I am the co-owner of the card you guys are discussing. I find it disturbing that you guys will discuss a topic without the total facts on what you are discussing. I see that there are a lot of player hater in the house, full of jokes but know facts. For its fact that stand up in a court of law. Let's get to the facts.
1. If my card is a reprint. What company reprinted my card ( topps, dover, honus wagner estate, etc...) All the reprints out their have a orgin ( Companies that printed them ) If you call it a reprint then WHO REPRINTED THE CARD.
2. Do you guys know the differents between grading a card and authenticating a card. Grading isn't authenticating check it out. Call up PSA and as Joe Orlando (which I have) what is done to authenticate a old card. He should say two things are done to check the authenticty of the card. Which he told me. 1. check the print 2. check the paper. We got both done by the world top experts (CIA TRUSTED OUR PAPER GUY AND HIS WORK THEN HE MUST BE THE MAN ). Our card is the first in history to be authenticated thru science.
3. Are the two Honus Wagner cards in coppertown graded. No. So why isn't anyone attacking there cards. HUMMM. If we choose not to have my card graded doesn't mean that it not real.
4. Why is everyone struck on the front on the card. Talk about the back. Bill Mastro said in a newspaper article ran back in 2004 cincinnati enquier, about this card ( Bill Mestro stated: ALL reprints have black ink on the back and ALL real t206 piedmont have blue ink) well guess what our cards has blue ink. O but lets not stop there, lets talk about the FACTORY No.25, 2d. DIST. VA. FKw from t206museum.com said NO and I repeat No FACTORY DIST. # =REPRINT.. I have the print out FKw. You said it so stand behind it. Don't change your words when it come to our card, remember your words NO FACTORY #=REPRINT on back of ALL real T206. I have the proof, FKw.
5. I would say most of you guys in this chat room are big fan of the PSA-8 Honus Wagner. But do you know the history behind that card. The PSA-8 card has been call a fake, reprint, etc.. No one wants to talk about that topic. I guess that because PSA graded it and you guys don't question big companies, like they don't make mistake or do dirt. Have you guys being keeping up with the news on big companies and PSA lawsuit on forgery signature. Check it out for your self and you guys have so much faith in PSA and other grading companies. It's big business, did you know and if you don't then ask some body. So did PSA authenticate the PSA-8 card the way our card has been authenticated SCIENTIFICALLY. NO and if so show me the paper work PSA on the PSA-8 Honus Wagner card (fiber test, EDS, etc..). Oh lets not say you guys don't believe in science, I bet when you get very ill you will believe in science to make you better.
6. Some of you in the chat room is so quick to say, " Why don't they just send the card in for grading". I throw the question back at you. Would you. HELL NO YOU WOULDN'T, SO STOP TRIPPING ON US FOR NOT DOING THE SAME!!!!
7. No one on this planet of ours know the total truth behind the T206 card set. Also the TOBACCO CO., did not print the cards, do your research. If you know then come with printing documents, printing plates, the name of the press the cards were printed on, the printing companies name, etc... Do you have that info., FKw, PSA, etc... If you do please share that info., with the public. Oh you don't have it. So why hate on our card.
8. For some of you that are looking at the color of our skin. I say turn the lights off and hear the facts.
I know the reponse are going to be full of jokes, off the facts at hand. But hey some people like to deal with what they think instead of what they know. I will say, if you guys only knew what has been said behind the seen. Remember there are three sides to a story. Our side, PSA, FKw, etc.. side and the TRUTH!!! I know after I post this, the jokes will fly and the hating will continue. But hey some people have a lot of time on there hands. I guess you guys do believe in W.M.D.'s
All that wish us will, thank you and all that don't may The most High bless you. Thank you for your time.
This message has been edited by TheCard on Aug 8, 2006 7:46 PM This message has been edited by TheCard on Aug 8, 2006 6:41 PM
pulling the race card is ludacris...noone here cares about the color of your skin...we only care about baseball cards. Most here are experts in the field of vintage baseball cards and can tell a fake just by looking at it. You card is a bad bad fake. Anyone with some old stock...a laserprinter and a computer can make a reprint of a vintage card...so yes...all reprints have origins...but the permutations are limitless in this day and age.
The man came on and spoke his peace. He is obviously sincere in his belief. While you, me and everyone else on this board may have a differing opinion there does not seem to be any way to convince him otherwise. Just wish him luck because he will need it.
Go to Bill Mastro and offer it to him. He's a wealthy man who buys
T206 Wagners. If Mastro thinks it's real, graded or ungraded, he'll
come up with fair money for the card. You can contact him through
Mastro's web site and, if the card is real, the sale should be
completed in days, perhaps same day.
If your card is real and you're looking to sell, you should have no
problem finding a private buyer. Contact Dan Hall or Sotheby's
or Rob Lifson or Joshua Leland. I can promise you that they would
love to hear from an owner of an authentic T206 Wagner, and could find
a buyer of an authentic T206 Wagner in days.
It doesn't matter what anyone on this or other boards says, if
the card is as real as you claim, it should take days to find
a buyer. Finding a willing buyer for an authentic T206 Honus Wagner
is about as hard as finding a willing eater of a double cheeseburger
at fat camp.
This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 8, 2006 7:41 PM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 8, 2006 7:37 PM
Even though I don't post much... as a T206 set collector, I feel the need to respond to this thread.
In your intro, you state: "I see that there are a lot of player hater in the house, full of jokes but know facts." You are very correct! This board does joke and we do know facts!
#1. Anyone can create a reprint with a quality scanner and laser printer... It didn't have to be a company. (FACT)
#2. The back of the card might be authentic! There is a process called skinning, where the back of a card is removed and put back together with a new front. In our money-hungry society, it is unfortunate that people try to manipulate cards for their financial benefit. There are many examples of common cards with rare backs (uzit, drum, etc) that have been skinned so that the back can be reattached to a more valuable front such as Ty Cobb or Christy Mathewson. (FACT)
#3. The cards in Cooperstown have fronts and backs that are consistent with other T206 cards. The front of your card is not. (FACT)
#4. Most of the original reprints were printed using black ink. That is true, but like I said earlier, anyone can create a reprint at home on their computer using a high-res scanner and good printer. (FACT)
#5. I am a biologist. I believe in the power of science. I truly believe that the back of the card came from an original T206. I believe that the fiber samples you had analyzed came from the back of the card. Would those samples come back with your findings, yes. Does that mean the entire card was printed in 1909-11, no. (FACT)
#6. Yes, I would... I would have high-res scans made of the card and make sure I got the same card back once graded. I live 30 minutes from SGC headquarters and would not hesitate to add thousands of dollars of value to the card. Plus, these big companies (PSA and SGC) have a lot at stake reputation-wise if they were to lose the most valuable card on earth. (FACT)
#7. Many of the people on the board know about the printing process of T206 cards. A contributor to the board, who can identify himself if he chooses, spent years researching this set and it's history and has compiled a 74 page report on these cards. (FACT)
In conclusion... Do I think the back of your card is from a real T206? Yes... Do I think the front is the original front of the card? Unfortunately, no.
I have no doubt that the folks here, fresh from "copperstown" and dinner with "Mestro" will have no problems buying into this one.
Edited to say: But seriously: You could have walked the card into the National two weeks ago and had any authentication company and any of a number of top-level people look it over, in your presence. That you did not and have steadfastly refused to engage any known expert in the card field to review this supposedly authentic Wagner speaks volumes about the quality of the item in question. You are a charlatan, a huckster, a con artist of the first magnitude. Like any good grifter, you strive to create the illusion of legitimacy to fool the vast majority of the people out there who lack the requisite sophistication and experience to ask the right questions but might have the money to buy into the dream. We aren't those folks. Do not come into our house expecting to run a line of bull about the steps taken to authenticate your Wagner and at the same time dismissing us as a group. You decided to come into this forum and present your obviously faked card and your transparently fraudulent effort to market it; you take the heat for it.
This message has been edited by boxingcardman on Aug 8, 2006 7:40 PM
1. It's not necessary for someone to identify WHO reprinted something to say it's a reprint. If I get a Mona Lisa for $8 at a starving artists sale, I can pretty much say it's not a DaVinci even though I have no clue who painted the reproduction.
2. Obviously the grading companies use some methods to confirm at least broad ranges of age. But there are also visual cues used to detect alterations and other reasons why old ink and old paper can be combined to make new, but fake, cards.
3. Hall of Fame exhibits generally have pretty good provenance, and no one is trying to sell them for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Also, if the same visual cues were present to suggest that the HOF cards were reprints, that discussion would be the longest thread in the forum. It's not the lack of grading, it's the physical appearance of the card. Lack of grading falls more in the challenge category.
4. One of the posts in the other thread suggested that someone put skinned a real T206, and put the genuine Piedmont back onto a reprint front. You wouldn't be the first person that's happened to. It would explain the correct color easily.
5. The Gretzky PSA 8 Wagner is actually the subject of huge, huge controversy. Do a search in this forum for Bill Heitman, or William Heitman (might be Heitmann?) and check out the thread and the controversy surrounding exactly that card.
6. Personally, I'm with you on this one. Not that I wouldn't let it get graded, but I guarantee if I'm ever in possession of a million dollar piece of paper, it's not leaving my sight without someone handing me a million dollar deposit first. Not sure if that's the true motive here, but I can't debate the logic. I'd think the grading companies would HAVE to have some way to accommodate an owner's natural desire to keep a mega-card in sight.
7. Who cares who printed the originals?
8. I couldn't care less what color you are. If you were white and in this position I wouldn't have a single change in my opinion or stance. I'm not an expert by a long shot. But from the scans posted and the appearance of the font used in the front caption, I wouldn't spend $10 on any such T206 on ebay, no matter what race or creed the seller was.
Just my two cents worth. And I wasn't 100% on the WMD from the start, and now that's just a sad joke.
I will answer your questions for you eventhough I really doubt you will listen to any of my advice.
In answer to your questions:
1. NO, not all reprints have company names on them. You are correct that many companies do print their name on it but I know for a fact that many do not. I used to work for a print shop and printed up several t206 wagners on older paper (pre-1930) to use as joke for a dealer friend of mine. They were reprints without any company mark. I also destroyed them all after the joke. This was in 1989. Your assertion is that it must have a company attatched to it and that is incorrect. For all any of us know, you printed the cards.
2. Authentication is not grading. But I disagree again your statement that grading is not authentication. In order to grade an item, you must first establish vailidity of the item (ask Joe Orlando). If I were to hand you a peach and tell you that I graded it a AAA10 orange. Would you believe the grading company? Of course not. It would have no validity because the grading company did not authenticate it first as a peach. Grading companies try to pride themselves on not only their grading standards but recognizing the product they are handed. (BTW, the article you sight further in your comments has Joe Orlando clearly stating that they authenticate first, grade second).
3. I agree with you that the two are not graded but many baseball card experts have verified the cards and they have provenance (a record of who, when, and how they were obtained). And before you say it, remember that provenance needs to date back a great deal, not some mall show a few years ago. Call Cooperstown and ask them, they will tell you exactly where the cards came from.
4. You misquoted your own article...Here is all Bill said in that article, "Bill Mastro says the card is almost certainly a reprint. The P in "PITTSBURG" should be slightly larger than the other letters, he says. It's the same size as the rest. "That's the only discrepancy," Edwards counters. "That's what makes it unique. One of one."
If anyone wants to read the entire article it is here:
BTW, many of the reprints including the dover ones do in fact have the factory number. Even my reprint mentioned above had the factory and state.
5. Actually, we question that card all the time. I myself have handled that card and feel that it was trimmed slightly. If you do a search on our site you will find us pulling apart that Wagner fairly regularly. Not to mention bashing every grading company. We are all tough critics of grading companies. Heck, some of our members even sued a grading company.
As to science, we believe, if you read some of the responses we tried to contact your "experts" but to no avial. Also, your experts do not seem to have the needed expertise just from reading their resumes.
6. Most of us would have it graded. It can be done fairly safely at onsite grading visits at shows that are probably held in your area fairly regualarly. It is safe to say that we might not send it in for grading but if you are that certain it is real, take a $100 plane flight to PSA and get it graded. Heck, I would pitch in some money just to fly you out here to get it graded at the company of your choice--PSA or SGC.
7. This is the place for most of the information. In the past few years, I have learned more on how these cards were printed, by who, where, and when. The Net54 guys really do know more about T206 cards then just about anyone else and are often consulted on articles, grading, research, pricing, etc. We hate on your card because it is an obvious fraud and your hurt our hobby when you try to run an auction stating it as real.
8. I see no skin color and for you to say that is actually an insult. Black, white, red, yellow, purple, if your Wagner was real, we would buy it in a heartbeat. Give up the race card. It just hurts your case.
As a last thought, I am also saddened to see that you did not sign your name. You own your card and your thoughts, sign your name so we know which owner we are dealing with. No jokes above, I answered your questions fairly and thoughtfully and hopefully you will read my response with an open mind and take it to heart.
Go directly to jail. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200. AND QUIT TRYING TO SELL THAT LOUSY FAKE.
<<I am the co-owner of the card you guys are discussing. I find it disturbing that you guys will discuss a topic without the total facts on what you are discussing. I see that there are a lot of player hater in the house, full of jokes but know facts. For its fact that stand up in a court of law. Let's get to the facts.>>
<<1. If my card is a reprint. What company reprinted my card ( topps, dover, honus wagner estate, etc...) All the reprints out their have a orgin ( Companies that printed them ) If you call it a reprint then WHO REPRINTED THE CARD.>> It wasn't Topps. It wasn't Dover - they were honest about making reprints and labelled them. It wasn't the Honus Wagner estate. But it could have been just about anyone with a laser printer or high-resolution copier.
<<2. Do you guys know the differents between grading a card and authenticating a card. Grading isn't authenticating check it out. Call up PSA and as Joe Orlando (which I have) what is done to authenticate a old card. He should say two things are done to check the authenticty of the card. Which he told me. 1. check the print 2. check the paper. We got both done by the world top experts (CIA TRUSTED OUR PAPER GUY AND HIS WORK THEN HE MUST BE THE MAN ). Our card is the first in history to be authenticated thru science. >>
Your paper guy only authenticated paper he took samples of as having no characteristics inconsistent with pre-1921 paper. Your printing guy is a sick joke. The moron doesn't even know the names of the colleges he attended, and his phone number is disconnected. Is he also one of your drinking buddies? That you call him "the world top experts" shows you to be pure slime.
<<3. Are the two Honus Wagner cards in coppertown graded. No. So why isn't anyone attacking there cards. HUMMM. If we choose not to have my card graded doesn't mean that it not real.>>
No one is trying to sell the Wagner cards in COOPERSTOWN. At least learn the name of the place. Or are you Arnie Schwed, who can't spell either? Those cards also look real and have strong provenance.
<<4. Why is everyone struck on the front on the card. Talk about the back. Bill Mastro said in a newspaper article ran back in 2004 cincinnati enquier, about this card ( Bill Mestro stated: ALL reprints have black ink on the back and ALL real t206 piedmont have blue ink) well guess what our cards has blue ink. O but lets not stop there, lets talk about the FACTORY No.25, 2d. DIST. VA. FKw from t206museum.com said NO and I repeat No FACTORY DIST. # =REPRINT.. I have the print out FKw. You said it so stand behind it. Don't change your words when it come to our card, remember your words NO FACTORY #=REPRINT on back of ALL real T206. I have the proof, FKw.>>
FKU. The front of the card bears two obvious signs it's not real - there is no black border surrounding the picture, and the typeface is wrong. You are also lying about what Bill Mastro stated. He never said that all reprints have black ink. Someone reprinting a card can easily use blue ink. Your total inability to handle logic is also evident when you attempt to use the presence of a factory designation as proof the card is real. Fakes can have it too. The creator of the fake just has to pay some attention to detail.
And since I agree with the people who have already given their reasons why the card was probably created by skinning a common Piedmont T-206 and pasting a fake front onto it, I'll just point out that the back would look right in that circumstance.
<<5. I would say most of you guys in this chat room are big fan of the PSA-8 Honus Wagner. But do you know the history behind that card. The PSA-8 card has been call a fake, reprint, etc.. No one wants to talk about that topic. I guess that because PSA graded it and you guys don't question big companies, like they don't make mistake or do dirt. Have you guys being keeping up with the news on big companies and PSA lawsuit on forgery signature. Check it out for your self and you guys have so much faith in PSA and other grading companies. It's big business, did you know and if you don't then ask some body. So did PSA authenticate the PSA-8 card the way our card has been authenticated SCIENTIFICALLY. NO and if so show me the paper work PSA on the PSA-8 Honus Wagner card (fiber test, EDS, etc..). Oh lets not say you guys don't believe in science, I bet when you get very ill you will believe in science to make you better. >>
Who has called the Gretzky-McNall Wagner a fake or a reprint? There have been accusations that the card was trimmed or cut recently from a strip of T-206 cards, but I have never heard anyone call it a fake - until you.
Your card has not been scientifically authenticated. Arnie Schwed, who "authenticated" the printing, is no scientist. He is a buffoon and a quack.
<<6. Some of you in the chat room is so quick to say, " Why don't they just send the card in for grading". I throw the question back at you. Would you. HELL NO YOU WOULDN'T, SO STOP TRIPPING ON US FOR NOT DOING THE SAME!!!!>>
We would. Even the people here who hate grading companies would.
<<7. No one on this planet of ours know the total truth behind the T206 card set. Also the TOBACCO CO., did not print the cards, do your research. If you know then come with printing documents, printing plates, the name of the press the cards were printed on, the printing companies name, etc... Do you have that info., FKw, PSA, etc... If you do please share that info., with the public. Oh you don't have it. So why hate on our card. >>
Your card is an obvious fake. I don't have to eat an egg to know it's rotten. Smelling it does the trick.
<<8. For some of you that are looking at the color of our skin. I say turn the lights off and hear the facts. >>
The color of your skin is only relevant insofar as it is something you have attempted to use as a weapon, by making ridiculous accusations of racism. The facts are that your card bears multiple characteristics very different from every known real T-206 and looks artificially aged.
<<I know the reponse are going to be full of jokes, off the facts at hand. But hey some people like to deal with what they think instead of what they know. I will say, if you guys only knew what has been said behind the seen. Remember there are three sides to a story. Our side, PSA, FKw, etc.. side and the TRUTH!!! I know after I post this, the jokes will fly and the hating will continue. But hey some people have a lot of time on there hands. I guess you guys do believe in W.M.D.'s >>
You are a joke. The closest thing you have said to the truth anywhere in your rant is to implicitly acknowledge that your side is not the truth.
<<All that wish us will, thank you and all that don't may The most High bless you. Thank you for your time.>>
You had better hope there isn't a Most High, because if there is, you're headed for eternal damnation. Lying is a sin.
I've been off the board a few hours only to see that the s**t has finally hit the fan. To the owner of this T206 Wagner: what I think should be done here is the police should be called and perhaps you and your buddy should be arrested for dealing in fraudulent material. I'm not a lawyer but I believe a 300K item falls under the category of grand larceny. And if you think that this is an issue about race, then not only are you a thief but you are also an idiot. Your card is fake, everyone knows that, and I believe you do too. Quit trying to play everybody for your fool!!
You clearly sound very convinced that your card is real. Most of the people on this forum have handled hundreds, if not thousands, of T206 cards, and understand more minute details about these cards than anyone you'll ever meet. They are convinced - as am I - that the card is not real.
This means that you will never realize the kind of sale price for this card that you hope to. So why not just hang onto it and enjoy it? It's developed a lot of notoriety, and as a result has become part of the hobby legends. How cool it is that you've been able to generate so much publicity over it! Good for you! Keep the card, pass it on to your children, and enjoy it!
The more I think about this the angrier I get. You feel that no collector would dare hand over a valuable card to a grading service lest they damage or steal it. Well guess what- EVERY COLLECTOR who owned a Wagner would give it to PSA,SGC, or GAI to have it graded and authenticated. Not a few collectors, not some collectors, but ALL COLLECTORS! Except you two clowns because you have it all worked out. You know more than the grading services, and you know more than all the advanced collectors on this board. Well you know what, you do know a good con when you see one, but you don't know anything about baseball cards. I've spent the last 25 years of my life studying them, and a blind man could tell your card is a fake. Not only are you two going to end up in a lot of trouble but you will take the auction house down with you too. What a foolish and stubborn pair the both of you are. This is just shameful.
What a laugher. Dude, here's some advice: learn to read and write and get a J-O-B. It's not your black skin that causes everyone out here to point out what Stevie Wonder can see: you're a fraud, your card is weak and Whitey isn't the one who is keeping you down--it's your lack of integrity (and a lousy reprint). Since your card is presently apparently worth nothing, what do you have to lose to send it in to a major grading company? If it comes back as a fake, you could always blame it on The Man!
Here are the terms of the auction taken directly from Ebay. I looked at every feedback from the seller (Member Profile: connellyauctions (49) and he has never sold one baseball card. Just goes to show....nobody in the hobby will touch this on the selling or buying end. This is pretty comical at this point.
1.POSITIVE IDENTIFICATION is required to bid.
2.BUYER?S PREMIUM: 12%. (17% for online Internet bidders will be added to final bidding price). A 2% discount will be given for cash, checks or bank wire transfers. We reserve the right to hold items paid for by check until payment clears our bank.
3.LIMIT OF $5,000 on phone or Internet bidding purchased by credit card when card is not present.
4.ALL PROPERTY IS SOLD as is, where is, as described.
5.ABSENTEE BIDS are entered in a competitive manner.
6.PROPERTY MAY BE WITHDRAWN from the sale for any reason.
7.SMALL ITEMS that may be shipped by the U.S. Postal Service, can, at our discretion, be packed and shipped for a fee. Please call for a price quote.
8.ALL MEASUREMENTS are approximate.
9.OUR DESCRIPTIONS are estimates, call for precise description.
10.AUCTIONEER RESERVES the right to reject any bid. Auctioneer?s decision is final.
11.RESERVES, when used, will be no higher than the listed starting bid.
12.NEW YORK STATE SALES TAX of 8% will be added to the selling price unless NYS Resale Certificate is provided. Items shipped out of state are exempt.
13.PAYMENT for the selling price is due at the end of the auction; all buyers not present at the auction must pay within 5 business days.
14.OTHER CONDITIONS are announced at the beginning of the auction and take precedence over all other terms.
This message has been edited by babybingbaseball on Aug 8, 2006 9:33 PM
Your long-winded pathetic defense tells me without even seeing the card that it is fake. Why would you waste your time defending the authenticity of a real card? And by the way, I have seen the card; quite possibly the worst fake that I have seen in some time. A couple bits of advice (1) don't play the race card, a scammer is scammer, white, black, green, or purple (2) don't drop the soap.
I wonder how many bidders have been approved by the auction house thus far?
Did you read this blurb from the Daily News? Has anybody heard of this guy Mike Mango?
Bob Connelly, a tall man with gray hair and the understated confidence of a country gentleman, pulled a Lucite block out of the pocket of his suit jacket last week and plopped it on a glass table in an office 20 floors above Park Ave. South. He sat with sports memorabilia broker Mike Mangasarian, who is better known as Mike Mango and has long dark hair and a big bushy mustache that make him look a little like Salvador Dali.
A T206 Honus Wagner card - the most sought-after baseball card in the world - was embedded in the Lucite. Approximately 50 T206 Wagners are believed to exist, and even cards in shabby condition sell for more than $100,000. A collector that Mangasarian wouldn't identify hired him to check out the card and report back his opinion. As a crew from HBO's "Real Sports" looked on with cameras rolling, Mangasarian picked up the block and studied it carefully. "I figure it's a strong four," Connelly said, referring to the mark the grade on a scale from one to 10 he thinks it would receive from a card-grading service. "What's your opinion?" "I agree," Mangasarian replied. "It's in that ballpark area." And just like that, the most controversial baseball card in recent history gained instant credibility. Connelly, an auctioneer and appraiser from Binghamton, thinks the card could be worth up to $850,000 and plans to sell it at an Aug. 15 auction. The card is owned by John Cobb and Ray Edwards, two Cincinnati men who have waged a long and frustrating battle with the memorabilia establishment to prove the card is real. Cobb bought the card in the 1980s for $1,800.
You'll notice Mango never says the card is real. He just agrees with Connelly and says it's a "4." I guess if you have an office on the 20th floor in NYC you have credibility.
What do I know, I'm writing this from my basement.
This message has been edited by uffda51 on Aug 8, 2006 9:48 PM
but that doesn't make me Wang's fiancée in Big Trouble in Little China........ While being black does make life an undeniable more difficult road to hoe in these franchised western capitalist societies found ubiquitously around the globe - equally true is the standards, and ethics, and graciousness, and humble grace displayed by all those who wish to truly rise above such base bigotry by the ignorant, the only true path to greatness, and glory, and god's respect.
You've displayed none of those attributes with your daring and lunacy to make profit, the longer you play this game out - the more people that will know you for it, and the higher the hills you will have to climb the rest of the days of your life to earn that respect, and power, that you so clearly desire.
The card, well, that's just a piece of c**p and everyone in the hobby knows it. Let it go.
Bruce- that's one nasty newspaper article. I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone. If 900 experts told these two guys the card is fake, their response would be that all 900 are wrong, jealous, or just racists. Why are we even wasting our time here?
This whole thing is like a bad car wreck. You just can't help yourself, you have to look. Just a few comments.
Your experts ARE NOT EXPERTS in the BASEBALL CARD FIELD. Plain and simple.
The EXPERTS in this field are all here, or read this board. The people who would but this card if it was real are here. Your customer base are the one's that say it is a reprint.
Not one of the experts has any doubt that the card is a fake. Let me say that again, not one person ,NOT ONE PERSON has any doubt the card is a fake, and a bad one at that.
It amazes me that after every person says it's a fake, you don't get it.
If it had the slightest chance of being real, you would have sold it to the first expert with deep pockets that saw it.
I truly feel bad for you that you cannot understand that it is not real.
I also feel bad for you that you think that the color of your skin has anything to do with the card. It is unfair playing a race card. No one cares what color you are, but they care that you are trying to dupe some un informed buyer into buying this reprint. This whole thing could wind up doing damage to the hobby, and that is unfair to everyone.
The main facts (as you call them loosely) are your experts have no clue about the card itself, and all the hobby experts can tell its a fake from 100 miles away. Please, do yourself, the auction house and the hobby a favor, pull the auction and go away. If you do this, you will save face in the long run. If this cards sells to some moron, (I seriously doubt it will), the damage it will do will be large. I'm sure you could care less about the damage it will do, but people on this board, ( you came here, we didn't come to you) care very much about the state of the hobby. I will not offer you good luck, because I hope you have no luck in this venture at all. Joe Brennan
People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.
Hey, buddy, I gotta say, you've convinced me. That's right, your nutso tirade has changed my mind, I'm going to bid in that real card! Bring that thing to coppertown, what a way to win an argument!
Oh, and as a point of logic here: you say there are three sides to the story. 1) Yours, 2) PSA and the so-called experts, 3) the TRUTH. Ummmm...wouldn't you want to at least claim to be on the truth side on this one, or are you just in some weird triangle of falseness.
This message has been edited by sgbernard on Aug 8, 2006 10:26 PM
Like a board member above, the more I thought about it, the angrier I got. It's hard to make a good honest living and this is truly, truly sad and shows poor judgement on the auctioneers part as he refuses to take any kind of action on this item. He obviously doesn't care about his reputation.
To get a fraudulent card passed an expert is rather difficult. You have to have it all right and every couple years, someone tries to pass a current repo by as I was the unsuspecting target of a purchase of twenty-five Eric Lindros reproductions by a Canadian shister traveling through. I wasn't aware of the blurry logo until weeks later. I wasn't aware of the "too good to be true" price, either.
It's not like we're dealing with autographs and the experts there. We have all talked about SCD* and their biggest advertiser, Coach's Corner who once again has ANOTHER Josh Gibson single signed baseball this month. LOA's from...not James Spence...not Global...not PSA/DNA or even Richard Simon, but STAT Authentication! Almost all the cards they sell come slabbed by something called GEM. Wasn't Gem a female cartoon hero in the early 1980's?
Imagine how many people would be selling Wagner's if they were as easy to create as signatures? If there was a super computer that could trick even the most astute experts? It had it down to perfection...card stock, age, clarity, forced and trickable wear. The hobby would forever be doomed as the people all over the country would be showing off their Honus Wagner's on their Data Entry salaries.
* SCD- Sports Collectors Digest, for those of you that don't know, it was once an important hobby magazine but it has alienated it's readership as it loves orange bald men and is now the size of a Lindsey Lohan's street sign frame.
You guys said it well... I've read through it all.
And I agree with everything but one. If that card was mine, I would NOT send it to be graded. The card is obviously not a genuine Wagner T206. It looks and sounds like it WAS a genuine T206 that has been bleached or skinned and had the front reprinted. So if it was mine, I would not grade it, it would be a waste of money. I would grade it and sell it if it were genuine, but it isn't.
Maybe everyone else on this board would have it graded. I wouldn't.
I do admire the gumption it would take to post here in the first place. But that pales to the gumption it would take to start down the fraudulent path of auctioning the card as real. Some folks would sell a real Wagner to retire, not have to work, kick back, be waited on. That could happen here if a serious enough crime is committed: no more work, serve time, have people cook and clean for you...
According to the article, the owners weren't present when the card
was shown to this guy in New York City. The owners have said all
along the reason the haven't had PSA grade it is because PSA
wouldn't allow them to be present.
Considering a genuine T206 Wagner in a PSA holder will sell for perhaps 20%
to 50% more money than the same card unholdered, the owners are
going to have to come up with a better reason why they won't allow PSA
SGC or GAI grade the card. I don't care how mean is Joe Orlando*, or if PSA
required me to sit in my underwear in the middle of the parking lot while
they graded a card, if having PSA grade a card means an extra $150,000 in
my pocket, I would do it. And anyone who says they wouldn't have PSA
grade a card for $150,000 is either extremely wealthy or a liar.
*P.s., I've never met Joe Orlando, and he may be perfectly nice.
This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 12:09 AM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 8, 2006 11:42 PM
So you send the card in and they won't grade it -- big deal. You can still sell it ungraded.
The other thing no one is mentioning is that PSA and the other companies have many exemplars of the cards they are reviewing -- did your expert have a control or any other known real Wagner's (exemplars) to compare it and the paper tests to? If so, great what were the results. If not, the analysis they performed is totally flawed an unreliable. Anyone could have done a reprint on older paper stock in the 1960's or prior to that.
The other question is why is there a difference in the specular highlights in his hair of a 'real' Wagner and your copy?
This message has been edited by goodyauctions on Aug 8, 2006 11:43 PM
I guess it doesn't matter because no one in there right mind would buy a card that is the single most forged card in our hobby, without the card being authenticated, seeing the card in person, or at least being in a legitimate auction. I am sure the Owner of the card wants very badly for someone to jump up and take a chance. IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! Most likely that type of card is sold to someone on this board. Anyone else would not be interested in that card; therefore, it will not sell. You may not believe we are experts in card authentication, and if that is the case, who is? I would rather get my information from someone who deals on a regular basis with cards and has touched 1,000's, than a guy who says the paper is old. Unfortunately you own a fake Wagner. I think most of us dreamed at one time that we might come across an $1,800 card that is worth $300K-$500K. Not likely. Too much information is available to us. Please believe the knowledgeable people on this board. Your Wagner is not real. You are embarrassing yourself by coming on this board and doing whatever you can to legitimize your card.
that these two guys are "entreprenuers", at least that is what the newspaper article says. If they are gutsy enough to try and sell a fake T206 Wagner at auction, without it being graded and also come on this board, just think what type of scams and rip-offs they pull on their customers in their regular businesses... Scary.
Everything else aside, if you/this guy were to get the endorsement of one of the 3 big grading companies, then the card will automatically sell for...what...SEVERAL HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS MORE??!!
That's where it ends for me. I understand not wanting to let a card of such (possible, though improbable) value out of my sight...I get that. BUT if I can get an extra $400,000 for the card by doing so for only a couple of minutes, and it will be in the hands of handling experts who've graded other Wagner's before, you had better believe I'm gonna take the extra several hundred thousand dollars.
Bottom line, anyone willing to throw away HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS for not letting a recognized expert look at the card is either: crazy, too rich already (and stupid), just plain stupid, or afraid of what the result will be. I think we have the latter here. Oh, and I saw the credentials of your experts, and though I respect the knowledge that years in the field will bring someone, a "few semesters of community college" is not the training that I see as expert.
And leave race out of it. That's got nothing to do with it. I once posted a card on this board checking for authenticity (in my early collecting days). I was laughed at and made fun of for it. The card was a reprint, and I just didn't know it because I was just starting out.
And though I didn't at all appreciate people poking fun at me for being a beginner, the bottom line is that they were right....it was a fake. People not in the know will ALWAYS take a beating from those who do, whether it's card collecting or something else. It isn't a matter of race at all.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh .... come on fellers’ ..... don’t try being so politically correct.
This has ALWAYS been a "race card" card. Race is the only reason these two jokers got their story told in the first place. Can you imagine if one of “us” (you know, old, fat, bald, white, smelly, tee-shirt wearing losers) walked into out local newspaper (be it the NY Times or EBF Gazette), and tried to get a story on our new Wagner find ??? Hell, the receptionist and security guard would laugh us out the door before we got by the front desk.
Sad: Two trusting soles who, once again, are beaten down by the man, with his evil knowledge and experience. Give me a break. They are an embarrassment to anyone who still believes in the legitimate struggles of the African-American in the USA. The absolute ignorance of their actions sets social Black images back to Stimey settin’ on the stove wipen’ his brow.
I was shocked to see in Joe's posting that Capital company chose to hi-jack the name I gave to T206 on the cover of my 1980 book--T206 The Monster. Now on point. I have been paid some pretty good money and been flown to far away places to authenticate a "Wagner." One such trip yielded a Wagner, Boston AL! I even spotted a fake at a dealer's table at a show, which he immediately took off his table and returned to the person he bought it from who gladly accepted it back "only after I talk to Heitman." Of the 20 to 25 that I have been asked to authenticate, only one was real. It is impossible to authenticate a Wagner without seeing it in person and examining it. But I will say that a picture can reveal a fake. I have been shown pictures of what purported to be a Wagner along with an offer to fly me somewhere to examine the card. Many times I have told the owner of a reprint that he need not bother to pay me to be told that his card is not an original. Having said this, let me add that the pictures I've seen of this card reveal just what it really is.
If Bryant Gumbel and HBO make these jackasses into sympathetic characters then the only justice would be if ol' Bryant himself buys the card. I could live with that. Really, this is all just bizarre. I think I'll scribble my very own Picasso and then spend the next ten years trying to convince everyone it's real. Hell, I'm not going to get famous doing anything that takes real talent.
This message has been edited by one-in-ten on Aug 9, 2006 9:18 PM
Chad, your point is good. Even if the card was genuine, I don't see
how it would grade a 4. My guess is it grade a 1, if lucky a 2 by PSA.
This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 10, 2006 12:17 AM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 11:49 PM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 11:38 PM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 11:28 PM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 11:19 PM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 11:16 PM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 11:11 PM
Hasn't this carnival act become stale yet? For anyone to give the card, the auction house, or the owners of this card any credibility does a disservice to the collecting community. This tripartate of misinformation and apparent deception should just go away never to be heard of again. Still, the entire episode has been a good laugh, but alas, we must laugh at ourselves for wasting oxygen and time discussing this matter. It has been educational, the "scientific" research is a great sales tool, and I'm sure that it will be replicated on the next ebay sale of an Elvis image discovered in the hardened yoke of a fried egg.
C'mon gentlemen, if you're that sure that the card is real, and Barry has placed such a generous offer/wager on the table........what's to lose? It's put up, or shut up time.
I'll tell you what, I'll sweeten the pot by 5K.......now it's 15K against your single dollar. Whadya say? Those who know me here will testify that I am a man of my word and good for it. The same can be said for Barry.
Edited to add. When (not if) the card is proven to be fake, you agree never to surface in the card collecting world again and the auction house agrees never to sell or offer for sale any baseball card or memorabilia ever again. We have to get something out of this wager other than the satisfaction of seeing you look even more foolish than you already are.
This message has been edited by zardoz51 on Aug 10, 2006 12:28 AM
Anyone that brings up racism where there is none is a racist
August 10 2006, 1:19 PM
You two are total baffoons and thieves. People like you are trash. You obviously dropped out of school. Reading your writing, I can tell. I've never seen more horrendous writing. You sound like someone that lives in the projects that wants to mooch off whitey while bad mouthing whitey. Take your racist remarks and shove them up your ghetto you trash. It's sad that people like you are allowed to live while innocent people die everyday. Stop smoking your goat weed and wake up trash. By the way, clean and clip your fingernails man. They're disgusting.
I don't hear you talking about how the front of your card doesn't match the real Wagners. You obviously took the back off a real T206 card, and put it on a fake Wagner and then tried to age it. You're trying to find a sucker, but the sucker is in the mirror when you got suckered buying that card for $1500 you racist idiot.
There is a blemish near the top border on the front. The back has dark overall toning and the printing is off center.
I copied that from the ebay listing. A blemish? The card looks like my mother washed it with her pantyhose and a bucket of sharp rocks. A blemish! This thing is really helping me chortle the way through the work day.
I don't get why anyone is discussing anything with the card's owners. You need to keep in mind that they are thieves, pure and simple. They aren't having the card graded because it is a fake - they know that, we know that, end of story. They are trying to screw someone and have been building a case purely so that they will NOT have to return money when the owner gets the card and realizes he/she has been had.
The only real debate should be how to rid the hobby of this tripe.