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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: How should the congregation be ruled?

January 15 2017, 2:16 AM 

Sarge,

This is the trend in "progressive" [changing] churches of Christ. Here's one way to test this somewhat impressive title of "Pastor." If your congregation has gone "progressive," address or greet your "Senior Minister" or "Preaching Minister" [as in]: "Pastor Sharpton, how are you this morning?"

"Pastor" Max Lucado of Oak Hills Church [which dropped the name "of Christ" under his watch] is well known. Wikipedia: Lucado was named "America's Pastor" by Christianity Today magazine and in 2005 was named by Reader's Digest as "The Best Preacher in America."

(Speaking of Lucado, read something about him and his political stance. I'd be interested in Dave asking Max Lucado if he voted for Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton this recent election. The title of the article is: "Why Max Lucado Broke His Political Silence for Trump" at this link: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/march/8.58.html

This trend. however, is not as popular or as culture-driven as the "progressive" move by the Change Agents in the brotherhood to transform or transition certain church of Christ congregations to Community Church-ism.

More can be said about certain church of Christ congregations emulating Baptist and other Protestant Churches in regard to addressing the "preacher" as (or embracing the title of) "Pastor."

 
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Sarge
(no login)
68.74.186.218

Re: How should the congregation be ruled?

January 15 2017, 1:35 PM 


A pastor is always a minister, while a minister is not always a pastor.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: How should the congregation be ruled?

January 15 2017, 5:24 PM 

Let's be more specific, Sarge. In what sense are you making that statement?

1. In the Baptist Church, there is only one pastor [e.g., "Reverend Al Maxey" or "Reverend Max Lucado"] in charge of the congregation, and it has deacons.

2. As you know, in the church of Christ, the N.T. pattern is for the local church to have qualified elders (a.k.a. bishops, pastors/shepherds). A local church may not have enough men to qualify for the office and/or have its own minister/evangelist.

3. Other.

You may be using the term "pastor" and "elder" interchangeably. In that case: "An elder is always a 'minister' [in ministry]; a minister [preacher] may be one of the elders."

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: How should the congregation be ruled?

January 15 2017, 2:49 PM 

They ARE the pastors as "Kings set over us." That is because they were purpose driven to drag the elders off in workshop and NEUTER them. The Hirelings now speak of THE LEADERSHIP which is led by the elders. Rubel Shelly began by saying the elders are the SENIOR MINISTER'S shepherds. However, by virtue of their training and "charisma" the reachers ARE the leaders.

That is because in my Tennessee I have known only one elder who was apt or did teach and He was part of the Lipscomb purging of anyone not a theologian (the study of Apollon). That was about the time the Bible Guru was turned in because he was caught in bed with another man. Especially the Smith Spring's forum had much to say about who got picked by whom. The rise of the Performance Music certifies the claim. I can remember a new hired Music Worship minister replacing the vocational expert made the hair stand up on my neck.

That is also because men with money are selected to fund the new 20/20 vision produced by men such as David Young who speaks of Vision Casting which like Lynn Anderson change and Discipling is WICCA SPEAK.

Donnie can tell about one who threatened and did remove his "church in exile" if he didn't get his way.

 
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Scripture
(no login)
23.117.130.209

Re: How should the congregation be ruled?

January 15 2017, 9:25 PM 

Gender is a huge issue in the Baptist Church since its members tend to be matriarchal. Catholic families are more patriarchal. A Catholic man married to a Baptist woman has his work cut out for him. Other churches have less gender issues. Baptists are very sensitive about gender.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: How should the congregation be ruled?

January 15 2017, 10:27 PM 

From Jesus we know that no one has command rulership over others. Isn't there a qualifier about who rules, how and the meaning of obey?

Heb. 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

The Word is the Logos or regulative principle which excludes the forms of dominance by any of the performing artists. I haven't met an elder who knew that the LOGOS as a term for God who knows that the LOGOS prevents what they do in an institutional, keep the thing running activity.

Lipscomb said that an elder has no more authority after he is recognized than he had before. Lenski interprets Paul's instruction to point out or identify men who are already laboring to exhaustion in preaching and teaching.

If elders decide to do something not Biblical or disturbing, the "thought leaders" vow that you are obligated to OBEY. That is the same psychological violence as claiming that "a" spirit told me to tell you to obey me. They accused J. W. McGarvey of sowing discord for leaving the wreck.


 
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Sarge
(no login)
68.74.186.218

Re: How should the congregation be ruled?

January 16 2017, 9:29 AM 


Very good article. I concur. I try to treat Women is this fashion.


***********************



Question: "What is chivalry? Does the Bible instruct men to be chivalrous?"

Answer: The English word chivalry comes from the Old French word chevalerie, which originated in medieval times and pertained to the code of conduct required for knights. Chivalry is usually thought of as courteous behavior, especially men’s courtesy toward women. In days gone by, chivalry was expected in polite society. But, with cultural norms shifting, it can be difficult to know whether chivalry is still expected or whether it is gone with the wind.

Good manners are always appropriate for both men and women. Ephesians 5:21 tells the church to “submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” So, biblical chivalry starts with a humble spirit and a willingness to put the needs of others before one’s own needs (Romans 12:3; Philippians 2:3). And, while God created men and women equal in value, spirit, and intelligence, He also placed within the male heart a desire to guard and protect the women in his care. God created men and women differently in function and perspective so that we would complement, not compete with one another. Part of a man’s innate bent toward protecting and valuing the beauty of a woman is reflected through chivalrous acts. By deferring to the women in his company—holding doors, helping with coats, rising when she enters—a man is fulfilling that God-instilled part of him that needs to honor female beauty.

First Peter 3:7 alludes to the innate difference between men and woman, instructing husbands to treat their wives with consideration as a “weaker vessel” and a joint-heir to the things of Christ. We might say that husbands are to practice chivalry toward their wives. The term weaker vessel does not mean “inferior person,” as Peter immediately follows the term with the concept of spiritual equality. It this instance, “weaker” is better understood as “delicate without being frail,” much as an antique, highly valued Chinese vase is delicate but not frail. When changing the oil in your car, you would not use such a vase to catch the used oil because the vase is of such high quality. You might pour the used motor oil into an old tin can, which is stronger but not of high quality.

True biblical chivalry builds upon the concept found in 1 Peter 3:7 and expresses itself in dozens of ways by showing honor and deference to women. Chivalry is a way of demonstrating respect for God’s design, not the character of the woman in question. Many women do not conduct themselves in ways that invite chivalry, but that does not excuse rudeness on the man’s part. God’s instruction to women is that they strive for a “gentle and quiet spirit” (1 Peter 3:4). A woman who conducts herself with such kindness and class finds that men often respond to her with acts of chivalry.

Chivalry is a choice men should make. A godly man treats women with respect because he recognizes they are created in the image of God and therefore inherently worthy of courtesy.

Recommended Resource: Manhood Restored: How the Gospel Makes Men Whole by Eric Mason


GotQuestions.org

 
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Sarge
(no login)
68.74.186.218

Re: How should the congregation be ruled?

January 16 2017, 12:32 PM 



Does [ . . . ]?

Peace.


_______________________

Thanks for the article above.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 23.127.32.146 on Jan 16, 2017 1:00 PM


 
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Sarge
(no login)
68.74.186.218

Re: How should the congregation be ruled?

January 16 2017, 1:09 PM 


HOORAY!

[linked image]

 
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Sarge
(no login)
68.74.186.218

Re: How should the congregation be ruled?

January 17 2017, 10:58 AM 


"Chivalry is a choice men should make"

Just saying, Donnie really protects Script....?

happy.gif

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: How should the congregation be ruled?

January 18 2017, 2:08 AM 

Sarge, that's a great quote: I agree.

Protect Script from what? Let's not worry ... Script can take care of himself.

 
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Scripture
(no login)
23.117.130.209

Re: How should the congregation be ruled?

January 16 2017, 9:51 PM 

Pastor literally means Shepherd. Churches of Christ accept elders as church authority and so don't like it to applied to preachers. Figuratively any good example can be shepherding. May we all seek to set good examples to save the sheep fold.

 
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Sarge
(no login)
68.74.186.218

Re: How should the congregation be ruled?

January 17 2017, 10:35 AM 



Script, you really need to change your handle from "Scripture" to "Script's Opinions". JMHO

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: How should the congregation be ruled?

January 18 2017, 2:23 AM 

Sarge,

You said recently that you joke a lot. So, are you joking now or is something really troubling you? happy.gif

I agree with Scripture that "pastor" and "shepherd" have the same meaning biblically speaking, although I think that in the Baptist Churches, their one "pastor" is the one "elder" who is over their "deacons."

 
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Scripture
(no login)
23.117.130.209

Re: How should the congregation be ruled?

January 18 2017, 9:20 AM 

In Acts 20, Paul called the elders together so that they might more adequately lead the church.

He said that their job (elders) was to "pastor" (shepherd) the flock through their oversight (as bishop [episcopos], overseer). Look around verse 28. All three "positions" in this passage refer to the same "office" (work).

Baptists have it right that "rule" (leadership) should be congregational, since hierarchies historically gave rise to traditionalism and priestly abuse. Churches of Christ share congregational rule in common with Baptists.

To prevent abuse that elders might bring to the congregation, "office" and "rule" need to be carefully studied. It's as wrong for an elder to be abusive and overbearing as it is a "pastor" in the Baptist Church.

What the Baptist Churches and Churches of Christ share in common is the role of "the" preacher in church turmoil. Elders can prevent lop-sided rule by the preacher in the congregation, even as "deacons" can curb "pastor" abuse in the Baptist Churches. Every power needs to be so limited.

There is wide latitude in the operations of elders in the Churches of Christ. Some are congregationally chosen, while other elderships constitute self-appointing powers. There are three centers of power, normally speaking, each which can check the other. There is the preacher and staff (minister, "pastor"), there is the elder (or deacon in the Baptist Church), there is the congregation which forms the third partner. All in all, Paul says that we are all "to be subject one to another" just before he discusses relations between Christ and the church, husband and wife, fathers and children, and masters and slaves. Check latter part of Ephesians 5 and early verses in chapter 6.

I just use the quotes since I don't want to be latitudinal about the use of these terms. No disrespect is intended.




 
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William
(no login)
24.153.50.147

Preachers and Turmoil

January 20 2017, 1:57 AM 

There are about ten words and phrases in the NT that are translated as "preacher" in some version or perversion. Not a single one of them (by my analysis) convey a sense of administrative duty. There is no comparison between the brotherhood of the Churches of Christ and Baptists in this regard. In fact, in Titus 1, Paul compares an elder as God's household manager, or steward, and Paul is very forceful in regard to the responsibility of elders to forcefully deal with controversies.
We hire, or pay, located preachers for reasons good and bad. After they have served a congregation for an acceptable time, reach the maturity implied by "presbyter" - elder, and are otherwise qualified, there is no proscription to them becoming an elder themselves. Practically, there can be and I have witnessed some conflicts of interest when a man is both preacher and elder, but I have also witnessed very effective preacher/elders. My short-sample statistics seem to lead to the conclusion that a located preacher rarely has the kind of long term interest in a congregation that elders do. After all, as professional preachers they are looking to progress, get yearly raises, etc., which means that preachers are likely to relocate. Yes, I know many preachers who spent decades at one congregation and retired there, and then became a regular congregant.
All this is that young men, debate "young" if you must, are certainly not to be "pastors", and it is the specific duty of the pastors to make sure that the preachers adhere to the word. Surely there is no debate among US that there is to be a plurality of pastors, so there should never be a pastor who is responsible for the congregation, who oversees deacons. I have had some opportunity to observe Baptists in this regard and discuss with them, and frankly, they do not understand. A single, in-charge pastor, is what they understand.

 
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Sarge
(no login)
68.74.186.218

Re: How should the congregation be ruled?

January 18 2017, 6:35 AM 



proxy

noun, plural proxies.
1.
the agency, function, or power of a person authorized to act as the deputy or substitute for another.



DONNIE AND SCRIPT, STRANGE, VERY STRANGE, INDEED!

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: How should the congregation be ruled?

January 18 2017, 4:15 PM 

Heredotus Hdt. 6.57 [2]

http://www.piney.com/Heredotus6.html

At each new moon and each seventh day of the first part of the month, a full-grown victim for Apollo's temple, a bushel of barley-meal, and a Laconian quart1 of wine are given to each from the public store, and chief seats are set apart for them at the games. [3] It is their right to appoint whatever citizens they wish to be protectors of foreigners;2

proxeinous. Proxeni are usually citizens of a foreign city who undertook to watch over the interests of the community which they represented, e. g. Callias was Proxenus of Sparta at Athens (cf. viii. 136. 1; Xen. Hell. vi. 3. 4). The Proxenia in these cases seems to have been almost hereditary in character (Thuc. v. 43; vi. 89). It does not appear probable that the kings had the appointment either of these Spartan Proxeni abroad or of the representatives of foreign states in Sparta. Hence P. Monceaux has suggested that these proxeni nominated by the kings were special ones appointed to do the honours of the state to foreigners who had no ordinary representative at Sparta; for some late analogies cf. Smith, Antiquities, i. 978.

Proxy:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pro%2Fcenos&la=greek&can=pro%2Fcenos0&prior=teta/rth#lexicon

 
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Sarge
(no login)
68.74.186.218

Re: How should the congregation be ruled?

January 18 2017, 10:50 PM 


Ken's bread and butter.

Flood the thread.

Muddy the water.

Never answer a direct question.

🌝

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: How should the congregation be ruled?

January 18 2017, 11:56 PM 

In the old "modern" era one might show gratitude for looking up some stuff about PROXY. No? That's ok.

What question did you ask?

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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