Place your banner ad here.          See all banner ads

|| ConcernedMembers.com || About || Links Library || Help Warn Others ||
|| Madison Church of Christ || Richland Hills Church of Christ || Hillcrest Church of Christ || More Churches || Sunday School in Exile ||

Where is my NewThisWeek Email subscription?Click Here

Place your text ad here.           See all text ads

  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>  
Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Scripture Against Scripture? NOT

August 5 2017, 7:46 PM 

Dave said above:
God gave all power to Jesus, and God still is in charge. THAT MEANS....read slowly...JESUS and GOD has the POWER. WHY??? [emphasis mine, d.c.]

A faulty statement:

(1) Dave believes that when God gave ALL power to Jesus, Jesus became God.
(2) "God is in charge" is correct: God the Father is greater than Jesus.
(3) "God is in charge" means Jesus is in subordination (Heb. 5:8,9)--they're not equal.
(4) "JESUS and GOD" is correctly stated -- two separate beings.
(5) "JESUS and GOD has" is grammatically incorrect--Dave is making Jesus God

No, Bill, the Bible does not teach that Jesus IS God. The apostatizing bishops of Rome decreed that man-made creed in the 4th century. "All things are possible with God" would not change the truth that God sent the Messiah to earth. God did not send Himself to be born (become flesh) or become a baby and to increase "in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man" (Luke 2:52).


 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Scripture Against Scripture? NOT

August 6 2017, 10:55 PM 

In "Silence is Golden" (August 5 2017, 4:47 PM), Bill posted:
Jesus was the image of God on earth, because God, being Eternal Spirit, could not reveal His true appearance to man lest man die. Physical man could not stand in the actual presence of God. Therefore, God/the Word took upon Himself the form of the physical man Jesus (the Word became flesh). The verses we've mentioned before attest to that: mighty God/everlasting Father/Prince of Peace, God with us, Jesus and the Father are One, he who has seen Jesus has seen the Father, etc.

Many in Christendom use these and other quotes from the Scripture in their attempt to prove that the Pope's Trinity creed is correct.

(1) Mighty God. The reference to God is that of "the Almighty God" (Gen. 17[1]; Ezek. 10[5]; Rev. 19[15]. Jesus is not referred to as "God" in the Bible; much less as "the Almighty God." Jesus was prophesied to be mighty god or mighty ruler of his kingdom.

(2) Everlasting Father. Only Isaiah 9:6 mentions this expression and is not referencerd anywhere else in the Bible. Yes, there are numerous references to God as "the Father of Jesus Christ" Rom. 15[6]; 2 Cor. 1[3]; 2 Cor. 11[31]; Eph. 1:3,17; and many more). Jesus in Isaiah 9:6 in context was prophesied as "the father" (originator) of the endless age of his rule in his kingdon (the church).

(3) Prince of Peace. Being named or called "Prince of Peace" is appropriate in Jesus' case. But don't ever insult God the Father with equating Him to being "Prince of Peace. After all, the Father is "the God of Peace" (Rom. 15[33]; Rom. 16[20]; Phil. 4[9]; 1 Thess. 5[23]; Heb. 13[20]).

(4) God with us. "God with us" is not a sentence. No, "God with us" does not make Jesus God. Rather, that means that with the presence of Jesus, God is with us.

(5) Jesus and the Father are One. The word "One" is capitalized? God and Jesus are not conjoined. The are united; they are one in purpose, but not as one being.

(6) He who has seen Jesus has seen the Father. This is a desperate claim. Keep in mind that Jesus is THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD.

Each of these individual claims in the attempt to make Jesus God deserves to be discussed in more detail. None of the above declares that Jesus is God no matter how deep and intense the perception is.

 
 Respond to this message   
Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

Confusion is Good

August 7 2017, 11:54 PM 

Revelations 22 where it is stated
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
is attributed to Jesus.

where in Revelations 1
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty....is attributed to God, possibly Jesus also.


They sound similar, don't they???

Is confusion a contradiction or what God had in mind? God wants to show you that His Son is just as He is.


 
 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Confusion is Good

August 8 2017, 9:11 AM 

Heb. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Heb. 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of OUR FAITH; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Heb. 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Confusion Is: (1+1 = 1) or (1+1+1 = 1)

August 9 2017, 2:49 AM 

Dave,

Yes, there are titles that apply to both (1) God and (2) Jesus.

(1) But there are titles that apply only to God: Almighty ... the Father ... the head of Christ ... the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ... the God of heaven ... the God of your fathers ... the God of Israel ... the God of peace .. the God of David ... etc. These titles do not apply to Jesus.

(2) There are titles that apply only to Jesus: the Son of God ... the Son of man ... the Christ ... the image of God ... the image of the invisible God ... the prophet of Nazareth ... Prince of Peace ... the author and finisher of our faith ... the mediator of the new covenant ... the son of David ... the Son of the living God ... the Son of the Blessed ... the chosen of God ... the Saviour of the world ... the power of God ... the wisdom of God ... the Son of the Father ... etc. These titles do not apply to God.

Yes, the titles in some passages in Revelation apply to Jesus. The titles in the passage (Rev. 1:8) apply to God, the Almighty God -- you will not find a single passage that refers to Jesus as the Almighty God.

The title in Isaiah 44:6 applies to God as the man Jesus did not exist then -- "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

The title in Isaiah 48:12 applies to God as the man Jesus did not exist then -- "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

There are those who make the assumption that when the same title applies to both the Father (God) and the Son (Jesus Christ), they must both be God. However, there is no biblical justification on which to base that assumption. There are same titles that are used for God, Christ and even men: "Lord" is a good example. If other titles apply to God, Christ and men without making all of them into “one God,” then there is no reason to assume that this particular title would mean they were one God unless Scripture specifically told us so. Well, the Scripture does not.

 
 Respond to this message   
Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

Donnie's False Logic

August 9 2017, 1:03 PM 

Revelations 22
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
is attributed to Jesus.

Revelations 1
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty....is attributed to God, possibly Jesus also.

Revelations 22 is attributed to Jesus. God is the ONLY beginning and end.
Jesus, HIMSELF, called HIMSELF this title.

Jesus is God.

So, Donnie, keep talking about how your false logic implies that God is the Son, and God sits on the right hand side of Himself.

YOUR FALSE logic...that is all it will ever be.

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: The Pope's Creed and Dave's Logic Match

August 9 2017, 11:22 PM 

Dave,

There's no argument in the sharing of certain titles (including "first and last," etc.) between:

----- (1) God
---------- and ------------
----- (2) the Son of God.


The separate Beings we're referring to are:

----- (1) Jehovah: the name of God
---------- and -------------
----- (2) Jesus Christ: the name of the Son of God.


Just remember John 1:14 -- the LOGOS (WORD) OF GOD was what became flesh: Jesus born 2000 years ago. And there was no Jesus prior to that. (NOTE: "word" is spoken or written.) Even during creation, "GOD SAID:" numerous times in the 1st chapter of Genesis. Indeed, God SPOKE. The Word of God (that became flesh in John 1:14) was in the beginning with God. THE LOGOS OF GOD -- you will find this in Revelation 19:13.

In the book of Revelation, God and Jesus Christ are mentioned, not as conjoined Beings, but separately. In the book of John, it's the same: expressions such as "my Father and I"; "my Father" is mentioned over 60 times in the N.T.

That "God sits on the right hand side of Himself" is CERTAINLY YOUR LOGIC when you substitute "God" for "the man Jesus Christ" -- not mine, Dave.

"God is the Son" is certainly NOT my logic. It is YOUR logic when you say that Jesus the Son of God is God.

 
 Respond to this message   
Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

One Verse is Enough and the DO NOT CONTRADICT

August 10 2017, 11:09 AM 

Those two titles, the beginning and the end (the first and the last), the Alpha and the Omega describe God.....NO OTHER can claim such.

These Scriptures speak of both God and Christ as being ONE GOD.

Just a few verses, yes, but that is all I need.

YOU mentioned that junk about God sitting on the right hand of God. It will be attributed to your logic.

God being the son is YOUR logic, and will be attributed to you.

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: One Verse is Enough and the DO NOT CONTRADICT

August 11 2017, 12:06 AM 

Dave,

The Scripture agrees with you when you say both "God and Christ." The conjunction "and" [ask Bill Crump about conjunctions] identifies THEM (not HIM) as two separate Beings. The problem, though, with the grammar expert [Bill] is that the conjunction "and" loses its significance completely whenever BOTH God AND Christ are mentioned in numerous passages.

One Being (God the Father) sent another Being, the Messiah, to earth. God did not become flesh as the Pope and his followers believe. Instead, it was the WORD (LOGOS) OF God (what God SPOKE) that was made flesh -- that occurred only two millennia ago.

The Scripture disagrees with and disproves Dave's perception/notion of BOTH God and Jesus Christ the Son of God as "being ONE GOD."

The Scripture can/does clearly teach that there is only ONE GOD -- not 2-Gods-in-One.

------ Mal. 2[10] ... hath not one God created us?
------ Mark 12[32] ... for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
------ Rom. 3[30] ... it is one God, which shall justify....
------ 1 Cor. 8[6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; AND one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
------ Eph. 4[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all....
------ 1 Tim. 2[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
------ Jas. 2[19] ... there is one God....

When Dave does not believe the Scripture saying that the MAN Christ Jesus is sitting on the right hand of God, it is conclusive that Dave believes that it is God [Jesus is God, according to Dave] sitting on the right hand of God -- now: that is Dave's fallacious and unscriptural logic.

When Dave says that the Son of God (Jesus) is God, it is conclusive that Dave believes that God is the Son of God -- now: that is Dave's fallacious, unscriptural logic.

"These Scriptures speak of both God and Christ as being ONE GOD," Dave says. That's Dave talking, not the Scripture.

 
 Respond to this message   
Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

Watch Where Lies Take You

August 11 2017, 8:10 AM 

Are you a liar Donnie? I didn't think so but you are telling a lie when you say "The Scripture disagrees with and disproves Dave's perception/notion of BOTH God and Jesus Christ the Son of God as "being ONE GOD.""

Your blue highlight and larger font cannot hide a lie.

You are attributed to the fallacy that God is the Son of God, and God is sitting on His Own right hand. YOU Donnie, made those conclusions from YOUR logic.

You told more than one lie there Donnie. You tell enough lies Donnie and you become a liar. I wouldn't think you would want that.

Remember, like you said Donnie, it is only a "few verses." It may only be one and if it is; then it is the Truthful Word of God and I will take that any day.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory,
the glory as of the ONLY BEGOTTEN of the FATHER,)
full of grace and TRUTH.


thy WORD is TRUTH


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 24.151.202.16 on Aug 11, 2017 6:14 PM


 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

re: Scripture vs. Dave's Logic

August 12 2017, 2:54 AM 

Verses regarding Jesus sitting on the right hand of God:
  • For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (I Tim. 2:5).
  • But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God (Heb. 10:12).
  • Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Matt. 25:64)
  • And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Mark 14:62)
  • [55] But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, [56] And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. (Acts 7)
  • Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. (Romans 8:34)
Draw your own conclusion based on what the scriptures say about Jesus being the Son of God/Son of man and what Dave and others who say about Jesus being God:

1. Scripture says: The man Jesus is on the right hand of God
2. Scripture says: Jesus is the Son of God
3. Dave believes: That since Jesus is God...
4. Dave concludes: Therefore, [Jesus who is] God is sitting on the right hand of God.


The other fallacy:

1. Scripture says: The only one true God is the Father
2. Scripture says: Jesus is the Son of God the Father
3. Dave believes: That since Jesus is God
4. Dave conclues: Therefore, [Jesus who is] the Son of God is God.

 
 Respond to this message   
Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

God from God Equals God

August 13 2017, 8:50 PM 

Yes, LET them draw their own conclusions. You, so far, Donnie, are the one making the conclusions, not Dave.

If Jesus and ONLY Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, THEN, that means that he is NOT of human lineage. He was given this lineage for he was born from a woman, and lived with humans, but HIS DNA is of GOD. Mary nor Joseph nor any other human was responsible for his DNA.

How you like that logic???

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: God from God Equals God

August 13 2017, 11:24 PM 

Dave,

I would say that those who follow your logic would come up with the same conclusion. Whether or not your logic is a fallacy based on a faulty premise(s), you make it so obvious. In other words, right or wrong, you make yourself clear. You've stated clearly that Jesus is God, even though I disagree with you and there's no scriptural support.

A good example of that is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. It teaches that since Mary is the mother of Jesus and since Jesus is God, therefore, "the Virgin Mary" is "the Mother of God." See what a wrong and faulty premise can lead you?

Regarding the lineage of Jesus, please read the following passages:

------ Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? (John 4:42, KJV)

------ Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; (Rom. 1:3, KJV)

------ Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: (II Tim. 2:8, KJV)

Why do you think the man Jesus Christ is also referred to in the New Testament as "the Son of man" 88 times?

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: God from God Equals God

August 14 2017, 8:14 PM 

[bumped]

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: God from God Equals God

August 14 2017, 8:15 PM 

[bumped]

 
 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

The BEGINNING began on the day of PENTECOST

August 9 2017, 7:34 PM 

The beginning or Arche of the Gospel of the Kingdom:

Col. 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col. 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross,
.....by him to RECONCILE all things unto himself;
.....by him, I say, whether they be things in earth,
.....or things in heaven.
Col. 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works,
.....yet now hath he reconciled
Col. 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death,
.....to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Jesus was not the firstborn from the dead and the church has not been empowered and therefore He did not have the preeminence or throne from eternity:

Matt. 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,
.....and upon this rock I WILL BUILD MY church; [kingdom]
.....and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you,
.....That there be some of them that stand here,
.....which shall not taste of death,
.....till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

THE BEGINNING IS DEFINED MANY TIMES:

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Mark 1:2 As it is written in the prophets,
.....Behold, I send my messenger before thy face,
.....which SHALL prepare thy WAY before thee.

The WAY is called a SECT: It BEGAN when the SECT of the Scribes and Pharisees was disarmed.

Beginning g746. arche, ar-khay´; from 756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank): — beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.

[linked image]


 
 Respond to this message   
Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

Worse than CNN

August 11 2017, 10:16 PM 

Ken, your mind hasn't left you yet, so if you want to edit something, edit your own junk!

Capiche?

 
 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Worse than CNN

August 11 2017, 10:35 PM 

[linked image]

 
 Respond to this message   
Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

???

August 13 2017, 9:45 PM 

Donnie said "(1) Dave believes that when God gave ALL power to Jesus, Jesus became God."

I did day that God gave all power to Jesus, but did I say that Jesus became God???

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: ??? -- Jesus (God) Given ALL Power By God?

August 13 2017, 11:37 PM 

Dave, please clarify for me then:

(1) What was Jesus before God gave him ALL power? Powerless? Almost as powerful as God?
(2) What was Jesus after God gave him ALL power?
(3) If Jesus was/is God, why would God still need to give God ALL power?

Just a few of questions.

 
 Respond to this message   
 
< Previous Page 13 4 5 6 710 Next >
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>  
Place your text ad here.           See all text ads

This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!

...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

Click Here......The Book is Available Now FREE

Place your banner ad here.           See all banner ads

...ConcernedMembers.com ...About ...Links Library ...Sunday School in Exile ...Help Warn Others


FastCounter by bCentral

CM Visit Counter as of 6/25/2015
2,101,394

Site Visits Since 6/30/2015
page counter