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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Quit Digging -- It Still Smells Trinitarianism

August 27 2017, 1:36 PM 

Dave,

You can repeat your 6 references a hundred or more times, but the views of "these men with credentials" still taste and smell trinitarian. They're applying English grammatical rules to the New Testament Greek text. The author John wrote the original text with the inspiration of God exactly as intended without the anticipation that the modern scholars and translators would really botch it up.

All these men with credentials have not engaged in discussing the 2nd clause: "the word was with the god." John wrote it that way ("the god") for a reason. But we'll discuss that more later on. (It appears that they have committed the "discussion sin of omission.)

All these men with credentials have engaged in discussing only the presence or absence of the indefinite article "a" in the third clause.

I have said that "the Word is a god" is not Donnie's translation. I have said that there are translations that render: (a) "the Word is a god" or (b) "the Word is godlike." There is not an "a" or a "the" in the 3rd clause of the original text!!!

I am NOT defending "a god" translation, but I must point out that translators are so happy when they think they have the liberty to add or omit an article ("a" or "the") whenever they take a notion to do so:

1. "a priest" instead of "priest" -- 5 occurrences in the N.T.
2. "a king" instead of "king" -- 7 occurrences in the N.T.
3. "a prophet" instead of "prophet" -- 25 occurrences in the N.T.
4. "a god" instead of "god" -- 4 occurrences in the N.T.


4.a -- For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. (Luke 20:38, KJV)

4.b -- And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man. (Acts 12:22, KJV)

4.c -- Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god. (Acts 28:6, KJV)

4.d -- For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (Heb. 8:10, KJV)


The original text as John wrote it:

"in the beginning was the word and the word was with the god and the word was god."


 
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Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

Come Out Come Out Wherever You Are

August 27 2017, 2:42 PM 

End of the road for you Donnie. Even Greek scholars that aren't Christians are slandered by you as trinitarians. If they aren't Christians they are can't be trinitarians and they are ONLY looking at the grammar. There is no 'the god,' and there is no 'a god.' Red and yellow, black and white, big font, whatever. You have been shown the door by Greek scholars. Doesn't this give you more excuse than ever to write your own translation? NIV is bad, according to you. KJV is written by trinitarians. You have run out of good translations.

New World Order translation used ONLY by jehovah witnesses.
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word,+ and the Word was with God,+ and the Word was a god

There you go Donnie. You don't always get what you want, but you sometimes get what you need.

Donnie, have you officially recognized yourself with them yet?
Are you just a closet JW, not yet ready to come out yet?

 
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Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

Funny is NOT Funny

August 27 2017, 2:58 PM 

Donnie said "The LOGOS (the WORD) of God is God's saying or His way of expressing His thoughts."

Your quote....did I make that up too?

The Word was NOT just a way of God expressing His thoughts. God's WORD eventually took on flesh and became the Savior of the world. That is why John mentioned that the WORD, being also the one with God in the beginning and that all things were created by the Word and God. WHY? They were the SAME. God in the flesh.
Do I sound like I am espousing vatican-laced communication? NO, I am quoting Scripture. That is what is killing you Donnie. So then you come up with this junk that if Mary is the mother of Jesus, then she is the mother of God. That is exactly why I called you an idiot. You deliberately talk jibberish.

John 19
26 When Jesus saw His mother and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, “Woman, here is your son.”

Donnie, Mary was ONLY the vessel by which Jesus was carried for 9 months. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. But still, you think being a dummy is funny.



You change the Scripture to fit your ideal.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Don't Need to 'Come Out" -- It Still Smells Trinitarian

August 27 2017, 4:37 PM 

Dave,

I have stated it several times already that "and the Word is a god" is not Donnie's translation. You've mistaken me for a JW translation.

Let's stick with the original text as John the inspired writer wrote it:

"in the beginning was the word and the word was with the god and the word was god."

Why I quoted those passages where translators added an indefinite article "a" when there isn't one in the original text was to show you their love for inconsistency. In other words, those translators and even your Trinitarian professors are the "pick-and-choose" kind of scholars.

Slander? And that's only against the opinions and views of your professors and scholars? This is a discussion forum. Dave, I'm not using Muslims, and I am not relying on Jehovah's Witnesses, to defend what the Scripture says.

My reliance is on the original text that I have already quoted numerous times.

That's what your professors should be honestly discussing. When they recognize that the definite article in "the god" is in the 2nd clause, they should be able to see why "the" is not in the 3rd clause as the writer John intended.

 
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Bill
(no login)
99.179.116.207

Re: Come Out Come Out Wherever You Are

August 27 2017, 4:40 PM 

Dave actually does make a good point. Donnie assumes that all Greek scholars who hold to "the Word was God" are Trinitarians. Yet not all Greek scholars are Christians. So how can a non-Christian be a Trinitarian? In reality, Donnie lost this one long ago, but he'll never concede defeat, because it's vitally important for Donnie to "win" every debate.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Funny is NOT Funny -- Catholicism: Mary Is the Mother of God (Jesus)

August 27 2017, 5:05 PM 

Dave,

You are correct: it was "THE LOGOS (THE WORD)" of God that became flesh. You know ... the Word that was born (became flesh) 2000 years ago -- his name was Jesus.

I am glad that it was the WORD (LOGOS) of God that "eventually took on flesh" (you said it). Glad to hear you admit it.

You would be opposing and rejecting the Scripture if you said "that God became flesh." It was "the Word" that became flesh. Yes!!!

John 1:14 could have easily stated: "And God became flesh." Sorry! Unfortunately for Dave, it says "And the Word became flesh."

Regarding Mary: You are agreeing with Catholicism with its idea that Jesus is God. That's risky and dangerous because when the Catholics say that since Mary is the mother of Jesus, therefore, she is "the Mother of God [Jesus]."

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Greek Scholars Who Hold to: 'the Word was God'

August 27 2017, 5:18 PM 

Bill,

I would encourage you to join the technical discussion of "Jesus is God." As a highly educated person, you are capable of doing so.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: When Dave's Scholars Are Ready for: 'the Word was with the God"

August 27 2017, 6:50 PM 

The original New Testament Greek text clearly states:

"in the beginning was the word and the word was with the god and the word was god."

One significant way of understanding why there is ONLY ONE TRUE LIVING GOD is by knowing the difference between: (1) "the God" in the 2nd clause and (2) "God" in the 3rd clause!!!

When "the God" is mentioned in the Scripture, it is alluding to the ONLY ONE TRUE GOD THE FATHER:

1. He is "the God" of Abraham
2. He is "the God" of Isaac
3. He is "the God" of Jacob
4. He is "the God" of Israel
5. He is "the God" of David thy father
6. He is "the God" of our fathers
7. He is "the God" of Jerusalem
8. He is "the God" of heaven ... and earth
9. ... and in many other passages.


That is what "the god" is in the 2nd clause: "and the Word was with the God"

John the inspired writer wrote in the 3rd clause: "and the Word was God."

Clearly: the inspired writer John was specific about "the God" not being in the 3rd clause. That was John the author of his book.

But concerning "the Word" WHICH became Jesus 2000 years ago, Dave's scholars and professors simply:

1. ... cannot prove that Jesus is the God of Abraham
2. ... cannot prove that Jesus is the God of Isaac
3. ... cannot prove that Jesus is the God of Jacob
4. ... cannot prove that Jesus is the God of Israel
5. ... cannot prove that Jesus is the God of David
6. ... cannot prove that Jesus is the God of our fathers
7. ... cannot prove that Jesus is the God of Jerusalem
8. ... cannot prove that Jesus is the God of heaven and earth

The inspired writer John knew that "the Word [WHICH] was with the God" is NOT "the Word [WHICH] was the God."

What are Dave's Greek scholars and professors afraid of?


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: When Dave's Scholars Are Ready for: 'the Word was with the God&quot;

August 27 2017, 8:21 PM 

Dave actually does make a good point. Donnie assumes that all Greek scholars who hold to "the Word was God" are Trinitarians. Yet not all Greek scholars are Christians. So how can a non-Christian be a Trinitarian? In reality, Donnie lost this one long ago, but he'll never concede defeat, because it's vitally important for Donnie to "win" every debate.

Everyone agrees that The Word was God and God was the WORD.

Almost NO ONE understands that the Word was not JESUS. Almost no one NEEDS to understand that the WORD is not another GOD PEOPLE. The Word in Greek is Dabar in Hebrew. I will keep on repeating knowing that no one is interested.

[linked image]


 
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Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

Dave Dave Dave Dave Dave

August 27 2017, 9:23 PM 

Ken said "Almost NO ONE understands that the Word was not JESUS."

Einstein himself.

No one is saying the Word was JESUS.

The Word became Jesus.

'Speak that which is written.

John 1
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Donnie said of William "I would encourage you to join the technical discussion of "Jesus is God." As a highly educated person, you are capable of doing so.

This is not a technical discussion of anything. When you don't add anything other than your opinion it is not even a discussion, much less a technical one. Donnie, you have an education also, but what good has that done you here?

Both you and Ken have been shown to be in error. You have been shown the way, now I am showing you the door.
Good luck with your 'since Mary is the mother of Jesus, then Mary is the mother of God' analogy.
It may not bode you well in the future, but it might make a good fictional novel someday.

Now you have the chance to tell your same biased error over and over again right here. Make sure to mention my name as often as possible.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Dave Dave Dave Dave Dave

August 27 2017, 10:54 PM 

Dave,

(1) I am very surprised that you [STILL] do not understand at all the Scripture telling you that "the God of" mentioned some 275 times in the entire Bible is "the God of" Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, David, et al. The only ONE TRUE GOD THE FATHER!!!

In fact, Jehovah is also "the God of" Jesus. What????? Watch this, Dave: "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:" (Ephesians 1:17, KJV).

(2) When the study of the New Testament Greek text is involved, it is a technical discussion. Although you've let your selected Greek scholars and professors do the talking for you, at least you've participated in the technical discussion. Your favorite brother Bill has not engaged in the technical discussion. Just a casual mention of non-Christian Greek experts who agree with the Trinitarian concept of the nature of God the Father and the nature of His Son Jesus Christ is not a technical discussion at all.

(3) You claim that Jesus is God. So do the Roman Catholics. Both you and the Catholics undoubtedly agree in that regard. You and the Catholics also agree that the Virgin Mary was the mother of Jesus. Based on that similar belief that you share with the Catholics that Jesus is God, the logic that follows is none other than: "Mary is the Mother of Jesus (God)".

(4) I'm confident in my belief that there is only one God the Father, there is only one Son of God, Jesus, whom God made both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36). And Jesus is THE IMAGE of the invisible God. The Scripture tells me that in a very simple, understandable manner. No one can go wrong with that teaching from the Scripture.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Dave Dave Dave Dave Dave

August 28 2017, 1:05 AM 

Donnie that sounds like that statements BRANDS or MARKS any level of polytheism.

1Tim. 2:5 For there is one God,
and one mediator between God and men,
the MAN Christ Jesus;

If Jesus as mediator is a MAN then the sentence ELIMINATES Jesus from being THE LORD GOD or one of THREE gods which calls Paul a liar for saying that there is ONE GOD.

Of the hundreds of passages we have posted, people are probably "OF THE WORLD" without A holy spirit and not only cannot read or accept that passage but are Purpose Driven to twist a few passages to try to defeat and fight against Christ and His Word.

Believeth Nots or Apistos does not mean "I just don't know enough to believe" but it means I AM IN REVOLT and I AM TREACHEROUS.

I suspect that people do not just understand but as Paul warned in Ephesians 4 are LYING IN WAIT TO DECEIVE.

The almost universal testimony that the ANTI-WORD "progressives" is that Rhetoric, singing, playing instruments, acting or periodic jestures INTEND TO INFLICT HURT.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

ROOT of the Musicators

August 29 2017, 1:17 AM 

We have noted that the trinity originated as tripple goddessess. In all pagan trinities there is father, mother and infant son.

We have discussed the fact that Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: speakers, singers or instrument players.

We have also discussed Paul's attack on JEWISH FABLES. Only the Prophets and other prophecies concerning Messiah are called HOLY SCRIPTURE.

The word LEVITE has more meaning than from the tribe of Levi. The Levites were an old infant burning priesthood in Egypt and in Jerusalem much of the time. Josephus calls the BRAHMIN derived from Indian

Vach with the female Logos, co-creator and mother of the gods:

As already stated, Aditi-Vâch is the female Logos, or the “word,” Verbum; and Sephira in the Kabala is the same. These feminine Logoi are all correlations, in their noumenal aspect,
of Light,
and Sound,
and Ether.[2]

Again, as goddess of Speech and of Sound, and a permutation of Aditi—she is Chaos [Tehom, Tiamat], in one sense. At any rate, she is the “Mother of the gods (Eve, Mary] ,” and it is from Brahmâ (Iswara, or the Logos) and Vâch, as from Adam Kadmon and Sephira,

MEDIATRIX TURNS TRICKS

Vach is also called Savitri (the generatrix), the mother of the gods and of all living. She is identical in the human range with Eve, who is also called the mother of all living. Ila or Ida is but the second repetition of Vach in a different period of cosmogony. Vach refers to the cosmic and divine theogony, while Ila refers to a later period in the earth's history when the physiological transformation of the sexes took place during the third root-race. In this last sense Vach corresponds with Eve.

Vach is often called Sandhya (twilight), also Satarupa (a hundred forms) to describe the feminine logos unfolded into the ten planes and subplanes of the universe. The cow is a symbol of Vach, for the cow has always been the emblem of the passive generative power of nature. Vach vac (Sanskrit) Sound, voice, word, the mystic sound (svara) or essence of spirit of the divine creative activity, the vehicle of divine thought; and of this the Word is the manifested expression. Vach, or its equivalents in other cultures, is always considered feminine.

Cosmically she is the carrier or mother of the Third Logos -- the Word or Verbum -- because of carrying perpetually within HER the essence of divine thought, the First Logos; and hence Vach is the Second Logos, equivalent to the early Christian Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost -- later transmogrified into a cosmic male. In Hindu mythology Brahma separates his body into masculine and feminine, the feminine becoming Vach, in whom he creates Viraj [Eve is Virus or Venom], who is himself again Brahma. Here we have the three Logoi:

Brahma, the First Logos, the divine thought;
Vach, the Second Logos, the divine voice; and
Viraj, the Third Logos, or the divine word,

Mystically Vach is masculine and feminine at will [ANDROGYNOUS WORSHIP LEADERS], as in the Hebrew Genesis Eve is with Adam. It is through her power that Brahma produced the universe. Vach through her productive powers produced what Pythagoras called the MUSIC of the spheres.

The teachings of Pythagoras [Jesus did not pray for this Kosmos] also speak of the hierarchies of the heavenly host as numbered and expressed in numbers. Vach is equivalent, in some aspects, to Isis, Aditi, mulaprakriti, the waters of space, chaos, and the Qabbalistic Sephirah.

"Whether as Aditi, or the divine Sophia of the Greek Gnostics, she is the mother of the seven sons: the 'Angels of the Face,' of the 'Deep,' or the 'Great Green One' of the 'Book of the Dead' " (SD 1:434). These feminine logoi are all correlations of light, sound, and ether. In many aspects Vach approaches Kwan-yin, [in Amos] she of the melodious voice.


PROGRESSIVE WITH THE PROMISED DELUSION "CRACK AWAY TO THE ARCHAIC AND FULFILL THE ROLE OF THE BABYLONIAN MOTHER OF HARLOTS. She uses lusted after fruits as speakers, singers, instrument players or ANYONE claiming a role ASSISTING God. They are called sorcerers and CAST ALIVE INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

 
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Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

Run Donnie Run

August 29 2017, 12:58 PM 

Ken said "As already stated, Aditi-Vâch is the female Logos, or the “word,” Verbum; and Sephira in the Kabala is the same. These feminine Logoi are all correlations, in their noumenal aspect,
of Light,
and Sound,
and Ether.[2]"

NOW THAT is the kind of information that the world needs. It should help with ???

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Is Jesus Just ANOTHER god?

August 29 2017, 4:26 PM 

[linked image]

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Is Jesus Just ANOTHER god?

August 29 2017, 4:46 PM 

Paul said that Eve was wholly seduced as a young bride is seduced before her husband and CAIN was OF THAT WICKED ONE.

[linked image]

"A primordial Egyptian god, whose name means "the hidden one." As the driving force of the invisible breeze he was originally a god of wind and ruler of the air. During the 11th dynasty (2133 - 2000 BC) he became the powerful sun-god of Thebes, where he was worshipped as Amun-Re. Later he was made the supreme god of the entire realm and king of the gods.

In the Ogdoad of Hermopolis he forms a pair with the mother-goddess Amaunet. From his union with the goddess Mut came forth the moon-god Chons. Amun's symbol is the ram. He is portrayed as a ram, as a man with a ram's head, or with a beard and a feathered crown. Temples dedicated to him are situated as Karnak and Deir-el-Bahari (near Luxor). In Greece he was worshipped as Ammon.

Egypt's history is nearly as old as Sumeria's. In his Egyptian Myths, George Hart shows how Egypt also believed in a "transcendental, above creation, and preexisting" one, the god Amun. Amun was really three gods in one. Re was his face; Ptah his body; and Amun his hidden identity (24) The well-known historian Will Durant concurs: "In later days Ra [sic], Amon [sic], and Ptah were combined as three embodiments or aspects of one supreme and triune deity."

(Our Oriental Heritage, 201) A hymn to Amun written in the 14th century BC distinguishes the Egyptian trinity: "All Gods are three: Amun, Re, Ptah: they have no equal. His name is hidden as Amun, he is Re before [men], and his body is Ptah." (Hornung, 219)


http://www.piney.com//DocBookDead.html#RA

Being ignorant does not make you holy spirit inspired. If you don't know history you WILL repeat it. The Instrumental-Trinitarian-Perverted idolatru os Satanic Trinity.

Music means to "make the lambs dumb before the slaughter." It really works, huh?

 
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Dave
(no login)
66.112.162.15

Greek Mythology Bait to Entice Dialogue

August 30 2017, 6:11 PM 

Its's not working, is it Ken?
Good try though.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Greek Mythology? (Yes, in the Trinity Doctrine)

August 31 2017, 6:14 PM 

Dave,

It's more like you've been enticed by the ancient Sumerian, Assyrian and Babylonian triads. Then ... by the Egyptian myths. (Is this the "Greek mythology bait"?)

Then, the Christian Trinity descending from the Etruscan and Roman triads? This is colossal: the comparison of Roman paganism and the Roman Catholic Church.

Let's face it. Here's the quote from "The Origin of the Trinity: From Paganism to Constantine:

World conditions were hardly conducive to the foundation of a new and different religion. Pagan gods were still the gods of the state, and the Roman government was very superstitious. All calamities were considered the displeasure of the gods. When the dissolute Roman government began to crumble, it was not seen as a result of corruption within, but as the anger of the gods; and thus there were strong persecutions against Christians to placate these gods.

In such a time was Christianity born. On one side were persecutions; on the other the seduction of philosophy. To remain faithful to the belief of Jesus Christ meant hardship and ridicule. It was only for the simple poor and the rich in faith. It was a hard time to convert to Christianity from the relatively safer paganism. In the desire to grow, the Church compromised truth, which resulted in confusion as pagans became Christians and intermingled beliefs and traditions. In his Emergence of Catholic Tradition, Pelikan discusses the conflict in the Church after AD 70 and the decline of Judaic influence within Christianity. As more and more pagans came into Christianity, they found the Judaic influence offensive. Some even went so far as to reject the Old Testament (13-14).

With this background, the growth and evolution of the Trinity can be clearly seen. As previously stated, the Bible does not mention the Trinity. Harnack affirms that the early church view of Jesus was as Messiah, and after his resurrection he was ‘raised to the right hand of God’ but not considered as God (1: 78). Bernard Lonergan, a Roman Catholic priest and Bible scholar, concurs that the educated Christians of the early centuries believed in a single, supreme God (119).
[emphasis mine, d.c.]

 
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Dave
(no login)
173.92.115.207

You Said It

September 1 2017, 7:07 PM 

Super colossal.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
24.151.202.16

Re: Is Jesus Just ANOTHER god?

September 2 2017, 12:00 AM 

n such a time was Christianity born. On one side were persecutions; on the other the seduction of philosophy. To remain faithful to the belief of Jesus Christ meant hardship and ridicule.

That's what Dave said: he must be Purpose Driven. Must be awesome to have an assignment from God.

Is. 66:1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
Is. 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
Is. 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog’s neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine’s blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
Is. 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil
Is. 66:5 Hear the word of the Lord, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name’s sake, said, Let the Lord be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.


John 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Those OF the WORLD are Earthy FROM the Earth: They are Aborigines into whom God has not BREATHED the SPIRIT so they become a LIVING SOUL. Those who HEAR are Lost Spirits whom Jesus was sent and sent evangelists to INVITE or ELECT. You cannot engender spiritual formation by rituals because the WILL NOT hear because they DO NOT WANT or have the POWER to hear. The Little Flock of the WAY that is called a SECT (sectarian) as fools cannot even stumbled into the WAY or ROAD or PATTERN.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

It is like a GO-NO-GO text and you cannot file and fit.

[linked image]


 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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