This is the "Rodney Dangerfield" set of vintage card collecting.....
that is, "it doesn't get much respect". On this current Forum54 page
two posters have initiated topics regarding this set and there has not
been much of a follow-up. This has also been true of past postings on
Well, I will tell you I have a lot of RESPECT for this set, as it took me
quite a few years to complete it. Fortunately, I did it when it was still
affordable. My 1st E90-1 card was the really tough Mike Mitchell, since
in an early '80s BB card Mag. it was listed as a "must buy" rare card.
So, being a set collector, once I acquired it, I thought the remaining
119 cards would be "easy". Boy, was I in for a rude awakening.
The backs of these Caramel cards advertised 100 Subjects and this was
likely the intended original design. But, the American Caramel Co. kept
adding cards of players due to trades during 1909 - 1911. In fact the
2nd Cy Young (pitching pose) card reflects his trade to Cleveland.
Two cards were issued of Fred Clarke....the 1st erroneously depicted
him with Philadelphia; then, they corrected this by issuing a 2nd card
of him with Pittsburg. And, the list of additional cards goes on and on.
Anyhow, I don't claim to be an expert on this set, but I would be curious
to see how many members on this Forum have completed this set ?
Come on let's talk it up...."this is the kind of stuff that (BB card) dreams
are made of"....Trivia....what movie is that quote from ?
This message has been edited by tedzan on Mar 27, 2006 5:37 AM This message has been edited by tedzan on Mar 27, 2006 5:24 AM
I used to collect this set a long time ago. It was really cheap in the 80's. For some reason or other people didn't like the caramel sets too much back then. That's one reason I started to pick them up because they could be had for a song. I got through about 40 - 50 different cards and then got interested in other things. I ended up trading most of them within the last 10 years or so. I only kept a few of the cards. They truly are a nice set to collect. The poses and colors make them attractive. The nice challenge about this set is that it has over 100 cards with a lot of great players. I guess the amount of players and distribution (relative to T206) makes this set kind of tough to finish but it is a goal that can be reached (unless you need Jackson and Mitchell, then it might be a little expensive and/or tough).
I had complete set minus Jackson, but with 2 Mitchells - one very nice(PSA 5). Many cards were trimmed. Now I just have the Boston cards all graded in the 3 to 5 range. Sometime will get the ones that are not in SGC holders crossed over. I am back from Honduras and will email you about 49 Leafs.
Looking back at what I collected in the 80s, probably my only regret was not paying more attention to caramel cards, this set in particular. I was always on the lookout for a Jax, but could never find one at a price I liked.
WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.
Two Mike Mitchell cards, now that is really amazing. Besides the
one in my set, I have only seen one more in the past 24 years.
This card, with its bright Yellow background, sparks a certain
"mystique" in my imagination very similar to when I see a real
T206 Wagner or Plank or Magie....or a 1934 LaJoie....or even
a 1952 Topps Mantle or 1954 Bowman Ted Williams.
It was Bogey.
The E90-1 set is not as hot as the other caramel card sets right now with the exception of the very scarce cards in the set and the horizontals. There are actually cards like David Shean which are almost impossible to find and yet no one ever acknowledges it in a publication or post. I put the set together (minus Joe Jax) card by card so I know how tough Upp, Shean, Walsh, etc really are. One of these days the set will come back in to fashion, it is always a matter of time. Look how long it took the T207 and M116 sets to start taking off...
In the last scene in the Maltese Falcon are Bogart, Mary Astor, Barton
McLane, and Ward Bond (the two Detectives). Ward Bond asks Bogey about
the statue and Bogey tells him....."it is the stuff that dreams are made of".
Barry....did you know that this is Sidney Greenstreet's "rookie" movie ?
OK, down to business.....I will not argue with those that argue that the
Breisch-Williams set is tougher than the E90-1. However, since the E107
cards were produced before such greats as Cobb, Jackson, and Johnson, it
doesn't get much respect as it probably deserves. There is no doubt, and a
proven fact, that certain stars (and the more of them) make for a given BB
card set's popularity. Nevertheless, with 158 cards in it (including Matty and
Wagner), the E107 set is certainly a challenging set to complete.
I chose to collect the E90-1 cards because they were colorful, they included
all the major stars of that era, and I had a headstart with the rare cards in
There is no comparison when it comes to scarcity between the 2 sets. I am confident that each individual player in the E107 set is more rare than the E90-1 Mitchel. I personally don't believe that the Mitchel is that rare. It is certainly more rare than the other cards in the set, but it is not impossible to find. The internet has changed my opinion of the scarcity of that card. If you were traveling to card shows in the 80's looking to find one, odds are you would probably come up short. But in today's market, there is a Mitchel available in almost every major auction.
The fact that the E107 set is less collected has nothing to do with lack of respect for the issue. To the contrary, I would guess that most collectors have a tremendous amount of respect for this set. It is not as popular among collectors because the cards are so scarce, and the prices have climbed to levels beyond the budgets of many collectors. Putting together a set of E107's would be an astonishing accomplishment, and one that has never been done to the best of my knowledge.
Hey guys....I started this out as an "upbeat" Thread on what in my
opinion is an "unheralded" set....E90-1. And, was hoping to generate
some interesting experiences by Forum members' in collecting these
cards. After all, it is a major BB card set.
Instead, we are starting to de-generate into a "this vs that" conver-
sation. Hey, we all fully appreciate the difficulty in acquiring a near set,
or perhaps even all 158 cards to complete the E107 set. And, that would
certainly make for a extremely interesting Thread on its own.
But, where did I, initially, try to compare these two sets ? NO WHERE !
Continuing, so far Peter Thomas, Bob Marquette, and I have put to-
gether the E90-1 set (119 or 120 cards). And, several guys have col-
lected approx. 1/2 the set. That's fine, and it would be interesting to
get more inputs on these cards.
As an originator of the "How many Mitchell's are out there" thread, I'm glad you got some responce to this one (I got 3 -- thanks, Jay, Bob S., and again, Ted -- ). I was almost ready to take my Duffy, go home, and cry myself to sleep .....
Other than my interest (obsession) with this GREAT set, is my quandry on why it is hardly discussed. A beautiful set, caramels are hot, not too large, HOFs, rarities ... all adds up to a popular discussion topic. But mention it, and you get the ssssssssssssshhhh.
From reading some of the post, both on the lines and inbtween the lines, along with my own opinion, I think this set has too many secrets:
Not a big T206er, but I can name big five and come close to 6-10.
T207 Loudermilk, e102 Miller fielding, t205 Hobby, etc. etc. And most casual hobbyists can come up with e90 Mitchell, Speaker, Sweeney, Graham, etc.
But, as memtioned, not that many know that "Shean" is a killer, and maybe it's best to keep it that way. I mentioned that Upp was the last "common" I need in a tread, and the next thing I know I have two guys from the Sapprano's knocking at my door ....
This all may sound negative and paranoid, but it isn't ... heck next time a Dougherty come up for auction, I'll be deaf, dumd, and blind too.
I also think this is a perfect example of a set that had it's run in the 80-90's and is taking some time off to other sets, and will have a comeback in the (near) future.
Sorry, got to go, just got a call from a "Mr. Dougherty."
One card which wasn't that difficult for me (I guess I was very lucky) was the McLean card. I have seen astonishing bids on it whenever it pops up on ebay. The Speaker is also tough and I have only seen a couple in vg-ex or better in the last 5 or 6 years for sale. It usually is an SGC 10 or PSA 1 when you find one.
My last card to find was the Shean, I would be curious to see which was the last card for the rest of you.
Thanks for showing the Mitchell card. And, congrats on acquiring the
119 cards in the set.
My Film Encyclopedia says it was his very 1st screen debut. Perhaps he
was a stage actor in his native England before he came to America.
In any event, I can't imagine not hearing Sidney Greenstreet's voice.
He and Peter Lorre were a "classic" pair.
The Maltese Falcon was made in 1941 and talkies were around for more than a dozen years, so it doesn't make sense to me either...there's a research project for you- what was Sydney Greenstreet doing in the 1930's? You can multitask it while cataloguing E90-1's.
You started, what I thought would be an interesting and informative
Thread on a subject that isn't talked about much on this Forum. And,
it "died". In fact, I was the last to post on your Thread. Sorry, my
post must of been the "kiss of death". I really don't understand it.
Anyhow, it's been over 10 years, but I think Shean was my the 120th
card to complete the set. I don't recall, but is Shean Boston (NL)
or Chicago (NL) in the E90-1 set ?
I ask this because in the T205 set Shean (Chi-NL) is quite tough. He
was traded twice in 1911...from Boston to Chi and then back to Boston.
Uncertainty such as this cause player's cards to become tough to acquire,
as more than likely they were "short-printed". Examples of this are in the
T206 set. Subsequent trades of Demmitt, O'Hara, Elberfeld, Dahlen, Kleinow,
and others during this set's production are some that come to mind.
This message has been edited by tedzan on Mar 23, 2006 6:32 PM
I have not tried to complete the e90 set, but I've paid attention to the toughies and tried to keep track of a few of them as they popped up for sale (not in people's collections).
I know for sure that I've seen duffy the least.
This might have to do with the fact that mitchell is a little bit more sought after due to its status as the toughest in the set (people are more likely to sell it because they know it will bring good money).
I've never been able to find a speaker or a walsh for my collection, but have seen two walsh cards (different examples) available over the last year. I've seen one speaker (very lowgrade) offered publicly since last summer. I haven't followed karger closely enough, but know that i've seen more than one on ebay. I have a keeler horizontal and think it's a tough card, but nowhere near the top three toughies imho.
Jackson is interesting because it's one of those cards (like e90-3 gandil and e98 matty) that aren't known as toughies for the set, but still are scarce because they're highly collectible. Well, doesn't that make them tough? I think so. Tough to find is tough to find. Still, jackson can be found more often than duffy.
This message has been edited by caramelcard on Mar 23, 2006 6:31 PM
It's taken me about 3 years but I have finally completed my e90-1 set. The last 2 cards I needed were McLean and finally Walsh.Some observations from the past 3 years... Duffy and Speaker in decent shape are extremely tough to find. M.Mitchell and Jackson were more readily available if you were willing to pay the price.Others like Bemis and Richie in nice condition are hard to find.
All my cards are SGC graded and there is also another complete set in better condition than mine on the SGC registry.
So far, there are 6 Forum members who have acquired 119/120 cards to com-
plete this set. Of course, I did not expect a large number of completed sets as
these cards are not as available as the numerous T-cards. And, the popularity
of Candy cards seems to be a relatively recent phenomena.
I stopped at an even 100 a few years ago (actually 101--tbob got my Shean), and didn't bother with acquiring the expensive rarities and most of the big dollar star cards. About 50-60 of the more common non-star cards can be had for as cheap as any of the the small size E-cards, at least in the lower grades. A great set, and one that definitely gets overlooked, at least on this board.
Your set counts in my book....after all, Am Car advertised 100 subjects
on the back of these cards. And, you attained that number of cards.
Besides, the remaining 20 "toughies" are there essentially because of
last minute trades or corrections.
Great going, your a man close to my heart. I, too, like to complete sets
in multiples. I've done that with N162, T206, '33 Goudey, '41 PlayBall,
and Bowmans (1948 & 1949) and finally....DARE....I....say....1952 TOPPS.
(pardon me LEON for that last remark). I have collected at least two of
each of these sets in the past 25 years, and many more of the 1948 & 1949
However, with this "baby", I was content with just one set. More power to
you guy, I am really impressed.
I forgot to add.....VILLANOVA.....all the way to the Championship !
This message has been edited by tedzan on Mar 24, 2006 10:53 PM
To answer your Shean team question, he is designated as Boston NL.
Upon checking that info out, a light bulb went off above my head, sometimes just a faint night-light, none-the-less .....
Check out a sampling of e90-1 Boston NL players:
Shean, B. Sweeney, Graham, Richie.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Maybe Am. Caramel finally decided to put out some cards from the worst 1909-11 team (142-315 record those 3 years):
"They just plain sucked! I've seen teams suck before, but they were the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked." -- Homer Simpson.
Although to be fair to the decent Boston Americans:
Stahl, Speaker, Karger, Young, Hall
Cincinnati: Mitchell, MClean, Lobert ......... man my heads starting to hurt.
I think you have "stumbled" across the possible explanation for why
certain cards are so difficult in this set. Your Boston "connection"
appears to be the 1st key. But, I will carry it further by lumping in
both Boston teams' players. And, there is a 2nd "conspiracy" regarding
Cinc. players. What do the following players have in common....TOUGH
Boston (AL) players..Hall, Karger, Schlitzer, Speaker, Stahl, Sweeney.
Boston (NL) players..Donlin, Graham, Shean, Tenney (mgr), Cy Young (traded)
Cincinnati players.....Karger, Lobert, Mitchell
Note....Karger gets a "Double Whammy" as he was traded to Boston in 1909.
So, for some unknown reason the Phladelphia based Co. that produced the
E90-1 Caramel cards had a problem with portraying these players and there-
fore we can only conclude that they were short-printed.
Ted- I think that you and Scott are on to something here.....I count 6 cards each for Boston AL, Boston NL and Cinn. ......could these be the additional 18 cards added later to the original 100 ? If you add on the two variation cards: Clarke Pitts. and Keeler Portrait Red, then you have the 120 cards that we now consider a complete E90-1 set. Regards, Paul
Yes, Ted, the Cy Young Portrait is a Boston card. I guess this puts a dent in the overall theory. Perhaps the two variation cards, Clarke Pitts and Keeler Portrait red were changed within the 1909 period of the first 100 cards. I guess we still have to account for Young traded to Cleveland for 1911 and Duffy named Manager for 1910. You are correct, though, that the short prints do provide much food for thought. Paul
Thanks for confirming the Cy Young portrait as Boston (AL).
I do recall that the Pitching version of Young being Cleveland.
And, I would be willing to bet that Duffy was not in the initial Series of
100 cards; but, was an added in 1910 when he became Mgr. of Chicago (AL).
And therefore, a certain short-print.
Also, I would be willing to bet that Clarke (Phila-NL) was in the first
Series of 100. Subsequently, they added his 2nd card (corrected as Pitts).
Logically, this has to be what occured. It doesn't make any sense, otherwise.
Thanks for displaying my favorite card in this set....Tris Speaker
The Mike Mitchell is my 2nd favorite, simply because this card had an aura
of mystery surrounding it. Why do we have to pay such a high price for just
an average ballplayer of that time period. Perhaps ole Clark Griffith, his Mgr
those years, wouldn't let Mike sign on with Am. Caramel.
However, they added him to their 100 card Series, anyhow. Me thinks near the
end of their production run.
This card somewhat reminds me of the Plank card in the T206 set. It, too, has
an aura of mystery about it. And, believe it or not, in the early 1980's the Mitchell
card carried a pricetag not to much different than the T206 Plank.
Of course as the T206 set's popularity increased significantly, the difference
in $$$$ between these two cards became quite significant.
Well I wish that image of the Jackson card didn't have the overlay on it. Would have been nice to have seen only "card". A few years ago I almost bought one for $100. A guy listed it in a newsletter. I got the mail, opened it while working, and called during lunch. The guy had just sold the card to another caller a few minutes earlier.... RATZ!
I recall the first Mitchell I found, and I was a bit taken aback by it. It is really somewhat ugly, I thought. Harsh colors. But one tough card.
There was a thread on the difficult E90-1 cards a couple of months ago. So I won't repeat that stuff, but to say that the Upp card is way underpriced in the guides, and the Plank card is somewhat underpriced, not so much for difficulty, but for demand. Folks wanting a card of each Hall of Famer have few options on Plank.
Gotta love these dog eared candy cards. Kids got 'em and wore them out, carrying them in their pockets and all; not like the T cards that adults obtained, so there was a bit of care for those, initially.
Well, E90-1 is my favorite set, so I thought I'd chime in. I have 101 of these, missing most of the big ticket cards and some Hall of Famers. I could probably get to 110 without too much trouble if I wanted to spend some money, but might not ever add another. I got most of them in the 1980s and added a few more in the early days of ebay, but none for several years at least. I have a Shean, probably got it early as I don't remember having any trouble with that one. I always thought the Young Cleveland card didn't picture Cy Young, so I never really pursued that one very hard, any other opinions on that?
With 101 cards you qualify as the 10th guy with a near complete set.
I know what you mean by the CYoung pitching pose, but there are other
portrayals in this set that bear little resemblance to the players we
know. These particular cards remind me of the Buchner (N284) set pix.
Big mistake....not getting the Young back then when he was affordable.
Nice cards....keep collecting you're 1/2 to a 100 card set.
Boy, looking at all these pictures brings back many memories of
this set. However, I have no regrets selling this set, as I made
a really great deal at the time. Which, then enabled me to com-
plete 3 of my sets.....my 1933 Goudey set.....my 1949 Leaf set
and....PARDON THE EXPRESSION....guys....but I have to say my
1952 TOPPS set.
I knew you would answer the call for the additional CYoung card....Thanx.
This card tells us that Am Car started producing this set in 1908. This
2nd Young card in the set was added to the original 100 cards to reflect
his trade to Cleveland in Feb 1909.
Andrew and JimB
A possible reason for no Walter Johnson is that Am Caramel for whatever
reasons chose not to portray Washinghton players. I vaguely recall (and I
am sure one of you guys will probably correct me, if I am wrong) that the
only Washington player in this entire set is Bob Unglaub.
Guys do you realize that if we all pulled together and posted each of the E90-1 cards in the set...one scan per post that we would still linger behind the silly Barry Bonds thread by 100 posts or more?
Do you think we could do actually post an entire set one scan at a time from as many unique collections as possible?? Sounds like a safe non-steroid activity to me...Here's a Joss that I traded away a few months ago...
There are 5 cards in this set printed Horizontally....Buster Brown, Charlie
Hall, Addie Joss (pitching), Willie Keeler (throwing) and John Siegle.
This Keeler card depicts him as NY Giant. He ended his career as a Giant in 1910.
Which suggests that this card of him was printed very late in the production run,
and therefore, short-printed. This card's very high price reflects this fact.
The two earlier Keeler cards identify him as a NY Highlander.
The Buster Brown card has him with Boston (NL), which reflects him being
traded to July 1909.
Charlie Hall was involved in a trade from Cinc to Bost(AL) in 1909.
Addie Joss (portrait) in the earlier Series and in this late Series he is
depicted in a pitching pose. I suspect that this card was printed later in
in production process.
I am not sure why Johnny Siegle (sic..Seigle) is in this set, as his very
short playing career ended in 1906.
Peaches Graham....now there's a real "toughie" in this set. And, another
Boston player....what's with this set and the scarcity of cards portraying
Boston (AL or NL) players ?
After looking at all these cards, I think I will start putting together a
2nd set. I found these E90-1 cards in my "junk" box, so here I go again.
I am not going to be fussy this time, as is evident with these 4 cards, so
this set should be more affordable.
This message has been edited by tedzan on Mar 31, 2006 10:40 PM
Great going Colt.....you're darn right he is a tough card in this set.
So, now we need Charlie Hall to have all 5 Horiz. cards on display.
It's funny, Charlie Hall in HS was one of my best friends. Then another
Charlie Hall was one of my best friends when I was in the Air Force.
OK guys, neither of these guys are the same Charlie Hall that is portrayed
in this set. I am not that old, although some think I date back to the
BEN.....I fully agree with you.....the St Louis (NL) team designation
proves this observation.
Willis was certainly one of the tough ones when I was putting my set
together. He was traded from Pitts. to St Louis in Jan 1910.
So, if my theory is correct that American Caramel produced their 1st Series
of cards (the basic 100) in 1908; then, Willis was one of the cards added
on, in the last Series. And, therefore, short-printed.
This message has been edited by tedzan on Apr 1, 2006 8:09 AM
OK, here is the one thing I always disliked about this set - bright red lipstick on a lot of the players. Poor Hughie Jennings is probably the worst, but even the expensive Shoeless Joe Jackson card didn't escape this indignity.
1st....where were you....didn't see you at Philly in March ?
You raise a really great question....but far be it from "little ole me" to
declare that the E90-1 Ty Cobb is his real "rookie" card. I recently had to
dodge a lot of flak when I brought up the subject his 1907 Dietsche P/C.
However, I will present some actual facts on this set and I leave it up to
you guys to decide. One fact I am quite confident of is.....that my study
suggests that the American Caramel Co. of Philadelphia started designing
and producing its 1st Series of cards in 1908.
1....The Cy Young card (portrait) in the 1st Series depicts him with Boston.
He was traded to Cleveland in FEB 1909....and, indeed, a later Series card
of CY depicts him with Cleveland (pitching pose).
Now, compare this with the 3 cards of CY in the T206 set where all 3 have him
with Cleveland. Does this tells us that the 1st Series cards of the E90-1 set
preceded the T206 issue ? Did this series of E90-1 cards get into the market
sometime in 1908, or perhaps very early in 1909 ?
2....And, was the Ty Cobb card in this 1st Series of E90-1 cards ? Well, con-
sider this, most of his career he played CF. The E90-1 card designates his
fielding position as RF. He played in RF from 1907-09 and was switched to CF
when the Left-Handed throwing Sam Crawford took over the RF spot for Detroit.
3....Why does Shoeless Joe Jackson appear in this set ? He was only in 5 games
in 1908 and 1909 (his rookie years). Could it be because he started with the
Phila A's and these cards were produced in Philly ? He never made it into the
T206 set, which has always been a mystery to me.
4....Of course the big mystery is why wasn't Walter Johnson in the E90-1 set ?
His rookie year is 1907, and by then it is possible the printing plate impressions
of first Series cards were already at the printing plant ?
But, in 1910 he had won 25 games and was an established star, so why didn't
Am. Caramel include him in their latter series of cards (which reflect Trades
and Managerial changes in 1910).
OK....enough for now; however, there are even more arguments in favor of a
possible 1908 issue (instead of 1909 as is noted in the Price Guides).
This message has been edited by tedzan on Apr 3, 2006 11:16 AM
I was planning on going to the March Fort Washington but elected to spend quality time with my wife and sons ( probably a good choice).
Additional info indicating an earlier release date for the E90-1 set according to the Lew Lipset Encyclopedia would be both John Butler and Johnny Siegle being out of the Majors by 1907 yet having E90-1 cards .I love a card set with some controversy...I think it adds some mystery .
I hope my comments didn't distract from the parade of beautiful cards displayed here . Here is my lone contribution :
LYLE....your Joe Jax is one of the nicer ones that I have seen.
You and me, both, when it comes to mysterious BB card sets. My favorite
pastime, all these years collecting sportscards, is trying to resolve these
And, thanks for the info; I guess if my thinking is similar to Lew Lipset's
thoughts on this set.....I am really in good company.
In an earlier post on this Thread, I did question why Siegle is in this set.
On the other hand, players like Siegle and Butler being in this set further
the discussion that this set was possibly issued in 1908.
I think we are at a point where we realize there are several levels of scarcity
within the group of "tough" cards. This implies more than just two Series of
E90-1 cards, which I have been eluding to. The consensus of opinion in this
Thread definitely places this Hugh Duffy card in the highest level of scarcity.
This is consistent with our research, as his card was a very late entry into
this set......his card reflects him as Manager of Chicago (AL) which began at
the start of the 1910 season,
I am now suggesting that the E90-1 set breaks down to 3 series of 120 cards.
Thanks Scott, for ressurecting(SP.) this old Post. I just started collecting this set. I always admired this set but was stuck on hof collecting for many years. Anyway, here's the ones I've got in the last couple months
There is a subsequent Thread on this Forum that pretty well proves that the 1st Series of both the American Caramel sets....
E91 and E90-1....were issued in 1908. And, the last Series of these two sets were issued in 1910.