Place your banner ad here.          See all banner ads

|| ConcernedMembers.com || About || Links Library || Help Warn Others ||
|| Madison Church of Christ || Richland Hills Church of Christ || Hillcrest Church of Christ || More Churches || Sunday School in Exile ||

Where is my NewThisWeek Email subscription?Click Here

Place your text ad here.           See all text ads

  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  

What is the difference between Jehovah and Yahweh?

April 8 2017 at 11:21 AM
Dianna Howell  (Login dianna01)
from IP address 107.77.161.1

Can someone help me to understand the difference in these two names for God? Why is there a difference in the spelling if they are the representing God?

 
 Respond to this message   
AuthorReply
William
(no login)
24.153.50.147

Difference in spelling of God's proper Name

April 9 2017, 5:47 PM 

We do not know exactly how God vocalized, or spoke, his name to Moses. You can actually Google this and find several reasonable articles, all of which contain at least some speculation. However, God did SPEAK, or sound, his name to Moses so it is reasonable for us to attach some sound to his name as well. I happen to agree with those who say that withholding the spoken sound of God's name due to reverence and holiness approaches superstition, but you decide for yourself.

But as to your question, Jehovah is merely one way in which we as 21st Century English speakers vocalize the name of God as represented by the four letters YHWH. The absolute word is the same. The word "Jehovah" was not invented by John Wycliffe, but he is the one who placed it into English use. I am not certain that the actual source of the vowels added to YHWH (a and o) is correct, as most articles will indicate. At the time Wycliffe was doing his translation he was in Germany and also dealing with the sounds of letters from Latin, Greek, and Semitic languages. For instance, in German the word for "yes" is "ja", pronounced "ya." "W" is pronounced like a "v", to know the difference in "I" and "J" may require context. For instance, "Jonathan" is pronounced "Yonathan" in Germanic and Semitic languages. We say "jail", but if you ever go to Williamsburg, VA, you may see the "gaol", pronounced exactly the same.

Paraphrased, the introduction of the NASB says that there is no certain vocalization of "YHWH," and the four letters (the tetragrammaton) have little significance to English readers, and "Jehovah" is now seen as something of a corruption. So the NASB has replaced "YHWH" with "Lord" (capitalized) with a side note to indicate it is the Tetragrammaton.

All in all, not something very important to most, but surely some on this site will disagree and discussion will commence.

William, Guillaume, Liam, Wilhelm. I'm all the same guy.

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Difference in spelling of God's proper Name

April 9 2017, 9:50 PM 

Interesting note from Wikipedia:

Jehovah (/dʒᵻˈhoʊvə/ jə-HOH-və) is a Latinization of the Hebrew יְהֹוָה‎, one vocalization of the Tetragrammaton יהוה‎ (YHWH), the proper name of the God of Israel in the Hebrew Bible. ... that "the English form Jehovah is quite simply an Anglicized form of Yehovah,"[11] and preserves the four Hebrew consonants "YHVH" (with the introduction of the "J" sound in English). Anglicization of Jehovah is underscored.

Thanks, Wilhelm happy.gif

I'm hearing about the RCC and the JW claims:

Jehovah's Witnesses loathe the Catholic Church and have done everything in their power to strip their church of traces of Catholicism. Despite this, their group's very name contains a Catholic "invention," the name "Jehovah."

Wow! Another Catholic invention????


 
 Respond to this message   
William
(no login)
24.153.50.147

Re. Jehovah's Witnesses

April 17 2017, 12:29 PM 


This is one place where there is an explanation, and how Jehovah's witnesses have adopted what may have been a Catholic invention for God's name. I think, actually, it is less Catholic that a result of "scholars" who happened to be Catholic. Showing how there are always things we can agree upon, I agree with the JW's that the name of God should not be obscured. The points in the following link have been picked up many times without credit, and I am not sure if this link is the original source.

https://www.catholic.com/qa/is-gods-name-yahweh-or-jehovah

What I always found interesting was that when God applied a name to Himself, His name differentiated Him from all other "gods" by deriving his name from "I Am", or "I Exist". The other "gods" do not exist.

 
 Respond to this message   
Whoops
(no login)
24.153.50.147

Re. Names

April 9 2017, 5:53 PM 

I should have said that Tyndale used Iehouah instead of Wycliffe's Adonay, and that Tyndale put the word that became Jehovah into English usage. I apologize. Maybe the moderator can edit for me.

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: What is the difference between Jehovah and Yahweh?

April 9 2017, 6:03 PM 

Dianna, this would me a great long-term study. This is a great question by so many students of the Bible -- reminds me of a book: "Everything You Always Wanted to Know about God (But Were Afraid to Ask)." I think this will require a lot of research: I know there's been a lot of research even among Hebrew scholars. Not to complicate matters, we might want to consider "Elohim" to this study, thus: Jehovah / Yahweh / Elohim

As part of the initial study, I would like to bring up the following factors and stats that hopefully will lead us to an honest study of the subject:

1. In ancient Hebrew with no written vowels, the name of God is spelled YHWH.
2. There are 7 references to Jehovah or Yahweh (יְהוָ֣ה) or (ieue) in the Old Testament.
3. There is not a single reference to Jehovah or Yahweh in the New Testament.
4. However, there are numerous references to God or to the Father in the New Testament, and it is conclusive that Jehovah refers ONLY to God the Father.
5. There is not a single reference to the name of Christ in the Old Testament.
6. There are hundreds of references to Christ in the New Testament. There are numerous reference in the New Testament to (a) the name of Christ; (b) the name of Jesus; (c) the name of Jesus Christ.
7. It is important to study the nature of Christ as the Son of God while we study about God the Father whose name is Jehovah or YHWH/Yahweh in Hebrew.

(NOTE: My observation has been, based on all the scriptural support I'm able to find, that while I disagree with both Dave and Bill in their Trinitarian claim that Jesus is God):

(1) I agree with Dave in stating that Jesus is not the Father -- this is scriptural;
(2) I disagree with Bill in his claim that Jesus the Son is also the Father "because they are one and the same [huh?]" ... and are interchangeable "persons" and expressions.


______________________

In the 1st paragraph, it should state: "... this would make a great long-term study." [d.c.]


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 23.127.32.146 on Apr 9, 2017 9:17 PM


 
 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: What is the difference between Jehovah and Yahweh?

April 9 2017, 7:28 PM 

When my parents gave me a name, they grasped that I was one of lots of humanoids. If you give God a name you may make him one of the thousands of gods. I have not heard of people addressing 'Jehovah" in prayer.

Yaho, Yah, Iao are used of pagan gods and God gave His DESCRIPTOR which is not a name as in one of many like Him

Ex. 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
Ex. 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Ex. 3:15 And God said MOREOVER unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel,
The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob,
hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.


Is. 26:4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:

As Donnie noted, Jesus is never identified as Jehovah. Joshua or Jesus are like naming your child JESUS which does not make it the real Jesus. In Isaiah 9:6 and Emmanuel, Jesus is an elohim simply because he has mighty power. He is not THE Lord-God or Jehovah-the only true El.

h3068. Yhwh; from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; name of God:
h1933 hava meaning to exist.
h1961. hayah, haw-yaw; a primitive root (compare 1933); to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic,

Jesus was BORN and was not self-existent although his and our spirits are from God.

To prevent theologians from being pagan, God said

I AM The LORD-God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob,hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever and this is my memorial unto all generations

The command of Jesus was:

Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, SAY, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed [HOLY] be thy NAME. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father,





    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Apr 9, 2017 7:37 PM


 
 Respond to this message   
William
(no login)
24.153.50.147

Re. Names

April 10 2017, 1:22 AM 

I had a very, very Jewish teacher with traditional European education for Old Testament. His pronunciation was "Ya-Ho-Wa", slightly elided, with the Ya roughed to Yah(h rough breathing almost), and the "H" mostly swallowed in the second syllable.


 
 Respond to this message   
Dianna Howell
(Login dianna01)
107.77.161.6

Never be afraid to ask

April 10 2017, 5:16 PM 

Donnie, I needed that book when I was young! I was always afraid of sounding stupid in front of my peers. Perhaps one on one teaching would help some students or at least give them the tools they need. I am so thankful we can access some of the old literature now!

 
 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Never be afraid to ask

April 10 2017, 5:36 PM 

Dianna, you are one of the three or four people I have met in my life who wanted to or needed to study be Bible beyond using it as a ploy for preaching or singing.

Ezek. 8:1 And it came to pass in the sixth year, in the sixth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I sat in mine house, and the elders of Judah sat before me, that the hand of the Lord [Adonay] GOD [YHWH] [ fell there upon me.

h136. am emphatic form of 113; the Lord (used as a proper name of God only):—(my) Lord.
h113 adown, aw-done; or (shortened) NOdDa }adon, aw-done; from an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, i.e. controller (human or divine):—lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with “Adoni-”.

The Adonis-Astarte fertility rite continued in Lebanon into the 5th century AD.

Adonis was Tammuz in Ezekiel 13.

Isn't there some evidence that the full Yehweh or Jehovah is adding the "Adonis" concept? Again, this would be God dissociating Himself from the other gods.

 
 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

The abandoned Jews did were not ignorant of their "gods"

April 17 2017, 8:45 PM 

When Jews encounter the consonants of "Yahweh' (YHWH) in prayer, they pronounce it "Adonai." They might be shocked to learn that this substitution word is related to the Phoenician "Adon" and "Adonis." Further, Muslims, Jews and Arabic-speaking or Aramaic/Syriac-speaking Christians might be shocked also to learn that their words for God come from the Phoenician god's name of "El" as in "Elah," "Allah," "Elahona," "Eloh," "Elohaino," "Eli," "Eloi," "Elohak"...etc .

God knew that: That is why Scripture says that there are MANY LORDS or YHWH but there id only one READ GOD or Eloyhim.
God also knew that because of Instrumental-Trinitarian-Perverted idolatry at Sinai, God turned the Jews over to worship the Starry Host: sorry scholars missed Acts 7.

God says that HIS NAME is

Ex. 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel,
The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you:
this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

On the Contrary, Jesus said:

I AM the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
I AM the light of the world
I AM from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jesus NEVER said: I AM The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob


Adonis is Tammuz in other languages. Paul in Romans 14 warns against this Jewis-Paganism and silenced any of their "doubtful disputations."
Adōn-is [a^, idos (also ios Pherecr.198), ho, Adonis,
A.“ō ton Adōnin” Sapph.63; “Adōni' agomen kai ton A. klaomen” Pherecr.170; hōdōnis, i.e. ho A., Theoc.3.47:—hence, generally, favourite, darling, “dei Adōnidas autous akouein” Luc.Merc.Cond.35, cf. Alciphr.1.39, AP5.112 (Marc.Arg.).
2. Adōnidos kēpoi cuttings planted in pots for the Adonia, Pl.Phdr.276b, cf. Theoc.15.113: prov., of any short-lived pleasure, Sch.Pl.l.c.
3. aulē Adōnidos, at Rome, garden on the Palatine, Philostr.VA7.32.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adonis

After God turned the Jews over to Worship the starry host they went on to adopt Canaanite Baalism. It was not out of ignorance but they were Purposed Driven to do that to which God had abandoned them.

The Greek : [ádɔːnis]), Adōnis was a borrowing from the Canaanite word ʼadōn, meaning "lord", which is related to Adonai (Hebrew: אֲדֹנָי‎), one of the names used to refer to the God of the Hebrew Bible and still used in Judaism to the present day.[4] Syrian Adonis is Gauas[5] or Aos, akin to Egyptian Osiris, the Semitic Tammuz and Baal Hadad, the Etruscan Atunis and the Phrygian Attis, all of whom are deities of rebirth and vegetation (see life-death-rebirth deity).

Aristoph. Lys. 388
MAGISTRATE
Have the luxurious rites of the women glittered
Their libertine show, their drumming tapped out crowds,
The Sabazian Mysteries summoned their mob,
Adonis been wept to death on the terraces,


tumpa^n-ismos , ho, A.beating of drums, drumming, as the Galli [Castrates] did in the worship of Cybele, Ar.Lys.388; in the Dionysus-cult, Str.15.1.8

As I could hear the last day in the Assembly? [Ekklesia]
For Demostratus—let bad luck befoul him—
Was roaring, “We must sail for Sicily,”
While a woman, throwing herself about in a dance

Lopsided with drink, wasshrilling out “Adonis,
Woe for Adonis.
” Then Demostratus shouted,
“We must levy hoplites at Zacynthus,”
And there the woman, up to the ears in wine,

Was screaming “Weep for Adonis” on the house-top,
The scoundrelly politician, that lunatic ox,
Bellowing bad advice through tipsy shrieks:
Such are the follies wantoning in them.

Paul said don't get metheuo or Fluted Down with Wine but SPEAK the Word.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Apr 17, 2017 8:47 PM


 
 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Pagan Views of YHWA or JAhovah.

June 12 2017, 10:14 AM 

Most foolishness leading to A MAJOR RELIGIOUS INDUSTRY is, as noted in Amos 8 and Isaiah 5 and many other places, a Purpose Driven need to keep people ignorant. Ignorance was one of those "gods" some people worshiped. Wisdom or Sophia as the Jewish female of Logos, was the feminine or effeminate WORLD VIEW which connected religion to CARNAL or worship IN THE FLESH. Jesus as the SON of God and speaks the LOGOS which was known to most people as EXCLUDING rhetoric, singing, playing instruments, acting or anything beyond the direct command to SPEAK or READ that which is written for our LEARNING. Those with A holy spirit will grasp that LEARNING is that one-piece pattern

If you keep the worship IN THE SPIRIT (Psallo and Ode) and Just SPEAK you do not invite the SOPHIA lads.

Phil. 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice [grace] IN the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
Phil. 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Phil. 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Phil. 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,


The same Purpose Driven Worship of Ignorance (Asmov) fails to grasp that the world is filled with "yehovahs" and "elohim." That is why the one and only Deity is Lord [YHWH] God [Elohim]. When at Mount Sinai the defacto-Egyptians who were rescued by grace immediately wanted to return to the god of

Num. 11:4 And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat?
Num. 11:5 We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely; the cucumbers, and the melons, and the leeks, and the onions, and the garlick:
Num. 11:6 But now our soul is dried away: there is nothing at all, beside this manna, before our eyes.


Amos and Stephen and all of the Old Testament tells us the names of the gods when "God turned them over to worship the starry host." The One True YHWH-EL was only understood by the prophets.

ALL religionism as ANTI-Education is based on what Hebrews calls a CARNAL and pagan religionism.

Jer. 10:10 But the LORD is the TRUE God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.
Jer. 10:11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.
Jer. 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
Jer. 10:13 When he UTTERED his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind [SPIRIT] out of his treasures.
Jer. 10:14 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.


IF YOU GRASP THAT MOSES WROTE THE ANTITHESIS OF BABYLONIANISM TO WHICH THE JEWS AND MOST CHRISTIANS WERE ABANDONED TO THEN YOU WILL HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH SCHOLARLY RESEARCH. Genesis can be an inspired record without being a "pattern" which is defined as the teaching of the Prophets and Apostles. You can accept the year 4004 if you grasp that Moses wrote a warning to people who rejected GRACE by falling into Instrumental-Trinitarian-Perverted-Idolatry.

In Romans10 Paul explains how the Jews "rejected immortality" or "predestination" by their idolatry which God saw as a "prayer" to return to idolatry which provided them food and entertainment.

Scholars have identified some of the motifs and concepts found in Genesis as existing in Sumerian works of the 3rd millennium B.C. (but said motifs and concepts perhaps being of the 4th millennium) . Genesis explains how man in the form of Adam, came to lose out on a chance to obtain immortality . His God denies him access to the Tree of Life, whose fruit, if consumed, confers immortality. This is apparently a later Hebrew inverting of the "Adapa and the South Wind myth." Adapa, symbolizing man, has an opportunity to obtain immortality. All he has to do is eat and drink the food of the gods offered him by Tammuz and Nin-gish-zida on behalf of Anu. Adapa refuses both on the prior advice of his god Ea (Akkadian for "house of water, " Sumerian: En-ki, en meaning "lord" and ki meaning "earth"), who forewarned him he would surely die if he consumed anything. So, Mankind lost out on obtaining immortality because HE OBEYED HIS GOD. Ea (Enki) did not want "his servant" Adapa to possess immortality, he was willing though to give great "wisdom or knowledge" to Adapa (teaching him powerful incantations, spells and curses , allowing Adapa to break the wing of the south wind god, and thus stopping sea breezes from reaching lower Mesopotamia).

So, in Genesis and Adapa, we have motifs of lost immortality, food conferring immortality, a god denying man immortality, man's aquisition of forbidden knowledge (Anu being upset to learn Ea (Enki) has taught the man powerful incantations to use AGAINST the gods) but reworked and transformed.


The Serpent in the garden of Eden was a Musical Enchanter(ess) and the SERPO speaks of a winding and treacherous stream, music or slowly-spreading fire." The Spirit of Christ uses the king of Tyre and Babylon as types of Lucifer, Zoe or Venus. The ancient and modern feminists worship EVE which is ZOE in the Greek. He calls them a "singing and harp playing prostitute" in the garden of Eden.

Adam loses out on immortality because he disobeyed, whereas Adapa obeyed. Yahweh-Elohim then, is an "inverted" and transformation of the Akkadian god of Wisdom and Knowledge, Ea, pronounced aya or ayya (any relation to Iah/Yah ? or ehyeh asher ehyeh, "I AM that I AM, tell them eyheh has sent you" Exodus 3:14). Also of note here is Ea's/Enki's association with freshwater, the Apsu, and Enki's epithet nudimmud naqbi "creator of groundwater", which recalls for me, Yahweh's creating a groundwater spring in the Garden of Eden which became the source of the world's four rivers, the Pishon, Gihon, Hiddekel and Euphrates (Enki is shown on a throne with streams of water flowing from waterpots).


Enki or Ea as the pagan Yah.

[linked image]

The FAD to sell books pretends to A CHRISTIAN WORLD VIEW. The World is the Kosmos, Ecumenical or the kingdom of Satan. This is "falling backward" to Babylonianism well defined in Revelation 17-18.

http://www.piney.com/Enki.and.The.World.Order.html

When Cain (from a musical note) was born Eve says that she god a MAN from God. Paul says that she was wholly seduced and that Cain was OF that wicked one. Another clay tablet which was very old when Abraham was educated shows -- in the Pagan World Order -- how Inanna stole the ME or magical song book from father Ea.

http://www.piney.com/BabEaGifts.html

This is only important to you if your "progressive" preacher uses God's Abandonment to worship the starry host or David the WARRIOR of a CARNAL system as his PATTERN and wants you to pay for crawling back to Babylon.






    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Jun 12, 2017 10:17 AM


 
 Respond to this message   
 
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  
Place your text ad here.           See all text ads

This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!

...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

Click Here......The Book is Available Now FREE

Place your banner ad here.           See all banner ads

...ConcernedMembers.com ...About ...Links Library ...Sunday School in Exile ...Help Warn Others


FastCounter by bCentral

CM Visit Counter as of 6/25/2015
2,101,394

Site Visits Since 6/30/2015
page counter