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Since reading Scot Reader's work, I have found myself even more preoccupied with
the backs of my 206's. Tonight while thumbing through nearly 400 different 206's, I noted scores of piedmonts,sweet caporals; several
polar bears;15 or so Old Mill's (no browns);10 or so sovereign's; 10 or so
Tolstoi's; a handful of american beauty's 350,460; and a handful or so of
Cycle's 350 and 460; a handful of Hindu browns; one carolina brights; and
just 2 EPDG's.
Having just a couple of EPDG's surprised me a bit.
Any other folks have this experience?!
I made a conscious effort to get the Hindu's,Beauty's, and Brights.
Not so for the rest.
many thanks for the help
barry
This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 2, 2006 11:49 PM
Always have heard the back is not one of the rare ones but I certainly agree with you Barry. They don't get much respect pricewise either though. I only have 1!
As you know, Perfessor, I'm rather conscious of backs myself and was similarly surprised to find I have just three EPDG's out of my current 179 T206's. The breakdown:
MANY thanks.
i wonder what this means about EPDG's.
steve, i notice that you have quite a few of some of the
rarer backs----is it because you made a conscious effort to
get these, and not so much the EPDG's.
even so, i wonder if we need to reevaluate the rarity of
EPDG.
by the way, buddy, Willetts brought an sgc 50---found
it on the sgc website today!!!
best
barry
p.s. you're right Matthew! it is the Lindaman i got from you ages ago!
This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 3, 2006 12:42 AM This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 3, 2006 12:19 AM
Anyway, I think EPDG backs are as difficult as our numbers suggest. However, I guess I haven't been as willing to pay a premium for them as I have for, say, AB or Hindu backs. I might have to change that thinking.
Out of a collection of about 30, which includes 1 brown Hindu, 2 Cycles, a Tolstoi, 3-4 Polar Bears, and a pile of Sweet Caps and Piedmonts, I have one EPDG -- of Vive Lindaman.
For the sake of this "survey" this might skew your numbers a bit, though, as I was actually seeking out the back to get an example for my collection.
I will follow up Richard's post with another tough T206 in the 150-only Series
and mine is Carl Lundgren (Cubs) with an EPDG back. It is a rare combination
to find the 10, or so, cards in this set that only exist in the 150 Series with
backs other than the usual Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, or Sovereign ones.
And, I surveyed my 600+ T206's and found only one other EPDG back and it is
the Rucker (portrait). So, here is a sample more consistent with yours.
The remaining tougher backs (BroadLeaf, Carolina Brights, Drum, Hindu, Lenox,
and Uzit) in my current collection outnumber the EPDG. But, that's because
I make an extra effort to acquire them: whereas, I do not regarding the EPDG.
Barry, thanx for bringing up this subject, as I always thought the EPDG backs
do not get their due respect in the T206 set.
Out of my 520 or so I have 4. I did not go out of my way to buy any, but I know when I made an effort buy them I they commanded a small premium. I always thought they were underrated on the toughness list. Scott Reader has they the most definitive data that is not skewed by collecting habits.
There was an earlier thread about whetther this board can alter the prices realized, well a thread like this will definately make the prices for EPDG go up.
I've always thought EPDG were a lot tougher also-- in my near-set of 518, I have 3. I tried to get one of each back, but otherwise I neither sought out not avoided unusual backs.
Full back breakdown:
Drum 0
Uzit 0
Lenox 1
Carolina Bright 1
Broadleaf 1
Hindu (red) 1
American Beauty 1
Hindu (brown) 2
EPDG 3
Cycle 6
Sovereign 6
Tolstoi 7
Polar Bear 14
Old Mill 21 (18 are Southern Leaguers)
Sweet Cap 191
Piedmont 263
like most of you...i have not really sought out or avoided this back...i have 1 for my backs type collection out of 100 or so t206's. it's a rudolph, toronto.
Over the last several years I have made a concerted efftort to pick up as many difficult backs as possible including EPDG backs (Out of about 500 I have: 15 EPDG, 17 Tolstoi, 103 Hindu's, 52 AB, 69 Cycles, 18 CB, 16 BL's), and I have found that they have been twice as difficult to collect as the AB or Hindu, but with that being said people tend to sell the more visible backs. Personally I think this back deserves a higher place on the difficulty list, but perhaps some people have been hoarding them. Hopefully this thread does not increase the value, so I can continue to collect them at a reasonable price. Just my two cents.
I have an EPDG Ty Cobb red portrait, and Bob Rhoades
right arm out. I was surprised that Ted Zanidakis mentioned
he has a Lundgren Cubs - I've never seen a 150 series
shortprint with an El Principe De Gales back and I've
been collecting T206 since 1980.
Would like to know if any other collectors have the difficult 9 shortprints with EPDG backs listed below.
Browne(Chi),Burch (Bat),Donlin (Fielding),Evers (Blue),Lundgren (Chi),Pattee,Pelty,Reulbach (Glove),
and Powers.
In my collection of about 250 or so T206's, I have six with an EPDG back. Like many other collectors they have not been a priority, more incidental once I got one of them:
Jennings - both hands
Evers - port
Congalton
Oldring
Bliss
Zimmerman
American Beauty 194
Broadleaf 22
Carolina Brights 43
Drum 7
ELPD 33
Hindu 125
Lenox 10
Red Hindu 7
Pied 42's 28
Uzit 6
Tolstoi 16
I focus on all of the tough backs, but especially Hindu Slers and Carolina Brights. ELPD and Tolstoi's are not in my focus group, but they are tougher than people think.
Be well Brian
I'll join the chorus.
Out of my 500 or so T206s, I probably have no more than 6-10 EPDG backs. I'll look through them later and see how many.
But according to my records, so far this year ~115 EPDG backs have been sold on eBay.
Over the same period, there have been about twice that many Old Mills (not counting the Southern Leaguer version) and about four times that many Polar Bears.
On the other hand, there have been (many) fewer Tolstoi, Cycle, American Beauty, and Hindu backs than the EPDGs.
I was surprised when I looked at the totals. I too would have thought they were tougher to find -- tougher than American Beauty anyway.
Brian, I don't know which is more impressive, 125 Hindus or 28 Factory 42s. Wow.
Scot Reader was surprised, too, when I informed him of my Lundgren (Cubs) with
an EPDG back.
Also, I have discussed with Scot that I have never observed Vive Lindaman with
a 350 Subjects back (and since 1981 I have seen thousands of T206 cards). This
card is probably the 10th SP in the 150-only Series.
And, it is interesting that Richard in his above post mentions he has a Lindaman
with an EPDG back.
I acquired my Lundgren (Cubs) with the EPDG back in 1984 when I was working on
my 1st T206 set and was trying to also acquire all the 15 basic Tobacco backs.
And, although I have had quite a number of Lundgren (Cubs) cards since, I have
never seen another with an EPDG back.
So, I have a question for you guys out there on this great Forum....check-out your
Vive Lindaman cards....does anyone have this card with a 350 Subjects back ?
What a wealth of information.
Many,many thanks.
It does look like the data is pointing to more of a rarity for EPDG than
any of us suspected or expected.
Now i do wonder just what this means?
Have collectors not held it in high regard, for some reason?
Did the folks who bought these initially in the early part of the 20th century put them in their bicycle spokes (or whatever they had) like a lot
of my buddies did with their 'dalrymples' in the late 50's and early 60's.
Were fewer produced than we might have thought?
Are folks just keeping them, because we collectors don't want to pay any sort
of premium for them?
Admittedly, i realize these are no red hindu's---but now we know they are sure no commons either.
by the way, my lindaman is an EPDG, TRex.
also many thanks to the back collectors whose collections were even more
phenomenal than i had anticipated!!!! Congrats
barry
This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 3, 2006 3:52 PM
Am I confused on the Lundgren? I have never seen it listed as a 150 only card. Although mine is a Pied 150, I believe that I have sold a Piedmont 350. I still have a scan of the front of the card in a SGC holder, it is dated 1910 Piedmont. From what I can tell SGC lists the 150 series 1909, the 350 series 1910, and the 460 series 1911.
Lindaman is one of seven 150-only candidates beyond the ones everybody knows about. Others include Doyle (Throwing), Ewing, Lundgren (Chicago), Schulte (Front View) and two others I can't think of right now. I wrote about these seven possible 150-only additions in my manuscript and nobody has yet indictated to me that they have any of them in 350--which makes me think these seven are indeed 150-only. Also, as Ted rightly notes, Lundgren (Chicago) seems to only be possible with Piedmont 150 and EPDG, e.g. not possible with any Sweet Caporal back. Scot
If you had a Lundgren (Cubs) with a 350 back, you would have a T206 so unique
it would compare with the Plank (Piedmont 150) of which there is only one known.
I have seen where SGC has been inconsistent with their label dates; therefore, I
would caution using this as indication of card's back.
Are you possibly thinking of Lundgren's Kansas City card in the 350 Series ?
All the T206 publications (Heitman, Peavey, and Reader) agree the Lundgren (Cubs)
card exists only in the 150 Series.
Incidently, your Lindaman (Hindu) is really rare card.
I use to keep really good records of all my sales on ebay but the last couple of years I have not. maybe it's time to start again. I looked thru about 50 of my SGC T206s and they were as noted earlier, so that is my assumption.
I purchased the Lindaman just cause I needed it and paid about $25, a little premium for the HINDU.
Lee's right. Here's my Lundgren Chicago with a Piedmont 350 back.
By the way, Joe P. (who used to post here) wrote that he has a schulte front view with a 350 back as well. Search for "schulte front view" and you'll find the thread.
Robert
This message has been edited by caramelcard on Jun 3, 2006 6:38 PM This message has been edited by caramelcard on Jun 3, 2006 6:37 PM
Of the 250 or so SGC graded T206 cards I own, three of them are EPDG. I have never put any effort into acquiring a card because of its back, except in two cases -- where I picked up a Hindu Joss Portrait and a nice Cycle Back. Otherwise, I have only been interested in fronts. I may have a couple more in my 270 or so ungraded T206 cards...
I have over 500 T206 and 22 with EPDG backs. HOFers and commons. A couple low grade examples in GAI holders were auctioned off on ebay just a day or so ago.
Out of 510 T-206s, I have 9 EPDG backs (Bresnahan batting, Doughtery fielding, Herzog (NY Nat'l), Jennings yelling, Leach portrait, McAleese, Titus, Weimer, Willetts pitching). That's under 2% of my collection (roughly 1.76%).
My Lindaman and Lundgren Chicago are both Piedmont 150.
My back breakdown:
Piedmont 230 (one is 350-460 fact. 42)
Sweet Cap 138
Sovereign 28
Old Mill 28 (incl SLers)
Polar Bear 23
Tolstoi 16
Amer. Beauty 11
Cycle 10
EPDG 9
Hindu 7 (incl SLers, no red hindus)
Carolina Brights 3
Broadleaf 3
Drum 2 (Konetchy fielding low ball, Pfeister pitching)
Lenox 1 (Marquard pitching)
Uzit 1 (Leach fielding)
I made an effort to collect at least one of each back type. I've bought most of my mid-level back types at common prices (or small premium, say a buck or two in most cases - I'm a low grade collector).
Mike (18colt)
PS: This is not meant to hijack the thread, but speaking of Tolstoi, would anyone know how rare a Tolstoi reverse is in the T-218 set (I know, not baseball, but pre-war)? Thanks.
I have 5 EPDG out of a collection of 649 unique front/back T206. Most were aquired by trade or in lots......... I'd guess that I've bought fewer than a dozen single cards. As a result I'm less weighted in HOF and SL than normal.
From the information above I think its safe to say
Ludgren Chi is not a 150 series only card. That gets
me back to my thoughts that EPDG is a 350 series back.
The other eight 150 series only cards most likely cannot
have the EPDG or Old Mill backs.
Backtofinal4, send me a scan of the cobb signature on the back of your card. I have a handwritten letter and a bank check I can compare the signature to. email MILFORD97@AOL.COM
Hi Barry,
Many of us T206 "Nuts" believe that EPDG and Old Mill's were not distributed in the first series, but shortly thereafter. To date I have never seen any of the 9 "150 series only" cards with an Old Mill or EPDG back. Most show up with Piedmont backs, and most, if not all have been seen with Sovereign, Hindu, and Sweet Cap backs. Hope that helps Brian
many thanks, brian.
do you think this later than the 150's 'grand opening' explains the rarity of
the EPDG?
any explanation for why it has gotten so little
'acclaim' for its rarity?
obviously, it's no lenox or uzit but it sure is rarer than we thought.
thanks for the help, brian.
by the way, i heard you were a tarhill.
even though i've been a floridian for many, many years, i was born in N.C.
and went to Davidson College, so tarhill is in my blood---as well as these
206's.
For accuracy my list of the nine 150 series shortprints
should have read;
Browne(Chi),M. Brown (Cubs), Burch (Bat),Donlin (Fielding),
Evers (Blue),Pattee,Pelty,Powers, Reulbach (Glove).
I've corresponded with collectors who have tried to
do all nine with all the back variations. They cannot
find EPDG or Old Mill, it was reasoned they do not
exist in 150 series. The first brands were Piedmont
Sweet Cap, Sovereign, and Hindu.
I've emailed Bill Heitmann author of the T206 Monster,
some time ago.
He did not confirm the existence of the 9 with EPDG or
Old Mill backs. As I recall, when he checked, his were
Hindu backs.
I was really surprised to hear of a Lundgren (Cubs) with a P350 back. I have
hoarded several of these cards since the early '80s (about a dozen of them).
I have only seen this card with a 150 Subjects back (usually P150) and the
El Principe de Gales one that I have had for over 20 years.
Now, the other player that I have never seen other than a "150" is Vive
Lindaman. And, at least two posters in this Thread have EPDG Lindaman backs
and one an even tougher HINDU back.
You have seen many, many T206's and I ask you.....have you ever seen a "350"
Lindaman ?
Heitman, Peavey and Reader all document that EPDG and HINDU backs were in
the 150-Series. And, I agree with you and Scot that OLD MILL (asst.) backs
were not printed on the original 150-Series cards.
In fact, Scot Reader suggests that the following could also be 150-only cards....
Ames (front)....Doyle (throw)....Ewing....Tom Jones (St. Louis)....Lindaman....
Lundgren (Cubs)....Schulte (Cubs).
Ok, guys check-out your T206's and let's see if we can confirm that these cards
are indeed 150-only....or, do any of you have them with "350" backs ?
I will start....my Ames, Doyle, Ewing, Jones and my 2 - Lindamans have P150
backs. All my Lundgrens have P150 backs, except the one EPDG back. And, I
have 5 - Schulte cards, 4 are P150 and 1 is a SC150.
This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 4, 2006 10:56 PM
Come on guys, we need more inputs....check-out your "magnificent" T206 cards
and let's get some meaningful data to the above question ? ?
If a silly BARRY (Bonds) thread can generate 300+ responses on this Forum,
then why can't we get at least 100+ responses to this BARRY Arnold Thread ?
After all, this is meaningful stuff to us "obsessive" T206 collectors.
So far we have.....
Player.....150....350....EPDG....HINDU
Ames.......16............................2
Doyle.......16............................2
Ewing.......15.................3.........1
Jones.......16.................1..........3
Lindaman..16.................3.........5
Lundgren...18.......1........4.........0
Schulte.....19.................0.........2
Totals......116.......1.......11........15
This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 6, 2006 10:27 PM This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 6, 2006 1:34 PM This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 6, 2006 1:26 PM This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 5, 2006 8:44 PM This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 5, 2006 8:32 PM This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 5, 2006 1:14 PM
My TOm Jones (ST Louis) is EPDG, one of 6 EPDG in my collection of 550+ total cards (the others: Magee with Bat, Hallman, Ganley, Davidson & Burchell). Both my Lundgren Chicago and Lindaman are Piedmont 150.
heck, not sure what ya'll are doing but here's my few types of backs from t206's....if there's more info you need just ask and I will get it this evening....right now I am working (I left the prices I paid....and have acquired them over the last 5-8 yrs)..nothing special
Ray correctly described what is happening in this Thread. We have a sub-set
of Barry's original topic and that is what additional T206's are found only as
150 Subjects cards. There are 9 well-documented cards in this category, and
it has been theorized that, perhaps, there are 7 more.
This came up early in this Thread and as a consequence I've started tabulating
inputs on these 7 cards from Forum members (see above Table). The collective
knowledge and T206 collections represented in this Forum is a tremendous
resource for a survey like this.
I think I probably should have initiated a distinct Thread on this subject, but
we all were having a lot of fun....so this is it.
It's all good...don't think we will break 300 posts like the Bonds Steroid thread but this one is much more oriented towards what this board is all about. No need to reply but if you need any other info from my few cards let me know. It's pretty funny though....since I posted them I have had a few private emails about selling or trading some..... On the T206's I am only collecting the backs, for the most part, but that certainly wasn't my intention of posting. Did ya see what I had to pay for my Uzit in vg-ex? It was in the same group I got one of my AWH E222's in....and had to pay $200 for it..in gd-vg....those days are over I think....regards
I've looked through my T206s, there are about 515 of them...
6 are EPDG. And that surprised me, figured there were about a dozen before I saw this thread, and thought there might only be 2 or 3 after reading but before looking. Saw more Cycles than I recalled, and only saw one Hindu, thought I had 3 or 4 of those.
Are you wanting to know backs of other cards? Which ones, and I'll dig through them again.
Thanks Steve Y., Bill, J Hull, and Drew for your inputs. They have been
tabulated.
J Hull
I entered the 3 cards you have; but, I did not enter the 3 - Jones' that
you noted seeing on ebay since you did not sound too certain. And, since
there are 4 - Jones in the set, 3 of which are typically 350 backs, I cannot
accept them as valid. So far, I have been tabulating cards that are actually
in personal collections. Please understand this.
The present (9 PM) total is 63 - "150 Subjects" (Piedmont, Sweet Caporal)....
1 - Piedmont 350 (Lundgren)......7 - EPDG......4 - HINDU.
Note....Not one Sovereign 150 has been reported....."very interesting".
This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 5, 2006 9:18 PM
couldn't wait to get home to check out things and it's already after 10pm
great work tabulating. it looks like epdg continues to be rarer than we thought and it looks like your cards continue to be 150's!
we still need more of a sampling, don't we?!
Hi Ted,
Going over my set and I found 6 EPDG.
BARGER
CICOTTE
JIMMY COLLINS
HERZOG
PFEFFER
TANNEHILL
and one that was stolen 10yrs ago a nm white cap mathewson. One of my
nicest t-206's
Ames hands at chest sweet cap 150
Doyle pied 150
ewing pied 150
jones pied 150
lindaman pied 150 and hindu
ludgren pied 150
shulte sweet 150
Been out of town for a few days. Great thread. I have
555 T206s and
7 EPDGs
Like some others, when I was going through piles of t206s when piecing my set together I went out of my way to pick up as many different backs as possible. Whenever I found an EPDG of a card that I did not have in vg/ex or better, I bought bought it (given that the price was reasonable). I don't know if this matters, but my set was mostly pieced together by going through dealer inventories, not ebay.
JimB
I was surprised to only find two EPDGs in a group of 475 t206s.
The two I have are Bridwell and Chase blue portrait. I just recently sold two graded EPDGs (Tinker and Bresnahan portrait).
Hi Ted,
I'll have more later, but here are my numbers so far:
1. Ames (front)I have a Hindu
2. Doyle (throw)I have a Hindu
3. Ewing I have a Hindu
4. Tom Jones (St. Louis)I have a Hindu
5. Lindaman I have reports of atleast 1 350, but have not seen a scans yet.
6. Lundgren (Cubs) Have seen 3 EPDG's
7. Schulte (Cubs) Joe P is the only one who claims to have a 350.
Have seen 4 Lindman Hindu's including yours Lee, and 2 Schulte Hindu's.
This Thread is very revealing and I hope Scot Reader is following it.
However, Barry, I have somewhat "hi-jacked" your original intent and I hope
you don't mind. It has become a "Two for One" survey.
Mike T....Ron....Martin N....thank you for your inputs, I will be tabulating
your numbers this AM.
Martin Neal, check your Larry Doyle, it cannot be his "throwing pose"; as there
are no Polar Bear backs in the 150 Series.
JimB and T206Collector....we would appreciate your inputs on these 7 cards of
interest ?
And still.....no SOVEREIGN backs on these "suspicious 7"......this is becoming
very, very interesting and may well lead to a new survey (on a new Thread).
Lee,is that the Lundgren you sold to me off that wannabe(cant think of the name of it) ebay site last year for the hurricane relief?
I dont know offhand how many or who i have with EPDG backs but if the thread is still going on the weekend ill chime in.
BTW,am i the only person who's never written down which specific back each card has? I could tell you the brand but ive never noted which series it is,except with Pied 42's. I went probably 3 years figuring i had all the American Beauty backs but when i actually sat down and looked i only had 1 of the 3 versions and had to buy the other 2 right away.I never noted the backs but figured i had enough AB's to at least have one of each
No problem guy.....and, I do not mean to be "picky".....but, it is important that
you tell me which Tobacco brands your 6 cards are in the 150 Series ?
SGC's pop report lists one 1909 Sovereign back for Lindaman and Tom Jones. There appears to be a few 150 onlys with a single Sov 150 back. It is still tough to read the SGC pop reports if the player has multiple poses.
Thank you Mike T, Ron, Martin N, Brian W and JimB for your inputs.
The total as of 1;30 today is.......
PIEDMONT 150 or SWEET CAPORAL 150 backs = 84
El PRINCIPE de GALES backs = 10
HINDU backs = 14
And, there is one "P350" back which I am beginning to question at this point.
We have examined 108 cards and just 1 - P350 really raises a "flag" in mind.
Sorry, guys but I am very skeptical at this point regarding this one input.
keep it going Ted.
great work.
i love the various tributaries opening up---feels like
discoveries! Lee B.'s on to the 150 sovereign issue on
another thread so it looks like tributaries/discoveries
are abounding!!
These are the backs on the other 7 cards you guys are tracking:
Ames, hands at chest - Piedmont 150 fac 25
Doyle, throwing - Sweet Caporal 150 fac 25
Ewing - Sovereign 150 fac 24
Jones, St Louis - Piedmont 150 fac 25
Lindaman, Boston - Sovereign 150 fac 24
Lundgren, Chicago - Piedmont 150 fac 25
Schulte, Chicago - Piedmont 150 fac 25
Ted:
Just back from a trip. Tomorrow will post some results of my survey data on EPDG and the seven [or six if Lundgren (Chicago) has been confirmed with Piedmont 350] possible 150-only additions.
Scot
This survey regarding the 7 (possible) cards at this point is overwhelmingly
in favor of them being "150-only" candidates.
The single exception of one reported "P350" of a Lundgren (Cubs) is raising
doubts in my mind. Perhaps this card was mistaken for Lundgren (KC) which
of course would be a 350 Series card. Statistically speaking, something just
does not jive here. Call me a "skeptic", but until some more "350" cards are
reported in this survey, I have my doubts.
Also, aren't you surprised by the few (3) reported Sovereign 150 cards in this
group ?
Ames, hands at chest - Piedmont 150 fac 25
Doyle, throwing - Piedmont 150 fac 25
Jones, St Louis - Piedmont 150 fac 25
Lindaman, Boston - Sovereign 150 fac 25
Schaefer Detroit - SC 150 fac 30
Hey guy......I fully agree with you. I am presently working on my 3rd T206
set (3/4 complete) and I know that there are other possible candidates that
fit "150-only" category. However, early in this Thread a comment was made that
certain "150-only cards could not have EPDG backs", so this motivated me to
start this survey (focusing on these particular 7 cards). Anyone else can con-
tinue this on any number of additional T206's suspected of being "150-only".
thanks Art.
i had a feeling with that many epdg's you were going to
have the most t206's of the crowd---and with 1200 you're right up there.
we can still contend that epdg is much rarer than we thought.
i see your point about sov. 150's rarity,too, ted; lee b.'s
thread is corroborative.
and with your data on the 150 only folks, it looks like the
backs world is gaining some very interesting clarity.
Great thread!!!
I have about 580 T206--all collected prior to 1975, with no regard for backs.
There are only 2 EPDG-
Schlei catching and Pfeister seated
Of the seven we're tracking:
Ames--Piedmont 150
L. Doyle throwing--Hindu
Ewing--Piedmont 150
Jones--Piedmont 150
Lindaman--Piedmont 150
Lundgren (3)--all three are Piedmont 150
Schulte--Hindu
Ted,
Two lundgren chicago with piedmont 350s have been reported in this thread.
I'd be happy to send mine to you if you'd like to take a closer look. Let me know.
Chesbro
Cobb Bat off
Flanagan
Groom
Marquard Hands Down (2)
Jennings Portrait
I've always felt the Jennings Portrait was harder to find than other 150 cards. It also seems to be found with EPDG and Piedmont 150, but I haven't seen the card with other backs that I remember in the 150 series.
This message has been edited by caramelcard on Jun 6, 2006 11:32 PM This message has been edited by caramelcard on Jun 6, 2006 11:29 PM
You initiated a great Thread with your EPDG question. Great, because it also
stimulated debate as to the validity of EPDG backs on the 150-only cards in the
set. And, I guess my Lundgren (Cubs) EPDG was the "spark" that ignited it.
Back in the early '80s, another Barry (Sloate) clued me in on the "tough" T206
cards when I first started collecting this set. And, it was then when I acquired
this card and I still recall how excited I was to show it to Barry. Well, 22 years
later, I'm excited again since this card was a factor in the tremendous response
to your Thread.
Many,many thanks, ted.
I feel a bit like frank w. when he says he's worn out(on another thread) because i've done nothing much the last days but check and recheck this site.
But it is a great ride!!!
And it's not over---scot reader et al are promising more information.
Keep tabulatin'!
The jury is still out on these 7 possible "150-only" candidates. But, you
must admit that this survey, so far, is indicating that there is a pretty
high probability that at least 6 of them are in this category.
More significantly, it confirms that these cards were available with EPDG
backs. And, if you are still not convinced on these in the survey, then
please consider the early input on this Thread (by Rob) of a Johnny Evers
(port) with an EPDG back. And, there is no doubt that this card is in the
150-only category.
Also, Art M. suggested more cards (Mullin-horiz and Schaefer-Det) and I am
in full agreement with him. Perhaps, we should conduct another survey on
these and possibly a few more.
Schaefer, for example, was traded to Washington in Aug 1909; therefore, the
T206 designers would not have extended his first card into the 350-Series.
And, its interesting that Schaefer re-appears later in the 460-only Series
(with Washington).
Hi Ted,
Art and I have been "chatting" and keeping track of rare backs together for quite some time. We both feel there are many cards in all series that are probably not available with all of the "possible" combinations which should be available.
I'm not sure why you think I'm disagreeing with your conclusions, as I agree with most of them. My major concern is that we still don't have a "known" 150 only card with a ELPD or Old Mill back. Evers Blue Sky is the 150 only, not the portrait, which is availabe in both the 150 and 350 series. In fact I have an ELPD Evers Portrait.
I'm enjoying these threads more than anyone on the board, because I study these cards whenever I have any free time.
Art is the reliable source who has listed Lindaman as being seen with a 350 Piedmont back, but he may have made a mistake, or he may not remember. I'm sure he will chime in shortly.
Trying to figure out the patterns of distribution on these cards has been my passion for years and I'm excited so many others are interested in finding out which cards are really "available" with which backs.
Talk to you soon Brian
PS My Mullin comment to Art had nothing to do with the Horizontal in the thread, but an Orange background Portrait I sent him for his Birthday and his Tiger collection.
You caught me in an error....Evers (Blue sky) is indeed the 150-only card.
I always held the idea that any picture of a Chicago (NL) player with "CUBS"
on their uniform as a 150-only card. And, of course Evers (portrait) depicts
this. Sorry, I got carried away. And, you are right we both think the same
regarding the T206's.
OK....I will agree, until we arrive at a more definitive understanding as to
which additional cards can be classified as "150-only". We haven't seen an
EPDG on the known 11 - "150-only" cards....Geo. Browne....M. Brown(Cubs)....
Burch (bat)....Donlin (fldg)....Evers (blue sky)....Pattee....Pelty (horiz)
Powers....Reulbach (Cubs)....Honus Wagner....Sherry Magie (only with P150).
Incidently, did you ever get a chance to check-out your Magee (port) cards to
see if you have a Piedmont 150 in Vg-Ex (or better) condition for me ?
Hi Ted,
I think the 6 possible 150 only cards might be part of a small group of cards that were first released in the 150 series with Piedmont, Sweet Cap, Hindu and Sovereign, and the released again in what I will call the first "assorted" series. I believe this first "assorted series" consisted of Old Mill and ELPD brands and was released shortly after the 150 series and before the initial 350 series release. I believe many of these cards that are "supposed" to be available in the 350 series were either not included at all or they were short printed due to there earlier release in the 150 and assorted series. This would explain the relative scarcity of Lundgren, Mullin, etc in the 350 series.
I did check on the Portrait of Magee and I was mistaken, the only Magee Portrait I have with a Piedmont back is my Magie error, and he's not for sale. Keep the info coming guys. Be well Brian
Here we go again, now that we found there are a few Sovereign 150 in the 150 only cards.
Where are all the OLD MILL 150 series only cards? I have been half heartly trying to get all the diiferent backs for the G.Browne Cubs & have never seen Old Mill or EPDG.
Lee
This message has been edited by bowlingshoeguy on Jun 7, 2006 2:54 PM
I have duly noted the prior posting of a Lundgren (Cubs) with a
P350 back in the Table. It bothers me, however, that the scan of
this card has vanished.
I will add yours to the tabulation when I update the tally this PM.
Can you please show us your Lundgren (front & back) ?
I'm wondering about the sampling.
Looks like around 25 examples per card, with a total of 'round 170.
I'm grateful for the responses from folks but wonder what sort of sample we need to get.
In other words, any 'guesses' out there regarding how many of these particular cards may be out there, so we can envision what the tabulations may actually be saying. I would assume that this
board's collectors hold many, if not most, of the cards. What do you think?
again, a great ride!!
best,
herbivore
This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 7, 2006 5:46 PM This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 7, 2006 5:45 PM
350/460 regular print (1.2% of backs seen): Berger, M. Brown (Chicago on Shirt), Doyle (With Bat), Jennings (One Hand), Jennings (Both Hands), Johnson (Pitching), Joss (Pitching), Lajoie (With Bat), Lake (No Ball), H. McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago), Mullin (With Bat), Overall (Hand Face High), Steinfeldt (With Bat), Street (Catching), Tinker (Bat Off), D. White (Pitching), Wilhelm (With Bat), Willis (Throwing)
460-only (0.6% of backs seen): Bell (Follow Through), Bridwell (With Cap), Camnitz (Arms at Side), Chance (Batting), Frill, Gandil, Murray (Portrait)
2. BACKS CONFIRMED ON POTENTIAL 150-ONLY SUBJECT ADDITIONS:
It seems from earlier posts that Lundgren (Chicago) is a 150/350 series card. It would be great to see scans of any OTHER of the seven potential 150-only subjects identified above with a 350 back so they could be definitively ruled-out as 150-only subjects.
I have never seen any confirmed or potential 150-only subject with an OLD MILL back. It would be great to see scans of any confirmed or potential 150-only subject with OLD MILL--if indeed any exist.
Hi SCOT,
You need to add the following:
ELPD
150/350:
Bates, Chesbro, Crawford, Delehanty, Hemphill,Johnson Port, Jones st. Louis,Kling, Lindaman, Lumley, Marquard, Mathewson white cap, Mullin hor, Niles, O'Leary, Powell Hor, Scheli cat, Spade, Weimer.
Sorry, heading to CA. in the am and don't have time to finish, but will do so when I retrurn next thursday. Be well Brian
PS I have a Ewing Hindu, and I have seen Hindu's of Schulte and Lundgren.
This message has been edited by BRIANKW on Jun 7, 2006 7:55 PM
Scot,
Add these EPDG to your confirmed list. Can send scans if you need them
1.Bresnahan (bat)
2.Burchell
3.Chesbro
4.J. Collins
5.Evans
6.Kleinow (catch)
7.Krause (portrait)
8.Lattimore
9.Lumley
10.Milligan
11.Shannon
12.Weimer
13.Wiltse (pitch)
all the others I have you have on your list
Scot, your ebay survey resulting in your contention that the epdg back appears on roughly 1% of T 206's appears to be in line with the data presented by board members on this
thread. many,many thanks.
the ole epdg turned out surprisingly rare to many of us.
Sufficient Sampling question of Potential 150-only
June 8 2006, 11:21 AM
Barry A
Your observation is a valid one and I do not understand why we have not
received a larger number of responses. I know of at least a dozen more
Forum members that could contribute....but have not.
As of now, we have 170+ card inputs. If you think about this, it's not really
too bad, and some "statistical genius" would probably tell us that it is quite
a representative sample. Consider this.....professional polls typically sample
just 1000 people and tell us that their poll is representative of a nation
of 300,000 people.....that has always "boggled" my mind.
Barry....I don't know how to increase our sample....other than scanning Ebay
and other sites for more data. Personally, I enjoy the personal responses we
have received on this Thread.
I should note that I have Brashear, Marquard (Hands at Side) and J. White with EPDG in my own collection. None of these three subjects showed up on eBay when I was taking my survey. My guess is that a sufficient sample (maybe 100,000 or so) would reveal most T206 subjects with EPDG--southern leaguers and ultrararities excepted. So Ted, when can we expect you to complete your T206 set minus southern leaguers and ultrararities with EPDG backs? Scot
I think you can extrapolate the ratios in another way. Take the cards with a tons of submissions to SGC (HOFs) and measure the ratios of EPDG in those. It won't be perfect but a 200-300 card sample of a single player card may have less bias than a sample of a 400 card T206 collection.
I'd take a look at the data myself, but I won't get to it until the weekend.
i agree. it has been a great time seeing what backs the
board members have as well as seeing how many t206's they
have. i was quite surprised at times. also great fun doing the 'detective' work and
collaborative work.
and learning some new data along the way.
i'm interested in seeing sagard's statistical work,
if he gets a chance.
many thanks,
barry
This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 8, 2006 2:31 PM
Even if the stats are right, you won't find me thinking EPDG backs are particularly rare. They may not be as easy to find as Polar Bear backs or even Sovereign Backs, but they're much easier to find than most of the other backs that T206 collectors consider to be rare. The fact that I currently own three EPDG through nothing but dumb luck, but in almost ten years of T206 collecting have never owned a Carolina Brights, Broadleaf, Drum, Uzit or Lenox backed card is telling...
T206Collector
I don't think we are stating that EPDG backs are rare (a relative term).
Barry Arnold started with the proposition that this back is somewhat tougher
than has been previously thought.
And, the data we have received here bears this out. In fact your 3 EPDG cards
out of 520 different cards in your set is very representative of our findings.
And, especially since you are saying the 3 you have acquired are just due to
"dumb luck".
Incidently, would you like to inform us of the backs in your set for our Secondary
survey regarding the 9 potential "150-only" cards. Refer to the above Table for
these players and their identifying variation.
I have to complete my "all Piedmont" set first and I still need 114 (P350) cards
to attain the "magic" 518 total. I have sort of hit a "bamboo wall" recently in
trying to acquire the remaining cards (some Stars, Major Leaguers. and mostly
Minor Lgers). Either not available or mainly too, too expensive. I am used to
paying < $40 a common. Nowadays, T206 in the $20-40 price range are a little
too "brutal" for my liking (at least on ebay).
So, I do not think I will be taking you up on starting an "all EPDG" set any
time too soon. I will leave that up to some younger guy to try.
It's late and I've just spent a little over an hour on this thread and I've only gotten through June 5. Dan Koochin's posting of 6-4-06 is curious. I do not remember his email. I'm going to go through my notes and lists and post some stuff on this thread.
Sorry guy, I had already tabulated your inputs.
Anyhow, if I understand you correctly, you are the perfect collector of T206's
for this survey, because the backs of your 520 cards are incidental to you; and
therefore, represent a truer random distribution than most.
Also, could you check-out the backs your Mullin (horiz.) & Schaefer (Detroit)
and post them......Thanks much.
As of today, there are no reported "350" backs on Ewing....Jones....Lindaman....
and, only two on Lundgren. However, this survey (177 cards to date) does not
in anyway discount possible "350" backs on the above 3 players.
But, let's consider the 4 above players' Major League history......
Ewing (Cinc).....traded from Cinc. to Phila (NL) Jan. 1910
Tom Jones (St Louis).....traded from St Louis to Detroit on Aug 20, 1909
Lindaman (Bost).....MLB career ended in 1909 (pitched in 15 games)
Lundgren (Cubs).....MLB career ended in 1909 (pitched only in 2 games)
The point I'm trying to make is, as these 4 players' MLB careers changed in 1909,
there is a real good probabilty that the T206 designers decided not to extend
3 of them into their subsequent 350 Series (issued in 1910)....The year 1909,
of course, is critical to this debate, since that was the year the 150 Series was
first issued.
And, regarding Lundgren, a "350" back of him I would argue is very, very rare.
Furthermore, all the EPDG backs have only shown up with these 4 players.
Not a single reported EPDG back for Ames....Doyle....Schulte; therefore, at
this point are we to conclude that these three are indeed "150-only" cards ?
And, I arrive at this conclusion since some have said that "150-only" T206
cards and EPDG backs are mutually exclusive.
This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 10, 2006 11:50 AM
and they did not seem particularly hard for me to track down - although getting the rest of the Philadelphia players -- may be tougher now, in light of this thread
From an advertising standpoint, only Piedmont, SC
and Sovereign are mentioned in the first printing of T206.
Hindu comes later. My personal speculation is that EPDG
staring issuing late September/early October 1909. By that
time Hindu is issuing 350 series cards. To clarify, I
speculate EPDG is also 'a 350 series issue'. Doesn't
mean EPDG doesn't have 150 series subjects, just means
it was issued after the 'first' 150 series print run.
The '9' 150 series shortprints shouldn't have EPDG backs.
The others you are tabulating card backs for will have EPDG backs, I'm not surprised. Ted, Scott I'm unclear why its necessary to group these in with the other 9 that do not feature EPDG backs.
Ted , Scott
Are you saying EPDG was a 150 series brand issued right
from the start (speculative June /July?)and somehow didn't
issue the '9' shortprints, nor advertise their product. Or are
we agreeing they were issued later, roughly late fall 1909?
Ted,
Your latest recap shows a T206 Schaefer, Detroit with Hindu.
Where did this come from? I would be interested in this card for my Detroit collection!
Art
I bought this today at a card show for $45. I have NO idea about rarity or value since I've never bought one before. The dude that sold it to me said he didn't know anything about these boxes, but said it came as part of a t206 collection he bought awhile back. The flip-lid is still there, but the binding is loosely attached. Did I get a good deal?
I went back and checked my notes and I mis-read my handwriting.In my notes I
had "scratched" down Schulte/HINDU and when I was ready to input the new data
it looked like Schaefer (instead of Schulte). It has been corrected on the Table.
i note your 15 epdg and am wondering how that fits into your total of t206's.
since i know already you are one of the princes of back collecting, i bet that your percentage of epdg's will be quite a bit higher than the rest of the crowd.
thanks for the help.
and thanks again for the AB and BL I purchased from you yesterday!
best,
barry
P.s.
tom, i knew that you had said something about your total before on this
thread---and i found it (entry 16).
total of about 500.
i was right that you have more epdg's than most (percentage-wise).
thanks for the help.
This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 10, 2006 9:13 PM
James,
Yes, that is the correct EPDG box type that once held T206 cards. Does this have the factory 17 stamp on the bottom?
The $45 buying price seems like a pretty good deal. Congrats.
Thanks for listing your info. and it will tabulated along with newly
received data via emails to me by "readers" of our Forum.
I do not refer to people who monitor this Forum ( but for whatever
reasons, choose not to post)......as "lurkers". This term connotes
someone who is "furtive", or "up to no good". I have met quite a few
"readers" of this Forum at the Philly Show; and believe me, they are
very interesting collectors who really enjoy this Forum.
Hi Scot and Bill,
I don't think Art was suggesting that Mullin Hor was a 150 only card, but was asking if anyone had seen a Sweet Cap 350. I have a Piedmont 350, and have seen several , but 0 Sweet Cap 350's. Be well Brian
I fully understood Art M's initial question and I wanted to prove (to at least
myself) a pattern that I noticed was emerging. And, that is why I deliberately
added Mullin and Schaefer to round out this survey (even though I was aware of
them being also 350 cards, since I read it in Scot Reader's book). And, sure
enough the pattern that I am alluding to, is that an occasional "350" back will
surface. But, it isn't just any 350 back, but exclusively a PIEDMONT 350 back.
Lundgren and Schaefer have proven this and we could continue this survey to
infinity and I predict that no other "350-type" back (Sw Cap, Sov, etc.) will
be discovered. My theory is that PIEDMONT was always the 1st issued brand.
And when the T206 designers transitioned into the 350 Series (circa 1910),
they quickly realized Lundgren was no longer in the Major Lgs. and Schaefer had
been traded to Washington; therefore, they stopped printing them and only a few
PIEDMONT 350's got into circulation. This is exactly the same "scenerio" that occurred
with the Magie card at the start of the 150-Series (Magie exists only as a P150).
Now, regarding the other 6 cards (Ames, Doyle, Ewing, Jones, Lindaman, & Schulte),
can we extrapolate that they too will eventually surface with PIEDMONT 350 backs
in this survey......I am not too certain about that happening. We have quite a
formidable T206 resource to draw from in this Forum and I would have thought
more 350 backs would be evident by now ? ?
All you T206 guys, let's see your inputs.....we are still far away from "infinity".
this PRIMACY OF PIEDMONT theorizing is absolutely fascinating.
seeing the development of t206's from their inception with renewed clarity
(even at the theorizing stage with the beginnings of corroborations) is mesmerizing---at least for us 'nuts', as you say.
great work, Ted et al.
a great ride! and many,many thanks for the e-mail response,Ted!
I like your "Primacy of Piedmont" theory a lot--but I'm not sure Schaefer (Detroit) exemplifies it. My survey data show one instance of Schaefer (Detroit) with Sweet Caporal 350 Factory 30. This could be a mistake--either a recording error on my part or the result of an ebay seller having scanned the wrong back. But it's there in my data nonetheless.
Here is the list of 150/350 subjects that my survey data show with a Piedmont 350 back but no other 350 back:
Chance (Red), Clarke (Cleveland), Dahlen (Boston), Delahanty (Washington), Durham, Ganley, Herzog (New York), Karger, Kleinow (Batting), Lumley, Matty (Portrait), Mullin (Throwing), Stone and Wiltse (No Cap). (You can add Lundgren (Chicago) to this list based on what we have learned on this thread about his availability with Piedmont 350).
Many, but not all, of these players switched teams during the 1909 season or the off-season that followed. More particularly, at least Dahlen, Delahanty, Durham, Ganley, Herzog, Karger, Kleinow and Lundgren switched teams. (Durham and Lundgren were sent down to the minors).
I'd like to see if anybody has any of the above 14 or 15 subjects with a Sovereign 350 or Sweet Caporal 350 back. It would be great if Chance, Clarke, Lumley, Matty, Stone and Wiltse were confirmed with Sweet Caporal 350 or Sovereign 350 and the others were not. That would advance your theory a long way in my view.
Scot
This message has been edited by sreader3 on Jun 12, 2006 3:38 PM This message has been edited by sreader3 on Jun 12, 2006 3:30 PM This message has been edited by sreader3 on Jun 12, 2006 3:28 PM This message has been edited by sreader3 on Jun 12, 2006 3:27 PM This message has been edited by sreader3 on Jun 12, 2006 3:25 PM This message has been edited by sreader3 on Jun 12, 2006 3:25 PM This message has been edited by sreader3 on Jun 12, 2006 3:24 PM This message has been edited by sreader3 on Jun 12, 2006 3:23 PM
I have some 350 backs other than Piedmont on cards that you just listed. Here is what I have:
Chance Red Sovereign 150
Clarke Cleveland Sovereign 150, SC 150 Fac. 649
Dahlen Boston Piedmont 150
Delehanty Washington El Principe De Gales
Durham Piedmont 150
Ganley SC 150 Fac. 30
Herzog New York SC 350 Fac. 30
Karger Piedmont 150
Kleinow NY Batting Sovereign 350
Lumley SC 350 Fac. 25
Mathewson Portrait Piedmont 150
Mullin Throwing Piedmont 150
Stone Sovereign 150
Wiltse Portrait No Cap Sovereign 350
my wiltse(no cap) is a Hindu---otherwise, i have 150's. chance red sc150;
clarke cleveland p 150;delehanty washington p150;ganley sc 150; karger p150;
kleinow batting p150; lumley p150;wiltse (no cap) Hindu brown
great research question, Scot.
best,
barry
This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 12, 2006 4:35 PM
I'd like to see if anybody has any of the above 14 or 15 subjects with a Sovereign 350 or Sweet Caporal 350 back. It would be great if Chance, Clarke, Lumley, Matty, Stone and Wiltse were confirmed with Sweet Caporal 350 or Sovereign 350 and the others were not. That would advance your theory a long way in my view.
Hi Scot
I have the following cards
Matty portrait SC 350 Factory 30
Chance red SC 350 Factory 25
I am not sure that players like Dahlen might prove anything, since he
was in a Boston (AL) uniform till 1910.....well within the 350 Series
time frame. So I would expect this first Dahlen card to have the full
complement of Tobacco backs. Is this a fair assumption ?
Anyhow, here are all my backs of the 15 cards you noted......
Ted,
Dahlen left Boston to become the manager of Brooklyn after the 1909 season and before the 1910 season. So I think his example may be relevant to your "Primacy of Piedmont" theory (as the good professor has dubbed it). Looks like many, but not all, of the 14 or 15 have been ruled-out as Piedmont 350 only. Let's do a tally after a day or so more of contributions.
Scot
I've gone back and referred to all my notes in putting together my 3 sets
of T206's. And, from your list of 14 cards (except Lundgren) I have noted
that Durham and Ganley were tougher to find than most 150 Series cards
in the set.
So, I'll go "out on the limb" and suggest that only these two will conform
to my "Piedmont theory" (as so far Lundgren appears to be one). Let me
clarify....Durham and Ganley can be found with P150, SC150, Sov150 and
Hindu backs. As a 350 Series card, I say they exist only as a Piedmont 350.
And, therefore we can expect these two also with EPDG backs.
Dahlen (Boston) has never been tough to find according to my notes. So, I
I will not go "out on a limb" for him.
And, Scot, I am sure there are some guys out there already searching thru
their T206 cards ready to prove me wrong.....it's a great hobby, especially
when we are talking T206's.
Dan,
Purported Schulte (Front Views) with Sweet Cap 350 have shown up on ebay a couple of times in the last few years. Turns out that each time the seller put up the wrong back scan or improperly described the back--which was 150 in each case. I have heard other rumblings of Schulte with Sweet Cap 350, but never confirmed. I would love to actually SEE one in a PSA or SGC holder to put this issue to rest. Also, it is interesting that I have never heard any rumors of Schulte (Front View) with a Piedmont 350 back--a more common back than the Sweet Cap 350.
Scot
This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 21, 2006 4:01 PM This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 17, 2006 8:08 PM This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 13, 2006 3:50 PM This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 13, 2006 10:36 AM
Of the 14-15 additional cards I have only 2 in my collection of 160 or so T-206's.
Karger Piedmont 150
Kleinow Batting piedmont 150
On another note, this thread has crystalized a lot about what I've learned about back rarities in assorted publications, including Scot's.
Thanks guys for rolling out the resources.
This is now my set of choice, after many years of wandering. The intricacies are fascinating, the mystery intriguing, and the fun is endless!
RayB
Always looking for presentable PSA 1,2,3's that I need for my humble set.
Hi Ted,
Thanks for the spreadsheet. I recently owned and sold a Ganley Piedmont 350. I bought it SPECIFICALLY because it had a 350 back. You can add "1" to Ganley/Piedmont 350.
Thanks,
Scot
Where did you see this Lindaman 350 ? And, could you provide a scan ?
But, as Scot Reader pointed out (on the Schulte card) front/back scans can
be misleading. And, this is why I have insisted in all these surveys that
the inputs must be based on actual cards in members' collections.
Currently, there are only 2 Graded Lindamans on Ebay.....a P150 and SC150.
T-Rex Ted
This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 14, 2006 8:21 PM
I know at this point it's anectdotal; however, your examples are "making my
case". But alas, I think we have either "mined" all the various backs that the
Forum members have in their collections. Or, we have reached the point where
we have exhausted their attention to this subject matter.
If the latter is the case......it's disappointing, as we really have just begun to
develop some insight into the subtleties of the T206 back design with respect
to 1st Series "tougher" cards.
I agree with your last post on all counts and this will be my last post on this thread. I would summarize the findings relating to the 150-only debate as follows:
1. Lundgren (Chicago) has been confirmed with a 350 back. The six other identified potential 150-only subjects have not been definitively confirmed with a 350 back (at least in my mind).
2. There are a few 150/350 subjects, many of whom were traded or left the majors after 1909, who likely appear with the Piedmont 350 back but no other 350 back. This may be attributable to the Piedmont 350 print run commencing before the print run for other 350 backs. This "Primacy of Piedmont" trend may persist in the 150 and 460 series.
I agree with Scot that much further study is needed
and i for one welcome the opportunity to pursue such study.
Many thanks for your groundbreaking work, TRex.
And for your top drawer tome, scot, which served as the impetus for this board working together on these very important issues. I should underscore 'board working together' since we saw
a collegiality that is most remarkable and refreshing.
Wow, this thread is a testament of this bull board. Great information and opinons shared. I'm not a big T206 collector but I sure appreciate the information being shared.
Hi Ted, Scot, Barry, Dan, etc,
this thread is far from over. I have been in CA for the last week, but should be able to add some interesting info by early next week on EPDG and Old Mill's.
Have a nice Father's Day, World Cup, Us Open, NBA Final, College World Series, weekend. Be well Brian
PS Yes, Barry I am a HUGE Tarheel fan. My Mom was a cheerleader there in the 60's and my sister and I both went to school there. Davidson is a great school, but a little to tough for me, you must be pretty sharp.
I just got done reviewing all the backs in my collection, and am in the process of writing them to an Excel spreadsheet for ease of sorting. It takes time to do thorough research.
I said I wouldn't post here again, but your last post made me change my mind! You mentioned Ames (Hands at Chest), Dahlen (Boston) and Lindaman as not having been seen with a 350 back. I have seen a PSA graded copy of Dahlen (Boston) with a Piedmont 350 back. It was owned by Bill Latzko and he offered it to me off-eBay before he auctioned it on eBay last year. I think Dahlen (Boston) is an example of a subject that exists with Piedmont 350 but no other 350 back.
I am curious why you did not mention Doyle (Throwing), Ewing or Jones (St. Louis) in your last post. In addition to Ames (Hands at Chest) and Lindaman, I don't believe anyone has confirmed Doyle (Throwing), Ewing or Jones (St. Louis) with any 350 back on this thread. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Scot
This message has been edited by sreader3 on Jun 21, 2006 4:31 PM
Thanks for the Dahlen (Boston) Piedmont 350 input.
Your observation is correct on Doyle, Ewing & Jones. There are NO confirmed "350"
backs on these 3 as of today. I hesitated to note this on Ewing and Jones since
a "reader" of this Forum had emailed me that he had them. But, as of now, they
have not been confirmed. Also, I have been calling fellow collectors that have near
complete sets and sampling their T206's. And, so far there are no surprises; as
all of them are the expected 150 Series backs.
One more item......I am very surprised that there is one "350" input (and an SC
at that) on Durham. He was 35 years old when the T206's were first issued, his
very brief Major Lge career had ended; and, there was really no reason for Durham
to have been extended into the 350 Series. Do you have any thoughts on this ?
Also, it's been my experience in putting together 3 sets, that Durham has always
been extremely tough for me to find.
This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 22, 2006 3:03 PM
Ted,
Durham is a toughie for sure. My ebay survey data show 1 Piedmont 350 out of 26 total transactions. The other 25 transactions were Piedmont, Sovereign and Sweet Caporal 150.
Scot
Hi Ted,
I'm still waiting on a few cards to arrive before I post. I don't have anything "earth shattering" to report, but I do think my information may shed a little light on the timing of EPDG versus Old Mill. Talk to you when everything comes in. Be well Brian
PS Scot and Ted, I agree with you about Durham.......
Those of us who like to get down to the "nitty-gritty" of the T206 Monster
really appreciate all this data from at least 70 Forum posters and six Forum
"readers" who have not only contributed their inputs, but also their time in
the process.
After sampling a total of 400+ cards in this survey, we have reduced the
possibility of additional cards that could have appeared in the 150-only Series
(besides the known 10) to the following 8 cards......
I've got to tell all of you that this thread has really provided me with a walk down memory lane. At the time The Monster was published. I was but one of three collectors(the other two were late comers to this obsession) I knew who had actually collected T206 all of the ways it could be--which meant you were a back collector. I published the book in an attempt to make more "back" collectors, and it is gratifying to me to see how many of them are out there now.
1. The thread started as a look at the scarcity of EPDG backs. My list shows 201 different EPDG backs, including many from the Eastern League and American Association. That's slightly less than 5% of my list. But that's not the complete story. As I was accumulating T206, I would never trade or sell one that I did not already have. And I traded and sold thousands upon thousands of dupes and EPDG were nowhere close to 1/10 of 1 percent of these dupes.
2. Now to the 150 only cards. A lot has been learned since The Monster. Of the original 9 that were pretty well established as 150 only and shown that way in the Monster, I have not had any of the nine with other than Piedmont, Sovereign and SweetCap 150's and Hindu. I have six of the nine with Hindu backs. Of the five in Ted's most recent post. it's the same situation. The reporting of EPDG backs on these, I believe, raises the potential of a 350 back. What I believe is that Hindu was there at the beginning and EPDG came along just before, or at the time, the backs were changed to 350's. Beyond the original nine and Ted's five, there are four more that I have never had a 350 back for: Spencer, Bost AL, Chase-throwing white cap, Jordan-PO and Schulte-batting front. I do have EDPG on the Chase. Again, I believe that a 350 back is probable for any that came out in EPDG. That would mean that I cannot confirm, but strongly suspect. So it appears that the 150 only should include the original nine, two from Ted's posting and three I mentioned in this post.
I'm sure we haven't heard the last word on this.
We really appreciate your expertise on these T206 "mysteries". Your insight
gives us more confidence in what we are trying to understand here. Many may
say this is all an academic "folly"....but, to a lot of us who strive to know as
much as we can about the T206 set.....it is a joy.
Now, you are suggesting 4 more possible "150-only" cards to the "mix"......
Chase (White Cap)....Jordan (portrait)....Schulte (Cubs)....Spencer (Bost).
I have 4 cards of Chase (Wh Cap)....P150, P150, SC150 and P350. So, right off
the bat, we can rule him out.
I have always thought Schulte (Cubs) to be a potential 150-only card; and, we
had him listed in our tabulation. However, there has been one (and only one)
reported P350 of this card. This report has not been made directly to me, but
I do know the owner of this card and I will contact him to confirm. I have had
at least 20 Schulte cards (as I keep upgrading) over the years and they are
for the most part (85%) P150 and the rest SC150. I have never seen a Sov150,
much less a "350" of any type....have you Bill ?
1st....I would appreciate your opinion of my "Piedmont primacy" theory (as Barry
Arnold coined it); where if any of these potential 150-only cards have a "350"
back....it will ONLY be a P350 and will have been "short-printed" ?
2nd....I am adding Jordan amd Spencer to the survey and restoring Schulte to it.
Those of us who like to get down to the "nitty-gritty" of the T206 Monster
really appreciate all this data from at least 70 Forum posters and six Forum
"readers" who have not only contributed their inputs, but also their time in
the process.
After sampling a total of 400+ cards in this survey, we have reduced the
possibility of additional cards that could have appeared in the 150-only Series
(besides the known 10) to the following 8 cards......
many thanks for your comments on the EPDG 'scarcity'.
as you saw, most every contributor fell into the 1% EPDG
category out of their total T206 holdings. I agree with
you that one tenth of one percent falls well outside the range of typicality. It does seem fair to say that EPDG
did turn out to be more scarce than many of us thought.
Scarce does not mean rare,however.
Perhaps most importantly at this juncture is the issue regarding the Primacy of Piedmont which Ted Z. has offered
up as a possible way of envisioning the early formation of
the T206's---the notion that any of the potential 150-only
have a 350 back which is only the PIEDMONT 350 back that was
short-printed. I,too, am eager to hear your response as well as others.
Your comment about going down memory lane is most elucidative. Sharing the joy of research and discovery is the heart and soul of collecting the 206's. Your work on
The Monster, as well as Reader's recent work, along with other works in the field, have certainly contributed much to the vitality of this discussion. Again, many thanks.
Barry
p.s. Trex, i slipped away from the univ. and quickly found
my spencer is an SC 150 and my chase white cap is a pied 150---not much help yet, but i'll keep researching!
This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 23, 2006 5:12 PM This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 23, 2006 4:05 PM
You caught me Brian!
I am still at home but will run out the door right now to alleviate
the guilt!!
Being a Chapel Hill fan worked for about an extra hour off,
though.
great to see you back in the thick of things.
For years before I created the theoretical checklist that was the basis for The Monster, I had been accumulating T206 by backs and series, etc. But because I was the first, I believe, to do it that way, there had never been a checklist, in my view, that "covered all the bases." And I believe that I was probably the only person who had enough T206 to do the job. So I laid out a checklist ala the Monster's, but I didn't have any cards blacked out. Incidentally I laid the brands out alphabetically, which, of course, lead to the weird coincidence in the 350 series brands. I checked off all the cards I had (I had always kept any "new" card I found). And, believe me, I couldn't always remember what varieties I had when I went to a show or did a buy or went on a buying trip. So I checked them all off and noticed that certain patterns had emerged. I sent a copy of the checklist to Larry Fritsch as I knew he had quite a few T206 laying around and asked him to go through his and checklist them for me, which he did just a while later. He said he had gone over every T206 he had and he had no additions (no mention of Doyle, N.Y. National--this was 1979). Every card that Larry checklisted fell into the patterns I had noted. That's when I started x'ing cards out. A little later, Lew Lipset, who had just become a "back" collector went over my checklist with the same results. So then I started doing research on the players to try to understand how these patterns emerged. Demmitt, St.L. Am. and O'Hara, St.L. Nat--how weird, I thought. Only with Polar Bear backs--that made no sense. What I came up with was that the 150's started in 1909. But to give you an example of how dark the ages were back then--virtually every pioneer in the hobby had called T206 a 1910 issue. I believe the 350 series started later in 1909 and continued through most of 1910, but then late in the year the 460's came along.
The primacy of Piedmont. Interesting. You have to remember that all of these companies were run by the American Tobacco Trust. It is pretty clear that Piedmont, Sweet Cap and Sovereign were the Trust's darling brands. Of those three, I suspect Piedmont was the lead brand. Because there were many, many press runs that were done in those two years, it makes sense that the "darling" brands would get the cards first. And, again, it's obvious that those would be the most common backs found. But there are just no records that were kept to show us any of this. And, believe me, before there was an internet, research was tedious, laborious--most didn't do much. And there weren't too many places to go to find information.
When Denny Eckes expressed an interest in publishing a book I had copyrighted called T206 The Monster, I jumped at the chance. What better way to ignite some interest in the backs? Denny asked me to send him examples of all of the variations, all of the different backs and all of the Hall of Famers--he had a good picture of Plank so he didn't need that one. So, yes I boxed up all of the variations, all the backs and Hofers and rare cards and sent them (can you imagine) the 2500 or so miles to Denny so he could take the pictures. And, yes, I got them back when he was done. So Denny did a press run of 5000 copies, sent me 100 so I could take them with me to shows, and he was in charge of selling them. Shortly before his death several boxes showed up at my office. In them were about 2200 copies of The Monster and note from Denny in which he explained that sales had now covered his expenses so he was sending me half of what was left over, hoping I would accept that as a deal done and completed. I called him and thanked him. Neither I, nor this hobby, ever had a better friend than Denny Eckes. But Denny added the cards of Farrah without my knowledge or approval. For years, I gave updates through my Trader Speaks articles of errors that had been made when Denny had to convert my typewritten checklist to the ultimate format for The Monster. If there is interest, I will post all of those errors, in this thread tomorrow. By the way, I once did the addition and found that there were just short of 7000 different T206 and, even though that number has changed, I managed to confirm just under 5000. Getting late.
That is great stuff, I for one cannot get enough of this type of information on
the T206 set.....it just fascinates me. When I started collecting my 1st set,
in the early '80s, I was just content to acquire the 521 cards (Magie was a
reasonably priced card back then). I was not interested in the backs, I had
more important priorities....family, job, etc. In recent years, being retired,
my incessant curiousity regarding this set, has motivated me to concentrate
on the various backs.
I have completed my subset of the different backs, except Broad Leaf 460 (and
I am in the "school" that doesn't think the Ty Cobb back is a T206 issue......
the front isn't the same and it has a unique "Factory 33" on the back).
I'm happy that you seem to support my theory regarding the Piedmont brand being
favored by the T206 designers. I have recently reduced my 2nd T206 set to only
Piedmont backs and have embarked on a 518-card "all Piedmont" set. I realize it
would really be 522....but, I just can't afford Joe Doyle, Magie, Wagner, and the
one (or two) Plank's that exist with Piedmont backs.
So, at this point in time I have completed the 153 cards in the "150 Series".
I have 42 of the 48 So. Lgers and all the 48 cards of the "460-only" Series.
And, I have 177 of the "350 Series"; so, I need less than 100 to achieve this
all-Piedmont set.
Those of us who like to get down to the "nitty-gritty" of the T206 Monster
really appreciate all this data from at least 70 Forum posters and six Forum
"readers" who have not only contributed their inputs, but also their time in
the process.
After sampling a total of 400+ cards in this survey, we have reduced the
possibility of additional cards that could have appeared in the 150-only Series
(besides the known 10) to the following 8 cards......
With Ted Z. i must underscore my thanks for your most illuminative descriptions of those early days when you
did such pre-internet, tedious, laborious work as you set the stage for this great hobby we all love. Hearing you
relive the various steps along the way is absolutely fascinating! It is particularly interesting to me when you
refer to the time as the dark ages--as i think of the dark
ages of the post-Roman period-- and am grateful that you and
others took on the responsility of taking hold of the remnants of what could have been lost of the 'culture of the
t206's' and created the tome that would solidify the legacy of The Monster. THANK YOU.
With respect to Ted Z.'s theory of the Primacy of Piedmont, your comment regarding the darling brands getting the cards first and your suspecting that Piedmont was the lead brand is helpful and corroborative---even though the primary sources are long gone (fortunately, you are the primary of the secondary sources! )
We look forward to your posting of the errors list which you produced upon the conversion of the typewritten checklist to the ultimate format for The Monster. The more
research the better for what has turned out to be a most
elucidative RESEARCH THREAD.
all the best
Barry
This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 24, 2006 2:34 PM
Okay, so I finally finished cataloging all of my backs. For argument's sake, I have listed my backs followed by all of the different T206 backs in order of scarcity according to the T206museum.com website. I have indicated how many of each back I have acquired in putting the set together. The hindu, tolstoi and cycle backed cards were intentional pick ups that had at least something to do with the backs. And I dumped a few American Beauty backs once upon a time. But otherwise, this should be a pretty normal distribution for someone who put a complete set together over the last 8 or 9 years without paying a premium for (or much attention to) the backs. If either the series or factory were illegible, they are not included below.
Here are my findings:
Tolstoi No 30 2d Dist NY 1
Sov 460 No 25 2d Dist Va 1
Hindu No 649 1st Dist NY 1
Cycle 350 No 25 2d Dist Va 1
AB 350 No 25 2d Dist Va 1
SC 460 No 42 4th Dist NC 2
SC 150 No 649 1st Dist NY (OP) 2
OM No 25 2d Dist Va 3
EPDG No 17 2d Dist Va 3
Sov 150 No 25 2d Dist Va 5
SC 460 No 42 4th Dist NC (OP) 7
SC 460 No 30 2d Dist NY 9
Sov 350 No 25 2d Dist Va 13
SC 350 No 25 2d Dist Va 16
OM SL No 25 2d Dist Va 16
SC 150 No 25 2d Dist Va 19
PB No 6 1st Dist O 31
P 460 No 25 2d Dist Va 32
SC 150 No 30 2d Dist NY 35
P 150 No 25 2d Dist Va 60
SC 350 No 30 2d Dist NY 70
P 350 No 25 2d Dist Va 185
So, first thing I noticed is that the top 14 backs listed in order of scarcity by T206museum (and reprinted for your convenience below) are, indeed, scarce (or at least much more costly, as an indicator of scarcity). I have not picked up any of them:
1. Old Mill (Southern League - Double Overprints) - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY
2. Old Mill (Southern League - Overprint) - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY
3. Ty Cobb - Factory 33 - District 4 - State NC
4. Old Mill (Brown) - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
5. Broad Leaf - Series 460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
6. Lenox (Brown) - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
7. Drum - Series 350- Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
8. Uzit - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
9. Hindu (Red) - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY
10. Piedmont - Series 350-460 - Factory 42 - District 4 - State NC
11. Blank Back
12. Lenox (Black) - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
13. Broad Leaf - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
14. Carolina Brights - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
However, the T206museum scarcity distribution for the remainder of the backs does not always parallel my experience (my count is reprinted in brackets to the right of each back):
15. Hindu (Brown) - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY [1]
16. American Beauty - Series 460 - Factory 42 - District 4 - State NC [0]
17. Cycle - Series 460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [0]
18. Tolstoi - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY [1]
19. El Principe De Gales - Factory 17 - District 2 - State VA [3]
20. Sovereign - Series 460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [1]
21. American Beauty (no Frame) - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [1]
22. American Beauty (with Frame) - Series 350- Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [0]
23. Cycle - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [1]
24. Old Mill (Southern League) - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [16]
25. Sweet Caporal - Series 350-460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [0]
26. Old Mill (Black) - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [3]
27. Sovereign - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [15]
28. Sweet Caporal (Overprint) - Series 150 - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY [2]
29. Sweet Caporal (Overprint) - Series 350-460 - Factory 42 - District 4 - State NC [7]
30. Sweet Caporal - Series 350-460 - Factory 42 - District 4 - State NC [2]
31. Sovereign - Series 150 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [5]
32. Polar Bear - Factory 6 - District 1 - State OH [31]
33. Sweet Caporal - Series 150 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [19]
34. Sweet Caporal - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [16]
35. Piedmont - Series 150 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [60]
36. Sweet Caporal - Series 150 - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY [35]
37. Sweet Caporal - Series 350-460 - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY [9]
38. Piedmont - Series 350-460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [32]
39. Sweet Caporal - Series 350 - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY [70]
40. Piedmont - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA [185]
A few observations/questions for the experts:
- I don't have a single SC 460 (25 Dist 2 Va) card - is that strange?
- Old Mill Southern Leaguers are not particularly tough if you are willing to pay a little more just to pick up Southern Leaguers in the first place.
- I had two each SC 460 (No 42 4th Dist NC) and SC 150 (No 649 1st Dist NY (OP)), while I had three EPDG. I also had 3 OM (No 25 2d Dist Va) cards. Thus, EPDG's relative scarcity is not particularly significant in my collection.
- Contrary to T206museum, I believe Sovereigh 150's (of which I had 5) and are a bit tougher than Sovereign 350's (of which I had 15).
- Really only three backs are meaningfully more common than Polar Bears: SC 350 (30 Dist 2 NY) and P 150 and 350 (25 District 2 VA).
Are there any other interesting points I'm missing?
This message has been edited by T206Collector on Jun 24, 2006 3:34 PM
Sweet Cap. 460 Fact. 25 are far more uncommon than say EPDG or even Hindu, but the back hasn't received a lot of credit from collectors cuz' it's not quite as interesting as other distinct backs.
I started a thread on it here some time ago and many collectors had only one or two out of 400 or more.
Hi Ted,
I was going to post some cool pics and some interesting research, but since your away until Monday, I'm going to wait. Have a good weekend Brian
I have a few hundred, it depends on wht the guy smoked who's hoard you find. This is a common back and always has been since the late 1960s. Many reside in old time collections that you gents do not know about. Take care.
This is my second try--my first didn't take. I wanted to answer Ted's question regarding the Schulte card. I can confirm all five of the 150 backs, including Sovereign, and a Hindu back.
Here are the errors in the Monster that were all made in the transfer from my list to the book's list: (1) Nos. 20 and 21 should have the 350-460 series blacked out; (2) Nos. 36 and 150 should not have the series 350, Piedmont through Sweet Cap, blacked out; (3) No. 37 should have the entire 350 series blacked out; (4) No. 42 should have the Ty Cobb back blacked out; (5) Nos. 91 and 119 should have the 350 series, American Beauty through Drum, blacked out; (6) No. 141 should not have the series 350-460 blacked out; (7) The entire Texas League should have the Hindu back blacked out; and (8) After No. 509 Smith, Shreveport, there should be a team listing for Waco and No. 510 Thebo then shows as being on Waco. There might be more.
On Sweet Cap backs, in the 150 Series, I found #30 to be the most plentiful, followed closely by #25 with #649 being by far the least common; in the 350 Series, again, I found #30 to be more plentiful than #25; and, in the 350-460 Series, I found the overprint to be the most plentiful followed by #'s 25 and 30, both just about as plentiful as the other, and factory 42 to be the least plentiful. In all three series types, I found Piedmont to be more plentiful than any one of the Sweet Cap backs. In all three I found Sovereign to be just a little less plentiful than the two most plentiful Sweet Caps.
I've often been asked what started me collecting T206 in what was once considered my insane way. Well, I'm my family's third generation of card collectors. My grandfather began as a young boy in the 1880's and he got my father started as a young boy. My father collected regularly from that time until his death some 70 years later. After my birth, my father decided that he now had to collect two of everything because he then had two sons. When I was very young, he showed me these little white bordered cards that he was working on. I was rather disappointed that they didn't say anything about the players on the rear of the cards as the gold bordered and brown bordered cards did, but something drew me to the American Beauty, Broadleaf, Carolina Brights and Polar Bear backed cards and the rest, so to speak, is history.
I am just thrilled that all of you guys are trying to contribute to the solution of some of the many mysteries of The Monster T206.
many,many thanks for the listing of errors to the Monster,the response to Ted's research
query, and the reflections on the your early days and the early days of t206
collecting. It is all so fascinating to those of us enamored of that captivating Monster.
do take a moment to help with Ted's new thread on Piedmont Primacy when you get a chance. As one who 'tamed' the Monster, your comments are always most
helpful.
best
barry
p.s. where are the pics Brian W.?!!!
we're eager.
This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 26, 2006 4:40 PM
Hi Barry,
I will try to post the pic tonight after the kids go down. My wife had a minor surgery today, so I'm "Mr. Mom" at the moment. I would appreciate everyone posting there CLAUDE RITCHEY T206'S FRONT AND BACK as soon as possible. This will help my post.....
PS No, Ritchey is not a 150 only card, but the unique change of the printing of this card will help us date EPDG and Old Mill.
150 PIC
350 PIC
This message has been edited by BRIANKW on Jun 26, 2006 6:53 PM This message has been edited by BRIANKW on Jun 26, 2006 6:46 PM
Thanks for the note, Brian.
I do hope your wife gets well quickly.
We're eager to see what you have whenever you're able to
find the time---but no rush. Mr. Mom is a tough,tough job.
Sorry but i don't have a Ritchey---but i'm sure loads
of other folks will come through.
Claude Ritchey is another one of those T206 players whose career ended as the
1st Series of T206 cards were being issued. He played in only 30 games in 1909
and that was it for his 13 year Major Lge. career.
Is your "350" card a Piedmont....as is J Hull's Ritchey..?
And, your 350 card has a very interesting "blue sky effect". It looks like a large
white dove in flight. I have never seen that before.
T-Rex Ted
This message has been edited by tedzan on Jun 27, 2006 12:05 PM
Hi Ted,
I have been collecting and observing Ritchey cards for about 5 years now, and have come to the conclusion that 99% of the 150 cards show no dove in the clouds, and the few that do look more like faint clouds than a dove. The 350's on the other hand, contain the extra blue and the extra clouds and "dove" 99% of the time. I believe this change was made by design and may help with the timeline of product distribution.
To date all of the Ritchey's with EPDG back look the same as the 150 cards:
While all of the Old Mill's look like 350 cards: Except Piedmont
I'll try to post a few more scans and some raw data on the number of cards sometime after dinner. Heading to a meeting Brian
This message has been edited by BRIANKW on Jun 27, 2006 2:47 PM
Nice observation, Brian. (keep them coming)
Beyond the interesting issues of timing and sequence, it raises the question of how/why the "dove" is visible. I don't know an awful lot about printing techniques, but one thing that I notice looking at the scans is that it seems like there's a layer of dark blue ink on the "dove" card that isn't there on the "normal" version. On the P350 I listed, the registration's slightly off left to right, and the ink color used for the sky is clearly sky blue (seen up and down the overlapped left edge). The sky blue over yellow creates the green "grass" in the background.
Your "dove" card's registration is off enough top to bottom and left to right to show a separate layer of dark blue over the sky blue base layer. It's also particularly and obviously visible on Ritchey's elbow.
That dark blue ink definitely strikes me as change in the production/printing process and not as any kind of freak printing occurrence.
Jamie
This message has been edited by jimonym on Jun 27, 2006 3:13 PM This message has been edited by jimonym on Jun 27, 2006 3:11 PM
This is great stuff.....I just love it. Now, how do we get Forum members to
show their Ritchey cards ?
Brian.....I'm afraid we have reached "Forum Fatigue" on this Thread. I've received
two emails that leads me to say this. While two emails do not represent the 70+
majority of members (unique responses), I didn't appreciate their tone.
Anyhow.....Let's see what developes.....Onward Ho !
Hi Ted,
It's "Date night", so I won't be in until later, but maybe you should start a new thread, "show me your Ritchey" and we'll go from there. I may have to send you some scans to post, because I'm running out of room. Talk to you tonight Brian
PS Good news, bad news. I picked up a Jones 350 today(Piedmont of course), so he's another possible 150 that bites the dust.
Those of us who like to get down to the "nitty-gritty" of the T206 Monster
really appreciate all this data from at least 80 Forum posters and six Forum
"readers" who have not only contributed their inputs, but also their time in
the process.
After sampling 500+ cards in this survey, we have reduced the possibility of
additional cards that could have appeared in the 150-only Series (besides
the known 10) to the following 4 cards....Ames....Doyle....Ewing....Lindaman.
Thanks, Daryle.
It looks like your epdg count is around 1% of your 206's which is where most folks who contributed fell.
Please provide Ted Z. any information you may have on the cards he is surveying (cf. the entry right before yours on this thread).
also please provide pics of 206 Ritchey for Brian W.'s new thread for
research data purposes.
again, many thanks
best,
barry
This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Jun 28, 2006 12:02 AM
Those of us who like to get down to the "nitty-gritty" of the T206 Monster
really appreciate all this data from at least 80 Forum posters and six Forum
"readers" who have not only contributed their inputs, but also their time in
the process.
After sampling 500+ cards in this survey, we have reduced the possibility of
additional cards that could have appeared in the 150-only Series (besides
the known 10) to the following 4 cards....Ames....Doyle....Ewing....Lindaman.
LOVE the DOVE !!! If it is an intended design variation rather than a printing error, I would say that you have discovered a new T206 subject. Should we call it "Ritchey (With Dove)" or "Ritchey (With Clouds)"?
Also, thanks for confirmation of Jones (St. Louis) in Piedmont 350.
Hi Scot,
I do believe the printers intended the Dove to be visible in the cloud's, because one of Boston's nicknames was the "Doves". I guess it didn't work out to well in the first run so they added the dark blue in the second run to bring out the image.
I was hoping someone would pick up on the dove nickname when they saw the cards, but it took until today for someone to notice. JOGGERDRU emailed me about it a few hours ago.
Can it be possible that a Net54 Thread such as this can run 262 posts......
staying on topic......devoid of people bashing......and at the same time be
very informative (to us T206 "nuts")......and at least somewhat interesting
to those who are not as serious about these cards ? ?
Ted, I love seeing a thread like this. I'm just having a little fun because the thread has gone on for so long without degenerating. This IS the heart and soul of what this board is all about. Sadly, the threads that dengenerate are ones that always get the most run and this thread proven to be the exception. A very good exception that we need more of.
Sorry I'm so late with my reply, but better late than never I guess. I have 122 T206's. 1 El P back. I sold a few raw cards about 3 months ago and I think I sold 2 El P backs, but they were pretty rough.
Out of the 122 cards I have 1 El P, 1 American Beauty and 1 Tolsoi.
Old Mill, Polar Bear, Piedmont and Sweet Cap round out the rest of the backs. Joe
A scared man can't gamble and a jealous man can't work.
My suspicion is that Ritchey appears WITH dove in Sweet Cap 350 and Old Mill and appears WITHOUT dove in Hindu, EPDG, Piedmont 150, Sovereign 150 and Sweet Cap 150. (I have never seen Ritchey in Sovereign 350--he may not even exist with that back.)
Whether Ritchey appears with or without dove in Piedmont 350 will be telling on Ted's "primacy of Piedmont" theory--if he appears WITHOUT dove in Piedmont 350 it will be very supportive of Ted's theory since it would strongly suggest that Piedmont 350 was printed BEFORE Old Mill and Sweet Cap 350.
Brian--I hope you realize the magnitude of your discovery. Apparently, nobody else figured this out (or at least made it public) for almost a century!
many thanks for the data. Your epdg holdings indicate a little less that
1% of epdg relative to your total 206 holdings which continues to fall in
line with previous data received.
thanks scot for underscoring the major import of Brian's findings re:
Ritchey; hearing the word discovery is particularly exciting!!
why did you wait so long to bring it out in the open, Brian?!!!
There is a marked difference in the print registration and color qualities of all 150 and 350 series cards. After seeing many of them you can pick out the 350 series from the 150's by the fronts only. To think that this is an intentional "dove" is far fetched, it is only the different print/color run of the 350 series in my opinion.
tom b.,
many thanks for the epdg data.
here we're looking at less than 1% (in fact, around one tenth of one percent)
epdg relative to the total of nearly 500 206's. still it can be seen as
corroborative of our typical 1% figure.
it must have been hard to let go of such a great collection, Tom, but
congratulations on the sell via REA.
Please respond to ted and Brian W.'s queries, if you haven't already.
I'm with Scott B., I don't think it's a deliberate variation by the printers, rather just a different print run. I think what's interesting is the confirmation of the "Piedmont Primacy" theory as so far we've only seen the 150 Ritchey print run front on 150's and 2 350's, both Piedmont, but no other 350 backs. We should continue this research on other cards that had multiple front print runs and see whether or not it is only on Piedmont 350's where the earlier front is found.
I was closely looking over my set and was going to post, but I think Elliott just
succintly conveyed my thoughts before I did. Anyhow, here is my "take" for
whatever it is worth.....perhaps a penny or two.
Since I have my T206's "segregated" in my album according to Series (150, 350, 460),
it becomes more evident. And, my observation is that the American Lithograph Co.
was a lot more creative with BLUE INK in the printing of the 2nd Series (350) cards.
Have you guys ever compared Kid Elberfeld (NY) with his Washington portrait card ?
The NY portrait (initially in the 150 Series) has the "Kid" with Brown eyes and the
and the tougher Washington portrait (350 Series-only) has the Kid with BLUE eyes.
I am just having my wake-up coffee; and, I will post scans on these two cards to
show this subtle difference. And, there are more examples of this in the 2nd Series.
And, of course the Ritchey card is probably the most outstanding example of this.
Kudos to you, Brian W, for bringing this to our attention.
To follow up my prior post....note the color difference in the Kid's eyes on these two
cards. I have observed many of the Kid's Washington portrait and they all have Blue
eyes.....this blue color is consistent on every card.
I realize my scan does not show a distinct (or clear) difference. Sorry, about this; but, please compare your actual cards and you will clearly see the Blue eyes in the Washington version.
In the meantime, I will try to come up with more examples of the "blue enhancement" on 2nd Series cards.
This message has been edited by tedzan on Dec 31, 2006 4:50 PM
This thread gets better and better.
Great find, Ted.
Elliot and Scott B, I know with a thread this size it's almost impossible to see every post let alone remember them, but I made the argument some ways back that the "dove" variation is the result of an additional layer of ink being used that was not being used on the earlier "non-dove" version. Of course, the chromolithography used to produce the T206s required a new printing plate (or stone) for each color. I've been hoping that someone would posit a theory as to why an additional plate was introduced to the process for Ritchey somewhat midstream (apparently at least part ways through the P350 print run). Are there any brave souls out there who care to hazard a guess?
Btw, if we're looking for changes in blue ink, we should also keep in mind that green was created by overlaying layers of yellow and blue ink, so there may be changes to the color green as well.
From the near set I just sold in REA.......
Ames.....P150
Doyle(throw).....P350
Ewing.....SC150
Jones(St.L).....P150
Lindaman.....SC150
Lundgren(Chi).....P150
Schulte(Chi).....P150
OK, with Tom's input of Doyle (throwing) with a PIEDMONT 350 back, we are now left
with the following still standing as possible 150-only candidates......
Ritchey with and without the dove has dark green and red. So one thing for sure is that Ritchey without the dove isn't the mere result of failure to complete all stages of the colorization process, such as, for example, Sweeney (Boston) missing red ink.
The question then in my mind is whether (a) there was a conscious attempt to add an extra layer of blue in the 350 series to create the dove image in the sky, or (b) the dove was there all along in the 150 series and is just more pronounced in the 350 series. If (a) then I would say Ritchey (With Dove) is a legitimate design variation possibly worthy of separate checklisting. If (b) then I would say it is just another run-of-the-(old) mill color variation. (I recognize others dispute that it is even a dove--which is a another question).
So I am interested in seeing Ritcheys in 150 that have the putative dove, however faint. Does anybody have one they can show-off?
Scot
This message has been edited by sreader3 on Jun 30, 2006 12:24 PM
total EPDG count (estimated) - and a primacy/Honus thought
June 30 2006, 1:21 PM
Had a thought about the EPDG population.
IF estimates of the total number of T206 cards in existance today number say, one million cards, and if based on the research on this thread roughly 1% of cards are found with an EPDG back, then by doing the math one could conclude then that there are about 10,000 T206 cards floating around in the world with an EPDG back (note - as stated, based on an assumed million card population). IF the estimate of total T206s in existance sounds reasonable, the number of EPDG backed cards doesn't sound like they'd be that hard to locate (as opposed to Drum backs, where it's likely under 100 exist).
Plus, if we go on the 10,000 cards with EPDG estimate, and for the sake of easy mental math we use 200 as the number of subjects possible with this back, then there could be around 50 of each subject with this back still floating around (again, easy math using 200 and not the actual amount).
So, in terms of total cards available, EPDG sounds plentiful. In terms of total cards per subject (front pose), acquiring one of each would prove difficult.
Just my two cents.
Mike (18colt)
PS: One thought about the primacy theory that bugs me -- explaining the Wagner, which is mostly Sweet Caporal (this was noted earlier in the thread by another poster but not commented/responded to). Perhaps Wagner is an example of some odd marketing technique copied today by the shiny card makers (Piedmont is most prevalent, and if a collector wanted them all, they'd have to branch out to other brands to increase the likelihood of getting Honus).
Upon very close observation of my two Ritchey cards (150 Series and are shown in prior
post here). I see a very vague pattern in the sky background; that, I think with blue or
green color enhancement could yield the "clouds or dove" pattern we are seeing on the
350 versions of Ritchey.
If one "sectionalizes" their T206 set, as I have, you will see a dramatic difference in
the BLUE backgrounds. Of the 153 cards of my Piedmont 150 Series (which are Blue
backgrounds) all have a Pale Blue coloring. The one possible exception is the Rube
Waddell portrait, of which I have 4 examples. Two 150 and two 350 and both the 350
are a deep Blue, while one of the 150 is a pale Blue and the one in my set is a deep
Blue. To finally acquire a Deep Blue Waddell (P150) I must have gone thru a dozen.
Now, as you proceed thru my T206 album into the 350 section you immediately notice
the deeper Blue colors. Chase portrait is one of the 1st that strikes your attention with
its rich deep Blue background. And, this brighter and richer Blue coloring continues thru
the Minor Leaguers (except the Southern Lge. cards which do not have any deep Blue).
And, finally the 460-only section continues with the deeper Blue coloring.
Hi Mike,
I don't have enough time to go through all of your well thought out post, but I will say a word or two about Wagner.
About 75% of the known Wagners have come from in and around the NY/ Philly area which had a much higher concentration of immigrants who preferred the Sweet Caporal brand for it's turkish blend, while Piedmont's were more popular in the South and Midwestern portions of the country. I don't have any knowledge of the Sovereign brands popularity, but do know that isn't wasn't anywhere near the big 2. And as for Hindu, it was only distributed in very few southern states mainly Louisiana, and Texas. Be back Brian
I find myself visiting this thread on almost a daily basis as the suppositions continue.
The depth of this Board members T-206 collections and knowledge makes it supremely possible to chat about the sets idiosyncracies with such focus.
Scot - I can't wait for the second print run of your manuscript and your analysis of the myriad of conclusions supposed here.
As an owner of a now 1/3 complete T-206 set this has been a great ride thus far for me.
Thanks for your response to my query. I suspect I will eventually wind-up in the camp that believes the color/sky differences between Ritchey 150 and Ritchey 350 are just a matter of degree, not kind. The original point made by Brian (I believe) that Ritchey Old Mill always (at least as far as we know) appears with the dove and that this suggests a 350 series print start for Old Mill is still very useful. This conforms with the fact that (at least as far as we know) 150-only subjects cannot be found with Old Mill. It will also be interesting to find-out what the breakdown between dove v. no dove for Ritchey Piedmont 350 is since that will be telling on your primacy of Piedmont theory. Rest assured that I will be tracking Ritcheys on ebay in the coming months.
Now, let's find those Ames (Hands at Chest), Ewing and Lindaman 350s (if they exist)!
Those of us who like to get down to the "nitty-gritty" of the T206 Monster really
appreciate all this data from at least 80 Forum posters and eight Forum "readers",
all of whom have not only contributed their inputs, but also their time in the process.
Ten cards....M. Brown (Cubs), Geo Brown (Chi), Burch (bat), Donlin (hands-knees),
Evers (blue sky), Pattee, Pelty (horiz), Powers, Reulbach (Cubs) and Honus Wagner
are recognized as being in the 150-only Series; and therefore, are much tougher T206
cards than most others.
In this Thread we have considered several more T206's to be in this category. After
sampling 500+ cards in this survey, we have reduced the potential candidates down
to the following 3 cards....Ames (hands/chest)....Ewing....Lindaman.
many thanks for all the attention to the details of the various arguments presented.
your 'sectionalizing' argument re: the 150 to 350 color change is most illuminative.although i don't have the pied 150 waddell, i note that my Waddell portrait sc 150 fact 30 exhibits one of the
deepest blues of any of my cards, no matter what the series. I note that you mention that you have one of four pied 150's that exhibits similarly. My
Waddell even presents with a deeper blue than my Chase pied 350 portrait.
What does the exceptionality of the blue coloring of the Waddell in your
Pied 150 portrait say about the argument that there is a deepening of the
blue color from series to series? Also does this impact your argument regarding color enhancement in the 350 series which gives rise to the clarity of the dove---so that we're saying as Scot does in a recent post that we're perhaps dealing with a matter of degree rather than of kind.
Is the Waddell significant?
OK guys, remember that song....who sang it, and what was the year ?
BARRY A.
At the risk of repeating myself....unless you have your T206 cards (or set) divided
up by Series, it is difficult to appreciate the difference in the Blue coloring between
the cards printed in the 150 Series vs the 350 or 460 Series.
The difference in the Ritchey cards on display in this Thread made me to take a better
look at my set, and I noticed the Light or Pale Blue coloring among the 153 cards in
the 150 Series. Then, I started noting a stark contrast in the Blue coloring in the
subsequent two series. The Waddell (portrait) is the only card that has a deep Blue
color in the 150 Series. I cannot explain why, perhaps it is an anamoly.
American Litho. must have changed printers or acquired a richer quality of Blue ink
when they started printing the 350 Series (and 460) cards. Some notable examples
of cards with a deep Blue color are Chase, Chase (dk cap), Chase (trophy), Clymer,
Groom, Knabe, Livingstone, Matty (dk cap), Nattress, Speaker, Thielmann, etc.
And, my point of all this, is that the sky affect we are seeing in the Ritchey card is
just the result of a difference in the printing process with respect to the application
of the Blue ink in the "350" cards. And, not a re-designed sky with clouds. And, until
we see a Ritchey with a 150 back with the "clouds in the sky", I think this "Bluer ink"
explanation is valid.
This message has been edited by tedzan on Jul 1, 2006 5:52 AM
I am back....and not surprised to see your P150 Ritchey with the "cloud effect".
As I noted in an earlier post (6/30 1:43 PM) on this thread (in response to Scot
Reader's query)....the potential for the cloud effect has always been there, and
whether it appears or not, is simply a combination of two factors, the quality of
the white cardboard and the quality of Blue ink in the printing process.
Anyhow, we have allowed ourselves to be distracted from the very important
point that you were trying to make with your initial posts of your Ritchey
cards......when the EPDG backs were introduced.
Can we conclude that the EPDG cards were concurrent with some of the 150 Series
cards, or did the EPDG cards immediately follow them into the 350 Series ?
Hi Ted,
I hope you had a great vacation... Now, back to cards.
I don't mean to be a pain, but in your earlier post you state:
"And, until
we see a Ritchey with a 150 back with the "clouds in the sky", I think this "Bluer ink"
explanation is valid."
Then I show you one and you continue to suggest it was merely ink or a paper stock problem. I'm not a printing expert, but I do know that you can't create the dove/cloud effect on the 150 or 350 card without a viod or pattern that would keep the ink from covering the entire area. If these dove/cloud's were in different places I might agree with you, but they aren't.I don't disagree that the added darker blue color of the 350 series will make the Dove/Cloud more visible, but adding dark blue to the existing colors would not create the dove/cloud. To create the same pattern of the cloud or dove in the same exact position on the card had to be done by design, not by the quality of the stock, or ink.
Ok, back to EPDG vs Old Mill. It appears from the very limited sample of less than 10 of each card that the EPDG cards have the 150 look, while all of the Old Mill's have the 350 look. That along with the fact, that none of the 150/350 short printed cards we have been tracking have been seen with Old Mill back would lead me to assume that Old Mill's were released with or shortly before the 350 series.
EPDG backs, on the other hand have been seen with several of the short printed 150/350 cards, so they must have been printed shortly after the 150 and before the 350.
Personally, I don't think the ATC had any idea how popular the promotion would become and added brands as it became apparent that there customers enjoyed the cards as much as the smokes. Otherwise, how do we have so many of them almost a hundred years later.
Happy 4th to all Brian
I only have one EPDG out of about 100 T206's, but it is a good one: Cobb red background PSA 7. As all Spanish speakers would know, El Principe de Gales translates to the Prince of Wales, as in the Queen of England's first born,Charles (Chuck) Windsor.
many thanks for the epdg data. You easily fall into the 1% category that appears to be 'the standard', with your 1 out of 100 t206's.
congrats on the 7 Cobb with epdg!
Your not being a pain.....I went out on a limb with that explanation....and now I
am on the ground. It was a soft landing, though, no problem.
At this point I think we all are mystified by this Claude Ritchey "sky" phenomena.
But, you got to give it to us, sooner or later we will "flush-out" any mysterious card.
However, we haven't seen those "350" cards of Ames, Ewing, or Lindaman....yet ?
Anyhow, I will stick to my "150 Pale Blue......350/460 Deep Blue" theory. There is a
definite distinction in these colors between Series. The T206 guys were not "skimpy"
with the Blue ink when they printed the 350/460 Series cards; as they were when
they printed the 150 Series cards.
I am still not certain where we stand on the EPDG introduction, since your initial
example of a Ritchey (EPDG) card without the "sky effect" was to be considered
a 150 benchmark. But, then doesn't the appearance of a P150 Ritchey muck-up
your above argument ?
Hi Ted,
This is post number 300 on this thread, give us a few more days and we'll catch Barry.....
I will post some more info on the "ink theory" a little later, and explain why I believe the EPDG evidence still suggest an earlier print date than the Old Mills. Talk to you soon.
Being way too busy to try and catch up with this 300 post thread, I will just respond to the original post and hope someone still cares. Of the over 300 T206 cards I own, I have 4 EPDG backed cards:
By the way, I collected my T206 purposely trying to avoid the less common backs, as I was more interested in the fronts, and the rarer backs meant extra expenditure, but still ended up with four.
......
Now that I have had a chance to 'scan' through some of the other posts, maybe I will get back with what backs I have for those 8 cards being tracked.
Brian
This message has been edited by brianp-beme on Jul 5, 2006 10:14 AM
Those of us who like to get down to the "nitty-gritty" of the T206 Monster really
appreciate all this data from at least 80 Forum posters and eight Forum "readers",
all of whom have not only contributed their inputs, but also their time in the process.
Ten cards....M. Brown (Cubs), Geo Brown (Chi), Burch (bat), Donlin (hands-knees),
Evers (blue sky), Pattee, Pelty (horiz), Powers, Reulbach (Cubs) and Honus Wagner
are recognized as being in the 150-only Series; and therefore, are much tougher T206
cards than most others.
In this Thread we have considered several more T206's to be in this category. After
sampling 500+ cards in this survey, we have reduced the potential candidates down
to the following 3 cards....Ames (hands/chest)....Ewing....Lindaman.
NOTE....I've added to the list Durham, simply because I just acquired my 1st P350 card
of him. Durham is one tough card, and all 22 cards I have seen of him have been 150's.
I am curious what backs are on your Durham cards ?
I am expanding my "Piedmont-only" set to include all the cards we have surveyed in this Thread
that we have initially considered as "new" possible 150-only cards; but, have eventually appeared
also as P350 (exclusively).....Durham, Tom Jones, Lundgren, Schulte, etc.
I will scan thru this Thread and compile a list of these particular cards; however, I would feel more
confident if I could derive this list from your data and analysis. Is it possible that you could furnish
me such a list. This Durham card that I just acquired prompted me to expand my set further, as this
card recalled that your data revealed one P350 Durham from 26 samples. I found this really amazing
as it closely coincided with my 22 (+ this P350) samples of Durham in 25 years of looking at T206's.
Thanks much for whatever info you can provide me.....Ted Z
Hi Ted,
I just sent you my survey data; please check your email. As far as the seven potential 150-onlys from my data are concerned [Ames (Hands at Chest), Doyle (Throwing), Ewing, Jones (St. Louis), Lindaman, Lundgren (Chicago), Schulte (Front View)], I have only "scratched" Jones (St. Louis) and Lundgren (Chicago) conclusively. I know others on this thread have spoken of Doyle (Throwing) and Schulte (Front View) with a Piedmont 350 back, but no scans have been forthcoming on those so far. I don't mean to attack anyone's credibility but memories fade with time and mistakes are possible.
Scot
OK.....Guys and Gals.....Now that Leon has declared that we should get back "ON-TOPIC",
let's continue more "meaningful" Vintage Threads that add to our knowledge of this hobby.
Rather, than ones that just stir up divisive controversy among us.
THANK YOU....LEON....for finally locking that thread.....I hope you threw away the key.
Updated 7/17/06....a few more inputs from "readers" are added here.
It appears as if we have "mined" all the available inputs from members,
so perhaps, this is the final tally to be posted. It was a great run......
a very big....Thanks....for all who have contributed to this survey.
OK guys....Let's get "Meaningful"....instead of "Physical" (Olivia Newt John).
I came across a Burch (batting) T206 with a brown HINDU back. There aren't too
many of these 150-only cards with HINDU backs....in fact they are "scarcer than
hen's teeth".
Here again is the list of the 9 cards in the set that are 150-only, which can pos-
sibly be found with HINDU backs....
150-only card................HINDU
Geo.Brown (Chicago).........1
M.Brown (Cubs)................1
Burch (batting).................1
Donlin (fldg).....................2
Evers (blue sky)................1
Pattee.............................0
Pelty (horiz).....................1
Powers............................1
Reulbach (Cubs)................2
Check your cards again and let's have your inputs....but, I do not expect too many
....as I said they are very scarce.
T-Rex Ted
This message has been edited by tedzan on Jul 25, 2006 1:19 PM This message has been edited by tedzan on Jul 25, 2006 8:52 AM
Barry....You will be interested in knowing that a possible EPDG back exists
with one of these cards; and, I am trying to track it down. This will be very
unusual.
Thanks Drew and Jim for your inputs, they are duly noted here.
I came across a Burch (batting) T206 with a brown HINDU back. There aren't too
many of these 150-only cards with HINDU backs....in fact they are "scarcer than
hen's teeth".
Here again is the list of the 9 cards in the set that are 150-only, which can pos-
sibly be found with HINDU backs....
150-only card................HINDU
Geo.Brown (Chicago).........2
M.Brown (Cubs)................2
Burch (batting).................2
Donlin (fldg).....................2
Evers (blue sky)................1
Pattee.............................0
Pelty (horiz).....................1
Powers............................2
Reulbach (Cubs)................2
Check your cards again and let's have your inputs....but, I do not expect too many
....as I said they are very scarce.
I'm leaving for Cooperstown and will be back Aug 1st.....so, don't stop providing
your inputs on this subject. It has come to my attention that there are also very
rare, but nevertheless, possible EPDG backs in this group of cards.
Check-out your T206's for HINDU or EPDG backs on these 9 cards.
I came across a Burch (batting) T206 with a brown HINDU back. There aren't too
many of these 150-only cards with HINDU backs....in fact they are "scarcer than
hen's teeth".
Here again is the list of the 9 cards in the set that are 150-only, which can pos-
sibly be found with HINDU backs.....and perhaps an EPDG.
150-only card................HINDU........EPDG
Geo.Brown (Chicago).........2
M.Brown (Cubs-Throw)......2
Burch (batting).................2
Donlin (fldg).....................3
Evers (blue sky)................1
Pattee.............................0
Pelty (horiz).....................1
Powers............................2
Reulbach (Cubs)................2
Have fun at the National, guys.
T-Rex Ted
This message has been edited by tedzan on Jul 27, 2006 10:48 AM
okay... since this post now has over 300 replies --- I don't want to be left out.
My results won't really help the scientific survey - because I used to exclusively buy Polar Bears....
I have one EPDG from my set(No big three)(yet) It is Groom.
I concur with the listing of cards that are found on 150 only
Was there any more info you are looking for to help in your
research. At one time I had two sets of T206 and as I sold off the 2nd set years ago I also sold many of the tougher and rarer backs as I was content to just have the set and I was
using the money for other purchases.
I prefer to see the various discussions coming under a general research rubric dealing with difficult T206 backs. I think that the various topics
have ,minimally, an interstitial connection (more in the medical sense than
in the journalistic sense), whether we're dealing with EPDG,Hindu,Piedmont
150 only, the 150-350 progression,etc.
Even the Ritchey discussion,though ostensibly an excursus, did much to
illuminate the 150-350 progression issue.
I guess, for me, the bottom line has been a profound appreciation for the wealth of Backs research and
the exceptional collegiality.
Now, hurry back from Cooperstown, TRex and update the data page.
Yes, it has.....but that has been a good thing. This Thread started digressing (or
better yet, expanding) to other backs very early when I first responded with my
Carl Lundgren (Cubs) with an EPDG back.
That very input was the spark which ignited a "nuclear fission" of responses to this
Thread. And, given the nature of the T206 set with all it's front/back permutations,
I am not in the least surprised that Barry's original topic has grown to this level.
Perhaps, each subset of topics should have been the subjects of new Threads. In
any event, here we are and I think Barry and I should consider posting a new thread
that summarizes all the noteworthy facts that have resulted in this "monster" thread.
Here goes another digression.......have you ever noticed the difference in the
sky/clouds effect on McQuillan (throwing) cards as a function of 150 vs 350 ?
My P150 has a light blue sky with just a subtle hint of clouds. Now check out
the sky/cloud effect on this SC350 one on ebay.....
can't believe we two dinosaurs are still up doing the research!
i just checked my Mcquillan (ball in hand) Piedmont 350 and the clouds
are clearly delineated and vibrantly white---like the one you suggest looking
at on ebay.
it's very reminiscent of the ritchey discussion---
sure continues to clarify the 150-350 progression issue.
whatcha think, brian?
going to bed. but will be back doing the research in the morning!
Hi Ted, and Barry,
Yes, I have checked the clouds on the McQuillian card, but upon further observation, I didn't see as big of a difference from series to series. There are other cards with differences too, but I've got to goo to work. later Brian
Given enough time, we will we see Piedmont 350 backs for Ames, Doyle and Ewing ?
It's been 2 full months and 600+ inputs (which in effect reflect many 1000's of T206's
in members' collections) and these three cards are still hanging in there as possible
"150-only" candidates.
Barry
Also....gone un-noticed, your Thread has now exceeded the "infamous" Barry Bonds'
one.
And amazingly, this was achieved without any of the usual "war-ring factions" bet-
ween members....that escalate other Threads to this level of responses.
It's a credit to all the members of this Forum that participated in this exercise.
Ted,
Ewing is the one I'm most holding out hope for as a 150-only. There was an earlier poster who thought he recalled having Doyle (Throwing) in 350 and I have a faint recollection (though could be my memory tricking me) of having seen Ames (HAC) in 350 a few years back. Still, I'm not giving up on any of these three--or Schulte (Front View)--absent hard proof of existence with 350. To me that means a scan. Another interesting issue is how many 150/350 subjects exist with Piedmont 350 and no other 350 back. I suspect this is true of many. Care to start a new 400-post thread?
Scot
The Ewing is interesting in the fact that there are EPDG backs but appear to have no other backs in the 350s. Did we do a tracking of the Ewing card? What was the latest count?
Speaking about our "little ole buddy"....Wildfire Schulte
You have to check this out.....a PSA Schulte (Cubs) has a BIN of $2000. Where do
these crazy prices end ? There is no limit. Now let us see if someone will buy or bid
on this card ? Incidently, it is incorrectly identified with a Piedmont back.
Lee and Scot
YES.....the Ewing card appears to defy "the rule of thumb"....that EPDG cards must
also have been issued in the 350 series. But, have we definitely proven this "law" ?
Hi Ted,
Quit picking on my listing.... Even though you are right I did list the back as Piedmont instead of Sweet Cap. That's what happens when you get in a hurry. Besides, try finding this card in high grade, there are only 6 cards graded higher and I sold a 6 several months ago for 1100.00.
I really don't want to sell the card, but needed to list a few items on dump day, so I threw Schulte in the bunch.
Be well Brian
PS Thanks for helping me fix my listing error, but I'm hurt that you didn't know my EBAY Id after over 350 post on this thread......
This message has been edited by BRIANKW on Aug 5, 2006 9:46 AM
Very, very sorry.....the very last person I would want to offend is you. I just did
not realize this was your ebay handle.....I guess I should be better informed.
And, more power to you if you can get the big $$$ for this card. I am of the "old
school" (just like you) and can't fathom the big bucks that some of these higher
graded cards are bringing in, nowadays.
I recently sold a Lajoie (port), GAI 5, for $800 and thought that was "crazy". So,
do not mind me. I think I still belong back in the "paleolithic era" when it comes
to these modern day prices on Tobacco cards.
Incidently, I've the same Schulte with a SC150 back in at least Ex condition (but
ungraded)....what can I get for it ?
T-Rex TED
This message has been edited by tedzan on Aug 5, 2006 10:18 AM
Hi Ted,
I wasn't offended, but embarrassed for listing it with a Piedmont back instead of a Sweet Cap. Maybe I should have listed it as having a Piedmont 350 back and it would be sold by now.
You bring out a good point regarding certain 150 Series players that very infrequently
appear with Piedmont 350-only backs (e.g..Durham, Jones, Lindaman, Lundgren, etc.).
Actually, as our multiple surveys in this Thread indicate, these select P350 cards are
quite rare.
Therefore, are you suggesting that these cards (if they are accurately identified) are
in a class of their own and indeed warrant a higher premium in their value ?
T-Rex TED
This message has been edited by tedzan on Aug 5, 2006 5:50 PM
The last 21 posts have alternated between us four guys (with also one by Lee B.); so,
I'm for one of us initiating a new Thread. Scot suggested I start a Piedmont 350-only
survey for certain cards that were in the 150 Series. I like that idea and I'll initiate it.
I've only had time to scan this over the past weeks, finally will post my input.
Out of 642 T206s, only one EPDG, Chance batting.
I've responded to the 150/350 search on a separate thread (all 150s).
I should mention that my original collection was passed down from a family who played baseball in Fredericksburg, VA in the right time. The four boys formed one collection. It consisted of 526 cards: 4 OM and the rest Piedmont Fac 25.
So, out of the 116 cards I've purchased, there is 1 EPDG.
many thanks, tdc, for the information.
your 388 total to 4 epdg ratio falls in line with our 1% figure which has
proven to be pretty consistent throughout this thread's research.
if you haven't done so already, please report any findings re:
seldom seen 206 backs on Ted Z.'s thread.
all the best,
Barry
i see that you have responded to TRex, tdc; many thanks. B
This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Aug 12, 2006 12:13 AM
Current Topic - T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
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