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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

The Trinity and Roman Catholicism (2)

October 23 2016, 12:55 AM 

Hastings Dictionary of the Bible 1963, page 1015:

“The Trinity.-...is not demonstrable by logic or by Scriptural proofs,...The term Trias was first used by Theophilus of Antioch (c AD 180),...(The term Trinity) not found in Scripture...” “The chief Trinitarian text in the NT is the baptismal formula in Mt 28:19...This late post-resurrection saying, not found in any other Gospel or anywhere else in the NT, has been viewed by some scholars as an interpolation into Matthew. It has also been pointed out that the idea of making disciples is continued in teaching them, so that the intervening reference to baptism with its Trinitarian formula was perhaps a later insertion into the saying. Finally, Eusebius's form of the (ancient) text (“in my name” rather than in the name of the Trinity) has had certain advocates. (Although the Trinitarian formula is now found in the modern-day book of Matthew), this does not guarantee its source in the historical teaching of Jesus. It is doubtless better to view the (Trinitarian) formula as derived from early (Catholic) Christian, perhaps Syrian or Palestinian, baptismal usage (cf Didache 7:1-4), and as a brief summary of the (Catholic) Church's teaching about God, Christ, and the Spirit:...”


 
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Rancor
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68.74.186.218

???...

October 23 2016, 9:35 PM 



Donnie, is this what YOU believe?

“The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century.”


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Donnie, is this what YOU believe?

October 23 2016, 11:34 PM 

Good question, Rancor.

All the researches have already been done for me. From all the evidences compiled, my answer to your question is now this: YES!!!

The pagan-influenced Trinity Creed was originated (invented) by the Roman Catholic Church. Protestant Churches inherited the dogma from the RCC. Our Restoration Movement forefathers did not endorse or teach this man-made creed, even though there are now many churches of Christ that embrace this creed [at least based on their websites: it appears that they copy each other. As I recall it wasn't too long ago that "the Holy Spirit" was "carefully" mentioned.].

If you notice the source of the statement you quoted, there's no reason for me to not believe what the Catholic Encyclopedia claims. It was the later-to-become, apostatized Catholic Church that invented the Trinity Creed, so it makes sense that it was the Catholic Church that changed it from "IN MY NAME" to the words Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Significantly, we should note that Eusebius did NOT mention either "baptism" or "the triune" entities in the passage. He simply stated, based on the manuscript he had, that Jesus told his disciples to "... Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name..."




 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

The Trinity and Roman Catholicism (3)

October 23 2016, 1:00 AM 

The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:

“The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century.”


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

The Trinity and Roman Catholicism (4)

October 23 2016, 1:10 AM 

“The Demonstratio Evangelica” by Eusebius:

Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. According to this eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Jesus' actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19: “With one word and voice He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.” That “Name” is Jesus.


 
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Bill
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99.179.116.207

Don't Be Spooked

October 23 2016, 10:12 AM 

I see that this Trinity business has really spooked Donnie. If he and Ken spend enough time "researching" and digging up more "dirt" about the Bible from the works of men of all things, I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually talked themselves into believing that everything in the Bible is just a spurious fairy tale.

Donnie and Ken claim:

That Jesus is not God
That Jesus is not eternal
That Jesus did not exist at all anywhere until 2,000 years ago
That Jesus did not predate His physical birth
That Jesus is not The Word
That singing hymns in worship is wrong
That baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is a fabrication of the Catholic Church
That Matt. 28:19 is either spurious or incorrectly translated
That Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 are incorrectly translated

Readers should decide whether Donnie and Ken are on the road toward becoming agnostics or even atheists.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Don't Be Spooked

October 23 2016, 10:41 AM 

There are so many more evidences. Bill calls it "dirt" sadly. Just wait.

There is a colossal difference between:

... (1) monotheism [belief that there is only one God]

... ---------------------- and --------------------------

... (2) polytheism [the belief in or worship of more than one god].



 
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Bill
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99.179.116.207

Re: Don't Be Spooked

October 23 2016, 11:53 AM 

I lump Donnie's and Ken's sad and dirty attempts to debunk the Bible into the same boat as the fables claiming that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and (maybe) had children, and the fables about the so-called "lost years of Jesus" (between His ages of 12 and 30). If a book has ever been written about the latter, I'm sure it's in Donnie's library.

Donnie is so spooked about the Trinity that he erroneously claims that Trinitarians worship three separate, independent "gods." Even Trinitarians know better than that. Trinitarians believe in One God, who exists in three metaphorical "persons" (so to speak) of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who are not separate from one another but are simply three simultaneous manifestations of the same One God.

Donnie rightly condemns polytheism, yet he worships two separate, divine entities, God and Jesus. Yes, Donnie says there is "one God," yet Donnie believes that Jesus is totally separate from God.

Donnie can't wait (he said, "Just wait") to provide more dirty evidence that, in his opinion, debunks the Bible.

From Donnie's and Ken's "researches," CM has lost considerable credibility. People reading this site now do so strictly out of morbid curiosity to see what brash and rash ideas the two moderators have concocted lately.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.179.116.14

Bill Questions the Roman Catholic Church--Inventor of the Trinity

October 23 2016, 3:18 PM 

If Bill is that concerned about "dirt" and other researches, I would suggest to Bill to do his own research against researches about the pagan-and-Catholic-owned Trinity Creed.

Sources here so far have come from the Cardinal (/Pope), from the Catholic Encyclopedia, from Eusebius in the early centuries (prior to our modern translations), etc.

According to my Bible, several passages support the truth that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD THE FATHER -- contrary to your perception or concept of the pagan-originated Trinity. Although the Trinity doctrine is popular in "Christianity," it doesn't make it Bible-based. Just because Roman Catholicism dominates the "Christian" world, it doesn't mean it has the teachings of Christ and the apostles.

"God the Son" is fabricated; it is not found in the Scripture.

"God the Holy Spirit" is fabricated; it is not found in the Scripture.


I agree that you are full of ideas; that you have the freedom to opine; but we've already shown you numerous times numerous passages that clearly debunk your Catholic-acquired belief.

 
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Bill
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99.179.116.207

Donnie Denies Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

October 23 2016, 4:02 PM 

Matt. 28:19 groups Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together. It says nothing about a "Trinity," yet Donnie as much as says that verse is spurious and should be removed from the Bible. Donnie evidently has an aversion to saying "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," just because the Catholics have a term called the "Trinity." Donnie readily condemns the Catholic "Trinity," yet he just as readily turns to the Catholic DR Bible to downplay singing in worship.

Wonder what other verses Donnie and Ken plan to smear in the future with their sordid "research." As others have suggested here, they should write their own "bible," called the DKB (Donnie-Ken bible).

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Bill Denies the Truth That There is ONLY ONE True God the Father

October 23 2016, 7:49 PM 

Bill,

Consider the timeline.

Eusebius (260-339) had been dead for several centuries prior to the KJV of 1611 and other translations.

(1) He made no reference to the "Trinity" when he quoted Matt. 28:19 from the manuscript he had.

(2) He made no reference to "baptism" when he quoted Matt. 28:19 from the manuscript he had.

So, there was no prejudice on his part that would attempt to discredit the way (as in whose name) baptism should be performed. He simply read from the manuscript he had during his time the original text of what Jesus commanded his disciples:

“With one word and voice He said to His disciples: 'Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.'”

 
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Bill
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99.179.116.207

Donnie Denies Baptism in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

October 23 2016, 8:20 PM 

I'm sure that Donnie was previously baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as is the usual manner in churches of Christ. Now that Donnie denies such baptism, because it allegedly smacks of the "Trinity," he had better be rebaptized in the name of Jesus if he ever hopes for salvation. His "newly acquired belief" has utterly nullified his previous baptism.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Bill Underestimates and Rejects "In the name of Jesus Christ"

October 23 2016, 8:57 PM 

I have no problem with being baptized IN THE NAME of the Father and the Son and holy ghost. One name -- not three persons. I put on Christ (not 3 persons) in baptism; my sins were forgiven -- that was important in becoming a Christian.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ {NOT INTO 3 PERSONS] have put on Christ. (Gal. 3:27, KJV)

Matt. 28:19, even with the 3 entities mentioned, does not prove your Catholic-acquired Trinity doctrine.

There are some 2 dozens of references in the New Testament to "in the name of Jesus Christ" -- several of which have to do with baptism.

You have yet to acknowledge the truth in (just a few listed here) these passages ... and stop rejecting these passages:

Acts.2[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts.8[16] (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts.10[48] And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Acts.19[5] When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Gal.3[27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
99.179.116.14

Acts 2:38 and Bill's Baptism

October 23 2016, 2:47 PM 

Acts 2:38 -- "... be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...." is being ignored or rejected by Bill because of his Trinitarian tendencies.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: The Trinity and Roman Catholicism (4)

October 23 2016, 1:52 PM 

Donnie, the command by the trinitarians who were not as foolish as the LU pattern, stands out like a sore thumb.

They forgot to change "baptize in the NAMES" of Father, Son and Spirit. However, after they had trouble reading the rest of Scripture when they hallucinated that THEY had to authority to baptize in three NAMES they consistently baptized three times.

The name is SINGULAR and the only authority was vested in JESUS.
Peter heard what the budding Catholics did not hear. He heard and understood to baptize in the NAME of Jesus Christ.
If Jesus really pronounced what John wrote many years later as he corrected some of the folly which filtered in from paganism, then Peter violated with a HIGH HAND command by Jesus whom He had previously confessed:

Matt. 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
Matt. 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Matt. 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Matt. 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the CHRIST, the Son of the living God.
Matt. 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my FATHER which is in HEAVEN.


Trinitarians (Antichrists says John) say that Jesus was LYING by saying the HE (present) was the FATHER revealing to Peter. Once you are over the edge God will never let you stop

God says that He is not a MAN nor the SON of man: we despise Him by thinking that He always meant, BUT, I can BECOME a man and the SON of man.

No one ever thought that what or whom God ordained or anointed to reveal Himself was a GOD PERSON: If Jesus was not of the SPERM of Abraham then He could not be MADE TO BE both Lord and Christ.

When the preacher says I BAPTIZE YOU they make a legalistic formula which was NEVER PRONOUNCED anywhere in the Bible. We are baptized INTO the LIKENESS of the Death, burial and resurrection of Jesus ONLY. Jesus is Jehovah's agent as SAVIOUR. He translates our lonely spirit into a Heavenly Kingdom. I have heard one deacon locally who baptized in the name Jesus Christ.

Heb. 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the THRONE of God.


He will reign by Himself in until He comes again when the Throne will be returned to God. People love and lust to debunk Jesus by making Him helpless. They can then lie, cheat and steal by claiming that they now hear A spirit making especially the epistles obsolete. John says that they are strongly deluded but never tell the kings-queens that they have no clothes and the angels in heaven are mocking them.



    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Oct 23, 2016 2:13 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: The Trinity and Roman Catholicism (4)

October 23 2016, 2:55 PM 

Paul Tillich "Baptism was the sacrament of entrance into the church. The baptized person, who at that time, of course, was a pagan adult, had to confess that he would accept the implication of his baptism.

Then he was baptized in the name of Christ.

Later on, the names of God the Father and the Spirit were added.

As yet there were no accompanying explanations; this was faith and liturgy, not yet theology." (Tillich, p. 18-19)

Along with the Trinitarian baptismal formula came many other errors such as the replacement of immersion.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.179.116.14

Re: The Trinity and Roman Catholicism (4)

October 23 2016, 3:50 PM 

It is noteworthy that Eusebius did not even mention "baptism." To my knowledge.

Eusebius informs us of Jesus' actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19: “With one word and voice He said to His disciples: 'Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.'”

The preceding verse (v. 18) states: "All power is GIVEN UNTO ME in heaven and in earth."

It makes sense that making disciples is "IN MY NAME."

"The Holy Ghost" is not mentioned anywhere else in Matthew 28. That's the Trinity Creed's God Person No. 3 (and Bill's)

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: The Trinity and Roman Catholicism (4)

October 23 2016, 5:50 PM 

It seems that Paul didn't consult Bill about what Jesus commanded either.

Acts 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will,
and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.


The God of our Fathers defines Himself as Lord-God or Jehovah the only TRUE god or elohim.
That God chose Jesus THE JUST ONE to hear His voice.
That God breathed (spirit) without measure or meter
And Jesus articulated that "breath" which reflected off Him as did the beam of God who IS light.
God breathed through the prophets but in these days He SPOKE only through His Son.
God used Jesus for this LAST CREATION reserved unto fire and not the one destroyed by water.
Now as HOLY SPIRIT Jesus of Nazareth appeared to and let Jesus seem Him in His "another" or glorified state.
Paul like the other apostles were the only eye-- and ear-- witnesses of what Jesus spoke to them.
No others hear His Voice so even if they pray 40 days don't believe that THEY are latter day apostles.

You cannot be a witness or an apostle able to remember what you HAVE NEVER HEARD. Don't drink their KoolAid or fall into their Discipling Dilemna

Acts 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins,
calling on the name of THE LORD.


NONE OF THE TRINITARIANS ask the candidate to personally CALL on the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as a PERSONAL demand. We call upon or ASK Jesus to wash us, adopt us, give us new clothes and then admit us into the School of the Word. God doesn't hold School of the Word neither does the imaginary personal WIND or BREATH.

Unless they are very, very old never listen to personal opinions, personal experiences, rhetoric for sale, singers, instrument players or actors: they are ANTI-Logos and therefore ANTI-Christ because He is the only Spirit Breathed upon to ARTICULATE the Word.

Never let anyone tell you that they can see or hear JESUS as A God Person named the WORD: the Word or Logos is god's REGULATIVE or GOVERNING PRINCIPLE and never a PEOPLE.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: The Trinity and Roman Catholicism (4)

October 23 2016, 7:34 PM 

Bill: That Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 are incorrectly translated

Nope: the say what they mean. Believers are students and not "ceremonial worshipers": the go to BIBLE class which demands through the bible

Eph. 5:19 SPEAKING
..... to YOURSELVES in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
.....singing and making melody i
..... in YOUR HEART to the Lord;


Scripture makes wide use of antithetical parallelism: do THIS therefore do NOT do THAT. Notice that there are TWO places of action. Notice the two places:

Phil. 3:2 Beware of dogs [gender-tender performing for show], beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Phil. 3:3 For we are the circumcision,
.....which worship God IN the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus,
.....and have no confidence IN the flesh


Rhetoric, singing or playing instruments is defined as Scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites
Worship which means giving out attention to God and HIS Word is IN the spirit or mind.
Singing praise songs gives attention to the leader or your own voice: that is worship IN THE FLESH.

God is SPIRIT and the only place He looks for worship is in YOUR Spirit or Mind.

Now, Disciples of Christ (only) have no trouble in separating things IN THE FLESH trying to silence worship IN THE SPIRIT.

God gives you no right to private interpret: so just READ the text for what simple reading allows.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

The Trinity and Roman Catholicism (5)

October 23 2016, 9:08 PM 

The Catholic University of America in Washington, D. C. 1923, New Testament Studies Number 5:

The Lord's Command To Baptize An Historical Critical Investigation. By Bernard Henry Cuneo page 27. “The passages in Acts and the Letters of St. Paul. These passages seem to point to the earliest form as baptism in the name of the Lord.” Also we find. “Is it possible to reconcile these facts with the belief that Christ commanded his disciples to baptize in the triune form? Had Christ given such a command, it is urged, the Apostolic Church would have followed him, and we should have some trace of this obedience in the New Testament. No such trace can be found. The only explanation of this silence, according to the anti-traditional view, is this the short christological (Jesus Name) formula was (the) original, and the longer triune formula was a later development.”

 
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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
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Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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