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Honoring the Old Testament and Law

June 16 2016 at 10:59 AM
Scripture  (no login)
from IP address 23.117.130.209

Churches should bear in mind that the Old Testament was the only Bible that early Christians had, until the forming of the canon which gradually took place during the first three centuries of the Christian age. Timothy was praised for knowing the Scriptures which would make him wise unto salvation. His mother and grandmother had raised him to honor what is now our Old Testament. Paul shows us that the Old Testament was written as an example for us, and his books, as are the entire New Testament, just loaded with Old Testament references. The writer to the Hebrews shows how that many Old Testament passages must be understood in their figurative sense.

Paul with all the good that he did showed grace as answer to an individual's failure to keep the whole law, as did James in his letter. At the same time Paul said that it was only through "law" that we know evil, and can really appreciate the grace that is in Christ.

Unfortunately, however, many have corrupted grace which Paul talks about in Romans 6, verse 1. Many churches and individuals have corrupted grace as Paul warns, to the neglect of law. Granted, the law today, is the law of liberty, but blatant transgressions are forgiven upon repentance and subsequent reformation.

Many today, are like Thomas Jefferson, who make their own New Testament, with whole passages either ignored, skipped over, rejected, and not read. Preachers among others are good at ignoring and skipping around verses that don't fit their prejudices. This is particularly noticeable when New Testament passages which clearly warn about the wrath of God are omitted from their public readings as well as their teaching.

I suggest that Old Testament should once again gain its rightful place in Christian doctrine.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: Honoring the Old Testament and Law

June 16 2016, 1:49 PM 

So true: much of the New Testament and especially by Paul is a commentary on the Law of Moses which was given because of transgression.

Some of the universities bonded with the NACC have spend lots of time on the Exodus and of Revelation. They use the exodus as a PATTERN for their false religions rather than as an EXAMPLE or pattern.

It is amazing that they can cover Exodus and Revelation and totally miss the BULL'S EYE THING. Most of the discorders mock the concept of prophecies debunking the New Testament's showing how they were fulfilled. They also mock TYPES even when they are often. TUPOS means an example intended to be imitated.

 
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Bill
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The OT and Law Are History

June 16 2016, 8:22 PM 

Christians can study the OT as the history of the early life of the world, the history of the ancient Israelites, and the era of the Law of Moses, but surely Scripture is not suggesting that Christians take up the Law of Moses again with all its dietary restrictions, sacrifices, and so forth. To do so is to make null the sacrifice of Christ, as Paul so noted. For example the Old Law called for "an eye for an eye"; Jesus ended that as well as the rest of the Law by dying on the cross (which Scrip, Donnie, and Ken now loathe).

 
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Scripture
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Re: The OT and Law Are History

June 17 2016, 12:14 AM 

There are many great rewards for knowing BOTH New Testament as well as Old Testament, and a life of study can be given to them.

As a start, the instructions of Paul in the letters to Timothy, "Study [give diligence] to show yourself approved, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing [handling aright] the Word of God." We would need to understand it from compartmentalizing it, and subjecting it to scrutiny using New Testament principles, or teaching.

I would divide the Law [Genesis through Deuteronomy] as "tribal law." Joshua and Judges stand out as conquest and low level secular law. The books of Samuel through 2 Chronicles show the futility of hierarchical religious government--which suggests another age is coming with a true ruler, such as the Christ.

The major and minor prophets shows God working in history, and his pronouncement of judgment on governments, and the need for believers and prophets to sacrifice their lives and fortunes for Truth. There is a growth of awareness of other people than the tribal individuals as Elijah and Elisha become regional prophets, and eventually the major prophets are known through the world as the Babylonians captivity begins.

The psalms and other literature books are good for ways to pray and to accept and even question God at times.

As a start, Jesus pulls "love God" and "love man" from the second statement of Moses 10 commandments, where he said that we are to love God with all our heart, soul, and might [Deut. 6:4], and the second commandment from Leviticus 19:18. These are stated as the foundation of all morality (Matthew 22:37-40), guiding all the 10 commandments and the various 613 commands in the entire Old Testament.

You can then understand the 10 commandments in context of the great two commandments that Jesus gave. The other of the 613 or so commandments must be understood in the context of Christ's teaching in the gospels and in Paul's and the other writers of the New Testament epistles. But there is a handshaking or symbiotic relationship between law and gospel, and knowledge of both testaments are very helpful to get the full picture.

One helpful point of view are the commands that Jesus puts down since they don't register the heart. He emphasizes it is the inner condition of the individual that makes all the difference, and not the outward show. This may be the great secret that law emphasizes external observable behavior, but the true measure of righteousness comes from within. This is particularly pointed out in Jeremiah 7:1-11.

Pillars of the Old Testament that Jesus "generally" weakens are: temple, Sabbath, food ritual, and Moses. He strengthens treatment of others, respect for God, Abraham, inner intentions [heart] more than outward show [ritual], and the temple becomes people of God.

What is really a big deal, is the difference between the goals of Joshua with his wars of conquest and the peace that Jesus emphasizes in the Beatitudes (Matthew 5). Joshua, from my understanding, is mentioned only twice in the New Testament and doesn't receive much attention.

 
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Ken Sublett
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Re: The OT and Law Are History

June 17 2016, 1:28 PM 

Thanks! I will try not to mess up your thread. One of my old churches has A NEW DAY program which intends to collect all of your time and money to plant churches following the same WORKS pattern. However, Hebrews mentions Joshua in the context of your thread:

Heb. 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb. 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb. 4:8 For if Jesus [Joshua] had given them REST, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb. 4:9 There remaineth therefore a REST to the people of God.
Heb. 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his OWN works, as God did from his.

Our rest now is katapauo which means "whatever you are doing to lade burdens on people JUST STOP IT.

 
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Donnie
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Re: The OT and Law Are History

June 20 2016, 4:09 AM 

Scripture,

This is a great outline of how we should study the Old Testament -- the major divisions: the Pentateuch, the prophets, the psalms and other literature, etc. Hopefully, this thread will help us better understand the expression "the law" -- frequently mentioned in both O.T. and N.T. (There appears to be so many different, specific laws identified in the Old Testament, e.g., "the law of the burnt offering," etc.)

You may already have this in mind: that in our study of "the law vs. grace," we will be able to contrast "the law of Moses," referenced not only in the Old Testament but also in the New Testament, and the "the law of Christ" referenced in Galatians 6:2.

Thanks for the great message above. [Great "moderating" job regarding the comment about "the cross (which Scrip, Donnie, and Ken now loathe)." Cool. happy.gif]

 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: The OT and Law Are History

June 20 2016, 1:56 PM 

Scripture notes: I would divide the Law [Genesis through Deuteronomy] as "tribal law." Joshua and Judges stand out as conquest and low level secular law. The books of Samuel through 2 Chronicles show the futility of hierarchical religious government--which suggests another age is coming with a true ruler, such as the Christ.

The major and minor prophets shows God working in history, and his pronouncement of judgment on governments, and the need for believers and prophets to sacrifice their lives and fortunes for Truth. There is a growth of awareness of other people than the tribal individuals as Elijah and Elisha become regional prophets, and eventually the major prophets are known through the world as the Babylonians captivity begins.


Scripture proves that we can still fit all of the clergy who understands that statement on an old Joy Buss.

Scripture says: 2 Chronicles show the futility of hierarchical religious government--which suggests another age is coming with a true ruler, such as the Christ.

I know of no present professor or preacher who does not say say that
Dianna has mentioned Burton Coffman who is the only person living or dead who grasps that God didn't command that to which numerous passages says that Go ABANDONED them "because of transgression." I know of no one who understands the "transgression" or who does not attend University Workshops (Church of Christ and the NACC) using the EXODUS as a PATTERN where according to Shelly "you can be a greater-than Moses" or even Jesus Christ.

Eph. 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the HOUSEHOLD of God;
Eph. 2:20 And are built upon [Educated by] the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


If you build performance worship on the Jacob-cursed and God-abandoned Levites you CANNOT be part of the houshold of God.

1Tim. 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God,
the pillar and ground of THE TRUTH.


THE TRUTH is THE WORD, Logos or Regulative Principle which OUTLAWS any "self-authored" songs or sermons using personal references to AID the Word including singing, playing instruments or acting.

That is why according to Amos 8 and Revelation 18 God have been their "and will not pass by again" never, ever: the musical prophecy John calls sorcery is removed from the HOUSHOLD OF GOD at the same time Jesus visits to remove the LAMPS which like the Menoroh was symbolic of the seven spirits OF God all devoted to teaching the Word. Isaiah 11:1-4.

 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
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Re: The OT and Law Are History

June 20 2016, 1:59 PM 

Donnie's statement about LAW and GRACE needs expansion: there are several terms which define the two.

 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
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Re: The OT and Law Are History

June 20 2016, 6:58 PM 

There is no historic Scholar who did not know that the Law of Moses was added because of transgression: This law went a long way in protecting the poor from the rich and famous. It legislated against the lawless and had no intention or effect on the human spirit or conscience. The festivals now used as patterns for "worship authorization" were for muster-aged males to keep them prepared to go to battle. Older males, women or children were not required to attend and most never did. The elders "fired" God and demanded a king so they could win battles and "worship like the nations" meaning Gentiles. God gave them their wish but declared hands-off and would not save them from the captivity and death sentence imposed because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.

On the Psalms. The Argument Prefixed by Hippolytus, Bishop of Rome, to His Exposition of the Psalms.

http://www.piney.com/FathHippoFragments.html

On: The book of Psalms contains new doctrine after the law of Moses.
And after the writing of Moses, it is the second book of doctrine.
Now, after the death of Moses and Joshua, and after the judges, arose David,
who was deemed worthy of bearing the name of father of the Saviour himself;

and he first gave to the Hebrews a new style of psalmody, by which he abrogates the ordinances established by Moses with respect to sacrifices, and introduces the new hymn and a new style of jubilant praise in the worship of God; and throughout his whole ministry he teaches very many other things that went beyond the law of Moses. 67


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.63.180.96 on Jun 20, 2016 7:03 PM


 
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Scripture
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Re: The OT and Law Are History

June 21 2016, 6:59 PM 

It's so inspiring to place the Old Testament under the lens of Christ. In my own feeble way I have tried to understand the relationship between law and grace.

"So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good." Romans 7:12. Paul.

"And sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind. For apart from the law sin is dead." Romans 7:8.

The commandments give information important to living a holy life. They in themselves do not make a person a sinner, but identify when a person sins. That is, for example, the commandment not to bear false witness. Following this commandment, even with its New Testament expression, is the way of life holy and just and good. Sinfulness derives not from external commands but from a selfish and jerk-like character. The new birth is supposed to deliver us from our own selfishness.

However, taking the commandments superficially without belief in Christ and faith toward God, simply reminds someone how sinful they are. This was no doubt the problem with many Pharisees during Jesus' lifetime, who equated faithfulness to God simply on how well they kept the commandments. It is possible, for example, to never bear false witness, yet never do anything to help a neighbor or a brother.

Law regulates outward behavior, but Jesus centered more on the inner spirituality. "These people honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. They worship in vain, teaching as doctrines, the commands of men." Matthew 15:8-9. It is possible to keep all God's legal commands, for example the New Testament expression of each of the ten commandments, and yet ignore the poor and imprisoned. See Matthew 25:31-46 for Jesus' description where we must go beyond just not violating a moral commandment. We must reach out to the poor and imprisoned.

Fear of God for not keeping His commandments may be a start for Christian behavior, but if that is as far as a convert can go, it may present him with "producing in 'me' coveting of every kind." Perhaps Paul has in mind that coveting never changes the heart, but on recognizing the gift of Christ, we are brought to true repentance: "God's kindness is intended to lead 'you' to repentance." Romans 2:4. Christ's offering brings us from covetousness to being generous in our gifts to other--just the opposite of covetousness.

What can you contribute to this discussion? Maybe some of our quiet readers can help us on this.

 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
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Re: The OT and Law Are History

June 21 2016, 7:21 PM 

I am not a psychologist but I truly believe that the outrageous panic which centered around the year 2000 (maybe the last Jubilee) flows from a fear or maybe a certainty that the people have no confidence or assurance and cannot REST from their own works. Even progressives want to impose rituals under the law simply because favorite words are mentioned.

I don't believe that Jesus tells us to sell every thing but if you CLAIM that you keep the law perfectly then Jesus will hand you another one. The only meaning of legalism in the Greek texts point to rhetorical, musical or performance crafts: you have to have talent, you have to practice for years following exact laws, you have to rehearse all week, you have to perform as the "worship team" and you have to be judged based on your appearance, the color of your tie, the extrusions on the lady singers and their performance.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
James 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


If you have ANY love you would not self-author songs and sermons and SELL them to widows and honest working people. If you were a MINISTER you would be a SERVANT and Paul instructed Timothy and everyone to WORK so that he could minister and not be MINISTERED TO.

Jesus marked Him self with the word SPEAK and the devil with the word DO. Sabbath or REST never meant a day of worship defined as BODY WORSHIP.

 
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Ken Sublett
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Joe Shulam Jewish Church

June 29 2016, 2:39 PM 

Joseph Shulam has been supported by Lipscomb, North Boulevard Church of Christ and others. He is a messianic Jew: that means that the NEW COVENANT is the OLD COVENANT with Gentiles still able to "buy in." He claims that Jerusalem and the Law are the PATTERN for New Testament Worship. Many apostate preachers till use the CURSE imposed upon the Jews as the commanded example especially for a top-down organization and the TITHE to support their new Temple-States. You have to denounce Christ as the Messiah to both Jews and Gentiles and accuse all of the New Testament with supporting anti-Jewish dogmas.

All of the MUSIC FABLES are based on even refuting the system of the God-abandoned Jews.

[linked image]

The Epistle of Barnabas and the Lord's Day

http://www.piney.com/FathEpBarna.html



 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
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Re: Joe Shulam Jewish Church

July 9 2016, 9:57 PM 

The Law and Prophets and a few Psalms are just one side of the story. The Law and Prophets and a few Psalms speak of Messiah and the REST that he brings to believers.

A prophecy is made about the virgin birth.
That prophecy is fulfilled in the Birth of Jesus.
The Prophecy is not "destroyed" but fulfilled.
We never expect to see another Jesus even thought I know some who claim that they are THE Authoritative Teacher.

Without understanding the nature of the Law and the Laws of the Monarchy it is pretty difficult to understand the New Testament.

Paul is a virtual commentary on the Old Testament and pagan literature: if you don't understand the QUESTION it is pretty hard to understand the answer

Jesus spoke specificially of the Law and Prophets: The Law does not speak of a Temple or the Laws of the Monarchy which VIOLATED Moses.

Ceremonial washings are important to understand because people continue that practice which makes the body clean but has no effect on the spirit or conscience. Of Legalism promoted by LU as Messianic Judaism, Peter said:

Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren,
.....that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things,
.....from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Acts 13:40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you,
.....which is spoken of in the PROPHETS;


Isaiah 1 is very similar to Mark 16.

If all of the law is still in effect it COULD NOT SAVE you: it could not give one A holy spirit or A good conscience. If you say that Messianic Jews keep the Law of Moses then they have fallen from grace along with anyone who supports them

Matt. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the LAW, or the PROPHETS:
.....I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


ADIMPLEO to fulfil (as a promise, prediction, duty “legem Christi,” ib. Gal. 6, 2: [2] Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ
“Gratia vobis et pax adimpleatur,” be made full, perfect

plēr-oō , render, pay in full, o be fulfilled, of prophecy, Ev.Matt.1.22, Ev.Jo.13.18.

Matt. 1:20 But while he thought on these things,
.....behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream,
.....saying, Joseph, thou son of David,
.....fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife:
.....for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Matt. 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son,
.....and thou shalt call his name JESUS:
.....for he shall save his people from their sins.
Matt. 1:22 Now all this was done,
.....that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,


When Jesus was born the prophecy has been fulfilled and is no longer in effect. No one can burn infants or goats with David's instrumental noise. No one can look for the Messiah to come and set up a worldly kingdom: He has established His SPIRITUAL kingdom.

SOP and PSALLO are both MARKS and invite the devil to enter into you..

John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen:
.....but that the scripture may be fulfilled,
.....He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his HEEL against me.
John 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass,
.....ye may believe that I am he.
John 13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you,
.....He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me;
.....and he that receiveth ME receiveth him that sent me


The prophecy is still there but Judas as the Familiar Friend has come and gone. Therefore, that prophecy has been NAILED to the cross to the sound of Jews making mocking music.

Jesus didn't command KEEPING OF THE LAW but of what HE commanded in the Prophets and Apostles.

The Law of Moses would not be ripped up: Jesus built a SCHOOL OF THE WORD: One does not practice animal sacrifices when one learns that God never COMMANDED animal slaughter or burnt offerings.

Because the Jews refused to HEAR the Word of God, Moses prophesied of another prophet like me who would be heard. When the prophecy is fulfilled then it no longer prophesies of a future prophet.

The Law of Moses and the Prophets excluding the record of the Scribes whom the prophets say lied and Jesus who called them hypocrites: preachers, singers or instrument players.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them,
.....These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you,
..... that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses,
..... and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.


That logically excludes the monarchy which rejected God and the Law of Moses because God had abandoned them to worship the starry host on their way back to Sumer and Babylon.

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth [used of National Judaism] shall pass away:
.....but my words shall not pass away.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you,
.....That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death,
.....till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.


The city and up to a million Jews were burned in hell just outside of Jerusalem because they REFUSED to become Christians. Why would God allow a perfectly good "worship center" and a huge staff of ministers to be BURNED WITH FIRE?

Rev. 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city,
.....which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt,
..... where also our Lord was crucified.


 
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Kenneth Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
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Set A Senior Preaching Pastor Over Us

July 17 2016, 9:45 PM 

It is of BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS that you may not be able to find the Kingdom in these last days:

Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican


Jesus referenced Isaiah 29 and Ezekiel 33 to MARK the Scribes and Pharisees as hypocrites: The Spirit OF Christ named performance preachers for hire, singers or instrument players. The "Progressives" like the Pharisees make long prayers or HYMNS among the Greeks and make up their own commandments so that they could deliberately make people dumb about God's will and fleece the widows.

Therefore, for the tiny flock of lost sheep who can hear Jesus the Son as the ONLY One who can Reveal the Father: He hides in plain sight from the wise, sophists: speakers, singers or instrument players. The speakers, singers and instrument players, as at Mount Sinai, they that they are WONDERS but Paul says that the are lying wonders and a laughingstock to anyone with ears and eyes.

ALL of those LYING IN WAIT TO DECEIVE Claim that they are exercising Unity in Diversity and are marked as strongly deluded. They use DAVID and the curse of the sacrificial system to claim that "A" spirit told them that God commands "instrumental praise" (their dumb instruments must be idols) and we know that the only personified spirit is Apollon who is the SAME God as "worshiping the starry host" to whom God abandoned the Civil-Military-Clergy Complex while He hid and Quarantined the common people to hold SCHOOL as refreshment while the clergy PROFANED the Sabbath with impunity because they were now a GENTILE nation.

1Sam. 8:4 Then all the ELDERS of Israel gathered themselves together,
and came to Samuel unto Ramah, [ACU=a height (as a seat of idolatry):]
1Sam. 8:5 And said unto him,
.....Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways:
.....now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.

h8199.shaphat, shaw-fat´; a primitive root; to judge, i.e. pronounce sentence (for or against); by implication, to vindicate or punish; by extenssion, to govern; passively, to litigate (literally or figuratively):—+ avenge, x that condemn, contend, defend, execute (judgment), (be a) judge(-ment), x needs, plead, reason, rule.

1Sam. 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said,
.....Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
1Sam. 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel,
.....Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee:
.....for they have not rejected thee,
.....but they have rejected me,
.....that I should not reign over them.
1Sam. 8:8 According to all the works which they have done
.....since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day,
.....wherewith they have forsaken me,
.....and served other gods,
.....so do they also unto thee.
1Sam. 8:9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice:
.....howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them,
.....and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
1Sam. 8:10 And Samuel told all the words of the LORD
.....unto the people that asked of him a king.
1Sam. 8:11 And he said,
.....This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you:
.....He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots,
.....and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.
1Sam. 8:12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties;
.....and will set them to ear his ground,
.....and to reap his harvest,
.....and to make his instruments of war,
.....and instruments of his chariots. [musical]
1Sam. 8:13 And he will take your daughters
.....to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.
1Sam. 8:14 And he will
.....take your fields,
.....and your vineyards,
.....and your oliveyards,
.....even the best of them,
avnd give them to his servants.
1Sam. 8:15 And he will
.....take the tenth of your seed,
vand of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.
1Sam. 8:16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants,
.....and your goodliest young men, and your asses,
.....and put them to his work.
1Sam. 8:17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.
1Sam. 8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day
.....because of your king which ye shall have chosen you;
.....nd the LORD will NOT hear you in that day.
1Sam. 8:19 Nevertheless
.....the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel;
.....and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;
1Sam. 8:20 That we also may be like all the nations;
.....and that our king may judge us,
.....and go out before us, and fight our battles.
1Sam. 8:21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people,
.....and he rehearsed them in the ears of the LORD.
1Sam. 8:22 And the LORD said to Samuel,
.....Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king.
.....And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city


This is the PATTERN for most denominations and the new Progressive Denomination headed by Jay Guin. That's because the MASSES are excluded in all Spiritual Covenants made with the PEOPLE.

1Kings 6:13 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel.

The Populus people, opp. to the Senate, in the formula senatu opposite the PLEBS: The great mass, the multitude: With accessory notion of contempt, the populace, the lower class or order, crowd, throng, great number of persons or things

The WEAK are silenced in Romans 15 so that the Word could be taught: in-firmus , weak in mind or character, superstitious, pusillanimous, inconstant, light-minded: very uncertain, not to be depended on2. Weak-mindedly, superstitiously

The "Progressives" who are Post-Biblical, Post-Christ as Head people claim that the WEAK are the ignorant, southern, rednecked ANTI-instrumentalists. They have declared that the rare LITTLE FLOCK has lost its protection and needs to have the AXE taken on their position AND their property. As usual, Jesus as Master and ONLY Teacher has them in sore-derision and they do not know that all of the angels in heaven are having a Hee-Haw.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.63.180.96 on Jul 18, 2016 9:53 AM


 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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