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July 27 2017 at 3:46 PM
Rancor  (no login)
from IP address

by Catherine Beyer
Updated February 06, 2017

Nontrinitarianism is a belief denouncing the traditional Christian view of divinity in which God is composed of a trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The term is generally used to describe Christian beliefs that deny the divinity of God, but the term is sometimes also used to describe Judaism and Islam because of their relationship with Christianity.
Judaism and Islam

The God of the Hebrews is universal and indivisible.

This is one of the reasons Jews never create images of God: the infinite cannot be expressed in a mere image. While the Jews do believe a Messiah will one day come, he will be an ordinary person, not a divinity like the Christian Jesus.

Muslims have a similar belief concerning the unity and infinity of God. They do believe in Jesus and even believe he will return in the end times, but once again he is considered a mere mortal, just like any other prophet, brought back entirely through the will of God, not through any power wielded by Jesus.
Biblical Reasons for Denying the Trinity

Nontrinitarians deny that the Bible ever states the existence of the trinity and feel certain passages contradict the idea. This includes that fact that Jesus always refers to God in the third person and states there are things that God knows and he does not, such as the date of the end times (Matthew 24:36).

Many arguments in favor of the trinity come from the Gospel of John, a highly theological and metaphysical book, unlike the other three gospels, which are primarily narrative.
Pagan Precursors of the Trinity

Some nontrinitarians believe the trinity was originally a pagan belief that was fused with Christianity via syncretism. However, the examples that are commonly given for pagan trinities simply don't equate. Groups such as Osiris, Iris, and Horus are a group of three gods, not three gods in one.

No one worshiped those gods as if they were ultimately only one being.
Nontrinitarian Groups in History

Throughout history, multiple nontrinitarian groups have developed. For many centuries, they were condemned as heretics by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, and in places where they were a minority, they were often executed if they did not conform to the wider trinitarian view.

These include Arians, who followed the beliefs of Arius, who refused to accept the trinitarian view at the Council of Nicaea in 325. Millions of Christians remained Arians for centuries until Catholicism/Orthodoxy eventually prevailed.

Various gnostic groups, including the Cathars of the 12th century, were also anti-trinitarian, although they held numerous additional heretical views, including reincarnation.
Modern Non-Trinitarian Groups

Christian denominations today include Jehovah's Witnesses; Church of Christ, Scientist (i.e. Christian Science); New Thought, including Religious Science; Church of Latter Day Saints (i.e. Mormons); and Unitarians.
Who Is Jesus in a Non-Trinitarian View?

While nontrinitarianism states what Jesus isn't – one part of a triune god – there are many different views as to what he is. Today, the most common views are that he is mortal preacher or prophet who brought knowledge of God to humanity, or that he was a being created by God, reaching a level of perfection not found in humanity, but distinctly less than God.
Famous Nontrinitarians

Outside of those who founded non-trinitarian movements, the most well known non-trinitarian is probably Sir Isaac Newton. During his life, Newton often kept the details of such beliefs to himself, as it could potentially have brought him trouble in the late 17th century. Despite Newton's reservations on publicly discussing trinitarian matters, he still managed to compose more writings on various aspects of religion than he did on science.


I'm looking for y'all a Bible. happy.gif


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Donnie Cruz
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Re: Nontrinitarianism

July 28 2017, 1:30 AM 

The title of Catherine's article is: "The Basics of Nontrinitarianism" at this link:

The site's claim ( ) is that: " is the World's Largest Education Resource" happy.gif

I would say that nontrinitarianism predates the invention of the pagan-based Trinity Creed (officially approved by the Council of Nicaea near the end of the 4th century). God's followers in the Old Testament era were Trinity-ignorant (did not believe in three-Gods-in-one or one-God-in-three).

The New Testament says nothing about "a triune god" nor of "the Son of God" being "one part of a triune god."

Let the discussion begin.

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Ken Sublett
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July 28 2017, 9:45 AM 

Jesus said that those who claimed that He was or Claimed to be God were BLASPHEMING when over and over He said that He was the SON OF GOD. Once you have blasphemed it is A MARK that you cannot stop.

Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:
Deut. 6:5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Trinitarians call Moses a liar

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him,
.....Why callest thou ME good?
.....there is none good but one, that is, God.

ME is not GOD.

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is,
.....Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE Lord:
Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Trinitarians call Jesus a liar
Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well,
.....Master, thou hast said the truth:
.....for there is ONE God; and there is NONE OTHER but HE

Trinitarians call the Scribe a liar

1Tim. 2:5 For there is ONE GOD,
.....and one mediator between God and men,
.....the MAN Christ Jesus;

Trinitarians call Paul a liar

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Jul 28, 2017 10:23 AM

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(no login)

Hurry Up and Wait..

July 28 2017, 10:42 AM 

Ken, I am trying to find a Bible for you and Donnie boy. Run along and practice your BLASPHEMING. See you later.

BTW is that all the font you got?


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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Hurry Up and Wait..

July 28 2017, 2:28 PM 

Let's be thankful for HTML.

"FONT SIZE=4..." may be average;

"FONT SIZE=8..." may be for the visually impaired or comprehension-incapacitated.

"FONT SIZE=8 COLOR=RED..." [bolded] may be for the liberal/progressive/Democrat-leaning, doctrinally speaking.

Just a thought. happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif

By the way, Rancor, I agree with you: let's rely on the Bible -- not the ever-changing, constantly-modified Roman Catholic Church Catechism and other man-made manuals and creeds.

Personally, I use the KJV Bible. I use mainly the KJV online for searches and easy copy-and-paste functions.


I would like to include in the expression "R.I.N.O." [Republican in Name Only; pronounced rhi·no /ˈrīnō/]. It should state:

........"the liberal/progressive/Democrat-leaning/R.I.N.O., doctrinally speaking"

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Jul 28, 2017 3:17 PM

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Re: Hurry Up and Wait..

August 2 2017, 9:23 AM 

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Hurry Up and Wait..

August 2 2017, 6:05 PM 

RINOs in the church of Christ should return to being true disciples (learners) of Christ. The KJV, one of the better translations around, is a good source of study -- instead of Max Lucado's manuals for the progressives or Rick Warren's purpose- and culture-driven instructions for church growth or the Roman Catholic Church's paganism-filled creeds.

It is evident that the doctrine of Christ presented here with hundreds of scriptural references is being rejected by RINOs in the church.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Nontrinitarianism

July 28 2017, 2:56 PM 

There are almost countless references to (1) God and (2) Jesus Christ as being mutually exclusive, as well as not interchangeable. Without prejudice (with an open mind), let's begin with the following references (and there are many, many more) clearly indicating that "the Son of God" and "God the Father" are NOT co-Gods:

  • Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. (John 6:27, KJV)

  • But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (I Cor. 8:6, KJV)

  • Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) [Gal. 1:1, KJV]

  • Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, (Gal. 1:3, KJV)

  • Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Eph. 6:23, KJV)

  • And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil. 2:11, KJV)

  • Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. (I Thess. 1:1, KJV)

  • To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. (II Tim. 1:2, KJV)

  • To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. (Titus 1:4, KJV)

  • Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (I Peter 1:2, KJV)

  • For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (II Peter 1:17, KJV)

  • Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. (II John 1:3, KJV)

  • Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: (Jude 1:1, KJV)

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Re: Nontrinitarianism

July 30 2017, 4:07 PM 

The denominationalists look at all the many New Testament verses that mention faith for salvation but that say nothing about baptism in the same verses and conclude that baptism is not essential for salvation. The denominationalists conveniently overlook those few verses that mention the necessity of baptism for salvation and remission of sins (e.g., Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21). Since faith verses outnumber baptism verses, denominationalists erroneously conclude that, because "the majority rules," then faith, but not baptism, is necessary for salvation.

Likewise, some members of the church of Christ look at all the many NT verses that mention God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ and conclude that the two are mutually exclusive. Those people conveniently overlook the several verses that tell us God and Jesus are One and the same Entity (e.g., Word was with God, Word was God, Word became flesh [i.e. Jesus]; I and my Father are One; He who hath seen Me hath seen the Father; mighty God, everlasting Father, Prince of Peace; Emmanuel, God with us). Since verses implying that "God and Jesus are separate" outnumber verses implying that "Jesus is God," some CofC members erroneously conclude that, because "the majority rules," then Jesus is not God.

When you consider the whole picture, you realize that faith AND baptism are required for salvation, just as God AND Jesus exist together, not as two separate Divine Beings but as ONE Divine Being with simultaneous manifestations.

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: Nontrinitarianism

July 30 2017, 4:35 PM 

But Trinitarians believe that (1) God the Father and (2) the Son of God the Father are two persons (or beings); in fact, including their perception of (3) God's Holy Spirit as the third (#3) person (or being) -- that they are three (3) persons.

So, you do not subscribe to: "God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity"?

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Re: Nontrinitarianism

July 30 2017, 5:51 PM 

To suggest that: (1) the sender [God] and (2) the one sent [Jesus] are the same being is nonsensical -- it implies that God is the Messiah and that He sent Himself to earth. That concept also suggests that God was crucified, that God died, that God resurrected Himself from the dead. On the contrary, God raised Jesus from the dead.

"God" and "the Son of God" are not equated in the Scripture. There is a relationship, instead, between them: not as conjoint twins, but rather as the Father and as the Son -- even a third grader or someone younger can understand that truth.

Both God (the Father) and Jesus (the Son) are one in that they are united in spirit, in purpose.

There are numerous passages indicating that there is only one God, i.e., the Father Himself. Trinitarians cannot change that truth.

There is only one (begotten) Son of God, Jesus Christ. There are about 50 passages that identify Jesus as "the Son of God" and some 90 passages as "the Son of man." It will certainly insult God to refer to Him or address Him as "the Son of man" or as "the Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6).

That's considering "the whole picture." It's not based on the man-concocted misinterpretion and mistranslation of a portion of God's Word in its original text.

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Trinity Debunked: Jesus Christ Has a HEAD, a FATHER and a GOD

July 30 2017, 2:44 PM 

Trinity Debunked: Jesus Christ has a HEAD, a FATHER and a GOD --

From the Scripture ONLY (and notice the preposition "OF"; the adjective/pronoun "MY"; and the conjunction "AND"):

  • But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God (I Cor. 11:3, KJV)

  • The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.(II Cor. 11:31, KJV)

  • Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:(Eph. 1:3, KJV)

  • One God and Father of all, who is bove all, and through all, and in you all.(Eph. 4:6, KJV)

  • Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,(I Peter 1:3, KJV)

  • Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.(John 20:17, KJV)

  • And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?(Matt. 27:46, KJV)

  • And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?(Mark 15:34, KJV)

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Nontrinitarianism

July 30 2017, 3:02 PM 

Nontrinitarianism is a belief denouncing the traditional Christian view of divinity in which God is composed of a trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

My posted thesis is that H. Leo Boles then of the Gospel Advocate and Lipscomb College is the first person in recorded history to define God as "three separated PERSONS each with their own centers of consciousness and each with their own talent and ranked 1, 2, 3.

John wrote several decades after Christ and corrected many of the Jewish and Gnostic views troubling the church. In many ways John has Jesus calling those who claimed that He was God or equal to God blasphemers. Now, I know that "Scripture never says 'though shalt not be a blasphemer."

Afterward Theophilus wrote of the Greek TRIAS to refute the always-pagan view in families of gods consisting with father, mother (spirit) and little impotent son who needed his mother as MEDIATRIX.

[linked image]

There is a MAJOR INDUSTRY controlling once-Christian Bible colleges and workshops or CHURCH COUNCILS denying that God commands inclusively and exclusively. Both pagan polytheism and musical performance to enable the claim that A spirit is guiding them. This is based on the tripple goddesses.

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: Nontrinitarianism

July 30 2017, 4:19 PM 

Catherine's article in the initial post: "The God of the Hebrews is universal and indivisible."

Question: Since the Trinitarian dogma states that Jesus is God, was Jesus the God of the Hebrews? If so, then prove it.

I wonder often about the numbering system employed in the Trinity personages: First Person: God the Father; Second Person: God the Son; Third Person: God the Holy Spirit. Is this ordering system based on "age" (chronologically)? Or of importance (attributes)? Why was Jesus not the "First Person"; etc.?

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Nontrinitarianism

July 30 2017, 4:43 PM 

I have read a bunch of denominational statements and I don't believe that they are as extreme as that promoted by LU and the Gospel Advocate Sunday School literature. I was in a class using their literature and thought that it was safe to question the dogma: I found out in a sudden and even threatening voice that I was blaspheming. They were worshuping God the further, Jesus the Son and the Huly spurt in a song. One of my friends wrote s short story about the Battle between the Unums and Trads.

Glenn Colley as Part of the Gospel Broadcasting Network says that:

Father is God
Jesus is God
Holy Spirit is God

To his credit, he is one of two willing to challenge me on all of the list of proof texts which comes stapled to all of the Preacher's License.

This is radical since other than an swarm of Forumites, the formula is Father, Son and Spirit: that is indeed a TRIAS because Historic Scholarship and the early creeds explain that:

Father is the author or originator of Divine Thought
Father BREATHES which is never a Spirit Person.
Son receives the breath-spirit WITHOUT METRON which is logically without METER.
The Son SPEAKS the Word, Logos or Regulative Principle and never SINGS it or commands singing. Because He is our only TEACHER and we are DISCIPLES claiming SINGING as a method of delivery would accuse Jesus with being more ignorant or tolerant than a Lecturer in Physics.

As far as I know no one has ever named their Child Father, Son or Holy Spirit. Trinity does not define persons but explains for we weaklings that God operates like His Creatures who are body, soul or life and spirit. Paul draws that analogy

1Cor. 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by HIS Spirit: for the Spirit [OF GOD] searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

If the Spirit is another god person the God the Father cannot even know anything about the DEEP THINGS in His Nature.

1Cor. 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the SPIRIT of God.
1Cor. 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit OF the world, but the spirit WHICH is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1Cor. 2:16 For who hath known the MIND of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the MIND of Christ.

False THEOLOGIANS do not and probably CANNOT read and parse anything in Scripture and are given a TABLE to be used in SELLING LEARNING AT RETAIL. Spirit and Mind are used interchangeably many times. Maybe the trinitarian's MIND is really ANOTHER PERSON??

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Nontrinitarianism

July 30 2017, 6:19 PM 

Radical and extreme, indeed!

It wouldn't seem radical and extreme if it's coming from the Roman Catholic Church and its papacy; or from amenable, Catholic-following Protestants; or from progressive, Restoration Movement illiterates in the brotherhood. It's no surprise because we're accustomed to hearing this creed recited by these folks.

But when this man-made creed is supported by church of Chrst-affiliated institutions which now pattern their theological studies after denomination-owned theological seminaries, it becomes a colossal issue.

How sad and unfortunate!!!

You will find the truth in Scripture that there is only one true God the Father.

You will NOT find in the Scripture "that Jesus is God or co-God" or that Jesus declared himself: "I am God."

You will NOT find in the Scripture that God's holy Spirit is a person, or the person #3, or God or co-God.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Nontrinitarianism

July 30 2017, 6:44 PM 

It is impossible to believe that any dedicated reader of Scripture even without a Phd is so profoundly ignorant without the gift of a strong delusion: the alternative makes you grasp that there really is only a little flock of lost spirits somehow stranded on the Planets of the Apes.

The Book of Enoch quoted by Jude warns against the FOREORDAINED and many other papers by Jews who were never fooled proves that those who have come down from God's holy mountain into the dark soil of the Cainites ignored the warning and understood "no turning back." The story goes that the mixed-sex choirs, instruments of music, and "putting on of apparel (clergy) brought on an outbreak of sexual immorality but they kept performing seeking affirmation by converts.

This year at Pepperdine, as I always feared, broke out on stage one and by those Paul tried to silence. Even though there are only a tiny few ladies lusting for the role and dole which is OUTLAWED, when the outbreak comes it will always be by effeminate males dragging females to perform.

Jude spoke of the Instrumental-Trinitarian-perverted "play" as a PATTERN to watch by those FOREORDAINED to those "ministries of self."

"You are going to find a lot of a cappella churches that are gonna' start saying Sunday morning we are going to be a cappella, but after that, we are going to let a lot of freedom reign, which is pretty much what we do at Richland Hills. You walk into our youth center Sunday morning or Wednesday night: and I'm telling you; Christian rock an' roll is just blasting" (p. 9).

Sara Barton: my pastoral impulse this week is to proclaim the message of the Song of Songs. And here’s why: We desperately need public, communal language about sex, and we have an oft-overlooked resource in the Bible.

Song of Songs is unique in several ways, one of which is the fact that it’s the only place in Scripture where a woman’s voice leads the conversation (the woman speaks 61 of 117 verses). In light of what we’ve heard lately, it seems like a good time to let a wise woman speak about sexual activity that’s right and good, a woman who not only speaks but sings and shouts about intimate, sensual, erotic passion. And in all her talk about kissing, touching, tasting, and smelling, she does not offend with crass or vulgar language. She exemplifies how it’s possible to speak about sex and intimacy appropriately. We might do well to let her teach us a thing or two.

She gets endorsement when she Jokes about "Her husband plowing her garden". Of course we have this pattern on clay tablets.

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There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

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The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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