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T206 Honus Wagner-Piedmont

August 8 2006 at 6:40 PM
TheCard  (Login TheCard)

I am the co-owner of the card you guys are discussing. I find it disturbing that you guys will discuss a topic without the total facts on what you are discussing. I see that there are a lot of player hater in the house, full of jokes but know facts. For its fact that stand up in a court of law. Let's get to the facts.

1. If my card is a reprint. What company reprinted my card ( topps, dover, honus wagner estate, etc...) All the reprints out their have a orgin ( Companies that printed them ) If you call it a reprint then WHO REPRINTED THE CARD.

2. Do you guys know the differents between grading a card and authenticating a card. Grading isn't authenticating check it out. Call up PSA and as Joe Orlando (which I have) what is done to authenticate a old card. He should say two things are done to check the authenticty of the card. Which he told me. 1. check the print 2. check the paper. We got both done by the world top experts (CIA TRUSTED OUR PAPER GUY AND HIS WORK THEN HE MUST BE THE MAN ). Our card is the first in history to be authenticated thru science.

3. Are the two Honus Wagner cards in coppertown graded. No. So why isn't anyone attacking there cards. HUMMM. If we choose not to have my card graded doesn't mean that it not real.

4. Why is everyone struck on the front on the card. Talk about the back. Bill Mastro said in a newspaper article ran back in 2004 cincinnati enquier, about this card ( Bill Mestro stated: ALL reprints have black ink on the back and ALL real t206 piedmont have blue ink) well guess what our cards has blue ink. O but lets not stop there, lets talk about the FACTORY No.25, 2d. DIST. VA. FKw from t206museum.com said NO and I repeat No FACTORY DIST. # =REPRINT.. I have the print out FKw. You said it so stand behind it. Don't change your words when it come to our card, remember your words NO FACTORY #=REPRINT on back of ALL real T206. I have the proof, FKw.

5. I would say most of you guys in this chat room are big fan of the PSA-8 Honus Wagner. But do you know the history behind that card. The PSA-8 card has been call a fake, reprint, etc.. No one wants to talk about that topic. I guess that because PSA graded it and you guys don't question big companies, like they don't make mistake or do dirt. Have you guys being keeping up with the news on big companies and PSA lawsuit on forgery signature. Check it out for your self and you guys have so much faith in PSA and other grading companies. It's big business, did you know and if you don't then ask some body. So did PSA authenticate the PSA-8 card the way our card has been authenticated SCIENTIFICALLY. NO and if so show me the paper work PSA on the PSA-8 Honus Wagner card (fiber test, EDS, etc..). Oh lets not say you guys don't believe in science, I bet when you get very ill you will believe in science to make you better.

6. Some of you in the chat room is so quick to say, " Why don't they just send the card in for grading". I throw the question back at you. Would you. HELL NO YOU WOULDN'T, SO STOP TRIPPING ON US FOR NOT DOING THE SAME!!!!

7. No one on this planet of ours know the total truth behind the T206 card set. Also the TOBACCO CO., did not print the cards, do your research. If you know then come with printing documents, printing plates, the name of the press the cards were printed on, the printing companies name, etc... Do you have that info., FKw, PSA, etc... If you do please share that info., with the public. Oh you don't have it. So why hate on our card.

8. For some of you that are looking at the color of our skin. I say turn the lights off and hear the facts.

I know the reponse are going to be full of jokes, off the facts at hand. But hey some people like to deal with what they think instead of what they know. I will say, if you guys only knew what has been said behind the seen. Remember there are three sides to a story. Our side, PSA, FKw, etc.. side and the TRUTH!!! I know after I post this, the jokes will fly and the hating will continue. But hey some people have a lot of time on there hands. I guess you guys do believe in W.M.D.'s

All that wish us will, thank you and all that don't may The most High bless you. Thank you for your time.



    
This message has been edited by TheCard on Aug 8, 2006 7:46 PM


 
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AuthorReply

peter ullman
(Login ullmandds)

Re: T206 Honus Wagner-Piedmont

August 8 2006, 6:45 PM 

pulling the race card is ludacris...noone here cares about the color of your skin...we only care about baseball cards. Most here are experts in the field of vintage baseball cards and can tell a fake just by looking at it. You card is a bad bad fake. Anyone with some old stock...a laserprinter and a computer can make a reprint of a vintage card...so yes...all reprints have origins...but the permutations are limitless in this day and age.

best of luck!

pete in mn

 
 
Steve Dawson
(Login SteveDawson)

Re: T206 Honus Wagner-Piedmont

August 8 2006, 6:48 PM 

To answer #6 above:

You can bet your life and then some that if I owned a T206 Wagner, I would MOST DEFINITELY send the card to either PSA or SGC for grading and authenticating!


Steve

 
 
Adam Smith
(Login wealthofnations)

Re: T206 Honus Wagner-Piedmont

August 8 2006, 6:51 PM 

No reasonable collector will buy the fake Wagner

Supply and demand

 
 
Mike
(Login darthshoeless)

Re: T206 Honus Wagner-Piedmont

August 8 2006, 6:57 PM 

Wow, I thought Sean had returned for a minute there. Anyway, I hope everyone IS scared off, then the card will be MINE!!!!!!

The best one, # 3, just where is this coppertown?


    
This message has been edited by darthshoeless on Aug 8, 2006 6:58 PM


 
 

David McDonald
(Login Kawika_o_ka_Pakipika)

Re: T206 Honus Wagner-Piedmont

August 8 2006, 7:04 PM 

Reads like a 419 scam. Quite bizarre.

 
 
nbbrazil
(Login MajorDanby)

Re: T206 Honus Wagner-Piedmont

August 8 2006, 7:08 PM 

Point #6 just shows us how little you know about baseball cards, how collectors see the T206 wagner and the utility of grading.

 
 

Steve M.
(Login jacklitsch)

T206 Honus Wagner-Piedmont

August 8 2006, 7:08 PM 

Mike

The man came on and spoke his peace. He is obviously sincere in his belief. While you, me and everyone else on this board may have a differing opinion there does not seem to be any way to convince him otherwise. Just wish him luck because he will need it.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login wfeola)

Re: T206 Honus Wagner-Piedmont

August 8 2006, 7:12 PM 

Spellcheck?

 
 
davidcycleback
(Login drc1)

Re: T206 Honus Wagner-Piedmont

August 8 2006, 7:20 PM 

Go to Bill Mastro and offer it to him. He's a wealthy man who buys
T206 Wagners. If Mastro thinks it's real, graded or ungraded, he'll
come up with fair money for the card. You can contact him through
Mastro's web site and, if the card is real, the sale should be
completed in days, perhaps same day.

If your card is real and you're looking to sell, you should have no
problem finding a private buyer. Contact Dan Hall or Sotheby's
or Rob Lifson or Joshua Leland. I can promise you that they would
love to hear from an owner of an authentic T206 Wagner, and could find
a buyer of an authentic T206 Wagner in days.

It doesn't matter what anyone on this or other boards says, if
the card is as real as you claim, it should take days to find
a buyer. Finding a willing buyer for an authentic T206 Honus Wagner
is about as hard as finding a willing eater of a double cheeseburger
at fat camp.


    
This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 8, 2006 7:41 PM


 
 
jackgoodman
(Login ocjack)

Re: T206 Honus Wagner-Piedmont

August 8 2006, 7:22 PM 

I agree with Steve M. If he's a serious man, he should be treated with respect.

Although many of us don't believe him to be serious, time will tell.

 
 

Ray Piskadlo
(Login RayPiskadlo)

Re: T206 Honus Wagner-Piedmont

August 8 2006, 7:25 PM 

Even though I don't post much... as a T206 set collector, I feel the need to respond to this thread.

In your intro, you state: "I see that there are a lot of player hater in the house, full of jokes but know facts." You are very correct! This board does joke and we do know facts!

#1. Anyone can create a reprint with a quality scanner and laser printer... It didn't have to be a company. (FACT)

#2. The back of the card might be authentic! There is a process called skinning, where the back of a card is removed and put back together with a new front. In our money-hungry society, it is unfortunate that people try to manipulate cards for their financial benefit. There are many examples of common cards with rare backs (uzit, drum, etc) that have been skinned so that the back can be reattached to a more valuable front such as Ty Cobb or Christy Mathewson. (FACT)

#3. The cards in Cooperstown have fronts and backs that are consistent with other T206 cards. The front of your card is not. (FACT)

#4. Most of the original reprints were printed using black ink. That is true, but like I said earlier, anyone can create a reprint at home on their computer using a high-res scanner and good printer. (FACT)

#5. I am a biologist. I believe in the power of science. I truly believe that the back of the card came from an original T206. I believe that the fiber samples you had analyzed came from the back of the card. Would those samples come back with your findings, yes. Does that mean the entire card was printed in 1909-11, no. (FACT)

#6. Yes, I would... I would have high-res scans made of the card and make sure I got the same card back once graded. I live 30 minutes from SGC headquarters and would not hesitate to add thousands of dollars of value to the card. Plus, these big companies (PSA and SGC) have a lot at stake reputation-wise if they were to lose the most valuable card on earth. (FACT)

#7. Many of the people on the board know about the printing process of T206 cards. A contributor to the board, who can identify himself if he chooses, spent years researching this set and it's history and has compiled a 74 page report on these cards. (FACT)

In conclusion... Do I think the back of your card is from a real T206? Yes... Do I think the front is the original front of the card? Unfortunately, no.

Best of luck with your card,
Ray Piskadlo

 
 

warshawlaw
(Login boxingcardman)

what can you say to that?

August 8 2006, 7:30 PM 

I have no doubt that the folks here, fresh from "copperstown" and dinner with "Mestro" will have no problems buying into this one.

Edited to say: But seriously: You could have walked the card into the National two weeks ago and had any authentication company and any of a number of top-level people look it over, in your presence. That you did not and have steadfastly refused to engage any known expert in the card field to review this supposedly authentic Wagner speaks volumes about the quality of the item in question. You are a charlatan, a huckster, a con artist of the first magnitude. Like any good grifter, you strive to create the illusion of legitimacy to fool the vast majority of the people out there who lack the requisite sophistication and experience to ask the right questions but might have the money to buy into the dream. We aren't those folks. Do not come into our house expecting to run a line of bull about the steps taken to authenticate your Wagner and at the same time dismissing us as a group. You decided to come into this forum and present your obviously faked card and your transparently fraudulent effort to market it; you take the heat for it.


    
This message has been edited by boxingcardman on Aug 8, 2006 7:40 PM


 
 

Joann
(Login jmk59)

Re: T206 Honus Wagner-Piedmont

August 8 2006, 7:30 PM 

1. It's not necessary for someone to identify WHO reprinted something to say it's a reprint. If I get a Mona Lisa for $8 at a starving artists sale, I can pretty much say it's not a DaVinci even though I have no clue who painted the reproduction.

2. Obviously the grading companies use some methods to confirm at least broad ranges of age. But there are also visual cues used to detect alterations and other reasons why old ink and old paper can be combined to make new, but fake, cards.

3. Hall of Fame exhibits generally have pretty good provenance, and no one is trying to sell them for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Also, if the same visual cues were present to suggest that the HOF cards were reprints, that discussion would be the longest thread in the forum. It's not the lack of grading, it's the physical appearance of the card. Lack of grading falls more in the challenge category.

4. One of the posts in the other thread suggested that someone put skinned a real T206, and put the genuine Piedmont back onto a reprint front. You wouldn't be the first person that's happened to. It would explain the correct color easily.

5. The Gretzky PSA 8 Wagner is actually the subject of huge, huge controversy. Do a search in this forum for Bill Heitman, or William Heitman (might be Heitmann?) and check out the thread and the controversy surrounding exactly that card.

6. Personally, I'm with you on this one. Not that I wouldn't let it get graded, but I guarantee if I'm ever in possession of a million dollar piece of paper, it's not leaving my sight without someone handing me a million dollar deposit first. Not sure if that's the true motive here, but I can't debate the logic. I'd think the grading companies would HAVE to have some way to accommodate an owner's natural desire to keep a mega-card in sight.

7. Who cares who printed the originals?

8. I couldn't care less what color you are. If you were white and in this position I wouldn't have a single change in my opinion or stance. I'm not an expert by a long shot. But from the scans posted and the appearance of the font used in the front caption, I wouldn't spend $10 on any such T206 on ebay, no matter what race or creed the seller was.

Just my two cents worth. And I wasn't 100% on the WMD from the start, and now that's just a sad joke.

Joann

 
 

David McDonald
(Login Kawika_o_ka_Pakipika)

full of jokes but know facts

August 8 2006, 7:33 PM 

Wagners of Mass Deception ?


    
This message has been edited by Kawika_o_ka_Pakipika on Aug 8, 2006 7:34 PM


 
 
DJ
(Login OJ-Collector)

Re: T206 Honus Wagner-Piedmont

August 8 2006, 7:46 PM 

What a complete bunch of freaking nonsense.

Thanks for sharing as I was bemused by your rantings.

Anyone interested in my T206 Shoeless Joe Jackson? It's a horizontal!

DJ

 
 
TONY
(Login tonygalo)

Re: T206 Honus Wagner-Piedmont

August 8 2006, 7:47 PM 

Quit wasting everyone's time......
Send this monstrosity to SGC or PSA........your choice.....
IF it comes back authentic.......
I will pay all grading & shipping costs.....

++ You will have a item worth much more $$$ & now you can auction it off & retire.......

BUT....your scared of the truth !!!!!!

You know & all knowledgeable hobbyists know what you own is a Frankenstein type recreation......

It's sad people like you believe their own B.S.

Tony Galovich



 
 

J Levine
(Login Wite3)

T206 Answers

August 8 2006, 7:49 PM 

I will answer your questions for you eventhough I really doubt you will listen to any of my advice.

In answer to your questions:

1. NO, not all reprints have company names on them. You are correct that many companies do print their name on it but I know for a fact that many do not. I used to work for a print shop and printed up several t206 wagners on older paper (pre-1930) to use as joke for a dealer friend of mine. They were reprints without any company mark. I also destroyed them all after the joke. This was in 1989. Your assertion is that it must have a company attatched to it and that is incorrect. For all any of us know, you printed the cards.

2. Authentication is not grading. But I disagree again your statement that grading is not authentication. In order to grade an item, you must first establish vailidity of the item (ask Joe Orlando). If I were to hand you a peach and tell you that I graded it a AAA10 orange. Would you believe the grading company? Of course not. It would have no validity because the grading company did not authenticate it first as a peach. Grading companies try to pride themselves on not only their grading standards but recognizing the product they are handed. (BTW, the article you sight further in your comments has Joe Orlando clearly stating that they authenticate first, grade second).

3. I agree with you that the two are not graded but many baseball card experts have verified the cards and they have provenance (a record of who, when, and how they were obtained). And before you say it, remember that provenance needs to date back a great deal, not some mall show a few years ago. Call Cooperstown and ask them, they will tell you exactly where the cards came from.

4. You misquoted your own article...Here is all Bill said in that article, "Bill Mastro says the card is almost certainly a reprint. The P in "PITTSBURG" should be slightly larger than the other letters, he says. It's the same size as the rest. "That's the only discrepancy," Edwards counters. "That's what makes it unique. One of one."

If anyone wants to read the entire article it is here:

http://www.honuswagner.com/viewheadline.php?id=2554

BTW, many of the reprints including the dover ones do in fact have the factory number. Even my reprint mentioned above had the factory and state.

5. Actually, we question that card all the time. I myself have handled that card and feel that it was trimmed slightly. If you do a search on our site you will find us pulling apart that Wagner fairly regularly. Not to mention bashing every grading company. We are all tough critics of grading companies. Heck, some of our members even sued a grading company.

As to science, we believe, if you read some of the responses we tried to contact your "experts" but to no avial. Also, your experts do not seem to have the needed expertise just from reading their resumes.

6. Most of us would have it graded. It can be done fairly safely at onsite grading visits at shows that are probably held in your area fairly regualarly. It is safe to say that we might not send it in for grading but if you are that certain it is real, take a $100 plane flight to PSA and get it graded. Heck, I would pitch in some money just to fly you out here to get it graded at the company of your choice--PSA or SGC.

7. This is the place for most of the information. In the past few years, I have learned more on how these cards were printed, by who, where, and when. The Net54 guys really do know more about T206 cards then just about anyone else and are often consulted on articles, grading, research, pricing, etc. We hate on your card because it is an obvious fraud and your hurt our hobby when you try to run an auction stating it as real.

8. I see no skin color and for you to say that is actually an insult. Black, white, red, yellow, purple, if your Wagner was real, we would buy it in a heartbeat. Give up the race card. It just hurts your case.

As a last thought, I am also saddened to see that you did not sign your name. You own your card and your thoughts, sign your name so we know which owner we are dealing with. No jokes above, I answered your questions fairly and thoughtfully and hopefully you will read my response with an open mind and take it to heart.

Joshua Levine

 
 

peter ullman
(Login ullmandds)

Re: T206 Honus Wagner-Piedmont

August 8 2006, 7:56 PM 

very eloquently stated, Adam.

pete in mn

 
 

steve f
(Login fdnyladder7)

Re: T206 Honus Wagner-Piedmont

August 8 2006, 8:05 PM 

Golly, This kid really wants a new Lamborghini... These replies show tremendous restraint. Incredible

 
 
 
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