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Where Have The Change Agents Gone?

December 23 2016 at 10:33 PM
Sarge  (no login)
from IP address 68.74.186.218

The "Concerned Members" seem to be content picking each other off these days. They also have turned away from the trusted KJV bible. Perhaps, Donnie can give us an update?

Comments Welcomed.


 
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AuthorReply
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Where Have The Change Agents Gone?

December 24 2016, 2:10 AM 

The Change Agents are still out there very busy operating in the brotherhood. They're subtly converting gullible and inept "shepherds" and other "church leaders" ... and transforming and transitioning their "Church of Christ" congregations into Community Churches.

Beware!!! If the Change Agents haven't arrived yet, they may be visiting your congregation soon!

God's Word is inerrant and must be TRUSTED. Translators are human and prone to error; they can be trusted until proven "doctrinally" biased. However, despite a few doctrine-biased passages mistranslated, the KJV remains as the preferred version. I quote passages from the KJV ONLINE.

 
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Sarge
(no login)
68.74.186.218

Re: Where Have The Change Agents Gone?

December 24 2016, 6:25 AM 



Donnie states there are only a few mistranslated pages in the "KJV ONLINE". Perhaps, Donnie does not think the KJV qualifies to be a "BIBLE".

Is Donnie willing to list the mistranslated passages in the KJV bible?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Where Have The Change Agents Gone?

December 24 2016, 9:29 PM 

Sarge,

I think you're misunderstanding some things that I write:

1. I did not say "only a few mistranslated pages in the 'KJV ONLINE.'" The KJV ONLINE matches the published book known as the King James Version of the Bible. For me and you too, it's much easier to copy-and-paste from a .com/.org than to type the passages from a published book.

I'm just as human and prone to error as YOUR REVERED translators. Come on, Sarge, let's just agree -- that typing quotes from a published book is more difficult than doing an online copy-and-paste of the same text.

2. No, I have not said that the KJV does not qualify to be a 'BIBLE'; wrong assumption on your part, Sarge. In fact, I have said before that the KJV is my favorite version of the Bible. I also mentioned above that the KJV remains as my preferred version. Aren't there hundreds of translations of the Bible? I can't name one that's better than the KJV. So, calm down, and please remember that.

3. Yes, Donnie is willing to list the mistranslated passages in the KJV Bible. But the problem is huge -- how willing is the reader/viewer/Bible student to study these mistranslated passages???????? I've already covered some of these mistranslations, but no one from the complainers has been willing to investigate and really study.

 
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Bill
(no login)
99.179.116.207

Re: Where Have The Change Agents Gone?

December 24 2016, 8:53 AM 

When a person says that a Bible passage has been translated incorrectly because it is "doctrinally" biased, it means the passage clashes with that person's own peculiar theology. That person demonstrates his own bias with the following attitude, "All passages with which I take issue have obviously been mistranslated."

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Where Have The Change Agents Gone?

December 24 2016, 11:39 AM 

Please Translate with no help!

Is. 3:1 For, behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, doth take away from Jerusalem and from Judah the stay and the staff, the whole stay of bread, and the whole stay of water,
Is. 3:2 The mighty man, and the man of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the prudent, and the ancient,
Is. 3:3 The captain of fifty, and the honourable man, and the counsellor, and the cunning artificer, and the eloquent orator.
Is. 3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.

Isa. 3:16 Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:
Is. 3:17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts.
Is. 3:18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,
Is. 3:19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,
Is. 3:20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,
Is. 3:21 The rings, and nose jewels,
Is. 3:22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,
Is. 3:23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails.
Is. 3:24 And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.
Is. 3:25 Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.
Is. 3:26 And her gates shall lament and mourn; and she being desolate shall sit upon the ground.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Where Have The Change Agents Gone?

December 24 2016, 10:22 PM 

Ken,

You know fully well that Bill cannot handle that task. Even if he has help from those translators of the NIV. His huge problem is that he gets the human/error-prone translators confused with the INSPIRED original authors of the books of the Bible. Just as he is very confused with the identities of: (1) God the Father and (2) His Son Jesus Christ. He gets easily in trouble when he interchangeably mistakes a father-son or an uncle-nephew relationship.

Here's a short list of NIV translators and their varying theological background and differences:
E. Leslie Carlson, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.
Edmund P. Clowney, Westminster Theological Seminary.
Ralph Earle, Nazarene Theological Seminary
Kenneth S. Kantzer, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.
John H. Stek, Calvin Theological Seminary.
Craig Blomberg, Alliance of Renewal Churches (Charismatic).
Gordon Fee, Pentecostal.
Karen H. Jobes, Evangelical Presbyterian Church.
Philip S. Clapp. Western Evangelical Seminary. United Methodist.
----------------
----------------

Obviously, Bill has no regard for the originality of manuscripts and for those who quoted from them during their times. For sure, he regards very highly translators of the 15th, 16th, 17th and later centuries with varying theological backgrounds as being inspired and error-proof and doctrinally sound and unbiased.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Where Have The Change Agents Gone?

December 24 2016, 12:00 PM 

Bill "All passages with which I take issue have obviously been mistranslated."

Find a translation which refutes:

Rom. 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, [Theos]
.....even the Father
.....OF our Lord [Kurios] Jesus Christ.

1Cor. 8:5 For though there be that are called gods,
.....whether in heaven or in earth,
.....(as there be gods many, and lords many,)

1Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but ONE God [Theos], the Father,
.....of whom are all things, and we in him;
and one Lord [Kurios] Jesus Christ,
.....by whom are all things, and we by him.


 
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Sarge
(no login)
68.74.186.218

Re: Where Have The Change Agents Gone?

December 24 2016, 12:30 PM 



Ken, I consider you to be a CHANGE AGENT in the Church of Christ. I have doubts that you really belong in the Church of Christ. I think you just ride that pony so you have a platform.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Where Have The Change Agents Gone?

December 24 2016, 1:48 PM 

1. Define the meaning of a "Church of Christ."
2. What does a Church OF Christ believe as articles of faith?
3. What does a Church of Christ believe about "worship"? Define the acts.
4. What is the commanded funding of a Church of Christ?
5. Define the authorized "staff" of a local assembly.
6. Since Corinth is your "pattern" If YOUR congregation is destructive, do you command that people attend?

1Cor. 11:17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
1Cor. 11:17Geneva Now in this that I declare, I prayse you not, that ye come together, not with profite, but with hurt.
1Cor. 11:17NIVIn the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good.


DETERIOR lower, inferior, worse], worse, poorer, meaner (freq. and class.—for syn. cf.: malus, injustus, improbus; pravus, nequam, corruptus, perversus;

Hor. S. 1.3.107 4 The alternative with Ruso was either ruin from extortion, or misery from listening to his writings. If his wretched creditors could not pay him, then they were condemned to hear him read his works. Perhaps some might prefer considering historias used in the sense of "tedious narration," and refer it to the long schedule of the items in his account. Audit. Asinius Pollio first introduced the custom of reciting one's own compositions at Rome.

Base your finding on Commands, Examples and inferences from the Bible. Inferences refer to what is DONE or imposed. The Bible and founders of denominations always used the CENI principle.

Prove from early church history that anyone else agrees with you greatly-inflated PATTERN.

Prove from the historic scholars including the Restoration Movement that your church is a "restored church." If you dismiss Isaiah, Calvin originated the Movement to Restore the Church of Christ.

Is. 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

 
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Sarge
(no login)
68.74.186.218

Re: Where Have The Change Agents Gone?

December 24 2016, 1:53 PM 



And the font swells!happy.gif

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Where Have The Change Agents Gone?

December 24 2016, 1:59 PM 

Still not large enough to get you to DEFINE a Church of Christ with the demand that I agree with the later day slants.

 
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Bill
(no login)
99.179.116.207

Re: Where Have The Change Agents Gone?

December 24 2016, 2:25 PM 

Many Americans touring foreign countries believe that very loudly speaking English to natives who don't know English will make them understand better.

Donnie and Ken adopt a similar tactic: they believe that greatly exaggerating the font size will induce people to believe their peculiar theology. happy.gif

 
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Bill
(no login)
99.179.116.207

Re: Where Have The Change Agents Gone?

December 24 2016, 1:25 PM 

More specifically, when Donnie says that a Bible passage has been translated incorrectly because it is "doctrinally" biased, Donnie really means the passage clashes with his own peculiar version of theology. Donnie demonstrates his bias by adopting the attitude that all passages with which he takes issue allegedly have been "mistranslated." No, there's nothing wrong with the translations; Donnie's bias compels him to reject them.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Where Have The Change Agents Gone?

December 24 2016, 1:56 PM 

The Holy Spirit is the Holy Wind or Holy Breath of God: it is NOT a Ghost or the "spirit of a DEAD person" usually a DEMONIC SPIRIT. Not to worry, since the 1611 translators advised that we consult many translaltions. It is pretty easy to become Gnostic and define him as Satanic or a Demon such as KAIROS defining the new Mother Churches planting Daughters. When they claim that "a" spirit told them to divert my "laying by in store" from College c. 1954-57 and all others up to today, they are ghosts or demons. The ZOE instrumental discorders do not grasp that Zoe is also Lucifer Scripture calls the "singing and harp-playing prostitute." Lucifer is invited in Spiritual Formation including Lectio-Divina which enlightens once-Christian universities and a few KEY congregations.

What is Crisping Pin?


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Dec 24, 2016 2:13 PM


 
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Sarge
(no login)
68.74.186.218

Re: Where Have The Change Agents Gone?

December 24 2016, 3:06 PM 



Ken, you cooked your goose when you suggested the singers would BURN for singing in Church. That's a fact. That is the work of a CHANGE AGENT.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Where Have The Change Agents Gone?

December 24 2016, 4:09 PM 

I didn't say that singers would burn in hell. The PATTERN is to speak or read that which is written for our LEARNING and especially musical (noise makers) instruments in prophecy and fulfillment connected to 1) refusing to let God speak through HIS songs and sermons, and 3) connected with BURNING. Why not just obey the Commands and Examples and obey the command to PREACH the WORD by READING the Word.

If people for HIRE cannot "Tarry with JESUS for one hour" who would expect that they are not "angels of light." We noted that Jude and The Book of Enoch speaking of the Mount Sinai musical idolatry says that they are FOREORDAINED to that tempattion in their 40 day plans..

Psa. 106:6 We have sinned with our fathers, we have committed iniquity, we have done wickedly.
Psa. 106:7 Our fathers understood not thy wonders in Egypt; they remembered not the multitude of thy mercies; but provoked him at the sea, even at the Red sea.
Psa. 106:8 Nevertheless he saved them for his name’s sake, that he might make his mighty power to be known.
Psa. 106:9 He rebuked the Red sea also, and it was dried up: so he led them through the depths, as through the wilderness.
Psa. 106:10 And he saved them from the hand of him that hated them, and redeemed them from the hand of the enemy.
Psa. 106:11 And the waters covered their enemies: there was not one of them left.
Psa. 106:12 Then believed they his words; they sang his praise.
Psa. 106:13 They soon forgat his works; they waited not for his counsel:
Psa. 106:14 But lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, and tempted God in the desert.
Psa. 106:15 And he gave them their request; but sent leanness into their soul.
Psa. 106:16 They envied Moses also in the camp, and Aaron the saint of the LORD.
Psa. 106:17 The earth opened and swallowed up Dathan, and covered the company of Abiram.
Psa. 106:18 And a fire was kindled in their company; the flame burned up the wicked.
Psa. 106:19 They made a calf in Horeb, and worshipped the molten image.
Psa. 106:20 Thus they changed their glory into the similitude of an ox that eateth grass.
Psa. 106:21 They forgat God their saviour, which had done great things in Egypt;
Psa. 106:22 Wondrous works in the land of Ham, and terrible things by the Red sea.
Psa. 106:23 Therefore he said that he would destroy them, had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach, to turn away his wrath, lest he should destroy them.
Psa. 106:24 Yea, they despised the pleasant land, they believed not his word:
Psa. 106:25 But murmured in their tents, and hearkened not unto the voice of the LORD


murmur murmur, roar, rushing, crashing, crash, rumbling: et dulcedo orationis, Of wind-instruments: “cornuum,” the sound, Hor. C. 2, 1, 17: inflati buxi, of the tibia, Ov. M. 14, 537: “aurium,” a singing in the ears,

Amos and Stephen show that being turned over to BABYLONIANISM for captivity and death was facilitated when God GAVE THEM KINGS IN HIS ANGER




 
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Bill
(no login)
99.179.116.207

Re: Where Have The Change Agents Gone?

December 24 2016, 4:41 PM 

Ken said, "I didn't say that singers would burn in hell." No, Ken just implied that singing is all "connected with burning," which as much as says, "Them sinning singers really gonna burn big-time, yee haw!!"

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Where Have The Change Agents Gone?

December 24 2016, 7:20 PM 

Lying can also get you burned. If you preach that there is any command, example or remote inference that God called the NOT-ABANDONED out of the REST He gave them for group singing with or without instruments you are lying about Scripture and most church history.

The Spirit OF CHRIST in Jeremiah 23 defined despising the Word or blasphemy by saying that God commanded something He did not command. No one has introduced singing (c. ad 373) without Purpose Driving Discord.

There is something of DNA Proportions about people who use "music to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter" proven by silencing the Voice of the Victims. Regular, straight and adult people who impose disturbing MUSIC to replace the absolute definition of the ASSEMBLY as School (only) of the Word (only) as the ONE-PIECE PATTERN from the wilderness onward.

kōma , atos, to, (perh. cogn. with keimai, koimaō) A.deep sleep, metaph., of the effect of music

stŭpor , ōris, m. stupeo, I.numbness; dulness, insensibility, stupidity, stupor, stupefaction; astonishment, wonder, amazement

Pind. P. 1 Golden lyre, rightful joint possession of Apollo and the violet-haired Muses, to which the dance-step listens, the beginning of splendid festivity; and singers obey your notes, whenever, with your quivering strings, you prepare to strike up chorus-leading preludes.
...Even powerful Ares, setting aside the rough spear-point, warms his heart in repose; your SHAFTS charm the minds even of the gods, by virtue of the skill of Leto's son and the deep-bosomed Muses. But those whom Zeus does not love are stunned with terror when they hear the cry of the Pierian Muses, on earth or on the irresistible sea;


Lynn Anderson etal derive their verbage from WICCA and use Discipling Techniques

-Eur. Hipp. 526 Eros, god of love, distilling liquid desire down upon the eyes,
bringing sweet pleasure to the souls
of those against whom you make war,

never to me may you show yourself to my hurt nor ever come but in due measure and harmony. [530] For the shafts neither of fire nor of the stars exceed the SHAFT of Aphrodite, which Eros, Zeus's son, hurls forth from his hand.


Exposing witches can get you hurt.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Where Have The Change Agents Gone?

December 24 2016, 2:58 PM 

Bill Donnie and Ken adopt a similar tactic: they believe that greatly exaggerating the font size will induce people to believe their peculiar theology.

Some people are hard of hearing so you have to increase the sound. Some people CANNOT hear and some people do not WANT to hear. So, we go over their heads hoping that there might be ONE being out there who can confess that Jesus the SON is not Jehovah the FATHER. I will stand on the watchtower waiting for a candle-power flicker. But, that is not my job.

John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Acts 4:18 And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.
Acts 4:19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
Acts 4:20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Jesus in John 17 made it clear if you just Copy and Paste the Word as He Copied and Spoke only what He heard from God's Breath, you will never become Senior Pulpit Pastor or Cult leader. So, when you see abuse of Biblical Proportions just rejoice and be glad. In the words of my father, "I have waited too late to die young."

[linked image]

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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