I am curious to hear of how many collectors are there in the forum that collect these cards. Everything that I have read about them is that they are not widely collected because it is such a large set - but that doesn't make much sense to me. Are there certain cards that impossible to find? Is it the size of the cards (not being the typical small tobacco or caramel issue size)? I understand that the Johnson rookie would be a toughy to get because of price and I really don't look at the square bordered cards as being a part of the set - just really a subset. That is, of course, unless S. B. wants to sell me his square bordered subset So what is it? I think the cards are probably the most attractive cards that exist due to the gold borders and the great portrait pictures.
Are tons of people collecting these cards and just not telling anyone? I'm curious to hear the responses of veteran collectors as to their thoughts on this wonderful set. I also a few people that read this forum have the set complete - I hope to be one of them even though I have just begun to really collect the set hardcore.
It is a beautiful set and I have owned a few over the years, but I think the reason they are not as widely collected by set collectors is that it is missing a lot of the big name HOFs from the era. No Matty, no Cobb, no Wagner.
I have only two Ramly's. Ciccote and Jimmie Collins. Both graded a two. The cicotte in my opinion should have been a three, but hey, what do I know. It is a very very nice 2. I thought about collecting them, but I pursue one player, and he is not in the set. So that takes care of that, beautiful cards yes indeed. One of the nicest. very hards to find in a 5 and up, due to the gold leaf border chipping. They are composed of two sheets of paper that were glued together in the manufacturing process. Sometimes that glue comes loose, and then you have a seperated back and front. I have seen this several times. One card would have graded a 4, if the front and back had stayed together.
This message has been edited by ozzyzoe on Apr 14, 2006 4:31 PM
But to tell you the truth that is the reason why I am collecting them more because I know that I can collect a great looking set without being forced to throw a ton of cash into a bunch of cards. The ramly set is filled with only 15 HOFers I think and really only two of them will cost me a bunch od cash to get (Johnson and Burkett). The others are not very pricey, just hard to find. I know Bill Cornell has a nice start on a set. What do you think Bill? I saw a plank awhile back on ebay that I should have bought, and regret not doing so.
Maybe the more hard core HOF collectors don't collect the set for that reason Jim, but what about those guys like me that love the set and are drawn to it for the very reason that some may not like it.
Bryan - I have collected Ramlys for about 20 years and have a high grade set for Ramlys. Scott Brockelman also collects them and has a high grade set. Both of us have the 6 square bordered cards and collect TTT backs. I don't think that any cards in the base set of 121 cards are rarer than others, although they are all quite rare. The 6 square bordered cards and the 55 or so cards that have TTT backs are all much rarer than the other Ramlys. I think there are only 5 to 10 of each of these cards and maybe 50 to 100 of the Ramlys. Burried in the set registry thread I have some comments on my Ramly collecting and there was a TTT thread some time ago that you could search.
I collect all things Cardinals including vintage. I have 5 of the 7 St. Louis (National League) players in the set. I have Byrnes, Beebe, Sallee, Lush and Konetchy. I need Reilly and Bresnahan. I have been outbid on the Bresnahan card several times and don't believe I've ever seen a Reilly for sale or auction.
I've often wondered why t204 wasn't more popular. I assume scarcity is the cause, although it's not as tough as, say, E90-3's, and sometimes it seems like everyone is pursuing that set. I bought a few t204's back in the late 80's and was shrewd enough (ahem) to hold on to them, so when I got back into collecting ~5 years ago, I picked up the cause again. Never thought that I'd accumulate 100 and I'm not sure I'd want to start that effort from scratch now, but it's a great set.
I'm going to hope that the $40K+ for the SGC 60 Johnson in Mastro was an aberration and that the card will come back down to 1/4 or 1/3 the price again. As Peter notes, there are no rarities (i.e., all 121 are the same difficulty), but there are a few (Pelty, Paskert, Morgan, et al) that do seem just slightly tougher.
You can't collect everything. Although my wife suspects me of attempting it.
The Ramly cards are ugly. And most of us usually looks at our cards (an exception would be the folks who look only at the PSA labels above their slabbed cards, I sometimes think they truly just collect the plastic slabs, I'm tempted to list some "busted" slabs and labels where I've hacksawed out a few cards). The cards are ugly. If a fellow wanted to collect cards of that era, or cards of certain players of that era, he would most likely go for T206s, E90-1s, or maybe Cracker Jack cards. T3s are nice looking, but their size puts some collectors off. Same for M113s. We want to collect something at least someone else is collecting. I do agree that the absence of some of the players detracts from the set... but look at the color! The shape! These are the coyote cards of the turn of the 20th century!
So a few of us have a few for type cards. Some of us collect all of one team. And while everyone on the board would be tickled if some unknown distant cousin passed away and willed us a set, the T204s aren't in the bullseye or crosshairs of our collecting focus. How many of us search "T204" or "Ramly" in our eBay searches? Come to think of it, I guess I should search Ramly in descriptions, in case some antique mall seller has one and knows not what it is...
So I don't think the main reason for few collectors is the cost, or the lack of HOF players... it is their appearance. I'm kinda ugly, dated zillions of girls before I found one who'd marry me. The pickers and collectors out there are after the attractive, not the ugly.
I think you'll find that most collectors find the set one of the most attractive sets ever. I know I do. Rarity is what has always kept me away from the cards. I will eventually have a few in my collection again because there are several players that make their lone card appearance in this set.
I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.
I guess everyone has their collecting interest for certain reason. I to say that I have never heard someone say the t204 ramly cards were ugly. Oh well. I am happy to hear that there are no really hard cards in the set - no harder than any of the others anyway.
But Mr. Brown above is solid, very distinguished looking, and I appologize if I offended His Threefingeredness. I've always been partial to Ed Reulbach myself, and think he belongs in the Hall. Would have been had he not gotten mired up in helping the Players groups against the owners. Ed's presence in that rotation sure did help the Cubs get a pennant, and a championship.
Thanks for sharing Mordacai.
Next thing you guys will be telling me is that those Rose post cards look pretty...
Wow Frank!!! I appreciate any man that has conviction to his words, but Ramly's are beautiful. I have never been a set collector, but I have made up my mind that if I were to start, Ramly's would be my first choice. I do have "Ramly" as one of my EBay search formats. My two cards:
This message has been edited by rose-hof_selig-sob on Apr 15, 2006 7:32 PM This message has been edited by rose-hof_selig-sob on Apr 15, 2006 6:28 PM This message has been edited by rose-hof_selig-sob on Apr 14, 2006 9:39 PM This message has been edited by rose-hof_selig-sob on Apr 14, 2006 9:38 PM This message has been edited by rose-hof_selig-sob on Apr 14, 2006 9:34 PM This message has been edited by rose-hof_selig-sob on Apr 14, 2006 9:28 PM This message has been edited by rose-hof_selig-sob on Apr 14, 2006 9:26 PM This message has been edited by rose-hof_selig-sob on Apr 14, 2006 9:23 PM
I'm a relatively young collector [under 30], and I have not been able to place a Philadelphia Nationals example from this set over the last 8-10 months. I just want to start with at least one. Such a beautiful set - but so hard to find.
If you didn't believe me about the detraction to the T204 set was it's lack of beauty (I still think ugly), then consider this. To determine why the set is not collected heavily, you'd need to get responses from folks who collect that era and those players, but not that set. Most of the responses here are from collectors who DO collect T204, and that is not the folks you need to hear from as to why the set is not collected. Obviously these guys are enchanted with the little black and white odd sized photos, doctored up with border decoration so they might have a tiny chance of competing with T206, 5, and even 7. Half of these guys may well have a first born child named Ramly. But to answer your question you need to here from those who collect around the set, but not this set. I collect from that era, and those players. I think T204s are..... unattractive.
If I come across an affordable Philadelphia Nationals card I'll grab it up and email you. Note my email address.
Here are the 6 known square frame Ramly's, as Peter mentioned both he and I have a set, this was a second set i used to own, that another board member now owns. As far as I know, there are only 3 of the John Anderson squsre frames known, hence there can only be 3 complete sets, however some unknown collector could have one.
Also the reason that the Sqaure frames probably exist is that 5 of the 6 have Worcester Mass.(where they were produced) ties and Dineen was also a big hero of the 1903 World Series and a local favorite.
I'm curious about your comment regarding the Square Frame Ramlys being produced in Worcester, Massachusetts since I was born in Worcester, and raised in the suburbs.
I have always seen literature point to Taunton, Massachusetts as where T204s originated. Was Taunton just the distribution point but not where the cards were actually produced? Were Square Framed produced in a different town/city than the "regular" Ramlys?
I have forgotten the actual address of the factory, however Peter Thomas has it, the building no longer stands, but i am 99% sure it's a Worcester address, (Peter is a Worcester native i believe). the facts pertaining to the Square frame subset were passed on to me from long time collector Bob Richardson.
Actually I grew up in Natick about 16 miles west of boston and about 30 miles east of Worcester, where my grandparents lived. I moved to Boston to go MIT and study architecture in 1960 and stayed there until 1980, when I moved to Miami. I believe that all of the T204 - Ramlys, TTT's and square bordered cards were produced in Boston and somewhere I do have an address. I think T. T. Tinayens had all of these cards produced. Although Boston has lots of old buildings this one is gone. My belief is that the 6 square bordered, blank backed, cards were proof or test printing cards. There are blank back T204 cards, some are from delamination, but there is an extraordinary correlation of these blank backed cards with the 6 square bordered cards. Look at the REA auction with an Anderson blank back. Scott I recall your telling me about the Worcester connection of these players, but I have not done any research on this. I thought that by now I would have plenty of time for this, but I am now working 60 + hours a week on what I think is close to the end of the 15 year building boom in Miami. When this ends I should have plenty of time for T204 research.
This message has been edited by PeterWThomas on Apr 15, 2006 5:17 PM
Going to try to post images - no scanner at home and unsure of photobucket.
First fronts of square borders
Second backs of square borders
Third fronts of TTT and Ramly
Fourth backs of TTT and Ramly
Fifth back of blank back
This message has been edited by PeterWThomas on Apr 15, 2006 7:28 PM This message has been edited by PeterWThomas on Apr 15, 2006 7:23 PM This message has been edited by PeterWThomas on Apr 15, 2006 7:21 PM
I dont have a good explanation except he was the most obscure player i could find in the set and when i looked to buy one 3 were available so i bought them.The other 2 popped up at the same time around a year or so ago,so chances are if one shows up and you dont win,just look for another that day
Before anyone else asks those are the only t204 cards i have.I dont even have ANY other players, forget doubles of anyone else.