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Jesus Is God, but NOT the Father

March 10 2017 at 11:06 AM
Dave  (no login)
from IP address 66.112.162.15

Yes, according to the inspired Word of God
John 5 (KJV)
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

The matter here is that if God is the Father of Jesus (and we know that He is), then even though Jesus is the Son of God, then HE IS ALSO EQUAL TO GOD. EQUAL MEANS = ??? Jesus can't be a lower god, can He? Lower is not equal in mathematics.

The claim that if Jesus is God then He is also the Father, is now debunked, null and void.

Shame on anyone believing that the Savior of the world, Jesus Christ would be just a (g)od.

 
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AuthorReply
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Jesus Is God [NO], but NOT the Father [YES]

March 11 2017, 2:58 AM 

The claim that Jesus is God:
  1. Nothing in the passage indicates that Jesus is God.

  2. "EQUAL MEANS = ???" is not a mathematical formula.

  3. "1 God + 1 God + 1 God = 1 God" is a Trinity formula.

  4. "3-Gods-in-1" is another Trinity formula.

  5. Jesus is the Son of God -- some 45 passages in the NT state that.

  6. Jesus is the Son of man -- some 85 passages in the NT state that.

  7. Jesus is God -- No (zero) passage in the Bible states that; Trinitarians do.

  8. "[M]aking himself equal with God" -- Jesus did not say that.

  9. "[M]aking himself equal with God" -- the Jews said that; they wanted to kill him.

  10. "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28;10:29) -- that's what Jesus said himself.

  11. The Father is "the God" (200 OT and 45 NT references).

  12. Jesus is NOT the Father -- correct!

 
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Dave
(no login)
162.229.29.37

READ SLOWLY

March 11 2017, 10:20 AM 

John 5
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

WHOMEVER made the claim, the why is not important. The fact that the Jews would make the historical and monumental claim that Jesus is the Son, God is the Father, and that Jesus is equal to God is truthful. The Jews made that claim based on the fact that if they could not prove that Jesus was being presented as equal to God, they in fact had no basis for His death.

Explain away Donnie.


 
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Dave
(no login)
162.229.29.37

True Yesterday, True Today

March 11 2017, 12:17 PM 

It also shows you that God can use even the wicked (Jews) to show His Truth.

Donnie said "Jesus is God -- No (zero) passage in the Bible states that; Trinitarians do."

THat is Donnie generalizing and slandering anyone that disagrees with him....as usual.

That, in a nutshell, is why I continue to post and show the Truth here at concernedmembers. Anyone can say anything at anytime, even though it isn't factual.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: True Yesterday, True Today

March 11 2017, 3:33 PM 

Dave,

Are you saying that when you disagree with me, you are slandering me just the same?

I'm not generalizing; I'm being specific about the fact that there's NO reference in the Scripture stating that Jesus is God.

The Scripture is specific (and there are numerous passages to prove it) when it states that the Father is the only true God. Even Ephesians 1:17 is specific about the Father being "the God" [with the definite article "the"].

In fact, Dave, you must accept this truth: that Jesus has a god:

"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory...." (Ephesians 1:17).

 
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Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

Grow Up

March 11 2017, 6:27 PM 

Quoting Donnie, "I'm not generalizing; I'm being specific about the fact that there's NO reference in the Scripture stating that Jesus is God."
Also, Donnie said "No (zero) passage in the Bible states that; Trinitarians do."

So, ALL that disagree with you, post passages contrary to what you believe, are Trinitarians???

That is slander, and you are just too immature to confirm it.

Need more proof of your immaturity?
You said "Are you saying that when you disagree with me, you are slandering me just the same?"







 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Grow Up

March 11 2017, 6:58 PM 

Dave,

You made the statement first. It's a fair question when I responded to your statement in return. All you need to say is YES or NO and you have the option to explain why. So: "Are you saying that when you disagree with me, you are slandering me just the same?"

Evading questions does not benefit you or anyone in a discussion.

So, here's another question: What do you think of the TRUTH (God's truth) in the passage I quoted earlier? You ought to know that it debunks your thinking or perception that Jesus, the Son of God, is the Father's co-God.

"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory...." (Ephesians 1:17).

 
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Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

MATURITY IS NOT ABOUT AGE

March 11 2017, 7:12 PM 

"You made the statement first."

Grow up and we will talk.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: MATURITY IS NOT ABOUT AGE

March 11 2017, 11:25 PM 

Growing up? Speak for yourself. Just review your posts and listen to HOW you sound like. When someone hesitates and waits for me to publish some of your not-so-Christ-like messages, what does that mean?

And we will talk? Wow! Get real, Dave. Ephesians 1:17 is speaking to you and me:

"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory...." (Ephesians 1:17, KJV).

There are more passages speaking to you and me:

"... "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17, KJV).

 
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Ken Subltt
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Grow Up

March 11 2017, 7:28 PM 

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them,

I ascend unto my Father, and your Father;

and to my God, and your God.


I like that! So I AM the Father and I AM God. Don't let my cat know.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Grow Up

March 29 2017, 2:31 AM 

"Don't let my cat know." I love it!!!

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Is Jesus His Own Grandfather?

March 12 2017, 11:05 AM 

The first "gods" were Heaven and Earth. Feminists like Jeanene Reese ACU and in all of the lost universities claim that Adam served the EARTH and she is the mother and therefore females now lust to assume Scribe-Hypocrite Roles (Jesus referencing Isaiah 29; Ezekiel 33) NAMED slick speakers for hire, singers or instrument players. These were always the mark of Rebellion against Jesus and the worship of the Jewish WISDOM or Sophia beginning with Eve-Zoe. Later triads were descendants of the first family. The deep or waters as TEHOM is TIAMAT among the Babylonians and modern ceremonial legalism.

"I'm My Own Grandpa"

Now, many many years ago
When I was twenty three
I was married to a widow
Who was pretty as could be

This widow had a grown-up daughter
Had hair of red
My father fell in love with her
And soon the two were wed

This made my dad my son-in-law
And changed my very life
My daughter was my mother
'Cause she was my father's wife

To complicate the matters
Even though it brought me joy
I soon became the father
Of a bouncing baby boy

My little baby then became
A brother-in-law to dad
And so became my uncle
Though it made me very sad

For if he was my uncle
That also made him the brother
Of the widow's grown-up daughter
Who, of course, was my step-mother

I'm my own grandpa
I'm my own grandpa
It sounds funny I know
But it really is so
I'm my own grandpa

My father's wife then had a son
That kept them on the run
And he became my grandchild
For he was my daughter's son

My wife is now my mother's mother
And it makes me blue
Because, she is my wife
She's my grandmother too

I'm my own grandpa
I'm my own grandpa
It sounds funny I know
But it really is so
I'm my own grandpa

Now, if my wife is my grandmother
Then, I am her grandchild
And every time I think of it
It nearly drives me wild

For now I have become
The strangest case you ever saw
As the husband of my grandmother
I am my own grandpa

I'm my own grandpa
I'm my own grandpa
It sounds funny I know
But it really is so
I'm my own grandpa

I'm my own grandpa
I'm my own grandpa
It sounds funny I know
But it really is so
I'm my own grandpa

 
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Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

Some Things Never Change

March 12 2017, 12:47 PM 

I guess that means we will not talk. Is that real enough? Donnie, you have never shown a mature bone towards speaking/debating the word of God. I still recall where you were one of those who was taken off the faithmatters Christian forum board for a time for unchristlike behavior.

That behavior hasn't changed.

Donnie, you said "When someone hesitates and waits for me to publish some of your not-so-Christ-like messages, what does that mean?'

What it means is that you 'hesitate' to publish my messages because you don't like the cold hard facts and even more.....you need time for a good comeback.

It is your site. You pay for it and you can do whatever you want, even if isn't in line with what Christ would have you to do.

It's called....sin.

That is why I have continued to post here. You don't like anyone who gives you the Truth.

I just don't like the fact that you represent anything to do with the church o Christ. You don't deserve it.

The best thing??? I know for a fact that there are leaders at Madison, both past and present, who laugh at your Donnie because of your deplorable behavior.

I will leave it at that.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Some Things Never Change

March 12 2017, 6:46 PM 

Dave,

I don't recall having engaged in any discussion at faithmatters. (I would suggest to Ken to no longer hesitate and wait for me to publish Dave's messages that are doctrinal [true or false] in nature and content.)

This would be the accurate statement: "Donnie does not represent anything to do with the LIBERAL, PROGRESSIVE, CULTURE-DRIVEN, Community Church-transitioned 'Church of Christ.'"

Now, you're really deviating from discussing the thread you created.

Don't worry. There are numerous passages that will teach Bible students that "the Father" is "the God" OF our Lord Jesus Christ [I have shown 2 already]. I will list them later on.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

The Father -- The God of Jesus Christ [What?]

March 13 2017, 12:36 AM 

Dave,

Who is "the God" of the Lord Jesus Christ? The following passages from the New Testament deserve to be seriously considered:

  • And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Matt. 27:46, KJV)

  • And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Mark 15:34, KJV)

  • These words spake Jesus..., Father, the hour is come, ... And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent (John 17:1-3, KJV).

  • Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17, KJV)

  • That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Rom. 15:6, KJV)

  • But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (I Cor. 8:6, KJV)

  • Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; (II Cor. 1:3, KJV)

  • The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not. (II Cor. 11:31, KJV)

  • Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: (Eph. 1:3, KJV)

  • That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: (Eph. 1:17, KJV)

  • One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph. 4:6, KJV)

  • Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (I Pet. 1:3, KJV)

  • And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (Rev. 1:5,6, KJV)

  • Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. (Rev. 3:12, KJV)


[This post is directed to Dave and others who believe that Jesus the Son of God is "God the Son" -- the 2nd Person of the Trinity. Please let him respond first to these scriptures. Thanks.]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: The Father -- The God of Jesus Christ [What?]

March 13 2017, 10:48 AM 

Servetus wrote some wonderful material how that Jesus as the SON shares divinity or the Divine Nature and those with a Phd in DIVINITY do not. At the same time the trinitarians demeaned the glory of Jesus and made the Jews and Muslims hate them. So they burned the one who glorified Jesus. That according to Jesus in John is JUST HOW IIT IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE. Understand that Moses was AN elohim but He was not JEHOFAH-ELOHIM the only SPIRITUAL ruler of the universe. The Lord-God always needs to define WHOM is doing the work. The Jews and pseudo-Christians worship the STARRY HOST and not THE Creator of the Host.

Ex. 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Ex. 20:2 I am the LORD THY God Elohim, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

EXO 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

ISA 45:22 Look unto ME, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

ISA 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel
and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

ISA 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.

ISA 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.



 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: The Father -- The God of Jesus Christ [What?]

March 14 2017, 3:20 AM 

Dave,

Since you're not "talking," you can still read and study the 14 New Testament passages I quoted in my post just above Ken's post. I've been spending quite a bit of time doing searches using the KJV ONLINE.

Although the coming of the Messiah was prophesied in the Old Testament, I do not find "Jesus" or "Christ" in the O.T.

But not so in the New Testament where we can learn (especially in the writings of John) about the relationship and communication between Jesus Christ the Son and his Father.

The 14 passages [and there may be more] are explicit in declaring that our Lord Jesus Christ has a God -- the Father is his own God. Just like the rest of us.

How can Jesus “be God” and “have a God” at the same time?

One of the 14 passages clearly states: my Father, your Father; my God, your God (John 20:17).

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

TRINITY: 'God the Son' vs. SCRIPTURE: 'the Son of God'

March 17 2017, 10:18 PM 

It's man's concoction, invention and falsification

--------------------------- vs. ------------------------

the Scripture's reality, originality and truth.

That silence is deafening!!!



 
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Stan
(no login)
68.53.71.114

Re: TRINITY: 'God the Son' vs. SCRIPTURE: 'the Son of God'

March 27 2017, 8:48 AM 

This is Stan's first visit in months. I see that the main debate is still over the Trinity, and now that Dave realizes how futile it is for him to keep sharing Scriptures that refute Donnie and Ken's false teaching there is nobody left to fight, Ken and Donnie win in refuting the world and this site can claim victory. BTW, Dave I was experiencing the same issue as you of messages being posted late or not at all. For the record this is being typed/submitted on 3/27/17 at 7:48 a.m.

Galatians 4:16 (KJV)
Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

 
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Scripture
(no login)
23.117.130.209

Re: TRINITY: 'God the Son' vs. SCRIPTURE: 'the Son of God'

March 27 2017, 8:21 PM 

Everybody goes on vacations, so even a pause for a few days can be expected.

There's also sleep hours, and short day trips.

Maintaining a forum requires a great deal of energy and devotion.

You might look at a forum like it is a living organism. Sometimes it can run at full speed. Sometimes it gets exhausted and needs to rest. All in all, it is human-like in that it is run by humans.

Probably the greatest decision which the forum-keeper must decide is the divide between culture and indecency.

 
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