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Stan
(no login)
68.53.71.114

Re: Ken Sublett.....Vicar of God???

December 3 2016, 12:53 PM 

On November 26th I asked if it is ok to not support any local Church of Christ? I am still waiting for Donnie to answer this specific question and not dodge the truth. (1 Corinthians 16:1-2 ; Hebrews 10:25)

Galatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Collection for the Saints; Not Forsaking the Assembling

December 3 2016, 4:02 PM 

Stan,

Thanks for reminding me. Multi-tasking is not one of my strengths especially when it's due to time restraints. And, no, dodging the truth is not one of my idiosyncrasies.

For now I'd like to briefly comment on the two references:

(1) I would like to include the following verse (v. 3) in I Corinthians 16 that you quoted: "[1] Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. [2] Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. [3] And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem."

Some local congregations (esp. large/mega churches) have ongoing issues such as "staff infection." I am not opposed to funds directly supporting mission work and the needy saints. And I'm not in favor of supporting unnecessary "missions" and "ministries" -- the "worship ministry" is one of them. The "musical minister" should seek employment somewhere else: perhaps by being a music teacher in high school or college or by being a symphony director. The salary of a "worship minister" could support several evangelists or missionaries overseas.

The passage calls for the "collection for the saints." The Galatian and Corinthian churches have the responsibility of collecting "for the saints." The first day of the week is a matter of convenience or expediency. The target is Jerusalem in this instance. In my personal case, most of my support goes directly to mission efforts overseas.

(2) [I must needs go.... Sorry.]



======================

I'm back; thanks for your patience. It's continued below [d.c.]:


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 23.127.32.146 on Dec 3, 2016 9:59 PM


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Collection for the Saints; Not Forsaking the Assembling

December 3 2016, 9:51 PM 

(2) I would like to also include other verses in Hebrews 10 that you quoted:

[1] For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. ... [7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. [8] Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; [9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. [10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. [11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: [12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; ...

[24] And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: [25] Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. [26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins....


In context, we learn about the contrast or comparison between being under the law of Moses (Luke 24:44; Acts 13:39; etc.) and being under the law of Christ (Gal. 6:2).

(Note: While we're also in the midst of discussing Jesus Christ and his relationship to his God the Father [I can't resist bringing it up], we observe how Jesus addressed not himself but his God: "I come to do thy will, O God." Furthermore, the man Jesus Christ, who is the mediator between God and men [I Tim. 2:5], "sat down on the right hand of God.")

I do not observe in the passage that the assembly needs to be in a designated "worship center." I have no objection to saints gathering at a specific location. But a local school of Christ is devoted to the study of God's Word (rather than "musical worship" being its main purpose), and it does not preclude assembly in the home where members of a family or a number of families can assemble for reading and studying of God's Word and for commemorating Christ's suffering and death on Calvary's tree.

Matt. 18:[20] -- "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Oops ... it does not say, "in the name of F, S, H.S."; it says in the name of Jesus Christ -- a name above every name.

I believe that "the day approaching" is in reference to the Judgment Day.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Collection for the Saints; Not Forsaking the Assembling

December 3 2016, 10:37 PM 

Matt. 18:[20] -- "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

Based on the nature of the church as UMBRELLICUM or Safe House, we might doubt that He gathers with two or three thousand gathered to keep Him silent.

Heb. 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines.
.....For it is a good thing that the heart be established with GRACE;
.....not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.


My observation is that everyone including myself hears about and are OCCUPIED about the goodies to let us ignore the pontification.

Heb. 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
Heb. 13:11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin,
.....are burned without the camp.
Heb. 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood,
.....suffered without the gate.
Heb. 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
Heb. 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
Heb. 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually,
.....that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
Heb. 13:16 But to do good and to communicate forget not:
.....for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.


The Spirit of Christ in the Prophets and revealed to the Apostles and left for our memory is the ONLY SOURCE.

Is. 57:19 I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, [SILENCE]
.....to him that is far off, and to him that is near,
.....saith the LORD; and I will heal him.


Communing with the evangelist is:

g2842. koinonia, koy-nohn-ee´-ah; from 2844; partnership, i.e. (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction: — (to) communicate(-ation), communion, (contri-)distribution, fellowship

As an evangelist: Phil. 4:15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.

g2841. koinoneo, koy-no-neh´-o; from 2844; to share with others (objectively or subjectively): — communicate, distribute, be partaker.

When we ASSEMBLE OURSELVES in answer to the gospel invitation of Jesus:

Matt. 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said,
.....I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth,
.....because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Matt. 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight


The wise are Sophists: speakers, singers, instrument players which in degraded Greek society SOLD themselves. Beside, the prudent or well educated merchant class know nothing and are PREVENTED from speaking For God.

WHY IS THAT?
.
Matt. 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father:
.....and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father;
.....neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son,
..... and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Matt. 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Matt. 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me;
.....for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Matt. 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


The Laded Burden in Hebrew and Greek speaks of songs which are used by God to pronounce doom. The laded burden is also "a tax not in time of war." Jesus paid the Temple Tax and said that sons do NOT owe a tax.

The Tithe was RENT due on lands stolen from the owners: Only a tiny fraction went to the priestood in the form of a daily dole of food when on rare, rotating duty at a temple and sacrificial system God imposed by their request but did not command.

The godly people always "synagogued" in their isolated settlements and even in organized synagogues there was a poor box only for the poor and widows.

God does not supply any mandatory money: that would deny:

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek

Even if you cajole the old people to sell their valuables so you can set up thousands of institutions, it will have NO power over the Little Flock of Lost Spirits Jesus was sent to seek and "translate their spirits into a heavenly kingdom."



    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Dec 3, 2016 10:39 PM


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Collection for the Saints; Not Forsaking the Assembling

December 4 2016, 2:44 PM 

Stan,

Now that I have made my long-awaited response to your specific question, I'm interested in your feedback.

 
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Visitor (Rancor)
(no login)
68.74.186.218

Re: Collection for the Saints; Not Forsaking the Assembling

December 4 2016, 3:42 PM 



Looks like Stan got a twofer. Ken, take a break.

 
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Stan
(no login)
68.53.71.114

Re: Collection for the Saints; Not Forsaking the Assembling

December 4 2016, 5:34 PM 

Before I respond with feedback, let me clarify.

1. You do currently worship somewhere on the Lord's Day and take communion?
2. You do currently support the work and mission of the church financially, even if most of it is directly to ministries and/or missionaries?

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Collection for the Saints; Not Forsaking the Assembling

December 4 2016, 6:46 PM 

1. That may be a personal question [ happy.gif ]. I think that you will find the answer when you read more of the various topics we've been discussing here for years.

2. That may be a personal question, too. I think that we're really discussing what the text regarding "collection for the saints" means in context. It's not an issue with me if we differ in that regard.

We can probably expand the discussion of I Corinthians 16:1-3 [notice I included verse 3] by defining:

----- What "collection for the saints" encompasses
----- If "collection for the saints" = "mission of the 'church'"
----- What the modern-day's "mission of the church" includes
----- How or what we can substitute for Galatia, Corinth and Jerusalem ...
----- ... in order to have a better understanding of the text ...
----- If the church has become an organization that employs musicians
----- ..., etc.

 
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Stan
(no login)
68.53.71.114

Re: Collection for the Saints; Not Forsaking the Assembling

December 4 2016, 8:54 PM 

How long will you dodge the truth Donnie? I did not ask you a personal question regarding specifically where you go to church or your full name. I just asked if you participate in worship/communion on the Lord's Day. Scripture (not Stan) is ready to blister you for not obeying God, but first need clarification. If, in fact, you are, then you will be in obedience to Hebrews 10:25 and 1 Corinthians 16:1-2. Still waiting.....

Galatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Collection for the Saints; Not Forsaking the Assembling

December 4 2016, 9:38 PM 

What is your definition of "worship," Stan? Better yet: what is the description of "worship" in the New Testament? Besides worshiping "God in spirit and in truth," provide me the scriptural pattern for "worship." Will "corporate" worshipers be judged as a group, or does one have to work out "his own" salvation or his "reasonable service" being acceptable to God?

Sorry, Stan, but what makes you think that I do not assemble with the saints nor commemorate the Lord's suffering and death?

I am not dodging the truth in Hebrews 10:25 and I Corinthians 16:1,2. (Again I will have to remind you that I am including I Cor. 16:3, which for some reason you consider unimportant in properly understanding the context of the passage.) You may consider me as dodging Stan's proclivity to judge others, but you're not the truth. Why should I even bother to respond to you in the manner that you insistently want me to respond: (1) when you've already prejudged me in your initial post, and (2) when you have much opportunity to learn more about me and this website that you have also prejudged?

To me what I do is irrelevant in the study of God's Word regarding these matters: it only serves your purpose of substituting for God in judging me.

All you have to do, Stan, if you're serious about studying God's truth, is to discuss the topic that you brought up in the first place. Perhaps, I was mistaken in not believing that your objective in the first place was to condemn this website and its moderators and others of like mind. It now appears that you've learned quickly from a few other posters of like mind who condemn this website and what it tries to accomplish.

Having said all that, let's get back to the real discussion, shall we? This is the time for you to present your views or any disagreements with me on the collection and assembly issues. If my argument(s) for and defense of the truth disagrees with you, then present your own argument(s).

Let's compare notes.

 
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Stan
(no login)
68.53.71.114

Re: Collection for the Saints; Not Forsaking the Assembling

December 4 2016, 10:25 PM 

DONNIE: What is your definition of "worship," Stan? Better yet: what is the description of "worship" in the New Testament? Besides worshiping "God in spirit and in truth," provide me the scriptural pattern for "worship." Will "corporate" worshipers be judged as a group, or does one have to work out "his own" salvation or his "reasonable service" being acceptable to God?

STAN: Both. We are to worship as an individual, and can do so privately, but are also directed to assemble together for worship, which includes taking the Lord's Supper.


DONNIE: Sorry, Stan, but what makes you think that I do not assemble with the saints nor commemorate the Lord's suffering and death?

I am not dodging the truth in Hebrews 10:25 and I Corinthians 16:1,2. (Again I will have to remind you that I am including I Cor. 16:3, which for some reason you consider unimportant in properly understanding the context of the passage.) You may consider me as dodging Stan's proclivity to judge others, but you're not the truth. Why should I even bother to respond to you in the manner that you insistently want me to respond: (1) when you've already prejudged me in your initial post, and (2) when you have much opportunity to learn more about me and this website that you have also prejudged?

To me what I do is irrelevant in the study of God's Word regarding these matters: it only serves your purpose of substituting for God in judging me.

STAN: What you do is relevant, because if you do not even worship with a congregation, then you are being hypocritical to critique others and their congregations who are at least trying to please God in fulfilling Hebrews 10:25.


DONNIE: All you have to do, Stan, if you're serious about studying God's truth, is to discuss the topic that you brought up in the first place. Perhaps, I was mistaken in not believing that your objective in the first place was to condemn this website and its moderators and others of like mind. It now appears that you've learned quickly from a few other posters of like mind who condemn this website and what it tries to accomplish.

Having said all that, let's get back to the real discussion, shall we? This is the time for you to present your views or any disagreements with me on the collection and assembly issues. If my argument(s) for and defense of the truth disagrees with you, then present your own argument(s).

Let's compare notes.

STAN: 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 provides a pattern of giving financially on the first day of the week to the local church. Hebrews 10:25 issues a command and warning against forsaking the assembling of the saints.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Collection for the Saints; Not Forsaking the Assembling

December 4 2016, 11:43 PM 

Stan,

(1) Will "corporate" worshipers be judged as a group, or does one have to work out "his own" salvation or his "reasonable service" being acceptable to God? (Already asked this.)

(2) What really is the purpose of the assembly (by definition: assembly is a gathering like a school or class) in Hebrews 10:25? Am I supposed to read "musical worship" in the text?

(3) I still maintain that what I do (or what someone else does) is irrelevant to the discussion of matters at hand. It is relevant to you only because you want to justify your judgment of the moderators and this website. And you're still continuing to do it. Why can't you leave the judgment of someone else's heart to God for once? Why is it not hypocritical of you to critique me?

(4) Can you honestly tell me specifically what your understanding of "collection for the saints" is?

(5) Do you equate "collection for the saints" with supporting innumerable, unnecessary, culture-driven activities of the church, aside from helping the needy saints and evangelism?

(6) Do you consider "collection for the saints" as providing employment to "music professionals" to enhance "worship" as they "lead" the congregants to God's holy presence?

(7) What do you think of the saints in Jerusalem as the true recipients of "the collection for the saints"? (cf. verse 3 that you did not include.)

(8) In Heb. 10, where it says "as ye see the day approaching," which "day" is that referring to?

(9) There are more questions, but how much attention did you give to my two posts in response to your question. I can't tell which items you agree or disagree with.

 
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Stan
(no login)
68.53.71.114

Re: Collection for the Saints; Not Forsaking the Assembling

December 5 2016, 9:16 PM 

Stan,

(1) Will "corporate" worshipers be judged as a group, or does one have to work out "his own" salvation or his "reasonable service" being acceptable to God? (Already asked this.)

STAN'S RESPONSE: Already answered this. Both.


(2) What really is the purpose of the assembly (by definition: assembly is a gathering like a school or class) in Hebrews 10:25? Am I supposed to read "musical worship" in the text?

STAN'S RESPONSE: No, but there are other texts that reference singing Donnie. Surely you know about Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16?


(3) I still maintain that what I do (or what someone else does) is irrelevant to the discussion of matters at hand. It is relevant to you only because you want to justify your judgment of the moderators and this website. And you're still continuing to do it. Why can't you leave the judgment of someone else's heart to God for once? Why is it not hypocritical of you to critique me?

STAN'S RESPONSE: You have the right to maintain that, and the readers can discern your behavior and fruit. You are correct that we are not to judge, including the one who is judging. If you feel judged maybe it's truth influencing your conscience? There is only one Lawgiver and Judge (James 4:12) so Stan is not trying to judge you.


(4) Can you honestly tell me specifically what your understanding of "collection for the saints" is?

STAN'S RESPONSE: In the context it was collecting money from the Corinthians for the Judeans. However, in Paul's reference to "the first day of the week" it infers this was a weekly practice, just like with communion in Acts 20:7. You are disagreeing with 99% of Churches of Christ if you contest this interpretation, not just my understanding.


(5) Do you equate "collection for the saints" with supporting innumerable, unnecessary, culture-driven activities of the church, aside from helping the needy saints and evangelism?

STAN'S REPONSE: Of course not.


(6) Do you consider "collection for the saints" as providing employment to "music professionals" to enhance "worship" as they "lead" the congregants to God's holy presence?

STAN'S RESPONSE: Are you saying you cannot find any congregation that isn't doing this that you can support? This is my point!


(7) What do you think of the saints in Jerusalem as the true recipients of "the collection for the saints"? (cf. verse 3 that you did not include.)

STAN'S RESPONSE: Agreed. This does not dismiss the pattern of collecting every first day of the week, even if the money on this given Sunday was for that purpose. Sometimes churches/elders set aside 5th Sunday contributions for supporting certain church efforts.


(8) In Heb. 10, where it says "as ye see the day approaching," which "day" is that referring to?

STAN'S RESPONSE: The second coming of Christ.


(9) There are more questions, but how much attention did you give to my two posts in response to your question. I can't tell which items you agree or disagree with.

STAN'S RESPONSE: Donnie, this is the second time now that I have copied and pasted your entire message and responded to each section, so even if you disagree with my perspective of Scripture you cannot say I am not giving your thoughts "attention."

Galatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

God gave NO FUNDING and no ROLE

December 4 2016, 10:09 PM 

Acts 11:27 And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
Acts 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus,
.....and signified by the Spirit that there should
.....be great dearth throughout all the world:


The PURPOSE: A Dearth is a "LACK OF FOOD." A Famine hunger, starved to death

.....which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.


That sets the EVENT and the TIME FRAME:

Acts 11:29 Then the disciples, EVERY man according to his ability,
.....determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:
Acts 11:30 Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.

Acts 11.29 The disciples, as anyone had PLENTY,
.....EACH determined to send relief to the brothers who lived in Judea;


Neither Jesus nor Paul ever initiated a LAW OF LAYING BY AT CHURCH.

NEVER A TAX: log-eia voluntary contributions, collection for CHARITY,

Hdt. 6.73 the kings chose ten men of Aegina who were most honored for wealth and lineage,


NOW ABOUT A YEAR LATER WHEN PAUL IS COMING TO CORINTH WHO VOLUNTEERED.

1Cor. 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints,
.....as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.


Order is not a COMMAND but a way for EACH person's PERSONAL SAVINGS might be collected:

LATIN ordĭno , āvi, ātum, 1, v. a. ordo,I.to order, set in order, arrange, adjust, dispose, regulate. to draw up in order
well ordered, orderly, in an orderly manner, in order, methodically

GREEK Ditasso make arrangements, arrange for oneself, classify

1Cor. 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every ONE of you lay by HIM in store,
.....as God hath prospered him,
.....that there be NO gatherings when I come.


Paul might be in Corinth three months

EACH: hekastos , ē, on, A. each, OPPOSITE the WHOLE BODY, they went home EACH to his own house, singly, by itself, each by HIMSELF,

AT EACH HOUSE: thēsaur-izō , A.store, treasure up, hoard, lay up treasure, store up for oneself,

ONLY THOSE WHO PROSPERED: euod-oō , of things, prosper, be successful

THERE IS NO COLLECTING OF MONEY AT ANY ASSEMBLY.

collecta (conl- ), ae, f. (orig. adj., sc. pecunia) [colligo].
I. A contribution in money: “a convivā exigere,”
II. A meeting, assemblage: “.


IF YOU SAY THAT THIS IS A COMMAND YOU CALL PAUL A LIAR

2Cor. 8:8 I speak NOT by COMMANDMENT,
.....but by occasion of the forwardness of others,
.....and to prove the sincerity of your love.
2Cor. 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ,
.....that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor,
.....that ye through his poverty might be rich.
2Cor. 8:10 And herein I give my ADVICE: for this is EXPEDIENT for
.....YOU, who have begun before, not only to do,
.....but also to be forward a year ago


There is no evidence that the Corinthians ever passed plate but voluntarily met the needs: Paul left a pattern that "if he will not work neither shall he eat." He recognized that one should live (eat) by his EVANGELISM but he knew that you cannot SELL the Free water of the Word. That is still true.

2Cor. 8:11 Now therefore perform the doing of it;
.....that as there was a readiness to will, [THEIR idea in the first place]
.....so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.
2Cor. 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind,
.....it is accepted according to that a man HATH,
.....and not according to that he hath not.


There is NO apostasy which is not built upon the foundation of making long prayers (hymns) in order to fleece the widows. One of the ugliest is to convince old people to sell their valuables and give it to him because his plan is to plant 60,000 congregations all imbibing the same false teachings.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Dec 4, 2016 11:12 PM


 
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Stan
(no login)
68.53.71.114

Re: God gave NO FUNDING and no ROLE

December 6 2016, 1:21 PM 

Donnie, now that I have answered your 9 questions in addition to previous ones, will you answer my one question from a few weeks ago? The longer you dodge it, the more revealing! Here is the question again:

Is it o.k. to not support any local church of Christ?

Galatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

 
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Humility
(no login)
23.117.130.209

Re: God gave NO FUNDING and no ROLE

December 6 2016, 9:12 PM 

There's a difference in a "local Church of Christ" and a "local church of Christ."

Go study.

 
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Stan
(no login)
68.53.71.114

Re: God gave NO FUNDING and no ROLE

December 7 2016, 8:18 AM 

Repeat: Toro!Toro!Toro!:


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Dec 7, 2016 3:16 PM


 
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Stan
(no login)
68.53.71.114

Re: God gave NO FUNDING and no ROLE

December 7 2016, 3:39 PM 

Now it looks like Ken is trying to help Donnie delay and dodge answering the question. happy.gif

Looks like Humility is trying to help Donnie delay and dodge answering the question. happy.gif
Humility, I would be happy if Donnie would answer either one of these:

Is it o.k. to not support any local Church of Christ? (How originally posted.)
Is it o.k. to not support any local church of Christ?

The longer Donnie delays and dodges answering the question the more revealing.

Galatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

 
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Stan
(no login)
68.53.71.114

Re: God gave NO FUNDING and no ROLE

December 7 2016, 11:51 AM 

Deleted for Repeat, Repeat, Repeat: Toro!Toro!Toro!:

You might as well give it up.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Dec 7, 2016 6:39 PM


 
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Stan
(no login)
68.53.71.114

Re: God gave NO FUNDING and no ROLE

December 7 2016, 3:45 PM 

It appears I have become an enemy to Ken and Donnie because they hide my message. happy.gif

Galatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

 
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Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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