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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: I AM for Jesus and God

January 1 2017, 7:54 PM 

Dave,

1. You need to read and study the expression "ego eimi" ["I am"] used in several passages in NT Greek texts.

2. When you say "Jesus and God" -- which is correctly stated anyway -- does not equate to "Jesus IS God." Does it, Dave? The words "and" and "is" are not the same, correct?

3. John 8:58 is not about Jesus saying: "I am God"; rather that "I am" [the Messiah that God sent]. That is the crux of the entire chapter of John 8.

----- The Father sent me (John 8:16).
----- The Father that sent me beareth witness of me (John 8:18).
----- ... about knowing the Father and me (John 8:19).
----- My Father hath taught me (John 8:28).
----- I speak that which I have seen with my Father (John 8:38).
----- I proceeded forth and came from God (John 8:42).
----- Neither came I of myself, but he sent me (John 8:42).
----- I honour my Father (John 8:49).
----- Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56).


None of the above speaks of Jesus as God. Jesus was not lying when he said: "I proceeded forth and came from God" (John 8:42). Think about that remarkable claim that Jesus made!!!

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: The Father is God; Jesus is the Son of God

January 2 2017, 12:34 AM 

Dave,

Hebrews 1:8 must be read in CONTEXT of the entire chapter. Acknowledge, first, that there are two primary subjects in this chapter:

1. God the Father spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets (v. 1).
2. The Son of God by whom God the Father has spoken in these last days (v. 2).
3. God the Father said: "Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool (v.13).
4. The Son of God is sitting down on the right hand of God the Father (v. 3).
5. God the Father said: "Thou are my Son; I have begotten thee" (v. 5).
6. God the Father said: "I will be to him a Father; he shall be to me a Son" (v.5).
7. Make no mistake: God the Father is NOT the Son of God; vice versa.
8. God the Father is the only one true God (declared in several passages in the Bible).

[8] But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
[9] Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.


You are taking verse 8 out of context. You are also making the Scripture conform to your predisposed belief in the Trinity, rather than letting the Scripture prove that such a doctrine is man-concocted:

1. The exlamation "O" in "O God" is not in the original NT Greek text. Trinitarian translators included it for the reason of being able to address "the Son of God" as "O God." Otherwise, without regard for English grammar, it would simply say: "Thy throne, god, is for ever and ever."

2. The English language makes a clear distinction between "God" and "god"' but...

3. The biblical languages cannot make the distinction between "GOD" and "god." The word may refer to God the Father or to people with God's authority on earth and important people such as kings and rulers.

4. We have already listed references above that clearly indicate that Christ is seen to be lesser than God the Father.

5. Those references match another passage when Jesus said, "I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28).

6. The context must determine whether Christ is being referred to as the Supreme Being or just a man with great authority. We read that Christ, called “God,” himself has a “God.” The very next verse, Hebrews 1:9, says, “therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.” Thus, Christ cannot be the supreme God, because the supreme God does not have a God. Furthermore, Christ’s God “set” him above others and “anointed” him. This makes it abundantly clear that Christ is rather a man with great authority under another God.

7. It is true that Christ has a God. "Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..." (II Cor. 1:3).

8. It is true that Christ has a God. "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory..." (Eph. 1:17).

9. The entire chapter is about the kingdom of Christ, His throne, of which he is the ruler or king (god). Moreover, God the Father is essentially stating to Christ: "I am God -- thy [your] God"; see verse 9.


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

'I am' the Messiah, Jesus said.

January 1 2017, 7:15 PM 

Bill,

1. John 1:1 does not teach that "one man, Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:15) "had been with God as God from the foundation of the world" -- as you assume. The mediator between God and men is "the man Christ Jesus" (I Tim. 2:5).

2. Paul, the blind man and Jesus all used the same expression in NT Greek: "ego eimi" ["I am"] (Acts 26:28,29; John 9:8,9; John 8:58). The "I am" did not make Paul or the blind man or Jesus into God. Looks like you're making an assumption with the "ego eimi" phrase.

3. Still CONTEXT, Bill. Who "proceeded forth and came from God" (John 8:41-42, KJV)? Was it God or was it the Messiah? That's what the whole chapter is all about. Abraham knew about the prophesied Messiah. Jesus answered it correctly: "I am" [that Messiah of God].

 
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Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

Proof of Why I Say This Place is Evil

January 1 2017, 8:00 PM 

Donnie said "2. Paul, the blind man and Jesus all used the same expression in NT Greek: "ego eimi" ["I am"] (Acts 26:28,29; John 9:8,9; John 8:58). The "I am" did not make Paul or the blind man or Jesus into God. Looks like you're making an assumption with the "ego eimi" phrase.

Donnie, YOU KNOW that is not the same phrase, even it is using the same NT Greek. Paul DOES NOT make the claim that he is the "I AM." Furthermore, you know, by looking at the verse in Acts 26, John 9 are totally different than the one in John 8 where Jesus claims to be the "I AM" and which God claimed also in Exodus.

Donnie, this is how I know that you know that you are teaching falsely...
The phrase in John 9 only is the blind man claiming that he is the same man that used to be blind. He never, and YOU KNOW THIS, made a claim for DIETY. The blind man merely said "...I am he" (the one who used to be blind). The same for Paul in Acts 26. Paul is NOT claiming to be an equal with God as Jesus is doing in John 8
I would call you an outright liar Donnie, but that is too meek of a term.
You are DELIBERATELY DENYING God's Word.

In John 1 it says that all things were made through Him (Logos, Jesus-to-Be), so there is no ASSUMPTION by John of Jesus being with God in the beginning.
John 1
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life...

NO ASSUMPTION....it is STATED. IT IS THE WORD OF GOD.
So call on your Greek text but it YOU KNOW BETTER, AND SO DOES KEN.

 
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Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

To Know Better But to DENY IS EVIL

January 1 2017, 8:07 PM 

Donnie said "3. John 8:58 is not about Jesus saying: "I am God"; rather that "I am" [the Messiah that God sent]. That is the crux of the entire chapter of John 8.

John 8 DOES say that Jesus Himself is claiming to be the Messiah that God sent....but MUCH MUCH MORE.

John 8
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus is ALSO not merely making the claim, but SAYING that He was in existence even before our father Abraham. John states in John 1 the same claim that all things were made THROUGH HIM. Jesus is making the same claim that His Father, God made in Exodus.


I AM! I AM!I AM! I AM!I AM! I AM!I AM! I AM!


 
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Bill
(no login)
99.179.116.207

Back to the Same

January 1 2017, 8:32 PM 

So it's once again back to the same old schoolyard argument:

Jesus is God.
No He ain't.
Yes He is.
No He ain't.
Is
Ain't
Is
Ain't
Yadda yadda yadda... happy.gif

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Back to the Same

January 1 2017, 9:32 PM 

Bill,

Thanks for participating in "the same old schoolyard argument." And ending it with: "Yadda yadda yadda... happy.gif"

Have a good evening. Happy New Year!!!

 
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Bill
(no login)
99.179.116.207

Re: Back to the Same

January 1 2017, 9:56 PM 

Happy New year to you, too. happy.gif

 
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Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

READ IT

January 2 2017, 1:24 PM 

Donnie you underlined and enlarged the font for the Scripture in Hebrews 1

"...therefore God, even thy God..."

The author is not calling Jesus merely Jesus and not "a god"......he is calling Him God.

In verse 8 Hebrews 1 you said that if you took out the "O" in "O God", then it would only read, and I am quoting you; "Thy throne, god, is for ever and ever."

WRONG!

If you took out the "O" in "O God" then it would BE "Thy throne, God, is for ever and ever." The author did not/would not lower the Deity of Jesus by merely equating Him as another god. You are the one who wants to lower the Greatness of Jesus by making him just another god. It cannot be done! Why do you continue to want Jesus to be "another" god? There is only ONE God. That is God and Jesus. I know I know, Donnie. You believe I sound confusing. One God, both God Himself and Jesus. Jesus WAS/IS has ALWAYS BEEN a part of God. That is why God made Adam and Eve to have children in likeness of Him giving us Jesus. Jesus is the ONLY Begotten Son, being FROM and OF God. We have children, they are not us but yet they are OF US. Jesus is no different, yet even greater than us because He is OF GOD. None of us can claim anything as special as the bond between God and Jesus.

Oh, by the way, this author in verse 8 is quoting none other than THE AUTHOR OF ALL....GOD. God calls Jesus God. HE WOULD NOT downgrade His Only Begotten Son to just another god. YES, John, the author in verse 9 also states that God is the God of Jesus (God). You can deny it Donnie, but it is what it is.
The King, God, has also bestowed upon His Son Jesus the title of GOD. God can do this if He so desires. Donnie, you need to remember that God can do ANYTHING HE DESIRES and because of His Unending and Intense love for Jesus, JESUS IS GOD.









 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: READ IT (That's right: Do it, Dave)

January 2 2017, 3:01 PM 

[Just briefly] Dave,

(1) The exclamation "O" is not in the original NT Greek text. You're capitalizing "God" based on the English grammatical structure. In biblical languages, the word for "god" can mean "ruler" or "king." The context in Hebrews 1 is unequivocally speaking of Christ's kingdom.

Remember God the Father telling His Son "Thy throne...."?????

Remember His Son "being made so much better than the angels" (v. 4)?????

Remember God to His Son: "...anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows" (v. 9)????? "Above thy fellows" justifies Jesus as being "King of kings."

Verse 8 has nothing to do with God the Father making Jesus as a co-God. Rather, he was addressing Jesus in terms of his being the "god" or "ruler" or "king" of his kingdom.

(2) You thought you were using verse 9 to prove that Jesus is the co-God. But you are obviously misreading it. "... therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

(2.a) "God" in the passage refers to God the Father, not Jesus.
(2.b) "Thy God" in the passage refers to the Father as Jesus' God.
(2.c) "Hath anointed thee" shows that God anointed Jesus.
(2.d) "Hath anointed thee" shows that Jesus (as God, you say) did not anoint Jesus.
(2.e) "Above thy fellows" applies to Jesus being above other kings and rulers.
(2.f) No, it doesn't say that Jesus-God anointed "thee" (Jesus).


 
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Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

Let Others Speak

January 2 2017, 3:53 PM 

Wrong Donnie. Hebrews vs 8 is GOD HIMSELF calling His OWN SON God, and then the author of Hebrews calls Jesus God. "... therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." "...therefore God..." is Jesus being called God. "...even thy God..." is the Father God. Donnie, you aren't even trying to understand this. The reference to "...even thy God..." is our God anointing God/Jesus.

"God Hebrews 1:9. . . thy God--JEROME, AUGUSTINE, and others translate Psalms 45:7 , "O God, Thy God, hath anointed thee," whereby Christ is addressed as God. --Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible--

Hebrews 1:8 Deity is here ascribed to the Son of God; he is expressly called God; for the words will not bear to be rendered, "thy throne is the throne of God, or thy throne is God"; or be supplied thus, "God shall establish thy throne": nor are the words an apostrophe to the father, but are spoken to the king, the subject of the psalm, who is distinguished from God the Father, being blessed and anointed by him; and this is put out of all doubt by the apostle, who says they are addressed "to the Son", who is not a created God, nor God by office, but by nature; for though the word "Elohim" is sometimes used of those who are not gods by nature; yet being here used absolutely, and the attributes of eternity, and most perfect righteousness, being ascribed to the person so called, prove him to be the true God; and this is the reason why his throne is everlasting, and his sceptre righteous, and why he should be worshipped, served, and obeyed.--John Gill Exposition of the Bible--

The Gill commentary makes a point to show a ONENESS as God, yet Jesus being distinct as the Son.

--Matthew Henry--"But observe, How much greater things are said of Christ by the Father. Here two passages of scripture are quoted.[1.] One of these is out of Ps. 45:6, Ps. 45:7 , where God declares of Christ, First, His true and real divinity, and that with much pleasure and affection, not grudging him that glory: Thy throne, O God. Here one person calls another person God, O God. And, if God the Father declares him to be so, he must be really and truly so; for God calls persons and things as they are. And now let who will deny him to be essentially God at their peril, but let us own and honour him as God; for, if he had not been God, he had never been fit to have done the Mediator’s work nor to have worn the Mediator’s crown. Secondly, God declares his dignity and dominion, as having a throne, a kingdom, and a sceptre of that kingdom. He has all right, rule, authority, and power, both as the God of nature, grace, and glory, and as Mediator; and so he is fully adequate to all the intents and purposes of his mediatorial kingdom. Thirdly, God declares the eternal duration of the dominion and dignity of Christ, founded upon the divinity of his person: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, from everlasting to everlasting, through all the ages of time, maugre all the attempts of earth and hell to undermine and overthrow it, and through all the endless ages of eternity, when time shall be no more."

Donnie, you missed the mark completely.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Let Others Speak [Including the Pope and the RCC]

January 2 2017, 4:45 PM 

Dave,

You are taking verses 8 and 9 out of context. And you're simply relying on the Trinity-biased translators, the Pope's Trinity Creed and his Protestant followers/commentators for their interpretation. (I don't have much time at the moment, but notice below.)

"Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows" (Hebrews 1:9, KJV)

Let's quote the translated passage in simple English -- YOUR WAY:

"... therefore Jesus, even your God, has anointed you [Jesus] with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."

1. Substituting "Jesus" for "God" -- the way Dave wants it.
2. Substituting "for" for "thy" -- the way Dave wants it.
3. Retaining "God" in "even thy God" -- the way Dave wants it.
4. Substituting "has" for "hast" -- the way Dave wants it.
5. Substituting "you" for "thee" -- the way Dave wants it.


How does "Jesus ... has anointed you [Jesus]..." sound to you, Dave?

 
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Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

Quit Digging

January 2 2017, 6:34 PM 

I am not substituting ANYTHING. You, Donnie, are what we call...'in a pickle.' This is KJV and so you can't deny the Word, so you tell me I am relying on a Trinity-based creed. but I actually am only quoting the Word. It is verbatim, and it is the Truth. It is not out of context and it is YOUR God calling Jesus God. So you can continue to TRY and distort the Word, make it confusing, but it is really rather simple. It has nothing to do with anything that Dave wants.

Talk to Ken...
I am doing only that which he attests to doing but actually does not do

I 'Speak that which is written.'

That last sentence about Jesus anointing Jesus is blasphemy. Your logic and foolishness will lead you to destruction.

Hey, Donnie, lets try this....Hebrews 1
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

We know that GOD is speaking here when we see "But unto the Son he saith..."
We also know WHO God is speaking to here. So would God say to Himself "...Thy throne (O) God, is for ever and ever:..."???? Would he say this to Himself right after saying that He is talking to the Son?
happy.gif
Closure
Hebrews 1
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Would the author be talking about God twice when he says "...therefore God, even thy God..."???
Who else could the author be talking about other than Jesus (therefore God) when he specifies "thy God being the God of Jesus.
The verse tells us CLEARLY that God is anointing the Son whom GOD HIMSELF is calling God. God is giving Jesus the Most High Title of God. He can and HAS DONE SO.
Final closure.
happy.gif

Go ahead Donnie, blame it on someone. Make it sounds as confusing as possible. Many have done so in the past. When you are digging, the first step to stop making the hole bigger is to quit digging.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Quit Digging [But, No, Keep Searching]

January 3 2017, 4:59 AM 

Not a problem, Dave, for I'll keep digging (searching the Scripture [John 5:39, KJV]). And I'll keep it simple for you. The passage we both quote is in Hebrews 1 [KJV] and in particular [with English grammatical capitalization and punctuation]:

[8] But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
[9] Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.


In looking at the text in New Testament Greek [with no capitalization and no punctuation], here it is:

[8] yet toward the son the throne of you the god into the eon of the eon the rod of straightness the rod of the kingdom of you.
[9] you love justice and you hate unlawness thru this the god the god of you anoints you olive oil of exulting beyond the partners of you.


1. Trinitarians want God the Father (in verse 8) to really personally address Jesus His Son by calling him "O God" which amounts to saying "O co-God" or "O God Person #2."

2. Trinity-biased translators added the exclamation "O" to make God addressing His Son more dramatic: "O God" (other translations go so far as making the address: "Oh God").

3. Trinity-biased translators did/do not understand the expression "the god" [with the definite article "the"] in Hebrews 1:8,9 when, in fact, it is quite frequently used to refer to God the Father in the Bible. The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob (Gen. 26:24; Gen. 31:42,53; Acts 3:13; numerous others, KJV).

4. Trinity-biased translators added the word "even" in "even thy God" (in verse 9) to make it sound as though God the Father is again addressing Jesus His Son as "God" or co-God. Even if that were correct, the passage would be self-contradictory as that would suggest that "Jesus as God" anointed himself.

5. A simpler and more accurate non-Trinity-influenced translation is:

[8] But about the Son, he says: "God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. [9] You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions."


 
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Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

The Word of God Says that Jesus is God

January 3 2017, 8:41 AM 

Whatever Donnie....I should have know you wouldn't want or accept the Truth. Whether you have an "O" or not with God in Hebrews 1 matters none. Blame it on the Trinity folk or anyone else, take your "even' but God is calling Jesus God and so is the Hebrew's author calling Jesus God. Why?


Because Jesus IS God. All Scripture attest to this.

 
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Bill
(no login)
99.179.116.207

Re: Quit Digging [But, No, Keep Searching]

January 3 2017, 9:41 AM 

I wonder if Donnie thinks that exaggerated font sizes and multicolored text will convince Dave to change his mind and believe Jesus is not God. It hasn't worked for me (and most other people), but I guess Donnie thinks it'll work for Dave. happy.gif

 
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Dave
(no login)
162.229.29.37

Is It Worth It?

January 4 2017, 3:08 PM 

So, Donnie, you want to CHANGE the verse in Hebrews 1 from "8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:..."

to

But about the Son, he says: God is your throne forever and ever,...???

I took out the quotations before God because OUR GOD DID NOT say that. Donnie said that, and no one that I know of, but you, has been anti-christ enough to say that. The meaning is totally different and FALSE. You intentionally and with an evil track of mind change the whole meaning to fit your need. No longer are you wanting to agree that God is calling Jesus God, but even those who have had a hard time accepting that God calls His very Own Son God, they never have the meaning as this speaking of God being the throne. It is speaking of "...Thy throne, O God. Then the Son has an eternal throne, and is divine. The sceptre, etc. He then has a kingdom, and rules it with a righteous scepter. The point is that he (Jesus) is a Divine King with an eternal throne." (People's NT)

You are deliberatley denying God's Word......all in the sake of not wanting to be wrong.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Is It Worth It?

January 4 2017, 5:43 PM 

God's throne was forever and ever. God the FATHER Gave Jesus the Throne of David which will be returned to the Father when Jesus has finished the work of the kingdom on earth.

God quoted Psalm 45:6 before Jesus was given the kingship over His Kingdom, the Church of Christ.

When Jesus was glorified and became Holy Spirit He sat down on the RIGHT hand of the Throne.

Psa. 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

Heb. 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an HIGH PRIEST who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: The Gender-Neutral Movement

January 3 2017, 11:38 AM 

No one can say FROM WHAT we are saved by grace. Jesus said that Parables were to hide truth from the World people from the foundation of the world. Our spirits (minds) have been translated into a heavenly kingdom which DOES NOT COME with observation meaning religious observations not devoted to the Word "which has been written for our LEARNING."

Eph. 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph. 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world,
.....according to the prince of the power of the air,
.....the spirit THAT now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph. 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh,
.....fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind;
.....and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph. 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph. 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins,
.....hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph. 2:6 And hath raised us up together,
.....and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Eph. 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches
.....of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.


God hides the truth which is spiritually discerned IN PLAIN SIGHT.

 
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Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

Glory!

January 4 2017, 11:22 PM 

Can't tell Ken. Always hard to tell meaning with anything you say. Are you agreeing with me? Are the stars aligning, Jupiter is aligning with Mars?

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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