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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Rubel Shelly, John York and Hitler in Mein Kampf

July 29 2017, 8:14 PM 

Rubel Shelly and John York: [p. 114] Our proposal to focus on Jesus means that Scripture is NO LONGER a set of proof-texts or a collection of facts or God's rulebook for human behavior. Scripture is the unfolding story of God acting both to create and to re-create. It is not an easy book to understand. It was NEVER intended as a document to [p. 115] be INDIVIDUALLY read and interpreted--a sort~of correspondence course in salvation.

John Mark Hicks: Grounding a new vision of the Lord's Supper as table in the primitive biblical witness, John Mark will explain how this can be incorporated in the communal life of the church... "Revisioning the Lord's Supper: Can We 'Do' Table at Church?

"This is the body of God for healing the bitterness of the human heart " declared Rev. Hill as women passed the milk and honey mixture around their tables. "We have seen the power, rising from the earth Together we have given birth to a Re-Imagining Community which extends to every corner of our world!

Rubel Shelly: April 4-6, 2002 Putting on a new pair of glasses makes what was distorted now focused and clear. We see the world as it really is - not what our old glasses led us to see.

The Body of Christ needs to re-vision - to look through new glasses for a fresh perspective. Prior to the invention of the printing press, access to the content of Scripture was oral. For thousands of years it could only be heard and interpreted in the context of community.

Yes, INDIVIDUALS could comment on Scripture, but those comments were always for the LARGER hearing of the community.

Only after there was INDIVIDUAL access did there become an opportunity for an individual, isolated reading and interpretation that had no need or use for community. Just as identity in Christ is always COMMUNITY identity, our reading of Scripture becomes a COMMUNITY READING as well.

While we still have access to reading as individuals, we stop asking, "What does this mean to me?"--as though t
here is such an isolated meaning. Instead we have a GROUP MENTALITY that asks, "What does this mean to US?"
More importantly, we lay aside INDIVIDUAL interpretations precisely because they are inevitably argumentative and divisive.

We GIVE UP the right of individual interpretation and take on the accountability of SHARED READING.

This is not a pooling of collective ignorance. The Bible is full of stories from ancient and often quite alien cultural settings and belief systems, and we cannot ignore those differences.

So we listen to the voices of scholarship just as we listen to the child who intuitively hears what God is saying in a particular story.

[linked image]

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Rubel Shelly, John York and Hitler in Mein Kampf

July 29 2017, 10:48 PM 


Aren't there a few congregations of the church of Christ that observe the Communion by having an actual "fellowship" meal? Or, was this a passing fad? This is a big problem when the term "communion" is redefined as predominantly "sharing" rather than a commemoration of the suffering and death of Christ. Period. (It's not even about the resurrection of Christ as there was no shedding of the blood of Christ when God raised him from the dead. [Oh, Jesus did not raise himself from the dead. It was God who raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 13:30-34).])

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Rubel Shelly, John York and Hitler in Mein Kampf

July 30 2017, 12:15 AM 

I have some notes somewhere. Rubel Shelly suggested that Jesus would dive into one of our pork barbeque fellowships.

Another church, if I can find it, had the "lords supper" in the midst of a pork barbecue "common meal."

When Paul went downstairs at Troas for a "snack" it is probably true that almost no one was close to a place of assembly. Paul knew that he had to wait seven days for the people to show up. However, some recorded history shows that since hymns were prayers the local body met in a private place for the Lord's Supper which is to show forth or preach His death. I think that if you grasp that Jesus paid it all the common observation, as noted above, brought everyone to unity and most would sit down and be silent while the presiding elder READ the lesson. From the Jews onward, especially the prophets were read through in a systematic reading plan. An Episcopalian said that they read through the Bible each year. You will notice that they "prophesied" by closing with "thus saith the Lord."

The common meal is one of the efforts to bad mouth anything that any church of Christ does. Kinda like a Muddy Stream Press.

I will search.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Church and Ecclesia

July 29 2017, 9:58 PM 

The tendency of many "transition" (evolving) churches is to cancel Bible classes so as to break that momentum of Bible textual study. ... Bible classes are usually taught by those with a long track record, who are versed in restoration history.

Scripture, that pretty well sums up the main reason why, in general, those who are affiliated with the church of Christ are no longer known for their "Bible knowledge" especially in doctrinal matters. We were once known for being able to defend the truth when sound doctrine was derided upon.

Congregational singing without the aid of "praise team" performances and/or instrumental music was the church's trademark. Nowadays, a congregation's Praise Team-aided "praise worship" is no longer distinguishable from a Baptist Church's choir- and/or instrumental music-aided "praise worship." Thankfully, "Praise Team" singing is not dominant among churches of Christ. Not yet. But is it just a matter of the passing of a generation or two?

I wonder how many of the preachers now are versed in Restoration history. I know that there are still some elders [the seniors] who are versed in Restoration history. Even if there are, I'm somewhat doubtful that they really stress the significance of those who paved the way for us from the standpoint of its principles, as in its departure from denominationalism and its plea to return to New Testament Christianity.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Church and Ecclesia

July 29 2017, 10:21 PM 

When the elders give subservience to their pastor, we have the beginning of hierarchy...."

Scripture, this really should be an eye-opener to those purpose-driven congregations of the church of Christ. Change agents operating in the brotherhood are in favor of some kind of ecumenism -- the notion that "the church of Christ" is just another denomination and that all denominations are the same and "equal." And Christ is the head of all denominations?

Sounds like a Protestant pope would be a great idea in the Protestant world and among change agents in the brotherhood ... so as to counter the pope and his successors in the Catholic Church government or combat the papacy and Roman Catholicism. I would think the "progressive" churches of Christ and their ecumenical agents would not be opposed to this idea.

And based on "authoring the most books," Rick Warren of the Community Church Movement and Pastor Max Lucado of the Progressive Church [formerly "of Christ"] would be the most/best qualified. Where would be its Vatican-like headquarters? California or Texas?

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Ken Sublett
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Grace Centered means "The Holiness of Sin."

July 30 2017, 12:46 PM 

Karen Armnstrong, in A History of God notes that ritual and symbol of image is femine while devotion to the WORD if masculine. Defining a periodic, David-like, loss of contact with God and fearfulness that the universe would collapse unless they held an Aztec-like Jubilee, she observes:

"A new type of piety developed alongside the rationalism of the Enlightenment, which is often called 'the religion of the heart.' Although it was centered in the heart rather than the head, it shared many of the same preoccupations as Deism.

It urged men and women to abandon external proofs and authorities and discover the God who was within the heart and capacity of everybody. (Armstrong. p. 315)

"History notes that when religion swings from repression to permissiveness,
those with mental disorders lose their emotional footing and [Parkes says "emotionally and sexually abnormal] react by flaunting the violation of previous religious views.

"Albert C. Ouler points out that the new religion of the heart and the rationalism of the Enlightenment were both antiestablishment and both mistrusted external authority; both ranged themselves with moderns against the ancients...

Many of these sects seemed to respond to the immense changes of the period by violating religious taboos. Some appeared blasphemous; some were dubbed atheistic, while others had leaders who actually claimed to be incarnations of God. [Or perhaps the 13th Apostle?]

"The accounts that we have of their lives suggest mental disorder."
"The Ranters "deliberately broke Christian taboos in their libertarian creed and

GRACE CENTERED repudiates GOD'S regulative Principle
blasphemously claimed that there was no distinction between God and man.

Some Ranters claimed to be the MESSIAH, a reincarnation of God, who was to establish a new kingdom." (Armstrong 320) [A new Wineskin]

Russ Adcox At Maury Hills:

1) Why did you include the senior minister position with the elders? The reason I included this position as a restriction is because in many churches (including Maury Hills) the senior minister operates in a very similar capacity as an elder in that he provides AUTHORITATIVE TEACHING and oversees the affairs of the church. In our context, the elders have delegated a good deal of AUTHORITY to me in regards to preaching/teaching, leading the staff, overseeing the daily operations/ministry of the church, having a vote in key decisions, etc.

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Matthew 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Pater: Author of Odes father, author, “aoidan or discourses

Aoide or ODE 2. act of singing, song 5. = eppsdē, spell, incantation (unless lēgousi t' aoidēs be read) MEANING leave off, cease speaking, stop singing,

Plat. Phaedrus 257b And if in our former discourse Phaedrus and I said anything harsh against thee, blame Lysias, the FATHER of that DISCOURSE, make him to cease from such speeches,

PATER Epithet of ZEUS the Father of the is also Khronos or KAIROS who is the FATHER of the Maury Hills, North Boulevard etc church planting: KAIROS is the Demon son of Zeus and in 1 Corinthians 10 Paul called the Instrumental-Trinitarian-Perverted worship DEMON WORSHIP.

in the self-exaltation of the Ranters or the Inner Light of the Quakers it is possible to see an aspiration that was similar to that expressed a century later by the French revolutanaries who enthroned the Goddess of Reason in the Pantheon."

"William Franklin, a respectable householder, became mentally ill in 1646 after his family had been smitten by plague. He horrified his fellow Christians by declaring himself to be God and Christ, but later recanted and begged pardon. He seemed to be in full possession of his faculties, but he still left his wife and began to sleep with other women...

Mary Gadbury began to see visions and hear voices, prophesying a new social order which would abolish all class distinctions." (Armstrong, p. 321)

Many of these sects were Messianic in tone and proclaimed the imminent arrival of a wholly new world." (Armstrong, p. 319)

"The sense of God has often been characterized by darkness and struggle in the West, as we have seen. Ranters like Clarkson and Coppe were flouting Christian taboos and proclaiming the holiness of sin at the same time as the witchcraft craze was raging in various countries of Europe. The radical Christians of Cromwell's England were also rebelling against a God and a religion which was too demanding and too frightening." (Armstrong, A History of God, p. 323)

Moses wrote ONLY because the rich fell back into Instrumental-Trinitarian-Prophecy. He was not discussing Jesus creating all of those Ice volcanos on Pluto. Moses began writing a history of the Hebrew People whose heaven and earth had become dark or ignorant. History knows that the Sumerians began collectivizing the people close to bc4000 and put the people under domination by a Civil-Military-Clergy towers of babbling.

It is hard to miss the radical deconstruction of God and faith led by those who collected all of those people by claiming to be PREACHERS OF THE GOSPEL but the confessing that they had a HIDDEN AGENDA to turn your property into a "theater for holy entertain" and the ticked price would be INCREASED as they laded more and more burdens of performance music and "taxes not in time of war." THEY CLAIM Ephesians 4 as authority for UNITY IN DIVERSITY meaning that if YOU want to be unionized you must take the mark. Jesus spoke through Paul to warn the APT elders to oust the cunning craftsmen or Sophists meaning self-speakers, singers or instrument players because THIS is the Christ-left mark of those LYING IN WAIT TO DECEIVE.

Scripture [the Bible] speaks of using such Friendship-Music as a way to SET AMBUSH. Jubilee Nashville was in response to the Pope's call for Jubilee 2000 where everyone must gather at the designated church TO BE REDEEMED. The seed was planted c. 1984-1989 which was BASED on the Disciples-Christian assault c. 1887 when the boast was "We will take Tennessee for the organ and society party withing five years."

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Jul 30, 2017 1:00 PM

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Grace Centered means &quot;The Holiness of Sin.&quot;

July 31 2017, 9:29 AM 

Rubel Shelly says that Paul was ALL things to ALL people meaning that he "fellowshipped" everyone in order to WIN them and thus discounting the power of the gospel. Paul meant what early preachers meant: when a farmer was picking cotton or putting out a fire the preacher became a cotton picker or a fire stopper.

"The late Dr. Charles R. Erdman, professor of practical theology at Princeton Theological Seminary at the turn of the century, also refutes the evangelism philosophies of modern day pastors, evangelists and church growth EXPERTS in his exposition of First Corinthians. Apparently, even in Erdman's day, Christian leaders were quoting the apostle

Paul's statement "I am become all things to all men" and using such scripture to support their QUESTIONABLE evangelism techniques.

Erdman says, "By this phrase Paul means EXACTLY the OPPOSITE of what it means in common speech today. He does not signify any weak compliance with the wrong actions and immoral practices of others.

"He is not approving the maxim: 'When in Rome do as the Romans do.'"

"No, Paul knew that to be a friend of the world is to be an enemy of God. He knew that God is holy, His Word is holy and that all believers are to be holy and separated from the world unto the Gospel of Jesus Christ. FOUNDATION Magazine.

"To the Jews, he became "as a Jew." When Paul was in the company of Jews, he refrained from doing anything that would offend them, even though he had the liberty to do those things. Gromacki mentions that "[Paul] did not alter his message or his morals. He was both firm and flexible at the same time." Again, Martin says, "It is as though Paul were admonishing that

"if you want to give a testimony for Christ to an orthodox Jew,
"you don't begin by serving him ham for dinner." Matt D. Costella FOUNDATION Magazine, Jan-Feb 1999

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Jul 31, 2017 9:35 AM

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Ken Sublett
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Hitler explaining the Shelly Driving Purpose

July 31 2017, 10:17 PM 

On the Front Page of Concerned Members David Rhoades compared the present MASS MOVEMENT or GROUP MIND to Adolph Hitler. This brought on great outrage. However, we posted Rubel Shelly above who was suggesting and trying to restructure all churches of Christ into a collective: Community Church as a stolen tithe means and is defined as a COMMUNE. Many churches become a Cult when it moves away from a weekly School of the Word.

We saw that happen when the locals and others went to Promise Keepers at Atlanta in 1996. In my old church in Seattle and locally you could see that the "leaders" had been radicalized into a movement doing worse things than cutting off your head. They will never confess that Brain Washing can happen as suddenly as the effect of Crack.

Time Magazine Published this article:

Hitler: "The mass meeting is also necessary for the reason that in it the individual, who at first while becoming a supporter of a young movement, feels lonely and easily succumbs to the fear of being alone, for the first time gets the picture of a larger community, which in most people has a strengthening, encouraging effect.

The same man, within a company or a battalion, surrounded by all his comrades, would set out on an attack with a lighter heart than if left entirely on his own.
.....In the crowd he always feels somewhat sheltered,
.....even if a thousand reasons actually argue against it.

But the community of the great demonstration not only strengthens the individual, it also unites and helps to create an esprit de corps.

The man who is exposed to grave tribulations, the first advocate of a new doctrine in his factory or workshop,
.....absolutely needs that strengthening which lies in the conviction
.....of being a member and fighter in a great comprehensive body.

And he obtains an impression of this body for the first time in the mass demonstration.
.....When from his little workshop or big factory, in which he feels very small,
.....he steps for the first time into a mass meeting
.....and has thousands and thousands of people of the same opinions around him,
.....when, as a seeker, (Als Suchender.' A Wagnerian phrase,
.....which Hitler was apparently determined to use at all costs)
.....he is swept away by three or four thousand others into the mighty
.....effect of suggestive intoxication and enthusiasm,
.....when the visible success and agreement of thousands
.....confirm to him the rightness of the new doctrine
.....and for the first time arouse doubt in the truth of his previous conviction -
.....then he himself has succumbed the magic influence of what we designate as 'mass suggestion.'

The will, the longing, and also the power of thousands are accumulated in every individual.
The man who enters such a meeting doubting and wavering leaves it inwardly reinforced:
.....he has become a link in the community.

The National Socialist movement must never forget this and in particular must never let itself be influenced by those bourgeois who know everything better,
.....but who nevertheless have gambled away a great state
.....including their own existence and the rule of their class."
.....he has become a link in the community.

The National Socialist movement must never forget this and in particular must never let itself be influenced by those bourgeois s who know everything better,
.....but who nevertheless have gambled away a great state
.....including their own existence and the rule of their class."

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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