying flows the sweet sound [40] from their lips, and the house of their father Zeus the loud-thunderer is glad at the lily-like voice of the goddesses as it spreads abroad, and the peaks of snowy Olympus resound, and the homes of the immortals.

Panourgia (g3834) pan-oorg-ee'-ah; from 3835; adroitness, i.e. (in a bad sense) trickery or sophistry: - (cunning) craftiness, subtilty.
-Panourg-êma A. knavish trick, villainy,; sophistry, Gal.5.251; cf. panourgeuma.

Sophos A.skilled in any handicraft or art, clever, mantis” Id.Th.382; “oiōnothetas” mostly of poets and musicians, Pi.O.1.9, P.1.42, 3.113; en kithara s. as an exclamation of applause

1Cor. 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you
seemeth to be wise [sophos] in this world,
let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1Cor. 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.
For it is written,
He taketh the wise sophia
in their own craftiness. pa^nourg-ia
1Cor. 3:20 And again,
The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, sophōn
that they are vain. matai-os
Eph. 4:15 But speaking [opposite ODE] the truth in love,
may grow up into into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph. 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Dianne is a NAVIGATOR and she found A Survey of the Old Testament Which I thought I had lost when my computer crashed. They were in WORD format and I have found them and will put them into HTML.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Apr 21, 2016 10:01 AM

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(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Are elders destroying the unity?

April 19 2016, 1:49 PM 

Post moved:

This is the pattern practiced by the Godly people from the wilderness up to the time of Christ. Jesus patterned that READING in the Synagogue but GOING out to preach the Good News which removed the laded burden and burden laders.

This was the pattern practiced and commanded by Paul to Timothy and Peter. Peter defined the RESOURCE as the Prophets by Christ made more certain by Jesus and recorded for out "memory" by the Apostles. Peter says that this resource is not to be private interpreted which means further expounded: this would repudiate the Words of Christ validated by signs and wonders.

Christ gave the spiritual gift of APT ELDERS defined by Paul to Titus as "already laboring to the point of exhaustion in preaching and teaching" as the only Pastor-Teachers of a local congregation. They COULD NOT conduct assembly without first EXCISING the cunning craftsmen or sophists: these are rhetoricians, singers, instrument players or actors. That was excluded for the church in the wilderness. Just common sense because A Church of Christ is a School of the Words of Christ in the prophets and apostles.
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners,
but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the [Educated by] foundation of the apostles and prophets,
Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Ephesians 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple IN the Lord:
Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Baptized believers receive A holy spirit or A good conscience so they can understand the Word of God which is HIDDEN from the Wise or Sophists: Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: speakers, singers and instrument players (Spirit says in Ezekiel 33)

The Words of Christ are SPIRIT and LIFE: the only source of revival. (John 6:63)
They are the only resource for worship IN THE SPIRIT as opposed to in the flesh or "worship centers."

The spirits of righteous men made PERFECT are translated into a heavenly kingdom. Jesus says the kingdom does not come with observation. That means religious services demanding performers: that is defined as lying wonders of delusional people who believe that they can revive the world for which Jesus does not even pray.
It is not remotely possible to have ever read the Bible and get a hint that God is so petty that He can be honored by any kind of body worship which is legalism.

(An excerpt from Ken Subletts work, which I couldn't have said better myself)

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Song of Solomon

April 19 2016, 2:09 PM 

Dianne notes that the Song of Solomon is being used to teach about sex in Bible classes. This is not a role for either elders or preachers especially if they do not understand the text.

We have discussed what Jesus and others identified as Holy Scripture which was CONCERNING HIM. A Church of Christ is built upon the prophets and apostles because The Spirit OF Christ was breathed into the Prophets and Jesus made these prophecies more certain. Note what Solomon says of himself:

Song 3:7 Behold his bed, which is Solomon’s; threescore valiant men are about it, of the valiant of Israel.

Song 3:8 They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night.

Song 3:9 King Solomon made himself a chariot of the wood of Lebanon.

Song 3:10 He made the pillars thereof of silver, the bottom thereof of gold, the covering of it of purple, the midst thereof being paved with love, for the daughters of Jerusalem.

Song 3:11 Go forth, O ye daughters of Zion, and behold king Solomon with the crown wherewith his mother crowned him in the day of his espousals, and in the day of the gladness of his heart.

The Songs are not a PATTERN for teaching youth: in fact, Solomon describes a RITUAL DRAMA still recited by the Jews. God had turned the Jews over to worship the Starry Host (Acts 7 etal) and did NOT command king, kingdom, temple, animal slaughter or Levites making exorcism noises.

We have noted that Lamenting for Tammuz was a Babylon Epic Drama or Play and was still practiced by the Jews in Rome. Paul forbids anything which did not edify or educate with "that which is written for our learning."

The Song of Solomon is exactly a ritual drama about Tammuz or Adonis: it is NOT inspired in the sense that it is a PATTERN for teaching youth about making love.

Theocritus defines the same Ritual Drama or Rising up to Play. When you try to dramatize the Word you are making Jesus a SPECTACLE. Because none are able to hear A spirit other than Abaddon-Apollon, the direct command to SPEAK or READ that which is written is a DIRECT COMMAND preachers ignore at their peril.

It has long been recognised that the Song has parallels with the pastoral idylls of Theocritus, a Greek poet who wrote in the first half of the 3rd century BCE;[15] against this, it clearly shows the influence of Mesopotamian and Egyptian love-poetry. It appears closer to Egyptian love-poetry from the first half of the 1st millennium than to Greek parallels from the last As a result of these conflicting signs, speculation ranges from the 10th to the 2nd centuries BCE,[12] with the cumulative evidence supporting a later rather than an earlier date.[18]

The setting in which the poem arose is also debated.[20] Some academics posit a ritual origin in the celebration of the sacred marriage of the god Tammuz and the goddess Ishtar.[21] Whether this is so or not, the poem seems to be rooted in some kind of festive performance.[20] External evidence supports the idea that the Song was originally recited by different singers representing the different characters, accompanied by mime.

Kramer: here is good reason to conclude that at least some of the passionate and rhapsodic love songs of which the book is composed, are cultic in origin, and were sung in the course of the hieros gamos, or “sacred marriage,” between a king and a votary of Astarte, the Canaanite goddess of love and procreation whom even so wise a Hebrew king as the great Solomon worshipped and adored, according to 1 Kings 11:5. But as more than one scholar has surmised, this Canaanite rite itself has Mesopotamian roots;

1Kings 11:5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Acts 7

April 19 2016, 4:09 PM 

Dianne, we are living in a spooky, supernatural period of signs and wonders. People CANNOT catch on or they are PURPOSE DRIVEN to deceive everyone. I have post this several times and no one seems to get a rise out of it. That was repeated in the Garden of Eden and at Mount Sinai for which god TURNED THEM OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST.

So, when reading about Solomon's story and the fact that God did not command solomon to build that house--a ziggurat--the same lost spirits try to RESTORE Babylonianism while insisting on being a First Century Church.

Artists have always trumped theologians:

[linked image]

[linked image]

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Dianna Howell
(Login dianna01)

Soloman not for the assembly

April 19 2016, 5:33 PM 

In my youth we were told to stay clear of Soloman. We could read it, but it was never discussed in the assembly. Perhaps, it would have been beneficial to everyone to learn that it had pagan roots. Reminds me of the dumbing down of in keep the lambs dumb before the slaughter.

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: Are elders destroying the unity?

April 20 2016, 2:36 AM 

This is a great topic, Dianna!!! [I think I spelled your name correctly. happy.gif] We should discuss this further. But it appears that your original message or premise may have been inadvertently omitted.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Are elders destroying the unity?

April 20 2016, 10:15 AM 

I tried to combine her second thread into one: hope I didn't miss anything.

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(no login)

Re: Are elders destroying the unity?

April 20 2016, 10:36 AM 

Just a silly FONT change, I'm sure. happy.gif
And names, well they can be tricky!

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Are elders destroying the unity?

April 20 2016, 10:50 AM 

Dianne or Dianna was a goddess. For me!

Nope! when I bought my Phduh they learned me how to cut and paste. I would say that was a bargain for only $50,000 for a professor to read me out of his thesis made into a textbook.

They have been converted into "Made Off University" in the Theology-Trumps-Scripture.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Apr 20, 2016 10:52 AM

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Dianna Howell
(Login dianna01)

With an "A" is correct

April 20 2016, 3:03 PM 

My dad actually did me after the goddess Diana or Dianna. What should the premise have been? Can someone suggest a title that would be appropriate for the thread? NCP, I accidentally posted on the wrong thread, and Ken moved it for me. As I explained to him, I was in a hurry when I posted. Ken can use whichever spelling he likes, I will answer to both Dianna and Dianne.

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Dianna Howell
(Login dianna01)

Should say named me

April 20 2016, 4:58 PM 

Prior post should dad actually "named" me after the goddess Diana or Dianna.

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(no login)

Stand Alone...Good Grief!

April 20 2016, 11:16 PM 

Apparently, you two communicate behind the scene. If you can make stand alone posts you will not have this problem. This has to be embarrassing. I do believe the secret is out. happy.gif

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Stand Alone...Good Grief!

April 21 2016, 1:28 AM 

I would say that we have true disciples (learners) of Christ in our midst. I think Dianna is a disciple of Christ with an open mind.

(However, I'm still somewhat confused about the post being "moved" [from where?] and combining the "second thread into one." Would quoting [with quotation marks] or font color/size help? OK ... it's probably just my lack of time to review various messages being posted. I need to read the posts so I can make the "connection.")

NCP, you have a new, expensive computer? And a new forum handle? Does it mean "National Consumer Panel"? Just kidding.

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(no login)

Re: Stand Alone...Good Grief!

April 21 2016, 8:22 AM 


I still use the computers at the Library. The kids still make fun of me and call me names. I sneak and hide and stay at the library most nights.


The good news is NCP is due to rotate very soon. Sarge is on his way in. Two days and a wake-up! See you then!


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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Stand Alone...Good Grief!

April 22 2016, 2:37 AM 


Now you'll have to explain further. I'm hearing that "nim com poot" is an obsolete version of the Democratic Underground website. Is this true? happy.gif Careful!!! We know a lot about 'em liberal, progressive, anti-Constitution Democrats. sad.gif Hopefully, politics and religion don't mix.

I think the kids love you and have fun with you. You also have a good hiding place.

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Dianna Howell
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Stand Alone...Good Grief!

April 21 2016, 10:28 AM 

Donnie, I have tried to separate the two posts. See iffen this helps.

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Dianna Howell
(Login dianna01)

Are elders destroying the unity

April 21 2016, 11:07 AM 

The first post was started by me.
The second post I accidentally put on a different thread, but meant for it to be placed on this one that I had started. I used some of Ken's prior comments, and gave him credit at the bottom of post, hence the message in parenthesis. Next time I will use my own words to replace his comments, any research material that he has I will give him credit. He has given me permission to use any of his work.
The third post was Ken's, based on a conversation that we had via email. Based on prior comments about my personal experiences being posted on this forum, I chose to write to Ken privately. He obviously thought the subject we discussed needed to be posted to this thread. And I agree. The subject matter that was taught in the high school class, left my son with a false impression about the marriage relationship, and how it relates to Our Heavenly Father. We as parents were told the class was something completely different than what was discussed. Yes, this and other incidents have caused a division with my family and I know others are concerned about what is being taught. Who is supposed to keep the wolves out? I don't let them in my home, and I want to feel safe amongst my fellow congregants.

Hope this clears up any confusion. As always Ken has my permission to reveal anything that we talk about if I will help someone else to wake up, and start asking questions.

(Donnie, I don't remember which thread I posted that second comment, but it was meant for this one. This has been a crazy week for me, and that's not the only mistake I've made. I am an amateur posting on forums. Can you tell?)

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(no login)

Re: Are elders destroying the unity

April 21 2016, 12:28 PM 

Can we just move on. TMI.

[linked image]

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Are elders destroying the unity

April 22 2016, 3:07 AM 


The image reminds me of: "... there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (cf. the Gospels). You're right: we need to get back to the original topic of this thread: "Are elders destroying the unity?"

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Are elders destroying the unity

April 22 2016, 2:58 AM 


Keep up the great work you're doing: CM values your messages. Always feel free to quote from Ken's writings. In many cases Ken has already done the research for us with scriptural support.

Thank you for contributing. You have challenged us with thought-provoking questions and comments.

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There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

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Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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