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ENDANGERED REVOLVERS

June 24 2015 at 11:22 PM
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JPE  (Login JPE0392)

 
PRETTY QUIET FROM NRA ON THE REVOLVER ISSUE STILL TRYING TO SHAKE IT OFF THEIR SHOE I SUSPECT.IT SEEMS EVERYONE THAT ATTENDED THE COMPETITORS MEETING AT NATIONALS DOESN'T REMEMBER ANYONE SUGGESTING DROPPING THE REVOLVER FROM THE PROGRAM,HOW CAN THAT BE WE ARE TOLD THIS HAPPENED DOES ANYONE HAVE THE MINUTES FROM THAT MEETING(JUST SAYING) SOMEONE DOESN'T LIKE REVOLVERS THATS FOR SURE BUT LETS GET TO THE BOTTOM OF IT ! IF YOU CHECK THE INFO FOR THIS YEARS NATIONALS YOU CAN ONLY SHOOT ONE GUN IN THE 1500 REVOLVER OR SEMI (DONE DEAL)AND ITS BEEN SHORTENED TO THREE DAYS,NO FIRED WORLD EVENT AND WHO KNOWS WHAT ELSE.AS INFO LEAKS OUT IT KINDA REMINDS YOU OF ANOTHER STATEMENT (LETS PASS THIS SO WE CAN SEE WHATS IN IT.) COME ON FOLKS THEY READ THIS FORUM KEEP THIS GOING STEP UP AND VOICE YOUR CONCERNS DON'T JUST SIT ON YOUR HANDS DO SOMETHING!!!! (THEY DID) JERRY EASON NRA PATRON LIFE MEMBER

 
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Tony Miller
(Login tm1955)

Re: ENDANGERED REVOLVERS

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June 25 2015, 10:29 AM 

Jerry, last year the registration for the Nationals came out and the team matches were an unfired match. There was not going to be any shooting on Thursday. Then when I picked up my registration packet the team matches were now a fired match, and on Thursday. So Mr. Hoyer's statement that contracts have been signed and it is too late to change anything is B.S!!!! They, the NRA, can and does change things at their convenience. I agree with you 100 %. If everyone doesn't get on the ball and start writing and making a big stink out of this, the NRA will win. The latest American Hunter just arrived and inside towards the back is a list of all the Board of Directors if anyone needs to look up who they are. Send a letter addressed to each and every one of the board members.

I honestly believe from attending the competitor meetings the past three years that it is 100 % the NRA trying or wanting to cut back the Nationals to three days. I don't know who Mr. Hoyer is talking to when he said he has talked to competitors and they all wanted to cut it back to three days. The complaints I hear is mainly the location and how long it takes to get there for a lot of the competitors, that is what is making the Nationals so long to go too. I for one look at it this way, now that I am there, I want to shoot everything I got to make it feel that it was worth travelling that far. Personally for me I am just 3 1/2 hours away from Albuquerque so I love where the Nationals are. But that is just me. I would travel to wherever the Nationals are held to be able to compete in what I once considered the pinnacle of PPC shooting. The way the NRA is treating the Nationals, I don't know how long I will still consider the Nationals as the pinnacle of our sport.

Hopefully everyone will make their voices heard. You are correct in that the NRA will keep silent on this hoping this goes away and we all just accept what has been pushed down our throats.

 
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Mike
(Login MKT_PPC)

Re: ENDANGERED REVOLVERS

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June 25 2015, 8:46 PM 

JPE,

As you know I lit it up last year about the team matches becoming paper matches. End result, team matches were back and there is a new rule in the rule book stating team matches at the Nationals MUST be separately fired.

I was one of the participants at last year's competitors meeting and can verify there was absolutely no discussion about phasing out the revolver over the next few years. I am not happy about this turn of events in the least.

It seems like every year for the last 4 or 5 years the folks at LEAD, or their bosses, have been trying to make BS changes, generally immediate before the Nationals. Remember, just a few years ago they tried reclassifying everyone "to make it fair for those who only shoot Stock auto" or some sort of BS reason. The impromptu competitors meeting we had at the range got ugly and Caine Robinson had to fly out from Virginia to tell the folks to restore everyone's classification.

I personally think a couple folks in the LEAD are purposely trying to kill off the PPC sport.

Mike Tangas, NRA Benefactor Life Member

 
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JB
(Login x-cop)

Endangered Revolvers

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July 2 2015, 11:25 AM 

Some more feedback from a pretty good source, I cant name-"this deal with the revolvers is far from over. Apparently Hoyer skipped a few processes and did this much on his own. We'll see what happens".
The excretion has been certainly agitated and the smell not going away soon it seems.

 
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JP
(Login JPE0392)

SHELL GAME

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July 2 2015, 1:07 PM 

JB your source may be the same as mine. Apparently some folks at NRA HQ. are not happy with what's going on either,decisions being made without HQ or board approval or knowledge. Just like the NPSC team matches last year being listed as a paper match until Mike Tangas and many others protested loudly enough to get it changed back to a fired match as it should be.Un fortunately the World Team Matches are still listed as a paper match this year and should also be a fired match.An interesting side note to all this NRA TPC info lists approved handgun for competition to be either semi auto or (REVOLVER)now everyone knows that nobody in LE is using a revolver as a duty firearm LET ALONE WANTING TO COMPETE WITH ONE RIGHT?. (JUST KEEP MOVING FOLKS NOTHING TO SEE HERE!) So lets keep those cards and letters coming in. Maybe someone will have the courage to drop the hammer after all it's almost INDEPENDANCE DAY. Jerry Eason

 
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Mike
(Login MKT_PPC)

Re: Endangered Revolvers

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July 3 2015, 1:58 AM 

Sir, If your "source" info is remotely correct I can verify that very shortly the President, 1st and 2nd Vice Presidents, the Executive Vice President and ALL of the Board of Directors of the NRA will know what is happening to our sport.

To be polite I did provide a cc copy to both Hoyer and Lipp, because I'm a nice guy.

Next I will be contacting the match sponsors in multiple states to get them in on the fun.

 
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JPE
(Login JPE0392)

MINE FIELD

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July 3 2015, 2:09 AM 

THE SUITS ARE PROBABLY OUT OF THEIR OFFICES FOR THE 4TH SO WHEN THEY RETURN NEXT WEEK THE REAL FIREWORKS SHOULD BEGIN.HAPPY INDEPENDANCE DAY YOU'LL. THANKS MIKE! JERRY

 
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Unregistered Member
(Login JIMPGOV)

Re: MINE FIELD

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July 3 2015, 10:08 PM 

FIRST I AGREE WITH ALMOST EVERYTHING MIKE AND JERRY HAVE TO SAY. NOW THAT BEING SAID.

I DO UNDERSTAND TRYING TO SHORTEN THE NATIONALS. BUT NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF LENGTHENING OR DIVERTING TO THE T.P.C.. WHICH I BELIEVE IS THE INTENT.

MY SUGGESTION IS TO HAVE ONLY 1 1500,SERVICE AND OD MATCH. YOU THE SHOOTER DECIDE WHAT GUN YOU WANT TO COMPETE WITH FOR EVERY MATCH. BE IT REVOLVER OR AUTO AND USE YOUR CLASSIFICATION FOR THAT GUN ACCORDINGLY. THAT WAY NEW SHOOTERS (PRIMARILY AUTO TRAINED) WOULD ONLY HAVE TO BUY 1 GUN TO COMPETITIVE. A 6" AUTO WITH A TRISET REAR THAT CAN BE USED FOR OPEN AND DISTINGUISHED AUTO. THEY WOULD HAVE A DUTY GUN FOR SERVICE AND AN OFF DUTY GUN. SHOTGUNS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN PROVIDED AND WOULD CONTINUE TO DO SO.

YOU CAN STILL HAVE 2 DISTINGUISHED BADGES REVOLVER AND AUTO. JUST 1 DISTINGUISHED MATCH AT THE NPSC, SHOOT WHAT YOU WANT, MAYBE ALLOW YOU TO SHOOT EACH. AND STILL HAVE THE CLASSIFICATION'S FOR ALL THE GUNS.

MY HOPE IS THAT WITH THE REDUCED COST OF NEW EQUIPMENT IT WOULD STIMULATE NEW SHOOTERS ATTENDANCE. AND BRING BACK PLENTY OF OLDER REVOLVER SHOOTERS WHO DON'T HAVE THE TIME OR MONEY (RETIRED LIKE ME,NOW ENJOYING DAY #2 OF RETIREMENT)OR DESIRE TO BUY OR SHOOT THE AUTOS.

AS IT STANDS NOW I HAVE 7 GUNS TO BRING TO THE NATIONALS. IT'S CRAZY.

JUST THINK HOW MANY OF US HAVE 5" DISTINGUISHED AUTOS SITTING AROUND DOING NOTHING. HELL,I HAVE A FULL SET OF AUTOS IN 9MM AND .45.I'M SURE PLENTY OF YOU GUYS DO TOO. REMEMBER WHEN YOU HAD TO HAVE A CORRECT LENGTH HOLSTER FOR EACH GUN AT JACKSON? I SURLY DO . BECAUSE I HAD JUST BOUGHT MY OD REVOLVER HOLSTER AT PEARL AND THAN DIDN'T NEED IT AT JACKSON. IT'S STILL SITTING IN THE BOX.

LET US DECIDE WHAT WE WANT TO SHOOT. NOT HAVE A BUREAUCRAT DECIDE FOR US.THEY'RE LIKE THE IRS. NO ONE BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE. AT LEAST WE CAN VOTE OUT A BUREAUCRAT IN POLITICS. WE HAVE NO VOICE OF REASON HERE. I DON'T THINK WE NEED DICTATORSHIP, BUT THAT'S WHAT WE'VE GOT.

JIM P
(THANK YOU COACH DITKA. I WILL SIT QUIETLY AND WAIT FOR YOUR REPLY. )

 
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Mark Wiltsey
(Login MAWilt)

Phase out revolvers or a couple of NRA people

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July 4 2015, 12:03 AM 

I am a Life Member of the NRA and have shot PPC matches all over the United States. From 1990 until 2008 I shot 20 to 30 matches per year. I was a member of the US Border Patrol Pistol Team for a number of years. I also started and was the captain of both the US INS and US CBP pistol teams. When I was shooting regularly, I was classified as a High Master with a revolver and as a Master with a semi-auto. I have a distinguished badge for both semi-auto and revolver. Since my retirement 2008 have I shot a very limited number of matches because I moved to the northern Adirondack Mountains in New York State. This year I decided that I needed to get back into PPC because it is a sport that I have loved and been very involved in for many years. Each time I drive to a match it is six hours to get there and then six hours to drive home for the closest match in New York State.
Today, I received an email saying that the NRA is going to phase out revolvers from PPC because at last year’s Nationals a few shooters suggested it to save time at the Nationals. I cannot express how disappointed I am at this news.
The blog I was reading today seems to indicate this is also being done to try to get new shooters into PPC. The only result I can see from this is to get rid of all the old PPC shooters and then you will not need to even bother to run the Nationals.
If you believe that the shooters can not commit 4 days to the Nationals and you are going to give out a separate National Champion designation for Semi-Auto and Revolver, why not run a two day Semi-Auto Championship followed by a two day Revolver Championship and find out if the shooters want to do one or the other or both. By running each as its own match you could find out how the majority of the shooters feel instead of taking a suggestion from a few from last year.
If you continue with this plan to phase out revolvers, I believe you will lose many more shooters than you gain.
I understand that if contracts have been signed for this year you may not be able to take my suggestion this year, but before this goes any further please consider what I have said and give it a try before you destroy PPC as many of us have come to love it.
I may also be able to shed some light on why attendance at the Nationals is less than it used to be. The first year of the Nationals in Albuquerque, I was standing in a line for 30 to 40 minutes after my relay was called to the line while the match officials were waiting to find out if there were any cross fires from the previous match that would need to be refired before my relay could shoot. When I spoke to the chief referee about standing in the sun for 30 to 40 minutes in the middle of the day he told me that "I had to just put up with it". By the time the decision was made that there were no refires, my relay could have already been done shooting if they had just allowed us to go to the line and shoot. The match officials could have also delayed calling my relay to the line until they were ready for us. But the biggest problem for me was that the chief referee told me "I had to just put up with it". His attitude toward me and the other shooters standing in that line is the reason I have never returned to the Nationals.
When I returned to PPC this year it was in hopes that I could get enough practice and matches to get me back in shape to compete at Regional matches next year and possibly give the Nationals another try. This info about phasing out revolvers makes me wonder how long I will be a PPC shooter. It also makes me think that going back to the Nationals may not be something that I want to do as my old friends may not be there.

Maybe instead of phasing out revolvers we should phase out a couple of NRA people. Any suggestion as to who that could be?

 
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JPE
(Login JPE0392)

Re: Phase out revolvers or a couple of NRA people

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July 4 2015, 1:54 AM 

MARK DON'T GIVE UP THE SITUATION IS BEING WORKED ON.PLEASE FORWARD YOUR POSTING TO NRA HQ LE DIVISION YOU HAVE MANY VALID POINTS AND NRA NEEDS TO HEAR FROM YOU TOO! THANKS EOR TAKING THE TIME TO POST YOUR CONCERNS.JERRY EASON

 
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Mark Wiltsey
(Login MAWilt)

Re: Phase out revolvers or a couple of NRA people

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July 4 2015, 7:21 AM 

Jerry,

I am not giving up. I have forwarded a message to NRA. I have also asked every PPC shooter in New York State to send a message to the NRA Law Enforcement Div. To all my friends in PPC, I am also asking you to get in the fight to save PPC as we know it. This is not the time to sit back and see how this comes out.

Mark

 
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Unregistered Member
(Login JPE0392)

keep it coming

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July 6 2015, 4:45 PM 

OK ROBERT BUTLER WHAT IS YOU'RE TAKE ON ALL THIS? KEEP THOSE LETTERS FLOWING HQ SHOULD BE A LITTLE CONCERNED TODAY AS THEY OPEN THEIR MAIL AND EMAIL LETS HOPE SOMETHING GETS DONE. IF ANYONE ELSE WOULD LIKE TO WRITE AND INQUIRE WHY PPC POSTAL RESULTS HAVEN'T BEEN UPDATED SINCE 2011 PLEASE DO I SENT MINE FRIDAY 2/3/15 JUST ANOTHER THING UNIMPORTANT IT WOULD SEEM TO LE COMPETITIONS DIVISION I'M BEGINNING TO WONDER IF MY RECENT UPGRADE TO PATRON LIFE MEMBER WAS A GOOD IDEA. JPE
'

 
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Unregistered Member
(Login BradJH)

Re: keep it coming

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July 8 2015, 5:35 PM 

I'm shooting up north, CPCA, AKA Canada. We obviously follow NRA's lead, and I've been a long time NRA member.

I can only echo what has been written here. I travel to a match to shoot as much as I can. Duplicating all of the matches for a wheel gun and auto separate event can be a lot of work, and administratively burdensome (sp?).

IF and that's a big IF there has to be some shortening of events and/or time, hold the match and let the competitor decide which gun. One classification card needed.

And again I say that with the caveat of: I would prefer everything stays and we shoot a lot of bullets down range. This is just one guy's opinion, and not the voice of any other organization.

P.S. Howdy Mike T! Keep up the good work.

 
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Mike
(Login MKT_PPC)

Re: keep it coming

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July 9 2015, 11:38 AM 

Thanks Brad.

For everyone, I took a look at the so called survey the Competitions crew sent out, haven't answered a question but did grab screen shots of each page. If you haven't looked at, or taken this survey what they are asking in the survey is to choose between two bad options.

One example is the question whether you would rather:

Eliminate all revolver matches now

or

Combine Semi-auto and Revolver matches until the phase out is complete

There is also only one small block to voice your comments but it is on the very first page of the survey before you've have had a chance to read through. A very Socialist survey indeed.


 
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JPE
(Login JPE0392)

Re: keep it coming

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July 12 2015, 8:02 PM 

STAY ON IT !

 
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JPE
(Login JPE0392)

Re: ENDANGERED REVOLVERS

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July 12 2015, 8:06 PM 

LETTERS TO TOP BRASS WILL BE SEEN MONDAY JULY 13 LETS SEE WHAT TURNS UP. JPE

 
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Bob
(Login REB55)

NPSC SURVEY

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July 20 2015, 5:42 PM 

Yes, that was a great survey. Reminded me of the MMPI psychological test you had to take to see if you should be a cop.
Would you rather A. Stand in an erupting volcano
B. Be trapped on a frozen lake
C. Render aid at the scene of a personal injury auto accident
D. Read a good book
I answered a few of the questions but none that I HAD to choose what gun to shoot.And I wrote no tactical match on everything else. Maybe they wil get the idea. We will see, Bob

 
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Mike
(Login MKT_PPC)

the ship is turning

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August 4 2015, 12:00 PM 

All, the NRA has replaced Hoyer's letter from June 17th with the following:

To: All National Police Shooting Championship Competitors and Supporters

The 2015 National Police Shooting Championships are quickly coming up and we are excited to
see everyone in New Mexico. The 2015 championships will have some changes in st
ructure with the intent of increasing participation and increasing the overall experience. These changes are based on competitor feedback, NRA Staff input and the NRA Law Enforcement Committees oversight.

The initial changes created several legitimate concerns from competitors and Chairman Bill Allen, NRA Law Enforcement staff and Kyle Weaver, NRA Executive Director of General Operations have reviewed those concerns and have made the following amendments.

INDIVIDUAL MATCHES:
The Open Class Division Semi-Automatic Pistol Championship (Match), commonly called the “1500 Auto Match” and The Open Class Division Revolver Championship (Match), commonly called the “1500 Revolver Match” will now be referred to as the “Open Class Division Championship”The Open Class Division Championship will be the “1500 Match” with the competitor deciding to shoot either a revolver or semi-auto handgun.

There will be no phasing out period or discussion of phasing out revolvers. This is the structure
of the 1500 match moving forward.

The Stock Service Semi-Automatic Pistol Match, commonly called “Stock Auto Match” and The Stock Service Revolver Match, commonly called the “Service Revolver Match” will be referred to as the “Stock Service Duty Gun Championship”

The Stock Service Duty Gun championship will be shot with either a stock auto or service revolver, choice of the competitor.

There will be no phasing out period or discussion of phasing out revolvers. This is the structure
of the Stock Service Duty Gun moving forward.

The Production Semi-Automatic Pistol Championship (Match), will be the same as last year.

The Off Duty Sidearm Championship, commonly called the ‘Off Duty Match” will continue with same structure as in the previous eight years; competitors choose whether to fire a revolver or a semi-auto pistol, either one, but not both.

Distinguished Semi-Automatic Pistol & Distinguished Revolver Championship (Match), commonly called the “Distinguished Matches

Competitors may fire in BOTH the Distinguished Semi-Automatic Pistol and Distinguished Revolver Matches, as previously.

TEAM MATCHES:

The Open Class Division Four & Two Officer Team Championships (Match) commonly called the 1500 Team Matches. Team Captains need to decide if their team will fire the Open Class Semi-Automatic Pistol Team
Championship (Match) or the Open Class Revolver Team Championship (Match) with all members firing the same firearm type and registering for the appropriate Four or Two Officer Team Match.

The Stock Service Semi-Automatic Pistol Four & Two Officer Team Team Captains need to sign their members up for either the Four or Two Officer Stock Service Semi-Automatic Pistol Team Championship (Match). Competitors may not fire in more than one Relay or Match.

The Production Semi-Automatic Pistol Division Four & Two Officer Team Championships (Match), this is a recently added event and most are calling it “Production Team Match”. Team Captains need to sign their members up for either the Four or Two Officer Production Pistol Team Championship(Match). Competitors may not fire in more than one Relay or Match.

We appreciate all the feedback received and have made adjustments to correct the 2015 structural changes. The goal of all involved is increase participation, attract new shooters and industry partners and overall improve the championships. With change, there are always some disagreements. We will continue to work on the structure, pursue feedback from all of the competitors and make adjustments that are best for the competitors as a whole and the NRA NPSC.

Thank you for all your support and concerns and we look forward to a great championship.

Best Regards,
William Allen, Chairman NRA Law Enforcement Committee
R. Kyle Weaver, NRA Executive Director, General Operations
NRA Law Enforcement Committee
NRA Law Enforcement Staff

_________________________________________________________________________

It isn't all we wanted but it is a start. A thanks to everyone that has written a letter already, every bit helps. To those who haven't written, now is the time to start hitting for the bleachers and trying to get the rest of the changes made.

 
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Jim Chapman
(Login jamesrchapman)

Re: the ship is turning

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August 5 2015, 9:16 PM 

Well, Well!

Must have been a loud voice from the masses.

 
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