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Case Filling - does it affect accuracy

December 14 2016 at 4:16 PM
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Unregistered Member  (Login Irish-PPC)

 
Hi Again

I've just got a ransom rest so will be testing soon but a query for the experts.

I've heard lots of varying opinions on the effects of case filling and the impact on 38 wadcutter load accuracy. Most of the powders I use for 38's are really low volume (titegroup/N310) but in your experience do you think there is an impact?

Thanks in advance

 
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Maik
(Login mopper72)

Re: Case Filling - does it affect accuracy

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December 16 2016, 12:55 AM 

Hi

Yes!
I have used 3,0grs N310 with 125grs H&N WC for many years, now I use 3,4grs N32C TinStar, nearly 100% filling volume.
Very precise, clean and nearly no speed oscillation

Try it

 
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Jim C
(Login jamesrchapman)

Re: Case Filling - does it affect accuracy

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December 16 2016, 8:25 PM 

Well, I'm stating no, it will not have a noticeable effect on accuracy in a 1900 era cartridge like the .38 special, especially with capacity filling hbwc's.

the evidence is some of the most substantial on record.

Bullseye, ww231, WST, titegroup, N310

they all have shot record scores.

Jim

 
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Tony
(Login tonyk1960)

Case Filling - does it affect accuracy

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December 17 2016, 3:07 AM 

I would have to agree with you Jim. Over countless years and even more 1000's of rounds through a 38spl at target velocities, ISSF and PPC I have found no discernible velocity spread with the light quick powders. I would add 452AA to that list also until it was discontinued. Using Bullseye through my mod 14 and 2.1gr loads I can consistently get under a 3fps spread over 12 round test. I have tested the bulk fill powders and find them very pressure spike sensitive when getting to capacity. I'll stick with Bullseye, WST and N310.

cheers

 
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Unregistered Member
(Login Irish-PPC)

Re: Case Filling - does it affect accuracy

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December 17 2016, 2:45 PM 

Thanks guys, I'm still learning as I'm a fairly new ppc shooter and have found h&n HBWC heads with N310 very accurate, although will need to ransom rest them.

The lead shoot nicely although they are a bit dirty but the 125g copper coated waddcutters seem to be the preference in mainland europe with the australians using swc heads recessed into the case and I just wonder what the benefit of each is.

I'm the only club member bar one shooting lead with the rest using the copper plated.


 
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JB
(Login x-cop)

Case filing

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December 17 2016, 4:15 PM 

On the question of case filing and unused space. There have been many discussions and opinions about filling unused space in certain cases, the .38 special and .357 case, straight wall cases as such. Vihtavuori Manual warns that "when using a large amount of free space the shooting characteristics can vary widely depending on the location of the powder.In some cases can actually double the pressure. Can effect velocity changes between first and following shots. Recoil can reposition the powder in the case having the same effect. Powder position can be altered just by position of the muzzle direction and movement of the gun. The shot to shot deviation in velocity and pressure are normally increased when using a load that leaves the cases half empty, there fore not recommended for target loads"
The risk of under load detonation becomes a risk, especially when using loads with any of the smokeless powders and can generate a burn of a shock wave to detonate instead of a normal burn of the powder that could cause damage to gun or injury to shooter. T
This theory has been around for some time and there are many arguments pro and con about this. Some call it flash over. If it is true it can definitely effect velocity/pressure and in turn accuracy.


 
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Tony
(Login tonyk1960)

Case filling

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December 17 2016, 5:47 PM 

Have to agree with you Jim, I can remember when people ran away from Bullseye in droves due to reports of detonation with small charge loads and it flashing across the top of the charge therefore not "burning" as such. So 30 years or so on, we're still using Bullseye and still the same charge weights, I haven't heard of a gun blowing up in oooohhh how long?? There definitely is a difference in velocity spread from first shot to subsequent shots, all due to powder placement. I have tested countless rounds fired over a chrono with load loaded in the horizontal position in relation to rounds loaded in the vertical position against first shot vertical to subsequent horizontal shots. Yes, less air space is good for consistent velocities with small powder weights, the bulkier the powder negates the issue. Just a personal powder preference, adapt and overcome....

Irish-PPC, I am one of those australians using the rounds in question. 38spl case with 2.1g of Bullseye and a 100g SWC sunk 3mm down in the case is my fave. I am getting fantastic accuracy out to 50yds with minimal recoil, as with this discussion thread I find that I get no unburnt powder and the velocities are extremely consistent.

 
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JB
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Case filling

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December 17 2016, 6:17 PM 

Tony,
Now you have my attention. You say 2.1 BE. with a 100 grain SWC and getting fantastic accuracy out to 50yards.
1. Is this a cast boolit or swaged?
2. What is the actual oal of loaded round?
3 Roll crimp or taper crimp
4. What kind of groups are you getting, center to center?
5. Getting any tipping?
6. Any idea of velocity?
7. What kind of brass?
8. What primer?
7. Shot from machine rest,bench rest?

 
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Tony
(Login tonyk1960)

Case filling etc

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December 17 2016, 7:44 PM 


JB, details are as...


1. Is this a cast boolit or swaged? - swaged and powder coated

2. What is the actual oal of loaded round? - 1/8th" below case mouth on a 38spl case.

3 Roll crimp or taper crimp - Taper of course, doesn't work harden the case as much. Makes for easier loading during fast runs.

4. What kind of groups are you getting, centre to centre? - If I could load a picture I would. Up and down around the 1 1/2" side to side less than 3/4". we're more interested in the side to side as that is a true capture of the group size. we've both been around long enough to know that there are too many variables to accurately give an up/down group. Try the link below for photo.

5. Getting any tipping? - None

6. Any idea of velocity? - including SD and MAD
662.9
666.7
661.1
660.3
678.3
665.9
665.9

6.6 - SD

5.3 - MAD


7. What kind of brass? - Win is the only brass that will fit in my gun, PMC too thick in the case wall, haven't tried Starline.

8. What primer? - Fed 100's of course

7. Shot from machine rest,bench rest? - ransom rest, takes the idiot factor out of the equation.

[URL=http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/jj561/tonykent1960/Photo0434_zpsgy1kbe1c.jpg" alt="[linked image]">[/IMG][/URL]

 
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JB
(Login x-cop)

Case filling

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December 17 2016, 9:43 PM 

Very interesting feedback.
Congrats on your success. I am really surprised getting that kind of grouping out at 50 with that light of boolit and light loading.
More questions,
What brand of boolit and where did you get them? Not aware of any swaged 100 grainers in states.
This being a semi wadcutter, I assume you mean shoulder of boolit 1/8" below case mouth?
What is your make of PPC gun? What twist in bbl? Bore diameter? Why is it only Winchester brass will work in it???

You are correct in concentrating on windage dispersion as opposed to elevation for grouping.
You pic showed up and that is impressive grouping. Is this consistant? Have you tried 24 rounds for a group considering this is what you will shoot from 50 yards? Considering factory advertised velocity for 149 grain full wadcutters is 702-720 this is surprising to me.
I could never get a taper crimp to give me same accuracy of a light roll crimp. What brand die are you using? What is the diameter of these bullits?
Thanks
JB

 
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Tony
(Login tonyk1960)

case filling etc

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December 18 2016, 12:01 AM 

Thanks JB, lead you up the garden path sorry, they are cast bullets, not swaged.

An old friend of mine makes them down in Adelaide, Sth Australia - Spartan http://spartanprojectiles.boxhost.me/index.html) they are 357 diam.

No, the top of the projectile is 1/8th below, fills a lot of airspace up. Probably why only Win cases will fit, a lot thinner walls on the brass than other manufacturers.

Gun is a S&W mod 14 with an Apex barrel 1-8 twist .355. I have had the gun for some 15 years now, built by a friend of mine who has built more than he would like to admit. The cylinder has nice tight chambers (and one not so) which works well.

I normally shoot 24 shot groups and are comparable to what you saw, I couldn't find one to show but have always said to myself that one cylinderful at a time in 4 different positions is the match.

Crimp die is an old RCBS that I have had for 20 plus years now.

cheers

 
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JB
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Case filling

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December 18 2016, 10:38 AM 

Toney,
Interesting feedback. You "may" have hit on something with your technique and unorthodox load(as opposed to the norm).Always interested in others ideas, can always learn something.
Normally don't get the consistent boolits with "cast" products, so your friend's product must be good quality control and consistency.
1:8 twist bbl not common here at all. Of course Apex not available here any longer that I am aware of. 1:14 or 1:12 being the desired twist for the 148 grain wads. Swaged of course. The only decent cast .38 boolit I ever got good results from was from an old vintage H&G 6 cavity 148 wadcutter mold that was well seasoned and broke in. Used linotype and wheel weights combined and alox lube that gave me very consistent rounds. Don't cast anymore. Had to kick up the load to get any decent grouping with it.
Right now the most accurate boolit has been the Remington 148 grain wadcutter, that for some reason or another dried up. Never fails.
Surprised you don't have any reload hang-up's with the boolit down in the case, with no lead in or roll crimp to keep from possibly hanging up on the cyl edge.
Here is my contact in case you want to e mail me or need any help with holsters
jbcustom-leather@att.net
Again thanks for feedback.
JB

 
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Unregistered Member
(Login Irish-PPC)

Re: Case filling

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December 18 2016, 5:57 PM 

Its all really interesting guys. I was wondering as well in terms of crimp do you find a difference with crimp and hbwc rounds? I'd been advised just to straighten the bell and use a very light taper crimp. What are your thoughts?

 
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Tony
(Login tonyk1960)

Case filling etc

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December 19 2016, 1:01 AM 

JB, I managed to take a snap of a loaded case and the projectile. Pity about the quality of the image, bit like me fuzzy.

[linked image].html?o=0

I believe the projectile is an old H&G design, as a lot of the good ones are. I do like a HBWC but trying to find decent quality swaged pills is getting harder. And at an affordable price.

The taper crimp aids in directing them into the cylinder, and with practice I don't even think twice these days.

Irish-PPC - Pretty much all you want to do is to put enough pressure on the pill so it doesn't move forward. Due to the softness of the lead it is easily deformed and made undersized. I have posted here before that I had a belling die made up at 357 and the same length as the HBWC so the HBWC's would slide in without causing the skirt to be crushed as most dies are made at 355 and short. Always a taper crimp in my books, but personal preference.

Glad for the chat guys, keep it up


 
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Tony
(Login tonyk1960)

Case filling etc

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December 19 2016, 5:41 AM 

Better luck this time...

[linked image].html?o=0

 
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Tony
(Login tonyk1960)

Case filling etcg

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December 19 2016, 5:44 AM 

[URL=http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/jj561/tonykent1960/Photo0436_zpsfo1ncx3l.jpg" alt="[linked image]">[/IMG][/URL]

 
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JB
(Login x-cop)

Case filling

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December 19 2016, 12:15 PM 

Tony,
Thanks for pic, interesting to say the least, but the results are what counts. If I can get my hands on some of these, have to give it a try. With the head down that far in the case definitely takes up air space, and with the light charge wouldn't be too concerned about a pressure problem. Apparently you have shot quite a few with no problems. Also, bullet jump from cyl. to bbl no real negative problem either according to your groups. What about wind effect, any experience along this line when testing?
I have seen some vintage H&G molds on the E-Bay sight in past. Those were prob some of the best boolit molds made my opinion.

 
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Unregistered Member
(Login jamesrchapman)

Re: Case filling

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December 20 2016, 8:46 PM 

JB, I'm following this thread with interest also!!

 
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Roly
(Login CanadaPPC)

100 gr SWC

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December 20 2016, 11:11 PM 

I first tried these 100 gr pills while competing at the 2011 World PPC champs in Sweden. The Aussie shooters were using them on the line beside me. At first I thought they were shooting .22s! They gave me 200-300 to bring home and test. I was impressed. No smoke. No recoil. No dirty hands, and incredibly accurate out to 50 yards with a power factor of only 70. Unfortunately no bullet manufacturer in North America makes them. That was until this year! I personally purchased the bullet moulds and have partnered up with a Canadian bullet maker who also offers the HI-Tek bullet coating. The first batch should be ready early January. They are a dream to shoot!

Regards
Roly

 
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Tony
(Login tonyk1960)

100SWC

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December 21 2016, 2:03 AM 

Well done Roly, you're onto a winner. They are a beautiful round to shoot and as you say accurate out to 50.

cheers

Tony

 
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