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Is it ok to not support any local Church of Christ? (1 Corinthians 16:1-2 ; Hebrews 10:25)

November 26 2016 at 8:59 PM
Stan  (no login)
from IP address 68.53.71.114

Looks like the moderators of this website (Donnie and Ken) will not be going to worship with a congregation tomorrow - sad. You are so judgmental of the masses that you cannot find one place to attend and worship in spirit and truth singing praises, taking communion, and giving of your means to support the Lord’s work. Please tell me I am mistaken. I wish I were. The apostle Paul would blister you for this vile and divisive website that promotes disunity and slander in the body of Christ while you do nothing to actually support a Church of Christ with your presence and involvement. Jesus took the nails for you too, but you must repent and accept His truth and mercy and start faithfully spreading mercy to other believers instead of the religious vomit here at concerned members. Of what church are you members?

Galatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Is it ok to not support any local Church of Christ? (1 Corinthians 16:1-2 ; Hebrews 10:25)

November 26 2016, 9:48 PM 

Rather than using US as the pattern it might be better to exclude LAWS beyond PREACHING the Word by READING the WORD (only) for doctrine and comfort.

The only "worship" concept in the bible is to "give attendance to the public reading of the Word." The Greek ekklesia or synagogue was NOT a worship center and some higher authority supplied what was to be READ and DISCUSSED. Neither had a staff and neither did most churches of Christ during it's best days. Jesus EXAMPLED standing up to READ and then decently and in order SAT DOWN.

Worship IN Spirit is a PLACE in contrast to Jerusalem. Worship in truth is defined as PREACHING the Word by READING the Word.

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 is not a command to "lay by in store" as an act of worship. It is to plan for how their PROMISED gift to the STARVING could be collected BEFORE Paul came perhaps exercising an extorting influence: extoring or pleading is grouped with murder. I hope you are not going to lay claim to the WIDOW'S BOX in the back of synagogues.

Lay by HIM should be obvious but tricky men do tricky teaching.
Paul commanded that Jimmy lay by Jimmy something from his first work day (Sunday). He did not command "laying by in store" at the church. The money would be hand carried to the STARVING. It only happened once and history rejects weekly giving except to take care of any needy member or feed an evangelist with a GO button.

2Cor. 8:8 I speak NOT by commandment , but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.

So, you see, Paul had not commanded but the Corinthians decided to send something to the starving. However, after a year they might not be ready. He might be in Corinth all winter and he said that theire should be no collections after he came.

This happened only once in the New Testament and then only for the destitute. In church history giving was voluntary even for the starving: a small sum was kept by an elder and used only for traveling ministers or the destitute.

The command is to SPEAK that which is written for our learning.
ODE and PSALLO are IN THE HEART (spirit) where only God can hear it That is because psallo is never a musical melody word and carries nasty meanings such as SOP.

Heb. 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


The people ASSEMBLED themselves but many were too isolated. Assembling is a SYNAGOGUE: the synagogue from the wilderness onward was:

EXCLUSIVE of "vocal or instrumental rejoicing or rhetoric."
INCLUSIVE of "Rest, Reading and Rehearsing the Word" only.

[linked image]

So, before you judge people for not following your commands, and letting YOU command me more than once a week I am quite certain that I reach lots more people and never PASS THE PLATE. After the all the command is NOT to assemble yourselves but DON'T give up the practice. The command is to GO into all the world and teach that which HAS been taught.



    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Nov 26, 2016 9:53 PM


 
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Visitor (Rancor)
(no login)
68.74.186.218

ATTN: ALL

November 27 2016, 5:53 AM 


Stan, I have been preaching on this subject "local church" for years. I have give up. All they really want is to gripe and complain. So be it...

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: ATTN: Rancor

December 4 2016, 2:19 PM 

Where have you been preaching, Rancor? Here or elsewhere?

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: ATTN: Rancor

December 4 2016, 2:23 PM 

Rancor, what other subjects have you been preaching on here or elsewhere in addition to the subject of "the local church"?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Is it ok to not support any local Church of Christ? (1 Corinthians 16:1-2 ; Hebrews 10:25)

November 27 2016, 12:17 PM 

Maybe Donnie needs to do the grammar on this passage:

[linked image]

Where does EACH treasure up week by week?

that there be no gatherings when I come.

When does the LOGIA cease? Paul might be there for 3 months.

1Cor. 16:3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I SEND to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.


The one time logia or benevolence would be gathered BEFORE Paul arrived. Corinth would select someone to SEND IT ALL to the destitute" as liberality and not a command. Paul might not even accompany the money to make certain that there were no deducted expenses..

Only a small fraction of the reasonable collection goes to the DESTITUTE so what might be good becomes an EVIL TOOL by even men to fleece the flock to feed the goats. I spend most of my life hearing about "free will offerings" but there is no free will if it is a LAW OF GIVING.

[linked image]



    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Nov 27, 2016 2:43 PM


 
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Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

There is no IF, AND, and especially BUT in Hebrews 10:25

November 27 2016, 4:01 PM 

Ken said "Heb. 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

The people ASSEMBLED themselves but many were too isolated. Assembling is a SYNAGOGUE: the synagogue from the wilderness onward was: EXCLUSIVE of "vocal or instrumental rejoicing or rhetoric." INCLUSIVE of "Rest, Reading and Rehearsing the Word" only."

You READ that which is written but refused to follow it. You said the people assembled themselves together then you put in your BIG BUT, as always. There IS NO BUT in it. You are NOT isolated to much that you can't assemble with the saints or even have people over to your house to have an assembly. Those that were isolated in the first church found ways to meet together and you can too. THERE IS NO "BUT" in the Scriptures. YOU put it there because it doesn't fit your agenda. You also MADE UP the part of being exclusive of vocal rejoicing. Scriptures affirms that both Jesus and the apostles SANG. THEY SANG. Regardless of your traditions.....THEY SANG.

If assembling is a synagogue then why have you continued to violate ScripturE?

WHY? Because Ken knows more than anyone else, even the translators.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: There is no IF, AND, and especially BUT in Hebrews 10:25

November 27 2016, 4:18 PM 

Titans won! WHO lays by WHOM if you can tell?

Did you obey the direct command and Jesus approved and Paul taught PREACHING the WORD by READING the Word?


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Nov 27, 2016 4:23 PM


 
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Dianna Howell
(Login dianna01)
107.77.90.17

There is a "but" in that sentence!

November 27 2016, 4:38 PM 

Hebrews 10:25 (KJV)
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is ; "but" exhorting one another : and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


I put the quotation marks around the word "but", so you would be sure to see it is in the sentence.


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

!

November 27 2016, 5:48 PM 

If you read much history large numbers gave up attending the "synagogue" or School (only) of the Word (only) which was boring to them and not needed as much as portions of Scripture began to be copied and circulated.

The "centers" usualy surrounding a cathedral at a "fair" town began holding festivals to attract the people. When the apostates say that Clement of Alexander was approving instrumments they never read enough to know that the title of that chapter was "how to conduct ourselves at feasts." One of the first apostasies was polished speakers who began slowly by telling Bible Stories˜ They discovered that they could travel around like modern "workshops" and become the wealthiest people around.

THE NISIBENE HYMNS 373 A.D.

http://www.piney.com/EphraimHymns.html

So, Paul is saying "don't quit altogether." He would mock groups which try to have something going all week.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Nov 28, 2016 12:45 AM


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: There is a &quot;but&quot; in that sentence!

November 27 2016, 9:23 PM 

Stan, it is fin to contribute to the operation of a faithful church but it is not acceptable to lie about the small mentions of giving as a commanded act of worship. Most if not all apostates--especially in these last days (we hope)--get their POWER by lying about tithes and offerings. The first day of the week was the first day of work. Many people especially poor Christians lived day to day. He did not say "also take something out of all seven days of the week. Tithing was only about 1/10 of the prophet (increase) during 4 out of seven years as food only from free farms only to feed the priesthood on rare rotating duty and only a daily dole of food when on duty.

Jesus said that the children of the King do not pay taxes but modern people want 10 percent of your gross income (not your profit) and even 10 percent of something auntie willed you. This was never PROPORTIONAL giving but history notes that only the prosperous were encouraged to give to the poor.

NIV: On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. 1 Corinthians 16:2NIV

NAS: On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come. 1 Corinthians 16:2NAS

NKJV: On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come. 1 Corinthians16:2

RSV: On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that contributions need not be made when I come. 1 Corinthians 16:2

LIV: On every Lord's Day each of you should put aside something from what you have earned during the week, and use it for this offering. The amount depends on how much the Lord has helped you earn. Don't wait until I get there and then try to collect it all at once. 1 Corinthians 16:2

Modern Speech: On the first day of every week let each of you put on one side and store up at his home whatever gain has been granted him; so that whenever I come, there may be no collections going on. (The Modern Speech New Testament, Richard Francis Weymouth).

Authentic Version: The day after the Sabbath let each of you put by savings as he has prospered, so that collections do not have to be made when I come. (The Authentic Version, Hugh J. Schonfield).

NEV: Every Sunday each of you is to put aside and keep by him a sum in proportion to his gains, so that there may be no collecting when I come. (New English Bible New Testament).

Plain English: On the first day of the week let each of you put aside and save something from his earnings; so that the money has not all to be collected when I come. (The New Testament in Plain English, Charles Kingsley Williams).

Neander: But Paul, if we examine his language closely, says no more than this: that every one should lay by in his own house on the first day of the week, whatever he was able to save.

This certainly might mean, that every one should bring with him the sum he had saved to the meeting of the church, that thus the individual contributions might be collected together, and be ready for Paul as soon as he came.

But this would be making a gratuitous supposition, not at all required by the connexion of the passage.

We may fairly understand the whole passage to mean, that every one on the first day of the week should lay aside what he could spare, so that when Paul came, every one might be prepared with the total of the sum laid by, and then by pulling the sums together, the collection of the whole church would be at once made." Dr. Augustus Neander, in his "History of the Training and Planting of the Christian Church,"


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Dec 3, 2016 3:49 PM


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Is it ok to not support any local Church of Christ? (1 Corinthians 16:1-2 ; Hebrews 10:25)

November 28 2016, 12:45 AM 

Stan,

I've been reading your posts with interest. While you may not be participating in doctrinal discussions in detail, I sense your passion for the church of Christ, including your plea for supporting a local church. I would like to ask you a few questions (hopefully, these are not "personal" questions). Partly because there may be some of our readers who may be interested in meeting you and in supporting your local church:

---- 1. What is the name, as well as location, of your church?
---- 2. What leadership role is yours in the local church -- preacher?
---- 3. Do you use instrumental music during worship?
---- 4. Do you have a Praise Team or choir?
---- 5. Do you sing contemporary praise songs? Traditional hymns? Both?
---- 6. What is the difference between salvation by grace and baptism.

My name is Donnie Cruz -- you already know that. What's your last name?

You quoted: Galatians 4:16 -- "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" If you're directing that question to me, my answer is: "No; why should you even think that?"

 
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Visitor (Rancor)
(no login)
68.74.186.218

ATTN: ALL

November 28 2016, 7:47 AM 


You can have a great discussion without all the personal information. JMHO.

 
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Visitor (Rancor)
(no login)
68.74.186.218

ATTN: ALL

November 28 2016, 4:21 PM 


A pack of (old) wolves waiting on Stan. happy.gif


[linked image]

 
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Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

Either Their Way or the Highway

November 29 2016, 2:10 PM 

Not sure of your identity Stan, but please be careful here. You either agree with everything that they teach, or they will edit and delete your message so you can't communicate your opinion. They don't mind telling who pays the bills here at concernedmembers and therefore they get in the first and last word on everything. They make light of the Scriptures that don't fit their opinion or traditions.

 
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Stan
(no login)
68.53.71.114

Re: Either Their Way or the Highway

November 29 2016, 11:53 PM 

Sounds like what you are describing is a den of vipers so I appreciate the heads up Dave.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Either Their Way or the Highway

November 30 2016, 12:33 AM 

A typical message from Dave when the cerebral cortex is irate and gets emotional. happy.gif Thanks, Dave.

 
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Stan
(no login)
68.53.71.114

Re: Is it ok to not support any local Church of Christ? (1 Corinthians 16:1-2 ; Hebrews 10:25)

November 28 2016, 5:45 PM 

Question 1 and 2 are personal but you likely already know who I am. I just don't want everyone to know.
3. No.
4. No.
5. Both, but more traditional overall.
6. No difference. Baptism is the biblically authorized faith response and obedience to accept Jesus Christ and His saving blood and grace.

The Scriptural Question at the end is more of a postscript I have started typing at the end of my messages and is not directly addressing you.

Galatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Is it ok to not support any local Church of Christ? (1 Corinthians 16:1-2 ; Hebrews 10:25)

November 28 2016, 9:40 PM 

Stan,

Q1 & Q2: No, I do not know you. I do recall (from some quickly written note last year) that someone posted a message with the same IP address as yours but with a different one-word name, which may have been a last name. I can understand your hesitancy....

Q3, Q4, Q5: Glad to hear that....

Q6: I asked because there are now church websites whose "What We Believe" page has 2 separate sections:

(a) Salvation by Grace Through Faith -- which often references Ephesians 2:8,9 and associates it with "remission of sins"

---------------------- and -----------------------

(b) Water Baptism -- as simply to fulfill the command of Christ.

Please feel free to comment further on Q6.

You have clarified your use of the passage as a postscript.

Stan, thanks so much for taking time to respond to the questions.


 
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Stan
(no login)
68.53.71.114

Re: Is it ok to not support any local Church of Christ? (1 Corinthians 16:1-2 ; Hebrews 10:25)

November 28 2016, 10:46 PM 

No problem Donnie. My wife Lindsey and I use the same computer and she told me about your site and also told me she made a comment before. She does not like your website and I don't think she reads it anymore but now I've been reading (and commenting) almost every day. By what you were communicating I figured you were able to tell my identity. Regarding Question #6, I was not aware of this distinction some churches are making and on this matter I think your point of view on the Scriptures is accurate. I disagree with any new understanding and teaching on baptism.

 
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