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What about tithing? Added my notes on the Law of Giving

June 6 2017 at 10:44 AM
Dianna Howell  (Login dianna01)
from IP address 107.77.161.7

Why did Abraham give a tithe to Melchizedek? This was voluntary on Abrahams. Were there ancient customs that required this perhaps? Should a congregation base their "law of tithing" on this example? What about Christ's example of the kings children do not owe this tribute, as they are his sons?


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Jul 8, 2017 12:58 PM


 
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Bill
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99.179.116.207

Re: What about tithing?

June 6 2017, 2:14 PM 

The New Testament does not command tithing but commands each one of us to give as we have been prospered, according to 1 Cor. 16:2. Therefore, each person must decide how much he can afford to give. If a person decides that tithing works best for him, that's between him and God.

 
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Dianna Howell
(Login dianna01)
107.77.161.7

Atrocious grammar!

June 6 2017, 4:41 PM 

Someone didn't edit her post! That should read "Abraham's part" and "Were instead of Where". Thanks Bill for your reply! I am curious if the "law of giving" was inferred from the Melchizedek example. I was taught the same as you. There was no law taught! If you say something is a law, then there is force implied, which takes choice or from the heart out of the equation. Why would churches bind this on their members, when there is no authority except Christ?

 
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Bill
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99.179.116.207

Tithing vs. Tribute

June 6 2017, 5:02 PM 

Tribute, AKA tax, is a different matter. Whereas tithing is one voluntary form of giving of one's means back to God, tribute or tax, as we all know, is a sum levied by the government and must be paid to avoid penalties. The Jews asked Jesus if it was lawful to pay tribute/taxes to "Caesar" (the government):

"Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no? But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me? Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar's. And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's" (Luke 20:22-25).



 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Tithing vs. Tribute

June 6 2017, 9:57 PM 

God had promised a "place" for the Hebrews in Canaan. Because of their fall from Grace because of rejecting God at Mount Sinai they would have to win living space by their own effort.

The land was divided up into tribal tracts with the exception of the Levites. The tribe of Levi had no inheritance and served in many roles which we would call Civil and Military.

The tribe owned the land but was "let" to individuals for 50 years. A family who was given the flock of the defeated. That family paid 10 percent of the INCREASE or profit for the years. If the counter counted 100 sheep at the beginning of the year he took 10 percent of the NET profit. That means that any lambs he ate or sold did not count as profit. He paid this 10 percent RENT directly to the tribe of Levi at best 4 out of 7 years. The other tithes were reserved for the poor in the area which included the tribe of Levi who were destitute. There was no tithe on the 7th year so a preacher claiming the tithe might get hungry because the tithe was for food only as RENT on a flock given to him by the gracious disposed owner. The food-only which was in the storeroom at the temple was at best:

1/10 of 4/7 of the food only from confiscated food producing people as RENT went to the priests only when on rare rotating duty.

The Tithe only from those with RENTED food producing property paid up only ONCE a year.

The Tribe of Levi as the "Civil government tribe" gave only one tenth of the food only to be used AT the Temple when members of the tribe were on rare, rotating duty. Each person in the temple complex got a daily dole of food. When he was not on duty he worked for a living. A tent maker or a weaver did not pay a tithe because the tribe did not give them anything. They might pay the normal taxes on imports, exports or others. The warrior aged males met in "muster" at the three yearly musters and might be called on to fight.

Mal. 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his WAGES, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.


Those with tribal property ROBBED God by refusing to bring the tithe into the Temple 'pantry.' At the same time Amos, Isaiah and others pronounced woes upon engaged in pagan religionism and ROBBED those who worked for a WAGE. Music and food and robbing wives caused the youth to starve to death for lack of the water and food of the WORD.

Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: he references Isaiah 29 and Ezekiel 33 which describes the practices defined by Malachi. They made up their own commandments SO THAT they would not have to teach the commandments of God. At the same time they fleeced the widows ever of her meager income. They still do it insisting even that widows on welfare should tithe.

Even Paul urged giving for the destitute especially on those who PROSPERED and shamed them by the example of the poor being willing.

[linked image]






 
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Kenneth Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Both the tithe and the sabbath (worship) were imposed and not commanded.

June 7 2017, 12:26 PM 

You will remember that Abraham was due a "recovery fee." He gave a tithe of the king of Sodom to the king of Salem. Those who claim the tithe to Melchizedek claim the loot of the king of Babylon. The Levites in the loins of Abraham would take a tithe from THEIR BRETHREN. Modern preachers and especially the "musical performers" claim the role of the Levites. They claim the role forbidden by Jacob in Isaiah 49 and finally imposed because of idolatry at Mount Sinai.

"Only royalty enjoyed the seventh-day rest.
"The Babylonians were forced to serve their gods in worship on the Sabbath.


This included making animal sacrifices. The Shabatum means "rest the heart or mind." However, the Jews abandoned to Babylonianism destroyed the Day of Rest. However, God quarantined the the Jews NOT ABANDONED to their isolated villages to REST. The only thing permitted was to gather to hear the Word PREACHED by being READ. They did not preach, sing, pass the plate or have a 24/7 clergy as did all sacrificial altars.

"Therefore, God demanded that the Sabbath be for the benefit of the people - not Him:
"The Sabbath serves the people and
the people do not serve the Sabbath."
Source: George Barton, Archaeology and the Bible, 7th Edition, p. 309


Rather than a day of worship defined as "hard bondage" God gave the people a day of REST during the labor-intensive periods of agriculture.

The Babylonian religion is also the source of the TRINITY of emerging gods who were often evil:

"The priest-king of each city played the role of a god, usually of Enlil, who was the second figure of the Sumerian pantheon, being the son of the sky god Anu, and represented various forms of natural power and energy. In the role the king performed ceremonies depicting the defeat of Tiamat, the demon of the ocean, and the other monsters who followed her leadership.

Tiamat is Tehum of Genesis. The Babylonish ziggurats or = temples, like the Jerusalem Temple, were the shrines of the Temple-State.

A.H.Sayce tracing the migration of Abram from Ur of the Chaldees, says in his Patriarchal Palestine

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/14405

"Now if Babylonian culture and religion had thus spread to the Canaanites, it suggests a reason why the colony of Phoenicians from Tyre, who founded Carthage (say about 900 B.C.) were tithe-payers (see Sacred Tenth, p. 15); and if Melchizedek may be regarded as a Canaanitish priest, then it would be as natural for him in his royal and priestly character to expect tithes from Abram as it was for Abram to pay them. Hence the professor, alluding to this incident, says (Patriarchal Religion, p. 175):

Tyre and Babylon defined "Lucifer the singing and harp-playing prostitute" in the garden of Eden. Lucifer is ZOE and EVE by the pagans and feminists or effeminates. Tyre furnished the pattern and builders for the Jerusalem Temple which enslaved the Jews and caused a civil war. Those whom God had blinded and made deaf use the Jewish-Melchizedek-CARNAL pattern denying Christ Who defanged those He called a Race of Vipers.

Melchizedek was the king of Salem and Priest of the most high god or ELOHIM. Jesuralem captured by David was already operating as a place of worship of Shamash or other Sun Gods like Apollon. This was also the place where God had SUPPLIED the lamb for Sacrifices so that the Jews did what God did not command as Civil-Military-Clergy abandoned "to worship the starry host."
Jesus was a Second Adam and "David"

Jesus was a priest after Melchizedek but ONLY in respect to an "endless reign. The point is that Melchizedek was not part of the tribe of Levi and has no continuing "genealogy." Jesus was out of Judah and NOT Levi. ANYTHING adapted as part of the Law of Moses or the radically changed LAWS of David makes one guilty of all and abandoned to be a CARNAL institution and not spiritual. Spiritual or Rational worship--which does not come with religious observations or lying wonders--but is 100% devoted to THE WORD, the Logos or Regulative Principle: the CARNAL pattern-pieces outlawed include personal opinions, personal experiences, self-authoring rhetoric, singing, poetic expressions, playing instruments, acting or imitating.

Paul in Hebrews shows that to be a CARNAL kingdom and that the work of Jesus has abrogated that tithe or ceremonies,

"This offering of tithes was no new thing. In his Babylonian home Abram must have been familiar with the practice. The cuneiform inscriptions of Babylonia contain frequent references to it. It went back to the pre-Semitic age of Chaldaea,
and the great temples of Babylonia were largely supported
by the esra or tithe which was levied upon prince and peasant alike.


The "senior pastor" or king set over us had a shrine at the top of the towers: He was the Vicar and had a huge Staff Infection of priests, prophets, cooks, exorcists, workers and prostitutes. Scripture calls them wives and concubines.

The Temple in Jerusalem which is illustrated as a ZIGGURAT or tower of Babel.

That the god should receive a tenth of the good things which, it was believed, he had bestowed upon mankind was not considered to be asking too much. There are many tablets in the British Museum which are receipts for the payment of the tithe to the great temple of the sun-god at Sippara, in the time of Nebuchadnezzar and his successors. From one of them we learn that Belshazzar, even at the very moment when the Babylonian empire was falling from his father's hands, nevertheless found an opportunity for paying the tithe due from his sister."

The Jews even called bull calves their god but nothing at Jerusalem called Sodom and the mother of harlots was commanded by Jehovah [YHWH] God [Elohim] other than from a CARNAL or Military-Industrial Complex of which the CLERGY has always been a key Control Agent.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Jun 9, 2017 2:02 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: What about tithing?

June 8 2017, 1:09 PM 

The story of the tithe really begins with Abraham and Melchizedek. Dianna noted to me that preachers claim the Tithe and LAWFUL offerings based on Tithe given by (in the loins of Abraham) and to the LEVITES ONLY by THEIR BRETHREN ONLY while in the LAND OF CANAAN ONLY and to engage in what is well-documented as the Worship of the Starry Host. The Amarna Letters might be a Class at your favorite Ex-Christian College in place of The Song of Solomon which is the Hieros Gamos or sacred marriage or holy sex (ha ha) even if the "bible class students are offended."

1. Melchizedek was the king of Jeru-Salem and the conversation is about.
2. The "god" of Melchizedek is El Elyon
3. As ALWAYS Abraham claimed that he was honoring YHWH-El Elyon
4. Israel had kings and priests of this same HIGH PLACE only after the Instrumental-Trinitarian-Perverted idolatry at Mount Sinai.
5. Melchizedek is compared to Jesus ONLY by not being part of the Jacob-Cursed and God-Abandoned Levites (Gen 49)
6. Dianna and I have discussed Burton Coffman who may be the only modern writer to know or care that God did NOT command king, kingdom, temple, animal slaughter, priests or Levites to make frightening noise.
7. I know of no early Church Scholar (who used Church OF Christ) who did not reject everything but the Prophets as having anything to do with the Church.
8. Alexander Campbell's "Sermon on the Law" is why there has never been any UNION between the Reformed Baptists becoming Churches of Christ and the Disciples-Christian Churches

A. Both Melchizedek at Jerusalem and the Jews at Jerusalem were a CARNAL Civil-Military-Clergy.
------Jesus is King and High Priest over a SPIRITUAL creation.
------Jesus founded a Spiritual Kingdom which does not come with observations and is IN THE SPIRIT.
Modern Religious still use the CARNAL kingdom for priests as Scribes and Pharisees and Levites as their musical exorcists.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
James 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

TO THAT END JESUS REMOVED ALL LADED BURDENS (music and taxes) AND BURDEN LADERS (Scribes and Pharisees, hyocrites).

Both tithes and the Sabbath were Babylonian and were imposed on Israel after they fell into Instrumental-Trinitarian-Idolatry. The Jacob-cursed and then God-Abandoned Levites along with priests to operate the Sacrificial System gave only a small fraction of the 4 out of a seven year tithe of the PROFITS from the lands, flocks and orchards they had TAKEN from the owners. Melchizedek is often used as the PATTERN for taking the tithe. However, when Abraham returned the goods stolen from the king of Sodom, he gave HIS earned ten percent to Melchizedek. Jerusalem is also defined as SODOM where the abandoned clergy received a small food allowance while on rare rotating duty.

Jacob in Isaiah 49 cursed Levi and commanded that people not attend their "synagogues" nor enter into covenant with them. Rather, they should wait for SHILOH or REST who would come out of JUDAH.

Jesus was not of the Tribe of Levi and had not "pedigree" to be such a priest in the same sense that Melchizedek was not out of the tribe of Levi.

ALL "progressives" build on the pattern of the Priests and Levites: the Catholics called their small choir LEVITE SINGERS and there was no ccongregational singing until after the Reformation.

And verily they that are of the sons of Levi,
.....who receive the office of the priesthood,
.....have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law,
.....that is, of their BRETHREN,
.....though they come out of the loins of Abraham: Hebrews 7:5

But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham,
.....and blessed him that had the promises. Hebrews 7:6

And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, paid tithes in Abraham. Hebrews 7:9

For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. Hebrews 7:10


Only the tribe of Levi could receive tithes of THEIR BRETHREN as food-only when slaughter innocent animals which God DID NOT COMMAND.,
Those who claim the office of priest or Levite or take tithes USE enough of the curse of the Law of Moses to get themselves BURNED

Levi PAID tithes to Melchisedek. However, LEVI was not a model of Jesus

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,)
.....what further need was there that another priest
.....should rise after the order of Melchisedec,
.....and not be called after the order of Aaron? Hebrews 7:11


No, Melchisedec was NOT Jesus of Nazareth: He is used in the same sense that Jesus was our HIGH PRIEST because He was NOT a Levite. Those who are Purpose-Driven are probably FOREORDAINED (Jude) to use the Law of Moses as their PATTERN.

For the priesthood being changed,
.....there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Hebrews 7:12

For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe,
.....of which no man gave attendance at the altar. Hebrews 7:13

For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda;
.....of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. Hebrews 7:14
And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Hebrews 7:15
Who is made, not after the law of a CARNAL commandment,
.....but after the power of an endless life. Hebrews 7:16
Heb. 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb. 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling
.....of the commandment going before
.....or the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb. 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect,
.....but the bringing in of a better hope did;
.....by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Heb. 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Heb. 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath;
.....but this with an oath by him that said unto him,
.....The Lord sware and will not repent,
.....Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
Heb. 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb. 7:23 And they truly were many priests,
.....because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb. 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb. 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them
.....to the uttermost that come unto God by HIM,
.....seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb. 7:26 For such an high priest became us,
.....who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners,
.....and made higher than the heavens;

Hebrews 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice,
.....first for his own sins, and then for the peoples:
.....or this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Heb. 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity;
.....but the word of the oath, which was since the law,
.....maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Heb. 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum:
.....We have such an high priest,
.....who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb. 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle,
.....which the Lord pitched, and not man.


God did not allow Himself to be CALLED into any house build by human hands even of the Worship Team made you that promise.
The true Tabernacle is in heaven or in the SPIRITUAL REALM. That is the only PLACE where one can Worship IN THE SPIRIT as it gives attention to THE TRUTH or THE WORD.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Jun 8, 2017 1:19 PM


 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: What about tithing?

June 9 2017, 3:36 PM 

Melchizedek is only used to DEBUNK the Jews who never grasped that God had turned the people over to worship the STARRY HOST. Jerusalem was a Jebusite High place already operating like an Egyptian center of Sun and Star worship. Melchizedek was a Canaanite or Jebusite and was NOT Jesus. The pattern is that Jesus and His role, teaching and worship is SPIRITUAL in the human spirit or mind only and is NOT related to anything physical or CARNAL.

When David sinned beyond redemption for numbering his fighters God sent a plague on the nation: David let God's punishment fall on the innocent. God then gave David a place on Mount Zion for a Tabernacle or Tent. However, Solomon built God a CARNAL house rather than a family on the mountain already set up by Melchizedek and other Canaanites engaged in Sabazianism. Jesus is NOT a Levite which trashes the CARNAL Jewish system which was not the Synagogue or Spiritual place for education and not for slaughtering goats and infants.

Amos and Stephen tell the story and we repeat:

[linked image]

This WILL alert the Disciples of Christ to look where Stephen is pointing so they will not fall into the PROGRESSIVES Purpose Driven Pattern to get you burned. This is a picture of what was happening before Hezekiah substituted burning goats to the sound of DAVID'S INSTRUMENTS in 2 Chron 29. ALL of the musical apostates claim that God commanded what the passage clearly says that David Commanded as he carried out the Canaanite or Babylonish sacrificial system TO WHICH GOD ABANDONED them.

[linked image]

I am not aware of any "conservative" preacher beside Coffman as Dianna noted who does not agree and say GOD COMMANDED INSTRUMENTS under the Law. They missed Hebrews which marks the Jewish syatem as CARNAL and that is why worship is musical IN THE FLESH with or without LITERAL musical instruments.


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Sabbath, Tithe Ceremonianial Legalism BABYLONIANISM

June 16 2017, 5:30 PM 


http://www.piney.com/MuBabylo.html

In Babylon, royalty was the agent of the gods. Therefore,
"Only royalty enjoyed the seventh-day rest.
"The Babylonians were forced to serve their gods in worship on the Sabbath.

This included making animal sacrifices. The Shabatum means "rest the heart or mind."

"Therefore, God demanded that the Sabbath be for the benefit of the people - not Him:

"The Sabbath serves the people and
the people do not serve the Sabbath."
Source: George Barton, Archaeology and the Bible, 7th Edition, p. 309.

The Babylonian religion is also the source of the TRINITY of emerging gods who were often evil:

"The priest-king of each city played the role of a god, usually of Enlil, who was the second figure of the Sumerian pantheon, being the son of the sky god Anu, and represented various forms of natural power and energy. In the role the king performed ceremonies depicting the defeat of Tiamat, the demon of the ocean, and the other monsters who followed her leadership.

"In these festivals, which were state festivals, the human state contributed to the control of nature, to the upholding of the orderly cosmos... Enacting these divine roles in religious dramas, the king became closely asociated with the gods and was sometimes regarded of divine descent...

H. Bamford Parkes observes that:

"In this fashion evey common tribal interest--the recurrence of the seasons, the increase of the food supply, successful hunting--was likely to become embodied in some regularly repeated ceremony, which usually included group dancing, singing, and feasting.

Besides enabling men to express, and thereby to allay, anger and anxiety, such ceremonies also promoted tribal unity and strengthened the loyalty of the individual to tribal traditions, for the emotional excitement they aroused had the effect of breaking down the barriers between individuals and thus fusing all tribesmen into a collective whole. Meanwhile, whole systems of magical devices were gradually elaborated." (Parkes, p. 29)

"Certain members of a tribe, marked out either by unusual skills or by some emotional abnormality, ususally became particularly adept at these operations, and gradually assumed specialized functions.

Released from the duty of hunting, and concentrating on the practice of magic, the shaman, sorcerer, or medicine man was the world's first professional." (Parkes, Henry Bamford, Gods and Men The Origins of Western Culture, p. 29, Knopf).
"The development both of religion and of the arts can be traced back in a continuous line to the hunting era. The group ritual of the primeval tribesmen were the origin not only of all religious ceremonial, but also of the drama and of poetry and music, while magic gave birth to the visual arts." (Parkes, p. 30).

"Awed by the mysteries of his own spirit no less than by those of nature, primitive man was likely to attribute to divine influence any abnormal emotional state, whether above or below the usual level. Medicine men customarily went into states of trance in which they were believed to be in communication with the gods, and many tribes supposed lunatics and sexual deviants to be divinely possessed.

"In Babylon, for example, his status was symbolized in an annual ceremonial in which he was stripped of his royal insignia, smitten in the face by a priest, and made to prostrate himself before the image of the city god Marduk and confess his devotion; then reclothed as a king, he was brought out weeping to show himself to his subjects." (Parkes, Henry Bamford, Gods and Men The Origins of Western Culture, p. 56, Knopf)

These were held in groves which were also replaced with free standing pillars representing phalic power.

"According to the system which Nimrod was the grand instrument in introducing, men were led to believe that a real spiritual change of heart was unnecessary, and that so far as change was needful, they could be regenerated by mere external means.


It is a historical fact that ancient and modern religionism including the "holy eucharist" the acts were vile and murderous AGAINST the "gods." At Mount Sinai the Jews rose up AGAINST God or challenged Him. Moses refutes the notion that God made Adam out of dirt: In the Bablonian pattern the lazy gods made mankind as androids to do all of the work required to operate the Temple State such as towers of the Jerusalem temple.

The king-high priest got tired of the practiced and picked a human to be the Human Sacrifice which sacrifices were rampant among the Jews.

Animals replaced infants, for instance, in Hezekiah's Reform which is the PATTERN for instrumental noise "making the lambs dumb before the slaughter" which was actually performed when the Jews had Jesus executed like a scapegoat.







 
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Kenneth Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Bruce White, Madison on Tithing

June 28 2017, 12:14 AM 

The concept of free will giving to finance a local congregation has well financed most efforts a group decides to carry out: it worked in building the Tabernacle as the only Earthly pattern representing the Spiritual TENT in heaven.

Heb. 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb. 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb. 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.


God promised to build David a tent
But, Solomon built God a house
But, God does not dwell in houses built by human hand and is not worshipped by the works of human hands.

So, why all of the flailing and fleecing?

Heb. 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb. 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb. 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb. 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


A holy spirit in Acts 3:27 is A good conscience in 1 Peter 3:21.
BAPTISM SAVES US because baptism is the God-ordained way to REQUEST A holy spirit which one needs to come boldly before the Throne of Grace and READ the Covenant of the Kingdom.

Bruce White was called upon to rescue Madison by threats and promises. However, nothing Christian is for sale and nothing for sale is Christian. Bruce was smart enough to grasp that tithing began in Babylon so it MUST BE GOOD. Tithing and the Sabbath as a day of "worship" began and ends in Babylon.

[linked image]


 
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A Rancor
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68.74.186.218

Re: Bruce White, Madison on Tithing

June 29 2017, 12:45 PM 


Dianne, Ken is not a good example on "Tithing". To hear him tell it, he got burned several times by
way-wood Churches.wink.gif "A" holy spirit(?) in Acts 3:27(?) may be blamed.

I believe Bill is the better choice to explain for you.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: What about tithing?

June 29 2017, 12:36 PM 

Only people who were RENTED food-producing properties taken from the natives were to give a small RENT to the tribe of Levi who carried out the Civil services. If no one gave you a confiscated book store then you did not pay RENT.

At best the tithe was 4 out of a seven year cycle to the TRIBE of Levi. They then paid the people who operated the Sacrificial System which God did not commande were give a tenth of that FOOD ONLY when on rare rotating duty at the TEMPLE.

If anyone wants to claim that God gave them YOUR church property the best they could claim for ALL of the STAFF who gave rise to the Greek PARASITE would be

1/10 of 4/7 of FOOD ONLY to be consumed at the Babylonish Temple. He didn't let you pick the Widow's purse for a New Motorcycle.

[linked image]

 
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Kenneth Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Malachi 3 Part Two

June 29 2017, 9:25 PM 

The Historic Church of Christ--the one I knew--always spoke about free will giving and not the LAW OF GIVING. You would never find a reading preacher speak about TITHING.

However, as mega churches get puffed up--like the Disciples-Christians after their Carpet Bags--could not pay the bills--and have to use strong arm tactics to fleece the widow WITHOUT even preaching the Free WATER of the WORD.

Therefore, there is no reason for those who speaking about ROBBING GOD in tithes and offerings ever read the beginning of Malachi 3.

All temples were like Banks or Food Closset. There was no tithe on the 7the year because what grew was for the poor. The Third year tithe was also for the clergy who had stored the food to dispense it to the poor. Even Paul's instruction and the meaning of a minister was that hE worked so that he would have something for the poor day laborer: that was the Agape.

Malachi 2:1-3 (KJV)
1 And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.
2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.
3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.

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Origin of The Law: Everyone knows except latter day THEOLOGIANS

July 2 2017, 5:01 PM 

The Didascalia or Apostolic Constitutions c 230 AD called the church The Church of Christ on the Law of Moses.

http://www.piney.com/Origin.of.The.Law.of.Moses.html

WHICH IS THE LAW OF NATURE, AND WHICH IS THAT AFTERWARDS INTRODUCED, AND WHY IT WAS INTRODUCED.

Heb. 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb. 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.


pXX. Now the law is the decalogue, which the Lord promulgated to them with an audible voice, before the people made that calf which represented the Egyptian Apis.

And the law is righteous, and therefore is it called the law, because judgments are thence made according to the law of nature, which the followers of Simon abuse, supposing they shall not be judged thereby, and so shall escape punishment. This law is good, holy, and such as lays no compulsion in things positive.

Of The Book of The Covenant which is based on grace.

For He says: "If thou wilt make me an altar, thou shalt make it of earth."

(1) It does not say, "Make one," but, "If thou wilt make." It does not impose a necessity, but gives leave to their own free liberty.

For God does not stand in need of sacrifices, being by nature above all want. But knowing that, as of old,

Abel, beloved of God, and Noah and Abraham, and those that succeeded, without being required, but only moved of themselves by the law of nature, did offer sacrifice to God out of a grateful mind;

so He did now permit the Hebrews, not commanding, but, if they had a mind, permitting them; and if they offered from a right intention, showing Himself pleased with their sacrifices.

Therefore He says: "If thou desirest to offer, do not offer to me as to one that stands in need of it, for I stand in need of nothing; for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof."

Before Moses returned with the written Book of the Covenant.

(2) But when this people became forgetful of that, and called upon a calf as God, instead of the true God, and to him did ascribe the cause of their coming out of Egypt, saying, "These are thy gods, O lsrael, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt;"

(3) and when these men had committed: wickedness with the "similitude of a calf that eateth hay;" and denied God who had visited them by Moses

(4) in their afflictions, and had done signs with his hand and rod, and had smitten the Egyptians with ten plagues; who bad divided the waters of the Red Sea into two parts; who had led them in the midst of the water, as a horse upon the ground; who had drowned their enemies, and those that laid wait for them; who at Marah had made sweet the bitter fountain; who had brought water out of the sharp rock till they were satisfied; who had overshadowed them with a pillar of a cloud on account of the immoderate heat, and with a pillar of fire which enlightened and guided them when they knew not which way they were to go; who gave them manna from heaven, and gave them quails for flesh from the sea;

(5) who gave them the law in the mountain; whose voice He had vouchsafed to let them hear; Him did they deny, and said to Aaron, "Make us gods who shall go before us;"

(6) and they made a molten calf, and sacrificed to an idol;--then was God angry, as being ungratefully treated by them,

and bound them with bonds which could not be loosed, with a mortifying burden and a hard collar,

and no longer said, "If thou makest," but, "Make an altar," and sacrifice perpetually; for thou art forgetful and ungrateful.

Offer burnt-offerings therefore continually, that thou mayest be mindful of me.

For since thou hast wickedly abused thy power, I lay a necessity upon thee for the time to come, and I command thee to abstain from certain meats; and I ordain thee the distinction of clean and unclean creatures, although every creature is good, as being made by me; and I appoint thee several separations, purgations, frequent washings and sprinklings, several purifications, and several times of rest;

and if thou neglectest any of them,

I determine that punishment which is proper to the disobedient, that being pressed and galled by thy collar, thou mayest depart from the error of polytheism, and laying aside that, "These are thy gods, O Israel," mayest be mindful of that, "Hear, O lsrael, the Lord thy God is one Lord;"

(7) and mayest run back again to that law which is inserted by me in the nature of all men,

"that there is only one God in heaven and on earth, and to love Him with all thy heart, and all thy might, and all thy mind," and to fear none but Him,

nor to admit the names of other gods into thy mind, nor to let thy tongue utter them out of thy mouth.
He bound them for the hardness of their hearts, that by sacrificing, and resting, and purifying themselves, and by similar observances, they might come to the knowledge of God, who ordained these things for them.


    
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Re: What about tithing?

July 3 2017, 12:30 PM 

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After the Jews were settled in the land the TITHING was mostly for the poor which included Levites living in the area. There was nothing like the LAW OF TITHING or Laying By in Store which is extorted (Paul's word) for the preacher's agenda and is eating up the living of the Widows in order to perform religious or intercessory tasks which Jesus beat them to FREE OF CHARGE.

 
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An example added to Dianna's Post as REAL EXAMPLE

July 4 2017, 1:46 PM 

Jarrod Robinson at Southern Hills in Abilene and the Worship Team has a 2017 budget which may be one of the better examples of WHO is on TOP.

1Tim. 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

WHOLESOME means "to be uncorrupt or true in doctrine.

2Cor. 2:17 For we are not as many, which CORRUPT the WORD of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

CORRUPT is 2585.kapeleuo, kap-ale-yoo´-o; from kapelos (a huckster); to retail, i.e. (by implication) to adulterate (figuratively): — corrupt.

Word is Logos or GOD speaking HIS MIND or Spirit into Jesus of Nazareth. The Logos EXCLUDES everything but the FREE water of the Word.

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Paul silences BOTH men and women so that we might all BE SAFE and come to a knowledge of THE TRUTH. APT elders will silence everyone but the SPEAKERS of the WORD to prevent the outbreak of WRATH or an ORGY.

WRATH INCLUDES: spīrĭtus , breathing or gentle blowing of air, a breath, breeze
Sing.: “quoslibet occupat artus Spiritus,” Ov. M. 15, 167; Tac. A. 16, 34: spiritum Phoebus [APOLLON] mihi, Phoebus artem Carminis [MUSIC]dedit, poetic spirit or inspiration, Hor. C. 4, 6, 29; cf

Of anything taught by the WORD or REGULATIVE PRINCIPLE

1Tim. 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words,
.....even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ,
.....and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
Tim. 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words,
.....whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Tim. 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth,
.....supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Tim. 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Tim. 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
1Tim. 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Tim. 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare,
.....and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1Tim. 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil:
.....which while some coveted after, they have erred from THE FAITH,
.....and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
1Tim. 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things;
.....and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

The Temple which God DID NOT COMMAND was paid for by stealing from others and a temple tax. Jesus paid that tax and said that the Sons do not owe taxes for Buildings and Grounds or STAFF. All religious craftsmen such as priests and singers at BURNT OFFERINGS were called PARASITES.

Paul said of the ONE EXAMPLE that giving even for the DESTITUTE is not a command. There is no law of tithing and the Law of Giving is proof of people who want to get rich and let the widows and hungry starve.

Missionary work is not holding services in a local BAR where you will never find one of the LOST SPIRITS Jesus was sent to find and park in a SAFE HOUSE or heavenly kingdom. That kingdom does not come with observation meaning RELIGIOUS OBSERVATIONS defined as Lying Wonders. The Assembly or School of Christ does not do WORSHIP RITUALS which are the works of human hands. The only worship concept is to give attention to God by giving attention to HIS WORD.

REMINDING YOU THAT THE ONLY STAFF JESUS HAD WERE SENT OUT TO FIND LOST SPIRITS AND SUFFER AND DIE. The Apostate Church is the end-time Rise of the Babylon Mother of Harlots: she uses lusted after fruits as singers or instrument players. John says that their are sorcerers and WILL BE CAST ALIVE INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: An example added to Dianna's Post as REAL EXAMPLE

July 5 2017, 12:52 AM 

Dianna has some good questions about tithing. This IS a salvation issue because there would be little deliberate distortion and repudiation of Scripture and the WORD defined as the Regulative Principle unless people with an uncanny ability to Slick Willy widows out of their food money. Jesus called these ancient and modern Pharisees, hypocrites.

Those Jude define as FOREORDAINED because they HAD deceived the whole world once. A hypocrite is an ACTOR or pretender: he may pretend to be a Gospel Preacher but then lie about THE GOSPEL. He defines as a sectarian, hypocrite, patternist those who RESIST their "infiltrating and diverting" your property. Jesus understood both Isaiah 29 and Ezekiel 33 which is the HOLY SCRIPTURE He came to certify or make more certain.

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A hypocrite has a Phd teaching him how to avoid the following LAWS while CLAIMING the tithe which defines the food a farmer EATS HIMSELF while attending mandatory festivals or Military Mustars always prepared to go to war and not camp out in a mega church.

Deut. 14:10 And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you.
Deut. 14:11 Of all clean birds ye shall eat.
Deut. 14:12 But these are they of which ye shall not eat: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
Deut. 14:13 And the glede, and the kite, and the vulture after his kind,
Deut. 14:14 And every raven after his kind,
Deut. 14:15 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
Deut. 14:16 The little owl, and the great owl, and the swan,
Deut. 14:17 And the pelican, and the gier eagle, and the cormorant,
Deut. 14:18 And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.
Deut. 14:19 And every creeping thing that flieth is unclean unto you: they shall not be eaten.
Deut. 14:20 But of all clean fowls ye may eat.
Deut. 14:21 Ye shall not eat of any thing that dieth of itself:
.....thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates,
.....that he may eat it;
.....or thou mayest sell it unto an alien:
.....for thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God.
.....Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother’s milk.


The following verses define one tithe which is NOT given to feed religious operatives which God never authorized. To prove that Scripture is like Silly Putty, Rubel Shelly says that Jesus would love to attend one of our pork barbecues. John Mark Hicks says that the Lord's Supper should be like a sacrifice so that God EATS with us while we burn the fat. Remember the Strong Delusions thingy?




 
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Kenneth Sublett
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Jumping back to Deuteronomy 12

July 5 2017, 12:49 PM 

There is no mention of TITHES in Exodus which defines both The Book of The Covenant and The Book of the Law of Moses. The Law was added because of Instrumental-Trinitarian-perverted Idolatry at Mount Sinai. There was no need for the Priests and Levites to bear the burden of the Tabernacle and the Burden of their own iniquity for 40 years before God "turned them over to worship the Starry Host and SKIPPED the promise land as He gave them kings in His anger to carry out the captivity and death penalty.

Deut. 12:3 And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.
Deut. 12:4 Ye shall not do so unto the Lord your God.


Deuteronomy 18 will define the ABOMINATIONS including ritualistic music to get everyone high enough to enjoy the obscenities like a Worship Team CLAIMING to arouse you and lead you into a god's presence. The God of music is named APOLLON and the Muses or his worship team were dirty SHEPHERDS ruling over everyone.

To PREVENT the abandoned people from loving to attend the pagan "worship services" God picked ANOTHER PLACE.

Deut. 12:5 But unto the place which the Lord your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put his name there, even unto his habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come:
Deut. 12:6 And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:
Deut. 12:7 And there YE SHALL EAT before the Lord your God, and ye shall rejoice in all that ye put your hand unto, ye and your households, wherein the Lord thy God hath blessed thee.


SO THAT:

Deut. 12:8 Ye shall NOT DO THE THINGS that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is RIGHT IN HIS OWN EYES.
Deut. 12:9 For ye are not as yet come to the REST and to the inheritance, which the Lord your God giveth you.
Deut. 12:10 But when ye go over Jordan, and dwell in the land which the Lord your God giveth you to inherit, and when he giveth you rest from all your enemies round about, so that ye dwell in safety;


The Tithe and Temple Robbers might tell us how the people wandering for 40 years had so man LAMBS that they could give 1 out of 10 to the Levites who were Jacob Cursed (Isaiah 49) and God Abandoned. They would never have any INHERITANCE of the Food-Producing properties confiscated from the local tribes who were probably more Semite than the defacto Egyptians who brought their ABOMINATIONS with them and never let go.

The Tabernacle was located between the tribes as the place to go to PREVENT the isolated tribes from setting up their own pagan sacrifricial system.

Deut. 12:11 Then there shall be a place which the Lord your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the Lord:


Neither Tabernacle or Temple were congregational Worship Centers.

Deut. 12:17 Thou mayest NOT eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:
Deut. 12:18 But THOU must eat them before the Lord thy God in the place which the Lord thy God shall choose, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite that is within thy gates: and thou shalt rejoice before the Lord thy God in all that thou puttest thine hands unto.
Deut. 12:19 Take heed to thyself that thou forsake not the Levite as long as thou livest upon the earth.


The Levites were not given any of the FREE CONFISCATED food-producing properties. They were not rich "worship ministers" but they bought their OWN land and were occupied in WAGE EARNING jobs which could never be taxed. They were subject to CHARITY only.

 
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The second mention of the Tithe

July 5 2017, 9:45 PM 

The second account of the tithe. If the national assembly of Jewish males was not close by the Food Produce ONLY from those given free lands might be sold and the money "laid by him" or bound to his arm. He could then travel and buy whatever he needed. Again, the TITHE is consumed by the FARMER and never given for any God ordained religious craftsman.

SECOND TITHE NOT GIVEN TO THE CLERGY

Deut. 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the INCREASE of thy SEED, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
Deut. 14:23 And THOU shalt EAT before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there,
.....THE TITHE of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil,
.....and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks;
.....that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always.


They didn't bring a tenth of their LAMBS but. h1062 the firstborn representing birthright. h1060 the eldest of the flock and not the FIRSTBORN son.

The Purpose was not to be a WAGE for clergy but that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always.

The place for warrior males to muster for the festivals might be too far to carry all of the food to be consumed during the week.

Deut. 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:
?

Aaron laid by Aaron and bound it to their own hand.

Deut. 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose:


The tithe was not handed over to a parasitic clergy but was their own property to be spend any way they wished.

Deut. 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,


This was like Summer Camp for the military reserves and not a Worship center.

ONCE EVERY 3 YEARS WAS DEVOTED TO THE POOR WHICH INCLUDED THE LEVITES. When they were settled in the land the task of the Levites to bear the burden of the Tabernacle and bear their burden of their own iniquity would cease. Jacob had cursed the Levites and God had abandoned them as Jacob had warned in Genesis 49.

Deut. 14:27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.
Deut. 14:28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
Deut. 14:29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.


And so the tithe is never for religious purposes or a clergy class. The Levites were POOR and did not ride a new chariot to worship services at a church.



    
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Re: The second mention of the Tithe

July 6 2017, 11:54 AM 

Didiche 1:5 Give to every one that asketh of thee, and ask not again; for the Father wishes that from his own gifts there should be given to all. Blessed is he who giveth according to the commandment, for he is free from guilt; but woe unto him that receiveth. For if a man receive being in need, he shall be free from guilt; but he who receiveth when not in need, shall pay a penalty as to why he received and for what purpose; and when he is in tribulation he shall be examined concerning the things that he has done, and shall not depart thence until he has paid the last farthing.

Didiche 1:6 For of a truth it has been said on these matters, let thy almsgiving abide in thy hands until thou knowest to whom thou hast given.


The tithe, like all of the Second Law, was given because of sin and not as a spiritual blessing (Galatians 3:19). Liberty under Christ allows a priesthood of believers able to “come boldly before” God’s throne. The sacrifice is now the fruit of the lips of each believer which no “worship team” can offer however talented.


 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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