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# Jesus Is God, but NOT the Father

March 10 2017 at 11:06 AM

Yes, according to the inspired Word of God
John 5 (KJV)
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

The matter here is that if God is the Father of Jesus (and we know that He is), then even though Jesus is the Son of God, then HE IS ALSO EQUAL TO GOD. EQUAL MEANS = ??? Jesus can't be a lower god, can He? Lower is not equal in mathematics.

The claim that if Jesus is God then He is also the Father, is now debunked, null and void.

Shame on anyone believing that the Savior of the world, Jesus Christ would be just a (g)od.

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Donnie Cruz
23.127.32.146

# Jesus Is God [NO], but NOT the Father [YES]

March 11 2017, 2:58 AM
 The claim that Jesus is God: Nothing in the passage indicates that Jesus is God. "EQUAL MEANS = ???" is not a mathematical formula. "1 God + 1 God + 1 God = 1 God" is a Trinity formula. "3-Gods-in-1" is another Trinity formula. Jesus is the Son of God -- some 45 passages in the NT state that. Jesus is the Son of man -- some 85 passages in the NT state that. Jesus is God -- No (zero) passage in the Bible states that; Trinitarians do. "[M]aking himself equal with God" -- Jesus did not say that. "[M]aking himself equal with God" -- the Jews said that; they wanted to kill him. "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28;10:29) -- that's what Jesus said himself. The Father is "the God" (200 OT and 45 NT references). Jesus is NOT the Father -- correct!
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Dave
162.229.29.37

March 11 2017, 10:20 AM
 John 5 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. WHOMEVER made the claim, the why is not important. The fact that the Jews would make the historical and monumental claim that Jesus is the Son, God is the Father, and that Jesus is equal to God is truthful. The Jews made that claim based on the fact that if they could not prove that Jesus was being presented as equal to God, they in fact had no basis for His death. Explain away Donnie.
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Dave
162.229.29.37

# True Yesterday, True Today

March 11 2017, 12:17 PM
 It also shows you that God can use even the wicked (Jews) to show His Truth. Donnie said "Jesus is God -- No (zero) passage in the Bible states that; Trinitarians do." THat is Donnie generalizing and slandering anyone that disagrees with him....as usual. That, in a nutshell, is why I continue to post and show the Truth here at concernedmembers. Anyone can say anything at anytime, even though it isn't factual.
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Donnie Cruz
23.127.32.146

# Re: True Yesterday, True Today

March 11 2017, 3:33 PM
 Dave, Are you saying that when you disagree with me, you are slandering me just the same? I'm not generalizing; I'm being specific about the fact that there's NO reference in the Scripture stating that Jesus is God. The Scripture is specific (and there are numerous passages to prove it) when it states that the Father is the only true God. Even Ephesians 1:17 is specific about the Father being "the God" [with the definite article "the"]. In fact, Dave, you must accept this truth: that Jesus has a god: "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory...." (Ephesians 1:17).
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Dave
66.112.162.15

# Grow Up

March 11 2017, 6:27 PM
 Quoting Donnie, "I'm not generalizing; I'm being specific about the fact that there's NO reference in the Scripture stating that Jesus is God." Also, Donnie said "No (zero) passage in the Bible states that; Trinitarians do." So, ALL that disagree with you, post passages contrary to what you believe, are Trinitarians??? That is slander, and you are just too immature to confirm it. Need more proof of your immaturity? You said "Are you saying that when you disagree with me, you are slandering me just the same?"
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Donnie Cruz
23.127.32.146

# Re: Grow Up

March 11 2017, 6:58 PM
 Dave, You made the statement first. It's a fair question when I responded to your statement in return. All you need to say is YES or NO and you have the option to explain why. So: "Are you saying that when you disagree with me, you are slandering me just the same?" Evading questions does not benefit you or anyone in a discussion. So, here's another question: What do you think of the TRUTH (God's truth) in the passage I quoted earlier? You ought to know that it debunks your thinking or perception that Jesus, the Son of God, is the Father's co-God. "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory...." (Ephesians 1:17).
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Dave
66.112.162.15

# MATURITY IS NOT ABOUT AGE

March 11 2017, 7:12 PM
 "You made the statement first." Grow up and we will talk.
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Donnie Cruz
23.127.32.146

# Re: MATURITY IS NOT ABOUT AGE

March 11 2017, 11:25 PM
 Growing up? Speak for yourself. Just review your posts and listen to HOW you sound like. When someone hesitates and waits for me to publish some of your not-so-Christ-like messages, what does that mean? And we will talk? Wow! Get real, Dave. Ephesians 1:17 is speaking to you and me: "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory...." (Ephesians 1:17, KJV). There are more passages speaking to you and me: "... "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17, KJV).
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Ken Subltt
24.151.202.16

# Re: Grow Up

March 11 2017, 7:28 PM
 John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. I like that! So I AM the Father and I AM God. Don't let my cat know.
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Donnie Cruz
23.127.32.146

# Re: Grow Up

March 29 2017, 2:31 AM
 "Don't let my cat know." I love it!!!
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Ken Sublett
24.151.202.16

# Is Jesus His Own Grandfather?

March 12 2017, 11:05 AM
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Dave
66.112.162.15

# Some Things Never Change

March 12 2017, 12:47 PM
 I guess that means we will not talk. Is that real enough? Donnie, you have never shown a mature bone towards speaking/debating the word of God. I still recall where you were one of those who was taken off the faithmatters Christian forum board for a time for unchristlike behavior. That behavior hasn't changed. Donnie, you said "When someone hesitates and waits for me to publish some of your not-so-Christ-like messages, what does that mean?' What it means is that you 'hesitate' to publish my messages because you don't like the cold hard facts and even more.....you need time for a good comeback. It is your site. You pay for it and you can do whatever you want, even if isn't in line with what Christ would have you to do. It's called....sin. That is why I have continued to post here. You don't like anyone who gives you the Truth. I just don't like the fact that you represent anything to do with the church o Christ. You don't deserve it. The best thing??? I know for a fact that there are leaders at Madison, both past and present, who laugh at your Donnie because of your deplorable behavior. I will leave it at that.
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Donnie Cruz
23.127.32.146

# Re: Some Things Never Change

March 12 2017, 6:46 PM
 Dave, I don't recall having engaged in any discussion at faithmatters. (I would suggest to Ken to no longer hesitate and wait for me to publish Dave's messages that are doctrinal [true or false] in nature and content.) This would be the accurate statement: "Donnie does not represent anything to do with the LIBERAL, PROGRESSIVE, CULTURE-DRIVEN, Community Church-transitioned 'Church of Christ.'" Now, you're really deviating from discussing the thread you created. Don't worry. There are numerous passages that will teach Bible students that "the Father" is "the God" OF our Lord Jesus Christ [I have shown 2 already]. I will list them later on.
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Donnie Cruz
23.127.32.146

# The Father -- The God of Jesus Christ [What?]

March 13 2017, 12:36 AM
 Dave, Who is "the God" of the Lord Jesus Christ? The following passages from the New Testament deserve to be seriously considered: And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Matt. 27:46, KJV) And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Mark 15:34, KJV) These words spake Jesus..., Father, the hour is come, ... And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent (John 17:1-3, KJV). Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17, KJV) That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Rom. 15:6, KJV) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (I Cor. 8:6, KJV) Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; (II Cor. 1:3, KJV) The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not. (II Cor. 11:31, KJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: (Eph. 1:3, KJV) That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: (Eph. 1:17, KJV) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph. 4:6, KJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (I Pet. 1:3, KJV) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (Rev. 1:5,6, KJV) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. (Rev. 3:12, KJV)[This post is directed to Dave and others who believe that Jesus the Son of God is "God the Son" -- the 2nd Person of the Trinity. Please let him respond first to these scriptures. Thanks.]
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Ken Sublett
24.151.202.16

# Re: The Father -- The God of Jesus Christ [What?]

March 13 2017, 10:48 AM
 Servetus wrote some wonderful material how that Jesus as the SON shares divinity or the Divine Nature and those with a Phd in DIVINITY do not. At the same time the trinitarians demeaned the glory of Jesus and made the Jews and Muslims hate them. So they burned the one who glorified Jesus. That according to Jesus in John is JUST HOW IIT IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE. Understand that Moses was AN elohim but He was not JEHOFAH-ELOHIM the only SPIRITUAL ruler of the universe. The Lord-God always needs to define WHOM is doing the work. The Jews and pseudo-Christians worship the STARRY HOST and not THE Creator of the Host. Ex. 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying, Ex. 20:2 I am the LORD THY God Elohim, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. EXO 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. ISA 45:22 Look unto ME, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. ISA 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. ISA 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me. ISA 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
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Donnie Cruz
23.127.32.146

# Re: The Father -- The God of Jesus Christ [What?]

March 14 2017, 3:20 AM
 Dave, Since you're not "talking," you can still read and study the 14 New Testament passages I quoted in my post just above Ken's post. I've been spending quite a bit of time doing searches using the KJV ONLINE. Although the coming of the Messiah was prophesied in the Old Testament, I do not find "Jesus" or "Christ" in the O.T. But not so in the New Testament where we can learn (especially in the writings of John) about the relationship and communication between Jesus Christ the Son and his Father. The 14 passages [and there may be more] are explicit in declaring that our Lord Jesus Christ has a God -- the Father is his own God. Just like the rest of us. How can Jesus “be God” and “have a God” at the same time? One of the 14 passages clearly states: my Father, your Father; my God, your God (John 20:17).
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Donnie
23.127.32.146

# TRINITY: 'God the Son' vs. SCRIPTURE: 'the Son of God'

March 17 2017, 10:18 PM
 It's man's concoction, invention and falsification --------------------------- vs. ------------------------ the Scripture's reality, originality and truth. That silence is deafening!!!
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Stan
68.53.71.114

# Re: TRINITY: 'God the Son' vs. SCRIPTURE: 'the Son of God'

March 27 2017, 8:48 AM
 This is Stan's first visit in months. I see that the main debate is still over the Trinity, and now that Dave realizes how futile it is for him to keep sharing Scriptures that refute Donnie and Ken's false teaching there is nobody left to fight, Ken and Donnie win in refuting the world and this site can claim victory. BTW, Dave I was experiencing the same issue as you of messages being posted late or not at all. For the record this is being typed/submitted on 3/27/17 at 7:48 a.m. Galatians 4:16 (KJV) Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?
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Scripture
23.117.130.209

# Re: TRINITY: 'God the Son' vs. SCRIPTURE: 'the Son of God'

March 27 2017, 8:21 PM
 Everybody goes on vacations, so even a pause for a few days can be expected. There's also sleep hours, and short day trips. Maintaining a forum requires a great deal of energy and devotion. You might look at a forum like it is a living organism. Sometimes it can run at full speed. Sometimes it gets exhausted and needs to rest. All in all, it is human-like in that it is run by humans. Probably the greatest decision which the forum-keeper must decide is the divide between culture and indecency.
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## ...........................THE BOOK

### What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)