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Did Christ Authorize a Hired Clergy?

August 1 2016 at 6:16 PM
Ken Sublett  (Login Ken.Sublett)
from IP address

Dianne has asked the question about the modern role of preachers hired to effectively dominate an established congregation. We have posted some of the Biblical and historic opinions scattered throughout other threads.

History will show that all discord and inability of disciples to assemble together as "students" of the Word has always originated with what they call "located evangelists" or "located missionaries."

The problem arises from the engrained tradition of the definition of "church" and of "worship."

Universities holding Elder's meetings with non-elders doing the teaching and classes are held about negotiating a salary and comparative prices throughout the priesthood.

Even of men with supernatural power to confirm their message the first commission defined by Jesus was. Prophecy involved a tiny remnant still living in the land who had not "bowed go Baal."

Jesus nether preached the gospel of salvation to everyone but the Gospel OF the Kingdom or Church. That kingdom is within the little flock and you will never be able to count them and gloat over them. Nor will they come to religious observations because the kingdom and its king will not be there.

Matt. 10:6 But go rather to the LOST SHEEP of the house of Israel.
Matt. 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matt. 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Matt. 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
Matt. 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
Matt. 10:11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
Matt. 10:12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
Matt. 10:13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
Matt. 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Matt. 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

In looking for LOST SHEEP one does not attempt to CAMP OUT and Entertain Goats. Those OF the World or "earth born" are not enterested and however hard and legalistically you work at programs their conscience or spirit will never be holy or pure unless they "glady receive the Word and want to be baptized." That is the MARK which also condemns the world or those who are not suitable for baptism such as those baptized with wind (spirit) and fire.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Aug 1, 2016 6:33 PM

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Re: Did Christ Authorize a Hired Clergy?

August 1 2016, 11:50 PM 

"John is not sending his missionaries to the church in order to have the church care for them... Diotrephes loves to be first, to be considered the leader. He wants to be a boss, a dictator, a lord of all the rest, instead of letting the congregation be the "mistress" who manages all her affairs as chosen to do so by the Lord." (Lenski).

Any church ministered to by a top gun rather than by a hired hand cannot be said to be a Restoration Movement church or a New Testament church. Those whom Diotrephes were able to bully shared with him in his mortal guilt.

"Some twenty-five or thirty years ago when we had about two hundred preachers in the state of Kentucky, I took pains to find out in regard to those whom I did not know personally how many of them were the sons of wealthy men, not millionaires, but such men as pass in rural sections as rich men. Out of all that number there were only two that were rich men's sons-one in a hundred. That tells the story in regard to Kentucky. On another occasion when chapel was more largely attended than it is today I called upon all students whose expenses at college were being paid by their parents to stand, and out of nearly a hundred only nine stood up. That showed that not only was the preaching done by the poor, but it was the sons of the poor that were preparing to be the next generation of preachers. This has been the case all the way back to the beginning. So we can say of this as the Episcopalians so often say in their prayerbook of another subject, "As it was from the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end."

Any young man who declines preparing himself for the ministry for this reason is not fit to enter upon it.

And to the extent that the anticipation of poverty keeps men out of the ministry
it keeps out those who would be an encumbrance, a dead weight, and a disadvantage.

They are not fit to go into the pulpit who are controlled by this consideration. This consideration proves a blessing to the church in keeping out of the ministry those who would only be an encumbrance.

It also enables the church to gather the best material to make preachers of men--who have the spirit that animated the Lord and the apostles, who were not going into the ministry for the purpose of earthly gain or for any kind of selfish consideration, but for the love of Christ and fallen, wretched humanity.

If the ministry that we have were made up more largely of men of the latter description the church would be stronger than it is today. And if it could easily cast out of itself all those of the other class, the reduction in numbers would be an increase in power. J. W. McGarvey President The College of the Bible

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Re: Did Christ Authorize a Hired Clergy?

August 2 2016, 12:55 PM 

James F. Poole undoubtedly a student of Calvin as were the Campbells wrote:

As far back as the Old School or Primitive Baptist can trace their history they have been guided by one rule only; they must have a "Thus sayeth the Lord" for any and all doctrine and practice. A doctrine or a practice without a supporting text from Scripture is as unwelcome among the old order of Baptists as Egyptian lice.

There is no Scriptural support for the practice of hiring a man (or woman) to preach the gospel of free grace. It is the purpose of this article to establish that,

1) our early churches did not condone such a practice and,

2) neither have any orderly churches of the old order since. Preaching for pay is as foreign to the church Jesus built as are all other carnal practices of men not commanded by the Word of God.

We are reminded of a sister from years past that was ask by an acquaintance if she sent her children to Sunday school since the Old School Baptist Church where she attended had no such accommodations. "Heavens no!" replied the sister; "I had sooner send my children out to steal hen eggs as to send them to a Sunday school." Upon serious reflection we conclude the sister answered honestly, if unwisely. The old order of Baptists are no friends to these modern inventions of greedy religion.

The first recorded account in the Bible instructions relative to preaching the gospel came from the lips of our dear Lord Himself. The entire 10th chapter of the book of Matthew contains the discourse. Jesus called His twelve disciples unto him and fully instructed them for their mission. The following is of particular interest for our topic:

"And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses. Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat (Matthew 10.7-10)." These are the words of the Master. He has spoken! It is a violation of the worst sort to deviate from His commands for the sake of filthy lucre or for security's sakez

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Did Christ Authorize a Hired Clergy?

August 2 2016, 3:58 PM 

Preaching for pay? "Give money to make poor pious youths learned clergy, or vain pretenders to erudition; and they pray that they may preach to you; yes, and pay them too.

Was there ever such a craft as priestcraft? No, it is the craftiest of all crafts. It is so crafty that it obtains by its craft the means to make craftsmen, and then it makes the deluded support them!" (Campbell, Alexander, Christian Baptist, Dec. 1, 1823, Vol. 1, p. 91).

"Those who lord it over the people will soon begin to destroy Them. The word Balaam means 'the destroyer of the people.' If we turn back to the history of this strange figure as recorded in the book of Numbers we find that which clarifies three passages in the New Testament where 'the error of Balaam' (Jude 11), 'the way of Balaam' (II Pet. 2:15) and 'the doctrine of Balaam' are discussed." (Barnhouse, D.G., Revelation, Zondervan, p. 54

"It is possible that some spiritual immaturity today may arise from other causes. It may be produced by a failure to provide an adequate program of Bible instruction for the whole church. It may be the result of indifference and lack of a real desire to know the rich things of the Word. Too often people have assumed that all the Bible should be as simple as kindergarten lessons. It that were true, it is doubtful if there would ever be such a thing as a full grown Christian. The usual Sunday morning scolding which the church receives for not doing this will only make the situation worse. (Applebury, p. 51)

Farb notes that Shamanism has its own revival because of the false notion that orthodox

religion must solve all of life's ills (marriage, children, drugs, bank account, broken auto, bad breath). Jubilee 99 will be over run by people solving marriage problems, Y2K problems, how to worship problems (Oh God, have mercy!) and on and on.

When our human scheme fails -- and they always fail -- the church throws up its hands and abandons its "post" where Jesus left it to deliver the Word "as it has been entrusted to you." When that happens a new leader with a magical solution is right there because --

"The revival of shamanism in the United States is probably symptomatic of the weakening of orthodox religion's ability to regulate social behavior and to maintain social values -- and of the lack of any stirring new philosophy or ethic to replace the vacuum left by traditional religions." (Farb, Peter, Man's Rise to Civilization, p. 182)

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John Calvin on Restoration of the Church of Christ

August 3 2016, 11:16 AM 

See John Calvin on the need for a Restoration Movement excluding professional preachers.

For where can I exert myself to better purpose or more honestly, where, too, in a matter at this time more necessary, than in attempting, according to my ability,

to aid the Church of Christ, whose claims it is unlawful in any instance to deny, and which is now in grievous distress, and in extreme danger?

I trust I have now clearly shown, as I proposed, that in correcting the corruption of the church, we have by no means been more urgent than the case demanded. Even those who blame us are aware of this, and, accordingly, they have recourse to another charge, namely, that the utmost we have gained by our interference has been to fill the Christian world, which was formerly at peace, with intestine discord --

that so far from any amendment appearing, things have gone on to worse -- that of those who have embraced our doctrine few have been made better, nay, that some have been emboldened, if not to greater, at least to more unrestrained licentiousness.

They object, moreover, that in our churches there is no discipline, no laws of abstinence, no exercises of humility; that the people, thrown loose from the yoke, riot with impunity in vicious courses.

Lastly, they throw upon us the odium of seizing on the property of ecclesiastics, asserting that our princes have made a rush upon it as if it had been lawful spoil; that in this way the church has been violently and shamefully plundered, and that now the patrimony of the church is possessed indiscriminately by those who, amid the uproar of contention, have usurped it without law or any proper title.

I, for my part, deny not that when impiety reigned, her kingdom was disturbed by us. But if, at the moment when the light of sound and pious doctrine beamed upon the world, all, as in duty bound, had spontaneously, and with ready mind, lent their aid, there would at the present day be no less peace and quietness in all the churches, (the kingdom of Christ flourishing), than in the days when Antichrist tyrannized.

Let those who, it is manifest, impede the course of truth, desist from waging war with Christ, and there will instantly be perfect concord;

or let them desist from throwing
upon us the blame of dissensions, which they themselves excite.

Those who speak in this way understand not that the restoration of the church is the work of God, and no more depends on the hopes and opinions of men, than the resurrection of the dead, or any other miracle of that description.


For what duties do they perform in return? In the same way as anciently, under the laws, those who served at the altar lived by the altar, "even so hath the Lord ordained, that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel" (1 Cor. 9:14).

These are Paul's words. Let them, then, show us that they are ministers of the gospel, and I will have no difficulty in conceding their right to stipend.

The ox must not be muzzled that treadeth out the corn [1 Cor. 9:9]. But is it not altogether at variance with reason that the ploughing oxen should starve, and the lazy asses be fed?

They will say, however, that they serve at the altar. I answer, that the priests under the law deserved maintenance, by ministering at an altar;

but that, as Paul declares, the case under the New Testament is different. And what are those altar services, for which they allege that maintenance is due to them?

Forsooth, that they may perform their masses and chant in churches, for example, partly labor to no purpose, and partly perpetrate sacrilege, thereby provoking the anger of God. See for what it is that they are alimented at the public expense!

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Re: John Calvin on Restoration of the Church of Christ

August 3 2016, 4:58 PM 

Clement of Alexandria, Stromata I

But he that speaks through books, consecrates himself before God, crying in writing thus:

Not for gain, not for vainglory, not to be vanquished by partiality, nor enslaved by fear nor elated by pleasure;

but only to reap the salvation of those who read, which he does, not at present participate in, but awaiting in expectation the recompense which will certainly be rendered by Him, who has promised to bestow on the labourers the reward that is meet.

But he who is enrolled in the number of men [Ps. li. 7-12.] ought not to desire recompense.
For he that vaunts his good services, receives glory as his reward.
And he who does any duty for the sake of recompense,
is he not held fast in the custom of the world, either as one who has done well, hastening to receive a reward, or as an evil-doer avoiding retribution?

We must, as far as we can, imitate the Lord. I And he will do so, who complies with the will of God, receiving freely, giving freely, and receiving as a worthy reward the citizenship itself.

"The hire of an harlot shall not come into the sanctuary," it is said: accordingly it was forbidden to bring to the altar the price of a dog. (male prostitute)

And in whomsoever the eye of the soul has been blinded by ill-nurture and teaching, let him advance to the true light, to the truth, which shows by writing the things that are unwritten. "Ye that thirst, go to the waters," [Isa. lv. 1] says Esaias, And "drink water from thine own vessels," [Prov. v. 15] Solomon exhorts. Accordingly in "The Laws," the philosopher who learned from the Hebrews, Plato, commands husbandmen

not to irrigate or take water from others, until they have first dug down in their own ground to what is called the virgin soil, and found it dry. For it is right to supply want, but it is not well to support laziness.

For Pythagoras said that,
"although it be agreeable to reason to take a share of a burden, it is not a duty to take it away."

Maybe someone will list a ROLE in the settled Congregation which demands anyone who lives in luxury off the meager income of widows and wager earners who NEVER gave tithes.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: John Calvin on Restoration of the Church of Christ

August 3 2016, 11:16 PM 

The Scribes and Pharisees wrote their own material and performed with long prayers or HYMNS among the Greek. They knew that Christ outlawed them SELLING or SPEAKING their own words. So, being POSTMODERN, they excluded God from their religious ceremonies and ATE UP the living of the widows. Jesus quotes from Isaiah 29 or Ezekiel 33 which defines a HYPOCRITE.

Ezek. 33:31 And they come unto thee
.....AS the people cometh,
.....and they sit before thee AS my people,
.....and they hear thy words,
.....BUT they will not do them:
.....FOR with their mouth they shew much love,
.....FOR their heart goeth after their covetousness.

Showing much LOVE while picking your pockets is:

Canticum a song in the Roman comedy, sung by one person, and accompanied by music and dancing; a monody, solo A song, in gen.: “chorus canticum Insonuit A singing tone in the delivery of an orator, like Neroniana,

h1215. betsa{, beh´-tsah; from 1214; plunder; by extension, gain (usually unjust):—covetousness, (dishonest) gain, lucre, profit.
h1214. batsa{, baw-tsah´; a primitive root to break off, i.e. (usually) plunder; figuratively, to finish, or (intransitively) stop:—(be) covet(-ous), cut (off), finish, fulfill, gain (greedily), get, be given to (covetousness), greedy, perform, be wounded

The Spirit OF Christ defined the Scribes and Pharisees as HYPOCRITES. Hypocrites are ACTORS or Performers. The Greeks understood that rhetoric and music was a LIE as "let's pretend"

When you hear this in a church near you: rhetoric, singing, playing instruments "passing the plate" Christ called them Hypocrites. The worst possible term to define the perverted character God found was:

Ezek. 33:32 And, lo, thou art unto them a very lovely song
.....of one that hath a pleasant voice,
.....and can play well on an instrument:

The MARK of the Paying Audience will always be true for those seeking hired performers in the name of God which proves their character:

for they hear thy words, but they do them not.

When this happens in your School turned into a Theatrical Institution this simply MARKS the fact, as in Amos 8, that God speaking through a prophet had been there and WILL NOT PASS BY THEIR AGAIN. The songs become HOWLING.

Ezek. 33:33 And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come,) then shall they know that a prophet hath been among them.

Without a CHAPTER pause, the Spirit of Christ brought the WORD (Dabar or Logos) as the Regulative principle outlawing what God has just defined as a MARK of the Shepherds who begin to fleece and eat the lambs.

Ezek. 34:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Ezek. 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds;
.....Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves!
.....should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

A flock is led to the FOOD and WATER of the Word only. A flock does not gather in a House Made with Human hands nor is it fed with the works of human imagination.

Ezek. 34:3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, kill them that are fed:
.....but ye feed not the flock.

Ezek. 34:4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken,
..... neither have ye brought again that which was driven away,
.....neither have ye SOUGHT that which was lost;
.....but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.

Jesus didn't send the LAMBS out to do EXTREME DISCIPLING Purpose Driven to psychological change their character. A Herald could not be a poet or a philosopher or song writer who by definition would REWRITE the "news" or gospel and charge for it on the receiving end. A Herald is a kerusso (SENT preacher) or a presbyter (elder-shepherd). Elders were defined to Titus as "already laboring to the point of exhaustion in preaching and teaching." Neither of these required an admission fee at a local "theater for performing arts." Early Bishops had wide authority because THEY as Shepherds WENT OUT and collected their own flock.

Ezek. 34:5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the of the FIELD, when they were scattered.

This proves that the shepherd does not KEEP HOUSE but is OUT with the flock in the FIELD.

Beasts are false shepherds turned wolves (lovers of boys) and they are out "tending" your flock and dragging them into his "synagogue of Satan."

bestĭa , ae, f. perh. akin to fera and to belua, 2. As a term of reproach (cf. belua and our beast): “mala tu es bestia,” Plaut. Bacch. 1, 1, 21; id. Poen. 5, 5, 13.—And, humorously, of the odor of the armpits (cf. ala and caper is CAPPELLA), Cat. 69, 8.—
II. Transf., as a constellation, the WOLF, Vitr. 9, 4 (7)
So of the SERPENT, Plaut. Poen. 5, 2, 75.—

The BEAST in Revelation is "A new style of music or a Satyric (cappella) Drama. The Serpent in the Garden was a musical enchanter. The Spirit OF Christ called him-her-it "a singing and harp-playing prostitute" who is anyone who sells anything provided by God. Paul called it CORRUPTING the Word.

Think of the most abominable thing you can think of. The feed and water for the flock is NEVER in the sheepfold or CHURCH HOUSE. A shepherd boasts about the most legalistic means to entice both sheep and goats from other folds to meet in HIS house extorting them by "laws of giving" or ththig. They gather together and the Shepherd pledged to lead to grass and water rehearses all week to OFFER THEM a WORSHIP SERVICE of their CHOICE. They go home "hungering for the Water of the Word and cannot find it" (Amos 8) because of singing and howling in the temple which normally would get them executed for being presumptious.

The Abomination in Deuteronomy 18 is:

Deut. 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer

A Charmer is an Abomination incantātor , ōris, m. n enchanter, wizard

Cantus A. Prophetic or oracular song: “veridicos Parcae coeperunt edere cantus,” Cat. 63 cf. Tib.
B. An incantation, charm, magic song, etc.: cantusque artesque magorum.
cantus e curru Lunam deducere tentat,” The Divina in Lectio-Divina is the Thessalian witch or hag who could control the moon and all of the "moon blood" of female-effeminate control Minervā, id est adversante et repugnante naturā, Cic. Off. 1, 31, 301: “sus Minervam (docet),” a stupid man will instruct a wise one,
2. With instruments, a playing, music: “in nervorum vocumque cantibus,” Cic. Tusc. 1, 2, 4; id. Rosc. Am. 46, 134: “citharae,” Hor. C. 3, 1, 20: “horribili stridebat tibia cantu,” [outlawed for the church in the wilderness] Cat. 64, 264: “querulae tibiae

Believe me and all of he Bible: they have the tastiest KoolAid in town.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Aug 3, 2016 11:52 PM

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No Acts to the PLAY so you don't PAY

August 4 2016, 3:58 PM 

We have heard the boast that since the elders recalled him for a second term that meant that he had the authority to make the changes he always wanted to make. However, if someone gives you stolen property you can keep it only in pseudo-Christianity.

The LAW is clearly defined because those who are truly led to be an evangelists must be willing to be an EXTREME discipler or "teaching that which has been taught." Jesus warned that speaking only the Word would get Him murdered and His evangelists with a GO BUTTON hated. That is God's way to MARK FOR AVOIDANCE. The Lost Spirits among the Jews were LOST and therefore not in Jerusalem so the evangelists was SENT out to FIND them. If they are not lost spirits even among the Gentiles then none of the heavy-handed legalism of time and money fleeced from the poor workers and already under heavy stress.

The Little Flock the Father gave for Jesus to collect would be identified: those who gladly received the word or invitation would respond by wanting to be baptized.

The Post-Biblical Progressives think that "the communion of the Holy Spirit" means that we are pals of a spirit person who COMMUNICATES to THEM but not to YOU. That means that YOU pay them to be able to hold communion with the Holy Spirit. We have noted that THE is not there and Holy Spirit means a Pure Mind.

However, the communion of HOLY SPIRIT is the WORD (regulaltive principle) which Jesus as the promised Comforter reveals or further appears to the Apostles to who His appearing was promised. Peter declares that the "perfected" word is not subject to private interpretation or further expounding. With further expounding Paul reminds us not to CORRUPT the Word meaning "selling learning at retail" when Jesus has done all of the teaching. The word also means adultery in the same sense that others less fortunate sold other parts of their bodies.

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter [TEXT], but of the spirit [MEANING OR DEFINITION]: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 2Co.3:6

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I SPEAK unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are life.
Gal. 6:6 Let HIM [singular] that is taught in the WORD communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

g2727. katecheo, kat-ay-kheh´-o; from 2596 and 2279; to sound down into the ears, i.e. (by implication) to indoctrinate (“catechize”) or (genitive case) to apprise of: — inform, instruct, teach.

Word, g3056 Logos: Regulative Principle. What God breathed into Jesus and Jesus SPOKE.

The apostle Paul wrote in Greek. The Greek text of that verse talks about “joining in, in all that is good/upright”. What did that refer to – really what was Paul talking about? For viewing Galatians 6:6 from the right angle, it is good to first consider how Paul lived and acted. This will make it easier to see what the correct translation might be.

• In Corinth, Paul worked, as a tent-maker. That was his occupation, see Acts 18:1–3. Those who carefully study all of 1 Corinthians 9, can see that Paul did not live at the cost of others, and how he noted, in that regard, “it were better for me to die than that any man should take this rejoicing from me”. –

• Even in Thessalonica, Paul supported himself, and so did his companions. 2 Thessalonians 3:8, “nor did we eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you” (ESV01).

• In Ephesus, it was the same. Acts 20 records how Paul, when he spoke to the elders from Ephesus, reminded them that they knew that he had always supported himself through manual work. He told those elders to copy his example in that regard.

So, what about Galatia – how did Paul act there? Did he ask the believers in that town to “share their goods” with him, as some bible-translators have made it seem?

It is true that sometimes when Paul was in prison or sick so that he could not work, he received aid from certain people. But, Galatians 6:6 has nothing to do with that. .

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SIGNS of Ministers Turned Masters of their GAME

August 5 2016, 11:28 AM 

Job 20:2 Therefore do my THOUGHTS cause ME to answer, and for this I make haste.
Job 20:3 I have heard the CHECK of my reproach, and the SPIRIT OF my UNDERSTANDING causeth me to answer.

Job knew that SPIRIT was not another people: that would make him ECSTATIC which C. Leonard Allen charges against God. Allen and LU and the rest of the band claim that being MAD or Outside of Self as the effect of wine, drugs or music really means that ONEself can be OUTofSelf and become a second and third Self.

H7307 rûach roo'-akh From H7306 ; wind; by resemblance BREATH,
that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation;
figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality;
by extension a region of the sky;
by resemblance spirit,
but only OF a rational being(including its expression and functions):—
air, anger, blast, BREATHE, X cool, courage, mind,
tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y

The Spirit OF Anger is not a person named "Anger." Spirit is the MENTAL DISPOSITION OF God which is ARTICULATED in the WORD, LOGOS or the Regulative Principle of the Universe and of the infinitely-tiny Little Flock which you cannot SEE, HEAR OF FLEECE.

Paul understood that but those STRONGLY DELUDED simply cannot grasp it:

.....Eph. 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit OF your MIND;

.....2Tim. 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit OF fear; but of power,
..... and of love, and [spirit] of a sound MIND.

Job 20:4 Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth,
Job 20:5 That the triumphing [singing-shouting] of the wicked is short,

.....Psa. 41:11 By this I know that thou favourest me,
..... because mine enemy doth not triumph over me.

.....h7445. rnanah, ren-aw-naw´; from 7442; a shout (for joy):—joyful (voice),
..... singing, triumphing;

.....This was OUTLAWED By Christ the Rock for the Church in the wilderness and Fulfilled by Judas when Jesus fed him the SOP or PSALLO word.

Exod 32:6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play

[linked image]

When God defined the Assembly or Synagogue or the Godly:

1Sam. 19:9 And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David PLAYED with his HAND

Num. 10:7 But when the congregation is to be gathered together, ye shall blow, but ye shall not SOUND an ALARM.

Paul connected the SOUNDS of musical INSTRUMENTS to signals of MAKING WAR.

[linked image]

Judg. 16:25 And it came to pass, when their hearts were merry, that they said, Call for Samson, that he may make us sport. And they called for Samson out of the prison house; and he made them SPORT: and they set him between the pillars.

THAT WHICH WAS UGLY AND VIOLENT IS EXACTLY WHAT CHRIST PROPHESIED IN PSALM 41 AND WHAT THE BABYLON MOTHER OF HARLOTS ATTEMPTS IN THE LAST DAYS. His-Her time or KAIROS is short explaining why so many are willing to remove CHRIST from the public confession at the same time the MUSICIANS (sorcerers) and the LAMPS or seven spirits OF knowledge is removed.

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laus , a funeral oration

gaudĭum “cum ratione animus movetur animi elationem,” exsulto (exult- ),: “in reliquis (orationibus) exsultavit audacius
“illa theatra (i. e. spectatores) exsultant,” 2. Of an orator or an oration, diffuse, prolix: “fiunt pro grandibus tumidi ... laetis corrupti, compositis

and the joy of the hypocrite [speaker, singer, instrument player] but for a moment?

Hypocrita delivering a performance by an actor by gestures. I. interpreter or expounder, Plays a part on the stage, an orator “epōn” Tim.Lex. s.v. rhapsōdoi; , pretender, dissembler, hypocrite, LXX Jb.34.30, 36.13, Ev.Matt.23.13, rhaptōn epeōn aoidoi” songstress, tuneful, musical, SONG OF THE EUNUCH
III. = eunoukhos, Hsch.; cf. doidos.

Suet. Nero 24 Of Nero: his departure he declared the whole province a free counry, and conferred upon the judges in the several games the freedom of Rome, with large sums of money. All these favours he proclaimed himself with his own voice, from the middle of the Stadium, during the solemnity of the Isthmian games.

Job 20:6 Though his excellency MOUNT up to the heavens, and his HEAD reach unto the clouds;

“ascendent sermones super cor tuum,” ib. Ezech. 38, 10.—

Ezekiel 38.10 Thus says the Lord Yahweh: It shall happen in that day, that things shall come into your mind, and you shall devise an evil device:

Evil devices are Machines or Thoughts of human imagination which God says is Evil. They are all made for burning.

The SINGERS MOCKING JESUS CLAIM TO LEAD YOU INTO THE PRESENCE OF "A" GOD: His name is Apollon-Abaddon identified by the Muses or Locusts or HIS musical worship team.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: SIGNS of Ministers Turned Masters of their GAME

August 6 2016, 6:45 PM 

Most of the "progressives" use Carl Ketcherside as their authority that we should all be UNITED. However, like the Campbells UNITY does not need to be forced if you simply obey the direct commands for holding an assembly. They would refuse to use Ketcherside on the Located Evangelists or Instrumental Music. While he hates division it is a fact that false SHEPHERDS allowed the WOLVES in to sow instrumental sectarianism

The restoration movement gained its early impetus because it appealed to the plain, hardy pioneers by its simplicity and freedom from ostentation. There were no musical instruments in the rude cabins of these settlers, and such instruments were associated with effeminate tastes. The idea of having them in the sacred worship was obnoxious.

The restoration was passing through the same throes as it was transformed from a rustic to an urban movement. As the original purpose of "uniting the Christians in all sects" receded, and a desire to "hold our own among the sects" became the chief objective, alterations began to be urged regardless of the feelings of the brethren. Three years after Peter Cartwright wrote the above, the first instrument of music was introduced into the worship of a restoration congregation. We think it will be interesting for our readers to know something about the personalities involved in this radical change, and of the results accruing from it.

In 1859, Dr. L. L. Pinkerton brought a melodeon into the meetinghouse at Midway, Kentucky.

The HIRELING over the objection of the elders INSTALLED the little noise maker. An elder and a slave removed it. Probably the melodian was lost and another was instantly installed over the objection of the elders. ALL discord come as punishment for HIRING someone who is not bright enough to know that the ONE-PIECE PATTERN is according to God and the Campbells A SCHOOL OF CHRIST. The act of worship after being qualified at baptism is to READ AND MUSE THE WORD OF GOD IN THE HEART NATURALLY.

There were vigorous protests which went unheeded. Dr. Pinkerton was always a controversial figure. One historian writes, "Throughout the eighteen-fifties and -sixties he was a thorn in the flesh not only of the strict constructionists, but of most of those who considered themselves progressive; but such was his evangelical ardor, the fervor of his piety, and the unselfishness of his service, that even his severest critics found it difficult not to love him." For all of these traits, it appears that Pinkerton was somewhat inflexible in his views and bent on having his way regardless of consequences. When he died on his sixty-third birthday, President James Garfield wrote of him, "He was a man of most positive and intense nature; his opinions were convictions."

"Among the scholars the lie prevails that "the evil Churches of Christ REMOVED the instruments simply because they wanted to upset those who IMPOSED them. Now, you cannot REMOVE any kind of performance "music" which never existed in those groups who were Apostolic: church built upon (educated by) the prophets and apostles both taught by the Spirit OF Christ.

On elders who are proven NOT APT he wrote:

"It is a common error in this degenerate age for men to reason that the duty of elders is to oversee and supervise the work, but they may hire another to do the work.
"They are willingly ignorant of the fact
"that their relationship to the flock in a governmental sense is expressed by the term bishop;
"but their relationship to the flock in a developmental sense is expressed by the term pastor.

"Now they would refuse to hire a man for the first, and claim to hire him only for the second. But it is the second which makes him a pastor, and not the first.

"Ask a hireling minister or "located evangelist" the difference between his position and that of the other sectarian pastors about him. His sole glib reply will be that he does not run or manage the church, but is under the elders.

"This has nothing to do with "pastorating." The overseeing or superintending is covered by the term bishop.

"The question is not about hiring bishops, but pastors! If a rancher hires a man to prepare feed and dispense it to his sheep, to visit the flock and lead it, has he not hired a shepherd?

"And if the work becomes too arduous and an associate is hired to assist, is he not an associate shepherd?

"Could these argue that they were not shepherds because they worked under supervision of the rancher to whom the sheep belonged, and were subject to him as an overseer?

Supervising is the work of bishops,
feeding the flock is the work of pastors.

"Just because one is not hired to supervise or govern is no sign he is not hired to pastorate. The whole truth is that the very argument of the hireling ministers is a candid admission that they are "pastors" and "associate pastors." (That they All May Be One, Carl Ketcherside, p. 9)

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Aug 6, 2016 7:04 PM

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Re: Did Christ Authorize a Hired Clergy?

August 7 2016, 11:02 AM 

I listened to a bit of a TV sermon this morning which is typical of men who have a right to think that NOT APT elders hired him to go beyond the direct command to PREACH the Word by READING the Word (Regulative principle) for Comfort and Doctrine. A person whom the elders HIRE to feed the flock is THE meaning of a HIRELING. Those who "see godliness as a means of financial gain" have no option: Jude says that they are Purpose Driven.

Zech. 11:10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
Zech. 11:11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
Zech. 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
Zech. 11:13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
Zech. 11:14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
Zech. 11:15 And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.

Judas was the Goat Bishop and His BAG was always attached to a flute case. The prophecy was that Judas would attempt to alarm or triump over Jesus (vocal or instrumental noise) but Jesus did not remain dead. When Jesus fed Judas the SOP (the Psallo meaning) the devil came into Judas and he hung himself and twisted in the wind until his guts drop out. Musical people attempting to SILENCE Jesus will not get off as easy.

Here are the INSTRUMENTS of the FOOLISH SHEPHERD ignoring Paul's warning to let a WOLF (Apollon) elder buy influence.

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Jacob cursed the Levites and warned not to enter into the Levite covenant nor to attend their synagogues. They should wait for SHILOH or REST from any and all religious observations FOR SALE.

Zech. 11:16 For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. John 10:11
Paul commanded Timothy to WORK so that he could be a MINISTER by feeding the poor out looking for a day's wages.

But he that is an hireling (false worker), and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. John 10:12 Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened. Zechariah 11:17

Hirelings LEAVE or desert the FLOCK when they deprive them of the only FOOD which God supplies: we must EAT and DRINK the Word because it is SPIRIT and LIFE. Hirfelings EAT UP the Widow's livilhood in exchange for long prayers or HYMNS in the greek world.

lŭpus , talk of the devil, and he appears, to intrust sheep to a wolf, canes, of one who watches his opportunity [Opportunity is KAIROS] to be unobserved, as the wolf does not care whether the number of the sheep is right or not, LUKOS UNNATURAL LOVE, LIVE BY RAPINE, nickname of paiderastai, AP12.250 (Strat.), cf. Pl.Phdr. 241d GRACE as a favor to another man.

The connection of Religious Music or self-exhibition has no historical exception: that is why up to half of the flock flee never looking back as commanded.

A Shepherd is meek and mild and gentle and makes certain that the lambs are not led to thesounds of RUSHING WATERS. A good shepherd does not let another shepherd let the WOLVES (boy lovers) into the flock.

God through Jesus Christ HAS provided all of the food and drink and the Church for REST is a sheepfold or an "unbrellicum" or a Safe House. A shephard FEEDS the flock: the flock does not feed the shepherd.

Sheepfolds are IN the world but they are not OF the World. Lambs are protected from the World View because they are not OF the World.

Both Amos and Stephen remind the Jews that they had been saved by Grace but they fell back into instrumental-trinitarian-idolatry. God abandoned them to worship the starry host and the MUSIC was the MARK that the princes were princesses and would neither feed nor protect the flock. The penalty-then and now-is that God sends the people into captivity and death.

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This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Aug 7, 2016 2:26 PM

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Re: Did Christ Authorize a Hired Clergy?

September 30 2016, 7:32 PM 

One method preachers use to unseat elders is to call in church growth experts, get them to suggest elders should serve no more than six years, and remove those that have been elders more than six years, and add new ones.

Then the preacher can use his "office" to get his way, such as introduce innovations gradually.

But often this backfires, and the new elders oust him.

Then the elders that survive the preachers, remove the need to resign in six years.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Did Christ Authorize a Hired Clergy?

October 1 2016, 12:39 PM 

It is amazing how many such "pastor persons" have been able to unseat deacons. My old "investment" in Murfreesboro has a host of MINISTERS (deacons and deaconesses) some on the STIFF.

THEIR deacons are on rotating call to take care of any physical problem. David Young uses his broken scooter as an example of the deacons new demotion. That may have been upgraded to a motorcycle. Under the Law if a priest or Levite needed a new chariot or horse the GOT A JOB and bought one.

Paul defines the elders as THE Pastor-Teachers and job one is to defrock any cunning craftsman or SOPHISTS: they are self-authoring speakers, singers or instrument players. They are DEFROCKED (or De Stolaed) says Jesus as HOLY (wholly) SPIRIT through Paul because THEY ARE LYING IN WAIT TO DECEIVE.

They are LYING about Scripture: the Greeks defined rhetoric, singing or playing instruments as LYING because they could not resist REWRITING the message from a King by a Herald (preacher) to say a field commander.

They are also LYING in the sense of LURKING. The New Kairos Church Planting Plot really means like the demons son of Zeus slinking around finding the right time (kairos) to slip a daggar in your back or steal your property.

2Chr. 20:22 And when they began to sing and to praise, the LORD set ambushments against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir, which were come against Judah; and they were smitten.

THEY think that they are the SMITERS instead of SMITTEN and gloat about removing the old Bible Centereds.

Deacons are the GOD-ORDAINED ministers and the word includes "teaching." Men who usurp ALL authority from not APT elders are not ministers (servant) but masters and rejecting the pattern of Jesus they are ANTICHRISTS.

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Disney Tales

October 2 2016, 2:01 PM 

Are you making this up Scripture, or can you give an example?

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Disney Tales

October 2 2016, 5:52 PM

Ordination of New Elders and Deacons
Administrative Elder - Jerry Yonker;
Deacon - Todd Veenhuis
Pastoral Elders - Dave Hitt; Gene & Rosemary Dykema

Maybe I don't understand the format, but I'm wondering about Rosemary being an elder[?] at Oak Hills (Community) Church.

Can someone verify?

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Re: Disney Tales

October 3 2016, 8:38 AM 

This is not hypothetical, since it occurred in a Nashville church.

At least one of the ousted elders had been an elder for 20 years more or less and was ousted after the preacher garnered a study from Harding University that said the elders had been in power too long--I suppose one of those conflict resolution groups or a church growth specialist group. It must have recommended that elders were to serve six years, and then go.

The new elders were installed and then the preacher go on bad sorts with either the congregation or the new elders, or both, and he left "for personal reasons." His departure came, more than coincidentally I think, after the elders had studied and approved instrumental music in a study group on Sunday nights. I read into this as a congregational backlash, or some of the new elders not even liking it.

I had heard this preacher saying that his office should be used a leverage and power to get what he wants. I think the elders may have been dealing with an opportunistic or narcissistic preacher who was leveraging his position against entrenched elder authority. However, that authority must have run deeper than he realized, both into the congregation, and well as into the experience and pedigree even of the new elders.

The elders announced that they were going to do away with the six year rule (very likely) and that no small groups were to be allowed in that church.

Many of the churches in the Nashville area are consolidating around two groups, possibly. Those that like Harding U, and some of these that like Freed Hardeman. Many of long term Lipscomb alumni are sending their children to Freed Hardeman, others to Harding. Lipscomb U. is more or less disowned now by the more careful congregations in the Nashville area.

A former big name preacher for this church has his grandchildren going to Freed Hardeman, and his children are supporting that move.

Notice that I use the words "power", "ousted", "conflict", "backlash", "narcissistic", "elder authority", "six year rule", and "installed." All these words cast a dark shadow around the health of the Nashville churches.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Disney Tales

October 3 2016, 11:57 AM 

Now, I know how to install a commode but I don't know how to INSTALL an elder. Do you plug him in, screw him in or nail him in. A local preacher presumed the authority to INSTALL new elders: when he laid his hands on one of them he PASSED OUT.

Lipscomb has had its problem with the head of the Bible department getting caught in the wrong bed. Another board member and elder picked on a prostitute who happened to be a cop. The gender confusion has been a complaint often voiced in forums.

When the new President came in the statement was to decide whether LU should remain connected to Churches of Christ. This is like getting new church property well financed and DECIDING whether we want to BE what we collected the monies for. We may want to bond with the denominations and "fellership" and therefore endorse preachers who lie about Scripture. Spiritual Formation including Lectio-Divina and Ignatian Mediations by taking the males to a MONK hideaway is the mark of Mother Goddess now in charge. Lection-Divina in the Scriptures means Reading a portion of Divine Revelation. Lectio-Divina means using A word or phrase NOT for content: then you meditate on it until a SPIRIT tells you what Jesus' Spirit might have said IF he had a degree from LU. The DIVINA was the Moon Goddess and the feminists demand that Moon Blood waft from the pulpit: this was supposed to have power so that males treat women just as men treated the EARTH as goddess. It's all in the book.

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A Heretic or Sectarian is defined in Romans 15 as SELF-PLEASURE which includes SELF-WILL. A heretic or sectarian, say the preachers, means the right to choose. However, they never got past sermon-outlines 101. A Heretic or Sectarian is one who CHOOSES to take YOUR stuff for his own uses. In sacrificial systems the instrumentalists who made the "lambs dumb before the slaughter" was called a PARASITE. The Heretic was the priest who lifted up the lambs to cut their throats.

The papers coming out of the Lipscomb Staff proves the "strong delusion" pattern so that they CANNOT write the truth in any of their papers. They often cherry pick the Restoration writers but the REST of the story proves that they are deliberately blinded. No one could be that Bible Illiterate. NO ONE has the right to BUY or SELL at Lipscomb who has not taken the MARK: the Beast or Therion defines beastly, goat (cappella) in a New Style of Music or Satyric Drama. I have reviewed many of the lectures and they are all pre-recorded to appease the female and feminists now ruling as Christ promised in Isaiah 3.

Areskos or Placeo means to decide to do things that PLEASE the people. Paul would exclude the word which includes CREATING SPIRITUAL EXCITEMENT which made the one-piece pattern impossible: "to use one mind and one mouth to speak that which is WRITTEN for our LEARNING." Or "Scripture for our comfort." This is the paraklete word where Jesus still comforts us with His Words.

So, the Bible treats them as ROBBERS OF TEMPLES.

Lipscomb and others have switched from Bible to THEOLOGY which depends on HISTORY for its dogma.

This is PROPHETIC STUFF: Apollon or Abaddon was one of the "sun" gods among the Greeks and gave his name to the SERVICE of the instrumental Levites. He has been unleashed from "hell" along with the Muses: singers or instrument players named LOCUSTS in the literature. The personified SPIRITUS is Apollon and friends. Apollon is the LEADER of the muses or his musical worship team. The muses with all self-exhibitionists were the SHEPHERDESSES and dirty prostitutes. That's selling any of your body parts in the name of a Holy God Who delivered all of the songs and sermons and commanded SPEAK or READ as the only mark of not being neutered: Paul hoped that the knife would slip and they would be cut off or castrated.

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ALL of them dismiss the Scriptures as proven by taking a verse or part of a verse and then building a sermon which has little to do even with the tidbit read by the BIBLE READING ACT. The Word or Logos is the Regulative Principle and it EXCLUDES any self-willed rhetoric, singing, playing, acting, dancing, waving, clapping, shouting, hugging or kissing.

The apostates call churches of Christ HISTORYLESS meaning they do not DEPEND on tradition and the decision of church councils. However, there is no church council which authorizes writing sermons, singing, playing instruments or any of the false teachings stolen from book writers who have NEVER read true history. Can there be any hope for anyone who thinks they can STUDY GOD?

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Oct 3, 2016 12:02 PM

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Did Christ Authorize a Hired Clergy?

October 2 2016, 3:30 PM 

There is no limit to the number of good works to be done: most of them will perish when the World, Kosmos, Ecumenical kingdom of the Devil is burned up. You have the poor with you always: YOU can just keep your money in your hand as Jesus COMMANDED so that you have something to give to the poor's hand. There is no LAW OF GIVING into the hands of an institution. Even non-Christian communities had a small fund to take care of the destitute who had no family support.

However, the church of Christ (the Rock) with several words used for "assemble" had a very NARROW function. It took place on the sabbath or REST day when those named "ministers of God" were forbidden to go out of their local area.

It was EXCLUSIVE of "vocal or instrumental rejoicing" or any speaking not required for teaching THE WORD.
It was INCLUSIVE of Rest, Reading and Rehearsing the WORD only.
Each community had a teacher over groups as small as ten families. There was no called assembly in a religious sence other than as REST which includes the concept of Skole. German Jews call their assembly a SHUL.

That was NEVER changed and the addition of the Lord's Supper preaches the death of Jesus: it's effect is to silence anyone but the Reader.

I know: you have about 20 good works with hired ministers to keep people busy all week. That means that you are HEAPING ON the laded burdens (songs and taxes) which Jesus died to remove. The only person deserving of a 'living' of food AS HE WENT was the evangelist. His mission was to walk in the steps of Jesus to go preach, suffer and die.

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Re: Did Christ Authorize a Hired Clergy?

October 4 2016, 3:11 PM 

Ken asked"Now, I know how to install a commode but I don't know how to INSTALL an elder. Do you plug him in, screw him in or nail him in."

No, you wait for Paul to make another missionary journey to install more elders, or you wait til Jesus comes again to install them.

You ask a stupid question and you get a.......

They are Scriptural so you have them. Ken, you have been part of a coC that INSTALLED them before, how did they do it again.

So you believe that no one will call down your flippant, arrogant diatribe......keep on thinking that, ok?

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Re: Did Christ Authorize a Hired Clergy?

October 5 2016, 12:33 AM 


Do you believe that Jesus is coming back to this earth and reign for a thousand years in Jerusalem LITERALLY?

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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