Hello to all visitors! Please visit the NEW Net54 board at
www.Net54baseball.com
You can directly contact the moderator here if you have any questions or comments. Enjoy!
Since reading Scot Reader's work, I have found myself even more preoccupied with
the backs of my 206's. Tonight while thumbing through nearly 400 different 206's, I noted scores of piedmonts,sweet caporals; several
polar bears;15 or so Old Mill's (no browns);10 or so sovereign's; 10 or so
Tolstoi's; a handful of american beauty's 350,460; and a handful or so of
Cycle's 350 and 460; a handful of Hindu browns; one carolina brights; and
just 2 EPDG's.
Having just a couple of EPDG's surprised me a bit.
Any other folks have this experience?!
I made a conscious effort to get the Hindu's,Beauty's, and Brights.
Not so for the rest.
many thanks for the help
barry
This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 2, 2006 11:49 PM
Always have heard the back is not one of the rare ones but I certainly agree with you Barry. They don't get much respect pricewise either though. I only have 1!
As you know, Perfessor, I'm rather conscious of backs myself and was similarly surprised to find I have just three EPDG's out of my current 179 T206's. The breakdown:
MANY thanks.
i wonder what this means about EPDG's.
steve, i notice that you have quite a few of some of the
rarer backs----is it because you made a conscious effort to
get these, and not so much the EPDG's.
even so, i wonder if we need to reevaluate the rarity of
EPDG.
by the way, buddy, Willetts brought an sgc 50---found
it on the sgc website today!!!
best
barry
p.s. you're right Matthew! it is the Lindaman i got from you ages ago!
This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 3, 2006 12:42 AM This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 3, 2006 12:19 AM
Anyway, I think EPDG backs are as difficult as our numbers suggest. However, I guess I haven't been as willing to pay a premium for them as I have for, say, AB or Hindu backs. I might have to change that thinking.
Out of a collection of about 30, which includes 1 brown Hindu, 2 Cycles, a Tolstoi, 3-4 Polar Bears, and a pile of Sweet Caps and Piedmonts, I have one EPDG -- of Vive Lindaman.
For the sake of this "survey" this might skew your numbers a bit, though, as I was actually seeking out the back to get an example for my collection.
I will follow up Richard's post with another tough T206 in the 150-only Series
and mine is Carl Lundgren (Cubs) with an EPDG back. It is a rare combination
to find the 10, or so, cards in this set that only exist in the 150 Series with
backs other than the usual Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, or Sovereign ones.
And, I surveyed my 600+ T206's and found only one other EPDG back and it is
the Rucker (portrait). So, here is a sample more consistent with yours.
The remaining tougher backs (BroadLeaf, Carolina Brights, Drum, Hindu, Lenox,
and Uzit) in my current collection outnumber the EPDG. But, that's because
I make an extra effort to acquire them: whereas, I do not regarding the EPDG.
Barry, thanx for bringing up this subject, as I always thought the EPDG backs
do not get their due respect in the T206 set.
Out of my 520 or so I have 4. I did not go out of my way to buy any, but I know when I made an effort buy them I they commanded a small premium. I always thought they were underrated on the toughness list. Scott Reader has they the most definitive data that is not skewed by collecting habits.
There was an earlier thread about whetther this board can alter the prices realized, well a thread like this will definately make the prices for EPDG go up.
I've always thought EPDG were a lot tougher also-- in my near-set of 518, I have 3. I tried to get one of each back, but otherwise I neither sought out not avoided unusual backs.
Full back breakdown:
Drum 0
Uzit 0
Lenox 1
Carolina Bright 1
Broadleaf 1
Hindu (red) 1
American Beauty 1
Hindu (brown) 2
EPDG 3
Cycle 6
Sovereign 6
Tolstoi 7
Polar Bear 14
Old Mill 21 (18 are Southern Leaguers)
Sweet Cap 191
Piedmont 263
like most of you...i have not really sought out or avoided this back...i have 1 for my backs type collection out of 100 or so t206's. it's a rudolph, toronto.
Over the last several years I have made a concerted efftort to pick up as many difficult backs as possible including EPDG backs (Out of about 500 I have: 15 EPDG, 17 Tolstoi, 103 Hindu's, 52 AB, 69 Cycles, 18 CB, 16 BL's), and I have found that they have been twice as difficult to collect as the AB or Hindu, but with that being said people tend to sell the more visible backs. Personally I think this back deserves a higher place on the difficulty list, but perhaps some people have been hoarding them. Hopefully this thread does not increase the value, so I can continue to collect them at a reasonable price. Just my two cents.
I have an EPDG Ty Cobb red portrait, and Bob Rhoades
right arm out. I was surprised that Ted Zanidakis mentioned
he has a Lundgren Cubs - I've never seen a 150 series
shortprint with an El Principe De Gales back and I've
been collecting T206 since 1980.
Would like to know if any other collectors have the difficult 9 shortprints with EPDG backs listed below.
Browne(Chi),Burch (Bat),Donlin (Fielding),Evers (Blue),Lundgren (Chi),Pattee,Pelty,Reulbach (Glove),
and Powers.
In my collection of about 250 or so T206's, I have six with an EPDG back. Like many other collectors they have not been a priority, more incidental once I got one of them:
Jennings - both hands
Evers - port
Congalton
Oldring
Bliss
Zimmerman
American Beauty 194
Broadleaf 22
Carolina Brights 43
Drum 7
ELPD 33
Hindu 125
Lenox 10
Red Hindu 7
Pied 42's 28
Uzit 6
Tolstoi 16
I focus on all of the tough backs, but especially Hindu Slers and Carolina Brights. ELPD and Tolstoi's are not in my focus group, but they are tougher than people think.
Be well Brian
I'll join the chorus.
Out of my 500 or so T206s, I probably have no more than 6-10 EPDG backs. I'll look through them later and see how many.
But according to my records, so far this year ~115 EPDG backs have been sold on eBay.
Over the same period, there have been about twice that many Old Mills (not counting the Southern Leaguer version) and about four times that many Polar Bears.
On the other hand, there have been (many) fewer Tolstoi, Cycle, American Beauty, and Hindu backs than the EPDGs.
I was surprised when I looked at the totals. I too would have thought they were tougher to find -- tougher than American Beauty anyway.
Brian, I don't know which is more impressive, 125 Hindus or 28 Factory 42s. Wow.
Scot Reader was surprised, too, when I informed him of my Lundgren (Cubs) with
an EPDG back.
Also, I have discussed with Scot that I have never observed Vive Lindaman with
a 350 Subjects back (and since 1981 I have seen thousands of T206 cards). This
card is probably the 10th SP in the 150-only Series.
And, it is interesting that Richard in his above post mentions he has a Lindaman
with an EPDG back.
I acquired my Lundgren (Cubs) with the EPDG back in 1984 when I was working on
my 1st T206 set and was trying to also acquire all the 15 basic Tobacco backs.
And, although I have had quite a number of Lundgren (Cubs) cards since, I have
never seen another with an EPDG back.
So, I have a question for you guys out there on this great Forum....check-out your
Vive Lindaman cards....does anyone have this card with a 350 Subjects back ?
What a wealth of information.
Many,many thanks.
It does look like the data is pointing to more of a rarity for EPDG than
any of us suspected or expected.
Now i do wonder just what this means?
Have collectors not held it in high regard, for some reason?
Did the folks who bought these initially in the early part of the 20th century put them in their bicycle spokes (or whatever they had) like a lot
of my buddies did with their 'dalrymples' in the late 50's and early 60's.
Were fewer produced than we might have thought?
Are folks just keeping them, because we collectors don't want to pay any sort
of premium for them?
Admittedly, i realize these are no red hindu's---but now we know they are sure no commons either.
by the way, my lindaman is an EPDG, TRex.
also many thanks to the back collectors whose collections were even more
phenomenal than i had anticipated!!!! Congrats
barry
This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 3, 2006 3:52 PM
Am I confused on the Lundgren? I have never seen it listed as a 150 only card. Although mine is a Pied 150, I believe that I have sold a Piedmont 350. I still have a scan of the front of the card in a SGC holder, it is dated 1910 Piedmont. From what I can tell SGC lists the 150 series 1909, the 350 series 1910, and the 460 series 1911.
Lindaman is one of seven 150-only candidates beyond the ones everybody knows about. Others include Doyle (Throwing), Ewing, Lundgren (Chicago), Schulte (Front View) and two others I can't think of right now. I wrote about these seven possible 150-only additions in my manuscript and nobody has yet indictated to me that they have any of them in 350--which makes me think these seven are indeed 150-only. Also, as Ted rightly notes, Lundgren (Chicago) seems to only be possible with Piedmont 150 and EPDG, e.g. not possible with any Sweet Caporal back. Scot
If you had a Lundgren (Cubs) with a 350 back, you would have a T206 so unique
it would compare with the Plank (Piedmont 150) of which there is only one known.
I have seen where SGC has been inconsistent with their label dates; therefore, I
would caution using this as indication of card's back.
Are you possibly thinking of Lundgren's Kansas City card in the 350 Series ?
All the T206 publications (Heitman, Peavey, and Reader) agree the Lundgren (Cubs)
card exists only in the 150 Series.
Incidently, your Lindaman (Hindu) is really rare card.
I use to keep really good records of all my sales on ebay but the last couple of years I have not. maybe it's time to start again. I looked thru about 50 of my SGC T206s and they were as noted earlier, so that is my assumption.
I purchased the Lindaman just cause I needed it and paid about $25, a little premium for the HINDU.
Lee's right. Here's my Lundgren Chicago with a Piedmont 350 back.
By the way, Joe P. (who used to post here) wrote that he has a schulte front view with a 350 back as well. Search for "schulte front view" and you'll find the thread.
Robert
This message has been edited by caramelcard on Jun 3, 2006 6:38 PM This message has been edited by caramelcard on Jun 3, 2006 6:37 PM
Of the 250 or so SGC graded T206 cards I own, three of them are EPDG. I have never put any effort into acquiring a card because of its back, except in two cases -- where I picked up a Hindu Joss Portrait and a nice Cycle Back. Otherwise, I have only been interested in fronts. I may have a couple more in my 270 or so ungraded T206 cards...
I have over 500 T206 and 22 with EPDG backs. HOFers and commons. A couple low grade examples in GAI holders were auctioned off on ebay just a day or so ago.
Out of 510 T-206s, I have 9 EPDG backs (Bresnahan batting, Doughtery fielding, Herzog (NY Nat'l), Jennings yelling, Leach portrait, McAleese, Titus, Weimer, Willetts pitching). That's under 2% of my collection (roughly 1.76%).
My Lindaman and Lundgren Chicago are both Piedmont 150.
My back breakdown:
Piedmont 230 (one is 350-460 fact. 42)
Sweet Cap 138
Sovereign 28
Old Mill 28 (incl SLers)
Polar Bear 23
Tolstoi 16
Amer. Beauty 11
Cycle 10
EPDG 9
Hindu 7 (incl SLers, no red hindus)
Carolina Brights 3
Broadleaf 3
Drum 2 (Konetchy fielding low ball, Pfeister pitching)
Lenox 1 (Marquard pitching)
Uzit 1 (Leach fielding)
I made an effort to collect at least one of each back type. I've bought most of my mid-level back types at common prices (or small premium, say a buck or two in most cases - I'm a low grade collector).
Mike (18colt)
PS: This is not meant to hijack the thread, but speaking of Tolstoi, would anyone know how rare a Tolstoi reverse is in the T-218 set (I know, not baseball, but pre-war)? Thanks.
I have 5 EPDG out of a collection of 649 unique front/back T206. Most were aquired by trade or in lots......... I'd guess that I've bought fewer than a dozen single cards. As a result I'm less weighted in HOF and SL than normal.
From the information above I think its safe to say
Ludgren Chi is not a 150 series only card. That gets
me back to my thoughts that EPDG is a 350 series back.
The other eight 150 series only cards most likely cannot
have the EPDG or Old Mill backs.
Backtofinal4, send me a scan of the cobb signature on the back of your card. I have a handwritten letter and a bank check I can compare the signature to. email MILFORD97@AOL.COM
Hi Barry,
Many of us T206 "Nuts" believe that EPDG and Old Mill's were not distributed in the first series, but shortly thereafter. To date I have never seen any of the 9 "150 series only" cards with an Old Mill or EPDG back. Most show up with Piedmont backs, and most, if not all have been seen with Sovereign, Hindu, and Sweet Cap backs. Hope that helps Brian
many thanks, brian.
do you think this later than the 150's 'grand opening' explains the rarity of
the EPDG?
any explanation for why it has gotten so little
'acclaim' for its rarity?
obviously, it's no lenox or uzit but it sure is rarer than we thought.
thanks for the help, brian.
by the way, i heard you were a tarhill.
even though i've been a floridian for many, many years, i was born in N.C.
and went to Davidson College, so tarhill is in my blood---as well as these
206's.
For accuracy my list of the nine 150 series shortprints
should have read;
Browne(Chi),M. Brown (Cubs), Burch (Bat),Donlin (Fielding),
Evers (Blue),Pattee,Pelty,Powers, Reulbach (Glove).
I've corresponded with collectors who have tried to
do all nine with all the back variations. They cannot
find EPDG or Old Mill, it was reasoned they do not
exist in 150 series. The first brands were Piedmont
Sweet Cap, Sovereign, and Hindu.
I've emailed Bill Heitmann author of the T206 Monster,
some time ago.
He did not confirm the existence of the 9 with EPDG or
Old Mill backs. As I recall, when he checked, his were
Hindu backs.
I was really surprised to hear of a Lundgren (Cubs) with a P350 back. I have
hoarded several of these cards since the early '80s (about a dozen of them).
I have only seen this card with a 150 Subjects back (usually P150) and the
El Principe de Gales one that I have had for over 20 years.
Now, the other player that I have never seen other than a "150" is Vive
Lindaman. And, at least two posters in this Thread have EPDG Lindaman backs
and one an even tougher HINDU back.
You have seen many, many T206's and I ask you.....have you ever seen a "350"
Lindaman ?
Heitman, Peavey and Reader all document that EPDG and HINDU backs were in
the 150-Series. And, I agree with you and Scot that OLD MILL (asst.) backs
were not printed on the original 150-Series cards.
In fact, Scot Reader suggests that the following could also be 150-only cards....
Ames (front)....Doyle (throw)....Ewing....Tom Jones (St. Louis)....Lindaman....
Lundgren (Cubs)....Schulte (Cubs).
Ok, guys check-out your T206's and let's see if we can confirm that these cards
are indeed 150-only....or, do any of you have them with "350" backs ?
I will start....my Ames, Doyle, Ewing, Jones and my 2 - Lindamans have P150
backs. All my Lundgrens have P150 backs, except the one EPDG back. And, I
have 5 - Schulte cards, 4 are P150 and 1 is a SC150.
This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 4, 2006 10:56 PM
Come on guys, we need more inputs....check-out your "magnificent" T206 cards
and let's get some meaningful data to the above question ? ?
If a silly BARRY (Bonds) thread can generate 300+ responses on this Forum,
then why can't we get at least 100+ responses to this BARRY Arnold Thread ?
After all, this is meaningful stuff to us "obsessive" T206 collectors.
So far we have.....
Player.....150....350....EPDG....HINDU
Ames.......16............................2
Doyle.......16............................2
Ewing.......15.................3.........1
Jones.......16.................1..........3
Lindaman..16.................3.........5
Lundgren...18.......1........4.........0
Schulte.....19.................0.........2
Totals......116.......1.......11........15
This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 6, 2006 10:27 PM This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 6, 2006 1:34 PM This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 6, 2006 1:26 PM This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 5, 2006 8:44 PM This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 5, 2006 8:32 PM This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 5, 2006 1:14 PM
My TOm Jones (ST Louis) is EPDG, one of 6 EPDG in my collection of 550+ total cards (the others: Magee with Bat, Hallman, Ganley, Davidson & Burchell). Both my Lundgren Chicago and Lindaman are Piedmont 150.
heck, not sure what ya'll are doing but here's my few types of backs from t206's....if there's more info you need just ask and I will get it this evening....right now I am working (I left the prices I paid....and have acquired them over the last 5-8 yrs)..nothing special
Ray correctly described what is happening in this Thread. We have a sub-set
of Barry's original topic and that is what additional T206's are found only as
150 Subjects cards. There are 9 well-documented cards in this category, and
it has been theorized that, perhaps, there are 7 more.
This came up early in this Thread and as a consequence I've started tabulating
inputs on these 7 cards from Forum members (see above Table). The collective
knowledge and T206 collections represented in this Forum is a tremendous
resource for a survey like this.
I think I probably should have initiated a distinct Thread on this subject, but
we all were having a lot of fun....so this is it.
It's all good...don't think we will break 300 posts like the Bonds Steroid thread but this one is much more oriented towards what this board is all about. No need to reply but if you need any other info from my few cards let me know. It's pretty funny though....since I posted them I have had a few private emails about selling or trading some..... On the T206's I am only collecting the backs, for the most part, but that certainly wasn't my intention of posting. Did ya see what I had to pay for my Uzit in vg-ex? It was in the same group I got one of my AWH E222's in....and had to pay $200 for it..in gd-vg....those days are over I think....regards
I've looked through my T206s, there are about 515 of them...
6 are EPDG. And that surprised me, figured there were about a dozen before I saw this thread, and thought there might only be 2 or 3 after reading but before looking. Saw more Cycles than I recalled, and only saw one Hindu, thought I had 3 or 4 of those.
Are you wanting to know backs of other cards? Which ones, and I'll dig through them again.
Thanks Steve Y., Bill, J Hull, and Drew for your inputs. They have been
tabulated.
J Hull
I entered the 3 cards you have; but, I did not enter the 3 - Jones' that
you noted seeing on ebay since you did not sound too certain. And, since
there are 4 - Jones in the set, 3 of which are typically 350 backs, I cannot
accept them as valid. So far, I have been tabulating cards that are actually
in personal collections. Please understand this.
The present (9 PM) total is 63 - "150 Subjects" (Piedmont, Sweet Caporal)....
1 - Piedmont 350 (Lundgren)......7 - EPDG......4 - HINDU.
Note....Not one Sovereign 150 has been reported....."very interesting".
This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 5, 2006 9:18 PM
couldn't wait to get home to check out things and it's already after 10pm
great work tabulating. it looks like epdg continues to be rarer than we thought and it looks like your cards continue to be 150's!
we still need more of a sampling, don't we?!
Hi Ted,
Going over my set and I found 6 EPDG.
BARGER
CICOTTE
JIMMY COLLINS
HERZOG
PFEFFER
TANNEHILL
and one that was stolen 10yrs ago a nm white cap mathewson. One of my
nicest t-206's
Ames hands at chest sweet cap 150
Doyle pied 150
ewing pied 150
jones pied 150
lindaman pied 150 and hindu
ludgren pied 150
shulte sweet 150
Been out of town for a few days. Great thread. I have
555 T206s and
7 EPDGs
Like some others, when I was going through piles of t206s when piecing my set together I went out of my way to pick up as many different backs as possible. Whenever I found an EPDG of a card that I did not have in vg/ex or better, I bought bought it (given that the price was reasonable). I don't know if this matters, but my set was mostly pieced together by going through dealer inventories, not ebay.
JimB
I was surprised to only find two EPDGs in a group of 475 t206s.
The two I have are Bridwell and Chase blue portrait. I just recently sold two graded EPDGs (Tinker and Bresnahan portrait).
Hi Ted,
I'll have more later, but here are my numbers so far:
1. Ames (front)I have a Hindu
2. Doyle (throw)I have a Hindu
3. Ewing I have a Hindu
4. Tom Jones (St. Louis)I have a Hindu
5. Lindaman I have reports of atleast 1 350, but have not seen a scans yet.
6. Lundgren (Cubs) Have seen 3 EPDG's
7. Schulte (Cubs) Joe P is the only one who claims to have a 350.
Have seen 4 Lindman Hindu's including yours Lee, and 2 Schulte Hindu's.
This Thread is very revealing and I hope Scot Reader is following it.
However, Barry, I have somewhat "hi-jacked" your original intent and I hope
you don't mind. It has become a "Two for One" survey.
Mike T....Ron....Martin N....thank you for your inputs, I will be tabulating
your numbers this AM.
Martin Neal, check your Larry Doyle, it cannot be his "throwing pose"; as there
are no Polar Bear backs in the 150 Series.
JimB and T206Collector....we would appreciate your inputs on these 7 cards of
interest ?
And still.....no SOVEREIGN backs on these "suspicious 7"......this is becoming
very, very interesting and may well lead to a new survey (on a new Thread).
Lee,is that the Lundgren you sold to me off that wannabe(cant think of the name of it) ebay site last year for the hurricane relief?
I dont know offhand how many or who i have with EPDG backs but if the thread is still going on the weekend ill chime in.
BTW,am i the only person who's never written down which specific back each card has? I could tell you the brand but ive never noted which series it is,except with Pied 42's. I went probably 3 years figuring i had all the American Beauty backs but when i actually sat down and looked i only had 1 of the 3 versions and had to buy the other 2 right away.I never noted the backs but figured i had enough AB's to at least have one of each
No problem guy.....and, I do not mean to be "picky".....but, it is important that
you tell me which Tobacco brands your 6 cards are in the 150 Series ?
SGC's pop report lists one 1909 Sovereign back for Lindaman and Tom Jones. There appears to be a few 150 onlys with a single Sov 150 back. It is still tough to read the SGC pop reports if the player has multiple poses.
Thank you Mike T, Ron, Martin N, Brian W and JimB for your inputs.
The total as of 1;30 today is.......
PIEDMONT 150 or SWEET CAPORAL 150 backs = 84
El PRINCIPE de GALES backs = 10
HINDU backs = 14
And, there is one "P350" back which I am beginning to question at this point.
We have examined 108 cards and just 1 - P350 really raises a "flag" in mind.
Sorry, guys but I am very skeptical at this point regarding this one input.
keep it going Ted.
great work.
i love the various tributaries opening up---feels like
discoveries! Lee B.'s on to the 150 sovereign issue on
another thread so it looks like tributaries/discoveries
are abounding!!
These are the backs on the other 7 cards you guys are tracking:
Ames, hands at chest - Piedmont 150 fac 25
Doyle, throwing - Sweet Caporal 150 fac 25
Ewing - Sovereign 150 fac 24
Jones, St Louis - Piedmont 150 fac 25
Lindaman, Boston - Sovereign 150 fac 24
Lundgren, Chicago - Piedmont 150 fac 25
Schulte, Chicago - Piedmont 150 fac 25
Ted:
Just back from a trip. Tomorrow will post some results of my survey data on EPDG and the seven [or six if Lundgren (Chicago) has been confirmed with Piedmont 350] possible 150-only additions.
Scot
This survey regarding the 7 (possible) cards at this point is overwhelmingly
in favor of them being "150-only" candidates.
The single exception of one reported "P350" of a Lundgren (Cubs) is raising
doubts in my mind. Perhaps this card was mistaken for Lundgren (KC) which
of course would be a 350 Series card. Statistically speaking, something just
does not jive here. Call me a "skeptic", but until some more "350" cards are
reported in this survey, I have my doubts.
Also, aren't you surprised by the few (3) reported Sovereign 150 cards in this
group ?
Ames, hands at chest - Piedmont 150 fac 25
Doyle, throwing - Piedmont 150 fac 25
Jones, St Louis - Piedmont 150 fac 25
Lindaman, Boston - Sovereign 150 fac 25
Schaefer Detroit - SC 150 fac 30
Hey guy......I fully agree with you. I am presently working on my 3rd T206
set (3/4 complete) and I know that there are other possible candidates that
fit "150-only" category. However, early in this Thread a comment was made that
certain "150-only cards could not have EPDG backs", so this motivated me to
start this survey (focusing on these particular 7 cards). Anyone else can con-
tinue this on any number of additional T206's suspected of being "150-only".
thanks Art.
i had a feeling with that many epdg's you were going to
have the most t206's of the crowd---and with 1200 you're right up there.
we can still contend that epdg is much rarer than we thought.
i see your point about sov. 150's rarity,too, ted; lee b.'s
thread is corroborative.
and with your data on the 150 only folks, it looks like the
backs world is gaining some very interesting clarity.
Great thread!!!
I have about 580 T206--all collected prior to 1975, with no regard for backs.
There are only 2 EPDG-
Schlei catching and Pfeister seated
Of the seven we're tracking:
Ames--Piedmont 150
L. Doyle throwing--Hindu
Ewing--Piedmont 150
Jones--Piedmont 150
Lindaman--Piedmont 150
Lundgren (3)--all three are Piedmont 150
Schulte--Hindu
Ted,
Two lundgren chicago with piedmont 350s have been reported in this thread.
I'd be happy to send mine to you if you'd like to take a closer look. Let me know.
Chesbro
Cobb Bat off
Flanagan
Groom
Marquard Hands Down (2)
Jennings Portrait
I've always felt the Jennings Portrait was harder to find than other 150 cards. It also seems to be found with EPDG and Piedmont 150, but I haven't seen the card with other backs that I remember in the 150 series.
This message has been edited by caramelcard on Jun 6, 2006 11:32 PM This message has been edited by caramelcard on Jun 6, 2006 11:29 PM
You initiated a great Thread with your EPDG question. Great, because it also
stimulated debate as to the validity of EPDG backs on the 150-only cards in the
set. And, I guess my Lundgren (Cubs) EPDG was the "spark" that ignited it.
Back in the early '80s, another Barry (Sloate) clued me in on the "tough" T206
cards when I first started collecting this set. And, it was then when I acquired
this card and I still recall how excited I was to show it to Barry. Well, 22 years
later, I'm excited again since this card was a factor in the tremendous response
to your Thread.
Many,many thanks, ted.
I feel a bit like frank w. when he says he's worn out(on another thread) because i've done nothing much the last days but check and recheck this site.
But it is a great ride!!!
And it's not over---scot reader et al are promising more information.
Keep tabulatin'!
The jury is still out on these 7 possible "150-only" candidates. But, you
must admit that this survey, so far, is indicating that there is a pretty
high probability that at least 6 of them are in this category.
More significantly, it confirms that these cards were available with EPDG
backs. And, if you are still not convinced on these in the survey, then
please consider the early input on this Thread (by Rob) of a Johnny Evers
(port) with an EPDG back. And, there is no doubt that this card is in the
150-only category.
Also, Art M. suggested more cards (Mullin-horiz and Schaefer-Det) and I am
in full agreement with him. Perhaps, we should conduct another survey on
these and possibly a few more.
Schaefer, for example, was traded to Washington in Aug 1909; therefore, the
T206 designers would not have extended his first card into the 350-Series.
And, its interesting that Schaefer re-appears later in the 460-only Series
(with Washington).
Hi Ted,
Art and I have been "chatting" and keeping track of rare backs together for quite some time. We both feel there are many cards in all series that are probably not available with all of the "possible" combinations which should be available.
I'm not sure why you think I'm disagreeing with your conclusions, as I agree with most of them. My major concern is that we still don't have a "known" 150 only card with a ELPD or Old Mill back. Evers Blue Sky is the 150 only, not the portrait, which is availabe in both the 150 and 350 series. In fact I have an ELPD Evers Portrait.
I'm enjoying these threads more than anyone on the board, because I study these cards whenever I have any free time.
Art is the reliable source who has listed Lindaman as being seen with a 350 Piedmont back, but he may have made a mistake, or he may not remember. I'm sure he will chime in shortly.
Trying to figure out the patterns of distribution on these cards has been my passion for years and I'm excited so many others are interested in finding out which cards are really "available" with which backs.
Talk to you soon Brian
PS My Mullin comment to Art had nothing to do with the Horizontal in the thread, but an Orange background Portrait I sent him for his Birthday and his Tiger collection.
You caught me in an error....Evers (Blue sky) is indeed the 150-only card.
I always held the idea that any picture of a Chicago (NL) player with "CUBS"
on their uniform as a 150-only card. And, of course Evers (portrait) depicts
this. Sorry, I got carried away. And, you are right we both think the same
regarding the T206's.
OK....I will agree, until we arrive at a more definitive understanding as to
which additional cards can be classified as "150-only". We haven't seen an
EPDG on the known 11 - "150-only" cards....Geo. Browne....M. Brown(Cubs)....
Burch (bat)....Donlin (fldg)....Evers (blue sky)....Pattee....Pelty (horiz)
Powers....Reulbach (Cubs)....Honus Wagner....Sherry Magie (only with P150).
Incidently, did you ever get a chance to check-out your Magee (port) cards to
see if you have a Piedmont 150 in Vg-Ex (or better) condition for me ?
Hi Ted,
I think the 6 possible 150 only cards might be part of a small group of cards that were first released in the 150 series with Piedmont, Sweet Cap, Hindu and Sovereign, and the released again in what I will call the first "assorted" series. I believe this first "assorted series" consisted of Old Mill and ELPD brands and was released shortly after the 150 series and before the initial 350 series release. I believe many of these cards that are "supposed" to be available in the 350 series were either not included at all or they were short printed due to there earlier release in the 150 and assorted series. This would explain the relative scarcity of Lundgren, Mullin, etc in the 350 series.
I did check on the Portrait of Magee and I was mistaken, the only Magee Portrait I have with a Piedmont back is my Magie error, and he's not for sale. Keep the info coming guys. Be well Brian
Here we go again, now that we found there are a few Sovereign 150 in the 150 only cards.
Where are all the OLD MILL 150 series only cards? I have been half heartly trying to get all the diiferent backs for the G.Browne Cubs & have never seen Old Mill or EPDG.
Lee
This message has been edited by bowlingshoeguy on Jun 7, 2006 2:54 PM
I have duly noted the prior posting of a Lundgren (Cubs) with a
P350 back in the Table. It bothers me, however, that the scan of
this card has vanished.
I will add yours to the tabulation when I update the tally this PM.
Can you please show us your Lundgren (front & back) ?
I'm wondering about the sampling.
Looks like around 25 examples per card, with a total of 'round 170.
I'm grateful for the responses from folks but wonder what sort of sample we need to get.
In other words, any 'guesses' out there regarding how many of these particular cards may be out there, so we can envision what the tabulations may actually be saying. I would assume that this
board's collectors hold many, if not most, of the cards. What do you think?
again, a great ride!!
best,
herbivore
This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 7, 2006 5:46 PM This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 7, 2006 5:45 PM
350/460 regular print (1.2% of backs seen): Berger, M. Brown (Chicago on Shirt), Doyle (With Bat), Jennings (One Hand), Jennings (Both Hands), Johnson (Pitching), Joss (Pitching), Lajoie (With Bat), Lake (No Ball), H. McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago), Mullin (With Bat), Overall (Hand Face High), Steinfeldt (With Bat), Street (Catching), Tinker (Bat Off), D. White (Pitching), Wilhelm (With Bat), Willis (Throwing)
460-only (0.6% of backs seen): Bell (Follow Through), Bridwell (With Cap), Camnitz (Arms at Side), Chance (Batting), Frill, Gandil, Murray (Portrait)
2. BACKS CONFIRMED ON POTENTIAL 150-ONLY SUBJECT ADDITIONS:
It seems from earlier posts that Lundgren (Chicago) is a 150/350 series card. It would be great to see scans of any OTHER of the seven potential 150-only subjects identified above with a 350 back so they could be definitively ruled-out as 150-only subjects.
I have never seen any confirmed or potential 150-only subject with an OLD MILL back. It would be great to see scans of any confirmed or potential 150-only subject with OLD MILL--if indeed any exist.
Hi SCOT,
You need to add the following:
ELPD
150/350:
Bates, Chesbro, Crawford, Delehanty, Hemphill,Johnson Port, Jones st. Louis,Kling, Lindaman, Lumley, Marquard, Mathewson white cap, Mullin hor, Niles, O'Leary, Powell Hor, Scheli cat, Spade, Weimer.
Sorry, heading to CA. in the am and don't have time to finish, but will do so when I retrurn next thursday. Be well Brian
PS I have a Ewing Hindu, and I have seen Hindu's of Schulte and Lundgren.
This message has been edited by BRIANKW on Jun 7, 2006 7:55 PM
Scot,
Add these EPDG to your confirmed list. Can send scans if you need them
1.Bresnahan (bat)
2.Burchell
3.Chesbro
4.J. Collins
5.Evans
6.Kleinow (catch)
7.Krause (portrait)
8.Lattimore
9.Lumley
10.Milligan
11.Shannon
12.Weimer
13.Wiltse (pitch)
all the others I have you have on your list
Scot, your ebay survey resulting in your contention that the epdg back appears on roughly 1% of T 206's appears to be in line with the data presented by board members on this
thread. many,many thanks.
the ole epdg turned out surprisingly rare to many of us.
Sufficient Sampling question of Potential 150-only
June 8 2006, 11:21 AM
Barry A
Your observation is a valid one and I do not understand why we have not
received a larger number of responses. I know of at least a dozen more
Forum members that could contribute....but have not.
As of now, we have 170+ card inputs. If you think about this, it's not really
too bad, and some "statistical genius" would probably tell us that it is quite
a representative sample. Consider this.....professional polls typically sample
just 1000 people and tell us that their poll is representative of a nation
of 300,000 people.....that has always "boggled" my mind.
Barry....I don't know how to increase our sample....other than scanning Ebay
and other sites for more data. Personally, I enjoy the personal responses we
have received on this Thread.
I should note that I have Brashear, Marquard (Hands at Side) and J. White with EPDG in my own collection. None of these three subjects showed up on eBay when I was taking my survey. My guess is that a sufficient sample (maybe 100,000 or so) would reveal most T206 subjects with EPDG--southern leaguers and ultrararities excepted. So Ted, when can we expect you to complete your T206 set minus southern leaguers and ultrararities with EPDG backs? Scot
I think you can extrapolate the ratios in another way. Take the cards with a tons of submissions to SGC (HOFs) and measure the ratios of EPDG in those. It won't be perfect but a 200-300 card sample of a single player card may have less bias than a sample of a 400 card T206 collection.
I'd take a look at the data myself, but I won't get to it until the weekend.
i agree. it has been a great time seeing what backs the
board members have as well as seeing how many t206's they
have. i was quite surprised at times. also great fun doing the 'detective' work and
collaborative work.
and learning some new data along the way.
i'm interested in seeing sagard's statistical work,
if he gets a chance.
many thanks,
barry
This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 8, 2006 2:31 PM
Even if the stats are right, you won't find me thinking EPDG backs are particularly rare. They may not be as easy to find as Polar Bear backs or even Sovereign Backs, but they're much easier to find than most of the other backs that T206 collectors consider to be rare. The fact that I currently own three EPDG through nothing but dumb luck, but in almost ten years of T206 collecting have never owned a Carolina Brights, Broadleaf, Drum, Uzit or Lenox backed card is telling...
T206Collector
I don't think we are stating that EPDG backs are rare (a relative term).
Barry Arnold started with the proposition that this back is somewhat tougher
than has been previously thought.
And, the data we have received here bears this out. In fact your 3 EPDG cards
out of 520 different cards in your set is very representative of our findings.
And, especially since you are saying the 3 you have acquired are just due to
"dumb luck".
Incidently, would you like to inform us of the backs in your set for our Secondary
survey regarding the 9 potential "150-only" cards. Refer to the above Table for
these players and their identifying variation.
I have to complete my "all Piedmont" set first and I still need 114 (P350) cards
to attain the "magic" 518 total. I have sort of hit a "bamboo wall" recently in
trying to acquire the remaining cards (some Stars, Major Leaguers. and mostly
Minor Lgers). Either not available or mainly too, too expensive. I am used to
paying < $40 a common. Nowadays, T206 in the $20-40 price range are a little
too "brutal" for my liking (at least on ebay).
So, I do not think I will be taking you up on starting an "all EPDG" set any
time too soon. I will leave that up to some younger guy to try.
It's late and I've just spent a little over an hour on this thread and I've only gotten through June 5. Dan Koochin's posting of 6-4-06 is curious. I do not remember his email. I'm going to go through my notes and lists and post some stuff on this thread.
Sorry guy, I had already tabulated your inputs.
Anyhow, if I understand you correctly, you are the perfect collector of T206's
for this survey, because the backs of your 520 cards are incidental to you; and
therefore, represent a truer random distribution than most.
Also, could you check-out the backs your Mullin (horiz.) & Schaefer (Detroit)
and post them......Thanks much.
As of today, there are no reported "350" backs on Ewing....Jones....Lindaman....
and, only two on Lundgren. However, this survey (177 cards to date) does not
in anyway discount possible "350" backs on the above 3 players.
But, let's consider the 4 above players' Major League history......
Ewing (Cinc).....traded from Cinc. to Phila (NL) Jan. 1910
Tom Jones (St Louis).....traded from St Louis to Detroit on Aug 20, 1909
Lindaman (Bost).....MLB career ended in 1909 (pitched in 15 games)
Lundgren (Cubs).....MLB career ended in 1909 (pitched only in 2 games)
The point I'm trying to make is, as these 4 players' MLB careers changed in 1909,
there is a real good probabilty that the T206 designers decided not to extend
3 of them into their subsequent 350 Series (issued in 1910)....The year 1909,
of course, is critical to this debate, since that was the year the 150 Series was
first issued.
And, regarding Lundgren, a "350" back of him I would argue is very, very rare.
Furthermore, all the EPDG backs have only shown up with these 4 players.
Not a single reported EPDG back for Ames....Doyle....Schulte; therefore, at
this point are we to conclude that these three are indeed "150-only" cards ?
And, I arrive at this conclusion since some have said that "150-only" T206
cards and EPDG backs are mutually exclusive.
This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 10, 2006 11:50 AM
and they did not seem particularly hard for me to track down - although getting the rest of the Philadelphia players -- may be tougher now, in light of this thread
From an advertising standpoint, only Piedmont, SC
and Sovereign are mentioned in the first printing of T206.
Hindu comes later. My personal speculation is that EPDG
staring issuing late September/early October 1909. By that
time Hindu is issuing 350 series cards. To clarify, I
speculate EPDG is also 'a 350 series issue'. Doesn't
mean EPDG doesn't have 150 series subjects, just means
it was issued after the 'first' 150 series print run.
The '9' 150 series shortprints shouldn't have EPDG backs.
The others you are tabulating card backs for will have EPDG backs, I'm not surprised. Ted, Scott I'm unclear why its necessary to group these in with the other 9 that do not feature EPDG backs.
Ted , Scott
Are you saying EPDG was a 150 series brand issued right
from the start (speculative June /July?)and somehow didn't
issue the '9' shortprints, nor advertise their product. Or are
we agreeing they were issued later, roughly late fall 1909?
Ted,
Your latest recap shows a T206 Schaefer, Detroit with Hindu.
Where did this come from? I would be interested in this card for my Detroit collection!
Art
I bought this today at a card show for $45. I have NO idea about rarity or value since I've never bought one before. The dude that sold it to me said he didn't know anything about these boxes, but said it came as part of a t206 collection he bought awhile back. The flip-lid is still there, but the binding is loosely attached. Did I get a good deal?
I went back and checked my notes and I mis-read my handwriting.In my notes I
had "scratched" down Schulte/HINDU and when I was ready to input the new data
it looked like Schaefer (instead of Schulte). It has been corrected on the Table.
i note your 15 epdg and am wondering how that fits into your total of t206's.
since i know already you are one of the princes of back collecting, i bet that your percentage of epdg's will be quite a bit higher than the rest of the crowd.
thanks for the help.
and thanks again for the AB and BL I purchased from you yesterday!
best,
barry
P.s.
tom, i knew that you had said something about your total before on this
thread---and i found it (entry 16).
total of about 500.
i was right that you have more epdg's than most (percentage-wise).
thanks for the help.
This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 10, 2006 9:13 PM
James,
Yes, that is the correct EPDG box type that once held T206 cards. Does this have the factory 17 stamp on the bottom?
The $45 buying price seems like a pretty good deal. Congrats.
Thanks for listing your info. and it will tabulated along with newly
received data via emails to me by "readers" of our Forum.
I do not refer to people who monitor this Forum ( but for whatever
reasons, choose not to post)......as "lurkers". This term connotes
someone who is "furtive", or "up to no good". I have met quite a few
"readers" of this Forum at the Philly Show; and believe me, they are
very interesting collectors who really enjoy this Forum.
Hi Scot and Bill,
I don't think Art was suggesting that Mullin Hor was a 150 only card, but was asking if anyone had seen a Sweet Cap 350. I have a Piedmont 350, and have seen several , but 0 Sweet Cap 350's. Be well Brian
I fully understood Art M's initial question and I wanted to prove (to at least
myself) a pattern that I noticed was emerging. And, that is why I deliberately
added Mullin and Schaefer to round out this survey (even though I was aware of
them being also 350 cards, since I read it in Scot Reader's book). And, sure
enough the pattern that I am alluding to, is that an occasional "350" back will
surface. But, it isn't just any 350 back, but exclusively a PIEDMONT 350 back.
Lundgren and Schaefer have proven this and we could continue this survey to
infinity and I predict that no other "350-type" back (Sw Cap, Sov, etc.) will
be discovered. My theory is that PIEDMONT was always the 1st issued brand.
And when the T206 designers transitioned into the 350 Series (circa 1910),
they quickly realized Lundgren was no longer in the Major Lgs. and Schaefer had
been traded to Washington; therefore, they stopped printing them and only a few
PIEDMONT 350's got into circulation. This is exactly the same "scenerio" that occurred
with the Magie card at the start of the 150-Series (Magie exists only as a P150).
Now, regarding the other 6 cards (Ames, Doyle, Ewing, Jones, Lindaman, & Schulte),
can we extrapolate that they too will eventually surface with PIEDMONT 350 backs
in this survey......I am not too certain about that happening. We have quite a
formidable T206 resource to draw from in this Forum and I would have thought
more 350 backs would be evident by now ? ?
All you T206 guys, let's see your inputs.....we are still far away from "infinity".
this PRIMACY OF PIEDMONT theorizing is absolutely fascinating.
seeing the development of t206's from their inception with renewed clarity
(even at the theorizing stage with the beginnings of corroborations) is mesmerizing---at least for us 'nuts', as you say.
great work, Ted et al.
a great ride! and many,many thanks for the e-mail response,Ted!
I like your "Primacy of Piedmont" theory a lot--but I'm not sure Schaefer (Detroit) exemplifies it. My survey data show one instance of Schaefer (Detroit) with Sweet Caporal 350 Factory 30. This could be a mistake--either a recording error on my part or the result of an ebay seller having scanned the wrong back. But it's there in my data nonetheless.
Here is the list of 150/350 subjects that my survey data show with a Piedmont 350 back but no other 350 back:
Chance (Red), Clarke (Cleveland), Dahlen (Boston), Delahanty (Washington), Durham, Ganley, Herzog (New York), Karger, Kleinow (Batting), Lumley, Matty (Portrait), Mullin (Throwing), Stone and Wiltse (No Cap). (You can add Lundgren (Chicago) to this list based on what we have learned on this thread about his availability with Piedmont 350).
Many, but not all, of these players switched teams during the 1909 season or the off-season that followed. More particularly, at least Dahlen, Delahanty, Durham, Ganley, Herzog, Karger, Kleinow and Lundgren switched teams. (Durham and Lundgren were sent down to the minors).
I'd like to see if anybody has any of the above 14 or 15 subjects with a Sovereign 350 or Sweet Caporal 350 back. It would be great if Chance, Clarke, Lumley, Matty, Stone and Wiltse were confirmed with Sweet Caporal 350 or Sovereign 350 and the others were not. That would advance your theory a long way in my view.
Scot
This message has been edited by sreader3 on Jun 12, 2006 3:38 PM This message has been edited by sreader3 on Jun 12, 2006 3:30 PM This message has been edited by sreader3 on Jun 12, 2006 3:28 PM This message has been edited by sreader3 on Jun 12, 2006 3:27 PM This message has been edited by sreader3 on Jun 12, 2006 3:25 PM This message has been edited by sreader3 on Jun 12, 2006 3:25 PM This message has been edited by sreader3 on Jun 12, 2006 3:24 PM This message has been edited by sreader3 on Jun 12, 2006 3:23 PM
I have some 350 backs other than Piedmont on cards that you just listed. Here is what I have:
Chance Red Sovereign 150
Clarke Cleveland Sovereign 150, SC 150 Fac. 649
Dahlen Boston Piedmont 150
Delehanty Washington El Principe De Gales
Durham Piedmont 150
Ganley SC 150 Fac. 30
Herzog New York SC 350 Fac. 30
Karger Piedmont 150
Kleinow NY Batting Sovereign 350
Lumley SC 350 Fac. 25
Mathewson Portrait Piedmont 150
Mullin Throwing Piedmont 150
Stone Sovereign 150
Wiltse Portrait No Cap Sovereign 350
my wiltse(no cap) is a Hindu---otherwise, i have 150's. chance red sc150;
clarke cleveland p 150;delehanty washington p150;ganley sc 150; karger p150;
kleinow batting p150; lumley p150;wiltse (no cap) Hindu brown
great research question, Scot.
best,
barry
This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 12, 2006 4:35 PM
I'd like to see if anybody has any of the above 14 or 15 subjects with a Sovereign 350 or Sweet Caporal 350 back. It would be great if Chance, Clarke, Lumley, Matty, Stone and Wiltse were confirmed with Sweet Caporal 350 or Sovereign 350 and the others were not. That would advance your theory a long way in my view.
Hi Scot
I have the following cards
Matty portrait SC 350 Factory 30
Chance red SC 350 Factory 25
I am not sure that players like Dahlen might prove anything, since he
was in a Boston (AL) uniform till 1910.....well within the 350 Series
time frame. So I would expect this first Dahlen card to have the full
complement of Tobacco backs. Is this a fair assumption ?
Anyhow, here are all my backs of the 15 cards you noted......
Ted,
Dahlen left Boston to become the manager of Brooklyn after the 1909 season and before the 1910 season. So I think his example may be relevant to your "Primacy of Piedmont" theory (as the good professor has dubbed it). Looks like many, but not all, of the 14 or 15 have been ruled-out as Piedmont 350 only. Let's do a tally after a day or so more of contributions.
Scot
I've gone back and referred to all my notes in putting together my 3 sets
of T206's. And, from your list of 14 cards (except Lundgren) I have noted
that Durham and Ganley were tougher to find than most 150 Series cards
in the set.
So, I'll go "out on the limb" and suggest that only these two will conform
to my "Piedmont theory" (as so far Lundgren appears to be one). Let me
clarify....Durham and Ganley can be found with P150, SC150, Sov150 and
Hindu backs. As a 350 Series card, I say they exist only as a Piedmont 350.
And, therefore we can expect these two also with EPDG backs.
Dahlen (Boston) has never been tough to find according to my notes. So, I
I will not go "out on a limb" for him.
And, Scot, I am sure there are some guys out there already searching thru
their T206 cards ready to prove me wrong.....it's a great hobby, especially
when we are talking T206's.
Dan,
Purported Schulte (Front Views) with Sweet Cap 350 have shown up on ebay a couple of times in the last few years. Turns out that each time the seller put up the wrong back scan or improperly described the back--which was 150 in each case. I have heard other rumblings of Schulte with Sweet Cap 350, but never confirmed. I would love to actually SEE one in a PSA or SGC holder to put this issue to rest. Also, it is interesting that I have never heard any rumors of Schulte (Front View) with a Piedmont 350 back--a more common back than the Sweet Cap 350.
Scot
This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 21, 2006 4:01 PM This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 17, 2006 8:08 PM This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 13, 2006 3:50 PM This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 13, 2006 10:36 AM
Of the 14-15 additional cards I have only 2 in my collection of 160 or so T-206's.
Karger Piedmont 150
Kleinow Batting piedmont 150
On another note, this thread has crystalized a lot about what I've learned about back rarities in assorted publications, including Scot's.
Thanks guys for rolling out the resources.
This is now my set of choice, after many years of wandering. The intricacies are fascinating, the mystery intriguing, and the fun is endless!
RayB
Always looking for presentable PSA 1,2,3's that I need for my humble set.
Hi Ted,
Thanks for the spreadsheet. I recently owned and sold a Ganley Piedmont 350. I bought it SPECIFICALLY because it had a 350 back. You can add "1" to Ganley/Piedmont 350.
Thanks,
Scot
[/IMG]