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January 11 2003 at 12:32 PM
Jeff Kennedy  (no login)

Hello All,

Just wanted some expert opinion on the grading company issue. I have acquired a pretty nice collection of PSA graded cards but after speaking with other collectors (via chat) I have discovered that their is a deep appreciation for SGC graded cards. I myself like the SGC graded cards with the deep black borders surrounding the cards. When I started my collection, I was under the impression that PSA was the top of the line and that cards graded by PSA would sell for premiums in the future. Any thoughts on this topic are greatly appreciated. Although I do have a nice collection started with the PSA grades, it is still early in my T206 quest to convert over if need be. Thanks for your input on this matter.

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(Login Bigb13)

Re: PSA OR SGC?????

January 11 2003, 12:46 PM 

Hi Jeff one thing you should know and I think everybody here will agree with me on this is that if you send your cards to SGC you WILL get lower grades. That you can be sure of. SGC is really tough on old cards and in a way that is good. Why would you want to spend money on a high grade PSA when in fact the card probably is not as high as PSA grade it at. Like a lot of people here say but the card and not the holder. I have SGC cards that are vgex to ex and if I would send them to PSA I could get at least a 7. But as time goes on more people will realize that SGC is the better grader and the prices of slabed PSA cards will come way down. Just my opinion. Rob {Bigb13}


(Login quannimir)

Re: Re: PSA OR SGC?????

January 11 2003, 1:05 PM 

I'm the new guy around here (and in the hobby) but I've been more disappointed with SGC cards than PSA concerning overgrading. Maybe that's just my luck but whenever possible I do try to buy SGC over PSA because for now they are more of a bargain. In the end support the company you like and collect what you love and it shouldn't matter.

(no login)

Re: Re: PSA OR SGC?????

January 11 2003, 1:08 PM 

For purposes of having a more uniform collection, I also considerred converting many of my PSA cards to SGC cards, and I have noticed the exact problem that Robert has pointed out. Cards sent to SGC under their "crossover" deal have not worked out favorably for me. If I do not write a minimum grade for cards, SGC usually lowers the grades. (In my opinion, this is suicide if I ever plan to resell cards, because the values of the higher number, regardless of SGC or PSA, almost invariably gets more money.) If I do write a minimum grade on my submission form, SGC sends my PSA grades back in the PSA holder because SGC's minimum standard for that grade is not met.

Lee Behrens
(no login)


January 11 2003, 2:16 PM 

I personally send all my cards to be graded to SGC. i have been happy with the results. You always get some you fell are undergraded and some that receive better grades than expected. They have been too many questions to the quality of grading by PSA brought up by this board that have gone unanswered.

I also like the look of the cards in the holders. At the current time I am able to buy SGC cards cheaper than some raw cards of the same condition.

I believe in the long run that SGC cards will be in a better position that PSA, because of the turn over of graders and there past history of dealer network preferential treatment. In the vintage card grading for SGC only Derek grades them. i like this continuity and I believe the market will eventually pick up on this fact. Plus there customer service is great.

Julie Vognar
(Login rvognarattbi)

I've had so many (at leasst 10--I don't go looking for graded cards)

January 11 2003, 3:13 PM 

didsappointments with PSA graded cards, that I'm inclined to say nothing coming out of a PSA holder would surprise me. So It shouldn't have surprised me when I won PSA 5 and SGC 60 common T202s, and the PSA 5 was a much nicer card. Smooth, well-cut, no "card ick,"--like i said, nothing coming out of aPSA holder would surprise me. They're inconsistant.


(Premier Login leonl)
Network 54 Moderator

my take

January 11 2003, 3:52 PM 

ALWAYS BUT ALWAYS buy the card and NOT the holder, regardless of who's slab it's the long run I do think that SGC pricing/value will hold up better AND they do grade harder, at least on older cards, and are more consistent than anyone else....again, and it can not be over emphasized, ALWAYS BUY THE CARD and don't look at the holder so much....regards all..

(no login)

Re: my take

January 11 2003, 4:07 PM 

I love SGC....the black holder, the service, the consistency. That said, how can everyone be so confident that the value of SGC cards will hold better over time? That certainly is not the case at present. Whenever you have two cards of same grade and same quality go head to head, the SGC card usually ends up with the smaller price. Just look at the end prices on will see this applies to pre-war, post-war, etc. In the long run, who knows? But at this time, if the intention of grading is for resale, PSA may be the way to go.

(no login)

I can't agree

January 11 2003, 6:36 PM 


I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but sales for SGC-graded cards, particularly vintage issues, are continually gaining strength. In fact, for nearly every 19th century issue, most E-card issues and many T-card series, SGC graded examples outsell their PSA counterparts. Of course, that assumes that PSA can even get the right card in the proper holder and satisfactorily identify the card they are grading. That's consistently been a problem with PSA over the past year -- PSA has clearly been unable to replace its two top graders who left the company just over a year ago. The question I have is how can a company determine whether a card should even belong in a holder if they don't know what it is? To me, this is pretty elementary.

The examples of strong SGC prices (greater than either PSA sales or the SMR values) are many. Here is what I've documented:

(no login)

My biggest concern...

January 11 2003, 6:46 PM 

is purchasing PSA graded cards, especially those valued in excess of $1,000 and getting something that is altered or trimmed.

A recent example with the "new" PSA label:


(Login Bigb13)

Re: My biggest concern...

January 11 2003, 9:06 PM 

I think 12 Grand is a bit much to pay for a trimmed card. Rob

(no login)


January 11 2003, 9:19 PM's a T206 Wagner

jay behrens
(no login)

Re: Unless

January 11 2003, 9:22 PM 


Albie O'Hanian
(no login)

re: I can't agree

January 12 2003, 12:12 AM 

Jeff-Collect what you like. Clearly, in this room people prefer SGC and they back up their preference with sound reasons. However, I am not so certain the rest of the collecting world feels the same way. Other than BMW how many major dealers carry and prefer to sell SGC cards over PSA? How many major auction houses prefer SGC?
BTW-Impressive list of sell prices you have there MW. Are they all sell prices-or are they asking prices?

(no login)

Answers...and more questions

January 12 2003, 1:21 AM 

<< Other than BMW how many major dealers carry and prefer to sell SGC cards over PSA? How many major auction houses prefer SGC? >>

Albie, I'm not sure what your point is. If one took a look on eBay at the pre-1930 Graded Baseball Singles category, might they not conclude that AAA and NASA are the hottest companies in the hobby? I remember this argument on the old chatboard. Just because one company has a greater marketshare or more exposure does not mean that it offers a better product.

<< BTW-Impressive list of sell prices you have there MW. Are they all sell prices-or are they asking prices? >>

They are all sales prices. Also, many are recorded from direct eBay auction sales. If you take a close look at sales of vintage PSA-graded cards during the last year you will find that many PSA 7s, 8s and 9s are only selling for a fraction (75% or less) of the catalog price (SMR). And this is even AFTER many of the prices were adjusted downward by their so-called pricing experts. During the same time period, SGC prices have increased.

Albie, if you are really interested in collecting and promoting PSA cards, I think that's great. I'm sure you could have asked these same questions on the Collector's Universe forum and all of your friends would have been agreeing with you and patting you on the back. On the network54 forum, however, we are more grounded in reality.

BTW, thank you for the 1956 Topps football set at the November Toronto Expo.

Lee Behrens
(no login)

Backing Up PSA

January 12 2003, 2:42 AM 

As long as I have been watching this board Mike has came up with valid points as to why PSA has problems and have yet to hear from anyone to back up PSA or explain why these things happen. The most disturbing thing about PSA to me is there dealer network preferential treatment on grading, which by NO stretch of the imagination is true grading, just putting money into the hands of the people in the dealer network and the people getting hurt are the collectors that by these overgraded cards. I personally can not support a company like this.
If the PSA thing is so good why aren't there people out there defending them? I know the majority of the posters prefer SGC, but there has to be more PSA supporters. Other than the fact that they seem to sell for higher prices, why use there services or buy there cards?

B C Daniels
(no login)

How about lazer exstracted????

January 12 2003, 3:37 AM 

or one on a sheet??

(no login)


January 12 2003, 3:41 AM 

Lee --

You bring up a very important point. Many of the members of this vintage forum collect for the enjoyment of it. They are not as concerned with "resale" value as many PSA collectors. Absent the argument that "PSA sells for the most" (which I don't even think is true), what argument is there to defend PSA? Do they grade more accurately? Do they have more attractive or better fitting holders? Have they historically offered better service? Are PSA's grades consistent from one week to the next? Do they have a good working knowledge of vintage baseball cards? Are they impartial to every submitter?

Like you, I would like to see a PSA supporter answer those questions that have the MOST relevance to this vintage forum.

(no login)

Why the comparison

January 12 2003, 8:37 AM 

I have always been curious why there has been the comparison of grade degrees (e.i. SGC X = PSA X) between the two companies in the hobby circles. More specifically, you very often see the comments either in the title of a card on ebay or in the body of the writeup (e.g. SGC 7 = PSA 6) the SGC will have its dual-equivalent grade (e.g 7.5, 7) and then there will be a comment about ("this = a PSA 6"). I'm sure I've seen this 100 times. I don't understand why it is done and seems to be contrary to my and others experiences on this board (as far as SGC grades being slightly lower than PSAs)? I wonder if the "average" collector views SGC as an "easier" grader when in reality they are more thorough and tougher. Any thoughts? PSA still (to the masses) semms to carry its image as the "Card grading 800 lb. gorilla" that it established years ago. But SGC is obviously bulking up to compete for their market position (especially in vintage cards).


Jeff McKee
(no login)

Re: PSA OR SGC?????

January 12 2003, 9:17 AM 

Hi Jeff,
I have both PSA and SGC graded cards.All of the PSA graded cards I bought on ebay.Most of the SGC graded cards I have,I sent to be graded by SGC.My reasons for sending my cards to SGC at first was that I liked the holders better,also they have better prices for the turnaround time.I also like there web site more as it offers you more options without buying anything.But after comparing both of the companys grades on the same cards I would say that SGC is the tougher and more consistent company.In closing if I were to have my cards graded that is where (SGC)I would send mine,but this is only my opinion.

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