Thanks Mr. Spell Checker for pointing out misspell words instead of answering the questions. You are a expert in human error. Now for the T206 expert in the house. Stop ego tripping. You are not an expert, just because you have 50, 100, 500, etc... You are just a big collector of T206's. Can you till me when, were, and how the card was printed (factory, city, print plates, etc..) And yes this is very important info., in solving the puzzle behind the T206 Honus Wagner-Piedmont.
Some of you guys say that I am pulling the race card. I don't need to pull the race card to sell my card. The facts speak for them self. I wish that wasn't a issue, but there are sick people out in the world, that may use race, etc.. to work there evil. I didn't make it up, its been there since time started and it be here when my time is up. Back on point. No one on this board has attack the science behind this card. And remember that science is the glue to the Universe, with out it you and I wouldn't exist. Also why haven't know one attack the back of the card. Oh isn't it because there no reprint printed on the back that would say it a reprint. Stop running around and, stay on point. What company reprinted the card. Not that it's a early 80's, 70's reprint. What company put the card out. If you don't know then stop ego tripping and find out. I have ask this question for over 4 years and no one know the answer. So I did the resarch for you. There isn't a company out there that put this card out as a reprint. The science say that its pre-1921. Facts or Facts.
For the T206 expert on the board, stop ego tripping. Just because you own 10,50,100,500,etc.. T206's doesn't make you an expert on the Honus Wagner T206-Piedmont card. If you were an expert then why are there so many stories on the Honus Wagner T206-Piedmont card. You are a big collector, but you don't know when, how and were the T206 card were printed. Dont't talk about it, be about it. That is why there are error cards, ghost (which is a error in print), misspell words and the list goes on, about the T206's poping up everyday. If you are a expert like you say then solve the puzzle. Like Nike say "Just Do It". You so call experts didn't come up with the ideal to have your T206 card tested with science to see if its authentic. And make note that this the first T206 and baseball in history to be tested with science to prove it authenticity. Well that makes me a big expert on vintage card pre-1921 would you say. Sometimes you need science to take the problem to the next level to be solve.
I wonder if the PSA-8 Honus Wagner card has any scientific test behind it. I would stay NO. So stop hating on this card. It has more proof that it's real then the PSA-8 Honus Wagner T206. Oh the PSA-8 HW, been slab, reprints been slab to. You guys only know the surface of this story. If the grading compnaies were expert in authenticating T206 cards, then why didn't they come up with the concept of test the fiber of the card first. I did. So instead of hating, you need to be asking me to authenticate you card. Don't you think. The T206 cards are a mystery and like every mystery you will have controversy.
For the ones who would stay why am I defending my card. I don't need to defend my card the science behind the card defend the card.
Hey it being fun chatting. There are three sides to every story; our side, your side and the truth.
Quit wasting your time and ours trying to sell a bogus card to the most experienced collectors in the hobby. More members of this board have handled REAL un slabbed Wagners in the last few years, than you will ever see pictures of in your lifetime.
In fact I can think of 3-4 members that own a Real one right now.
Quit making a fool of yourself here and go to a yahoo board, where some idiot might actually beleive you.
I can till you that the glue of THIS universe is going to block your ass any minute cause he be trippin by now. But seriously dude, get a life. You think someone with $300k to throw around on a piece of cardboard or anything else is stupid? Seriously? T206 cards are not a mystery, the only mystery around here is what you've been smoking. As much as you wish this card to be real with phoney baloney paper testers and Mr. Magoo the famous memorabilia dealer on the 37th floor, it ain't gonna happen!! We ain't buyin what ya sellin!! Never will!! I just want to know how you conned this auctioneer into trying to sell it? Are all those Psa 1-2 T206's yours too? Is that your angle? If all the $20 ones are real, the $300k one must be real too right? Go away.
I have read it all but in the name of a good SNL skit (pick an old one with Belushi....maybe the blues bros. one(s))...and I say let 'er rip. This guy does need to go to the YAAhoo board but why not let him express himself? I really almost thought the first post in this thread was an attempt at comedy, it's so funny.....Tell me how many folks didn't laugh, just a little, when they read it?..breast regards
Dude, you are trippin! First off, race doesn't exist. Why you ask? WE CAN'T SEE YOU!!!!!!!! If you don't mention it, HOW WOULD WE KNOW?
I don't know half the people on this board and don't know their races but you know what, we are all equal in my eyes. I consider them all "Collectors". Wise collectors.
As far as T206 being a mystery. HOW THE HELL IS IT A MYSTERY? The idea that the Chupcabra existing...now that's a mystery. The death of John F. Kennedy...still remains a mystery. Atlantis, a mystery. The fact that you think you can pull the wool over the eyes of this Forum and why you would return...a mystery. We're talking cardboard from one hundred years ago. It's not exactly Stonehenge.
Obviously you know nothing about cardboard. Stick with horny goat weed and alaskan bear spray, things you know.
You never told us why we can't get ahold of your expect, Mr Swedy? I would think that it would be very important for him to be able to answer questions about how he went about his tests. You can't sit there and trumpet scientific tsting when the person taht did it has a disconnected phone and can't be found.
You wonder why no one else ever thought of testing fibers from a card to authenticate it? It's because a true expert on t206s does not need to do this and most importantly, and should be relate to to this, by removing fibers from a million dollar card, you are causing hundreds of thousands of dollars in damge.
I'd love to use a favorite saying of one of Black friends, but it would most likely get the post deleted and me sent to corner for using a bad word.
A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."
Congratulations! You probably do own a real T206 BACK!!! Too bad it was skinned off a common and attached to a horrible looking Honus Wagner scan that was artificially aged. It doesn't take a company to do that... just a single person with a computer, scanner, and printer.
Wonka, we missed you!
This message has been edited by RayPiskadlo on Aug 9, 2006 12:21 AM
You know, a better analysis would have been to have the 'experts' compare the reprint to an actual Wagner or any other T206 Piedmont. Saying that the paper is consistent with paper from an era is different than comparing the paper of your reprint to the paper of a known original.
It's a reprint -- maybe an early reprint, but the specular highlights in his hair are different in yours than in the Gretsky/McNall.
If I remember the story of the card right, they got it in the early 90s for $1500. They realized after spending this money that they got conned and are trying pull the con themselves. Basically, they are suckers looking for a bigger sucker. Sadly, I don't think there are two bigger suckers in this world then these two guys. I got a bridge in Brooklyn I'm looking to sell if you are interested.
A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."
This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 13, 2006 2:49 AM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 12:44 AM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 12:40 AM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 12:37 AM
Isn’t nice that we can bond together sometimes? It's more fun when the board plays nice. Back to business... Wagner is a bad fake. Please take your nonsense elsewhere. We have meaningful discussions to conduct.
I just love people who try to defend themselves on vintages carsd on this board when they have no idea who they are dealing with.
Iam curious as to how he found us and the fact we were laughing at this case of fraud. How long are these jokers going to try to keep this up?
Leon, why are we wasting are time with this joker. Just leave a thread with a link to the auction that it is a fake, lock the thread, and bump it to the top of the page when it hits the bottom until the auction is done.
Lee, these are big time playas (like the hood language?) in the vintage card arena. Didn't you read that he came up with the idea of fiber testing a card for autenticity? Come on, that's about as big a playa as you are gonna find in this ignorant nexk of the woods.
To the card owner, might I suggest carbon-14 dating just to lay to rest an question about how old the card really is. The science doesn't get any better than that
A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."
This message has been edited by sabrjay on Aug 9, 2006 12:47 AM
This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 13, 2006 2:50 AM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 1:33 AM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 1:25 AM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 1:20 AM
I actually remembered the story of Olbermann having his driver look at the doctored Doyle error he purchased from mr. mint several years ago. Even his driver who knew absolutely nothing about cards could tell it wasn't right. I tried similar scientific logic and had my girlfriend compare the scan of the card against 5 of my graded T206's. She could tell in about .5 seconds the card did not look right at all in comparsion authenticated T206 cards. Being in medical school and having degrees in biology and chemistry, I think I know more than this clown about scientific method. She knows nothing about my cards and probably thinks Ty Cobb is Louis Vuitton's long lost brother. Scientifically, she proved that her unbiased(colorblind to the race card)eyesight doesn't lie, the card is a really, really bad fake! Now, back to more important business.
This message has been edited by benkenobi13 on Aug 9, 2006 1:04 AM
Quote: And remember that science is the glue to the Universe, with out it you and I wouldn't exist.
I can live with the fact that you are trying to pawn off a piece of crap as real. And I do have a very healty appreciation for science and technology. Perhaps you can use the "Big Bang Theory" to validate the "origin" of this card?
But, I sure hope my existence is predicated on more than "your science?"
This message has been edited by stone193 on Aug 9, 2006 1:13 AM
"Can you till me when, were, and how the card was printed (factory, city, print plates, etc..)"
probably in your basement.
"And remember that science is the glue to the Universe"
it's also the glue that stuck that skinned back on your card.
"Facts or Facts."
I'll choose Facts, please.
"If you are a expert like you say then solve the puzzle."
Why dont you tell this to orlando, baker, PSA, SGC, GAI?...i bet you they can solve the puzzle. Oh wait! Grading companies are the spawn of satan, right?
"I wonder if the PSA-8 Honus Wagner card has any scientific test behind it. I would stay NO. So stop hating on this card. It has more proof that it's real then the PSA-8 Honus Wagner T206. Oh the PSA-8 HW, been slab, reprints been slab to."
Then you should be more than fine if your card is guaranteed to be real, right? If the reprinted gretzy/mcnall wagner is not legit, then your card should get a PSA 9...10...or, joe orlando might jump right out of his shoes when he sees your beautiful, pristine, magnificently crafted card and give it the first ever PSA 11!! Holy toledo, you'd be a billionaire!! Seriously, your logic is extremely flawed when you bring up the PSA 8. If your card is legit and the PSA 8 isnt, then you shouldnt be hesitant in the least to send it to PSA for authenticity.
"If the grading compnaies were expert in authenticating T206 cards, then why didn't they come up with the concept of test the fiber of the card first. I did."
I bet you created the internet too, huh big time? What now??..solve global warming?
"For the ones who would stay why am I defending my card. I don't need to defend my card"
Uh, your two posts contradict that above statement.
"the science behind the card defend the card."
im still confused. you mention "science" about a dozen times in your two posts. what is this science? jesus magic?
I noticed that the two posts have a haunting simalarity to the way people who are in a cult try to convince you that they are right and you are wrong.I've heard people argue about the Bible using pretzel logic just like this.
"Can you till me when, were, and how the card was printed (factory, city, print plates, etc..) And yes this is very important info., in solving the puzzle behind the T206 Honus Wagner-Piedmont."
Can you? If you can't, then how can you prove it to be real? After all, it's easier to disprove something than prove it.
"I don't need to pull the race card to sell my card"
"Oh isn't it because there no reprint printed on the back that would say it a reprint"
Do you expect ANY scammer to be that stupid, flaunting a card that says "reprint" all over it? Oh, wait...
"The science say that its pre-1921"
Science (and good science for the time, at that) has also taught us that the earth is flat and that the sun revolves around it.
"Oh the PSA-8 HW, been slab, reprints been slab to"
So if you doubt the workmanship, for lack of a better word, or PSA, then why don't you send your card there? I mean if if will most certainly be slabbed, authentic or fake, why throw away the money that "authenticating" would generate?
"So instead of hating, you need to be asking me to authenticate you card"
In your own words "Stop ego tripping"
"For the ones who would stay why am I defending my card. I don't need to defend my card the science behind the card defend the card."
So why defend it?
"Hey it being fun chatting. There are three sides to every story; our side, your side and the truth."
For the first time, we are in accord: you arn't telling the truth.
P.S. If do do manage to sell this thing, could you please take night school classes on how to spell? Cuz spell checker aint doing you no good.
I tried to be nice and civil in the other thread and then I got annoyed but now I know I have it correct. I would like to offer the sellers of this card, two more Wagners with Piedmont backs. Niether will state reprint and both will be reprinted on paper certain to come from no later than 1909. I will offer them both for the sum of $1000 each. They will pass all forensic tests on the paper fiber and ink. All I ask is about 1 month to print them up. See, I need to find a book from the given time period, not really a big problem because I have two fantastic used book shops near me and they carry a variety of vintage books. I then need to carefully remove the paper, pulp it using distilled water and reconstitute it as thicker, almost cardboard stock. Really not that hard. Used to do this all the time in my middle school and camp. The harder part would be to find inks that do not react to UV light. But wait, that can be done to as many vintage inks are still available although not readily. If that does not happen, I can always use my old trick of mixing oil paints. You would be surprised how close I can come to a given color. The backs are really easy too. Skin a couple of cheap t206s and viola'! So, boys, let me know if you want them. Really. I don't understand why you would not as you stand to make a fortune on your's and three fortunes are better than one right? One for each of the owners and one for their lawyer. Drop me a note. I look forward to doing business with you.
PS Whatever you do, stick by your guns and do not let those crooks at PSA or SGC look at your card or the cards I sell you. You can make your money without them.
PPS Maybe Mr. Connelly wants one too...I should make three.
As an instructor of Chemistry and Biology, let me educate you about the word "science". Science is a process, not a means to prove anything. Science is continually misrepresented by the media and ignorant individuals like yourself as a conclusive and fail-safe endeavor. The final step of the scientific method is the presentation of results/conclusion for criticism. While there is no doubt that had the card analyzed, a panel of experts (this board) has deemed the card a forgery. In this situation, the good scientist, if he/she was undaunted by the criticism, would re-test their hypothesis (the card is real) by eliminating variables. Bottom line, if you truly believe the card to be real, allow a panel of experts, not just hand-picked individuals, to examine the card.
Could it be true? Could you actually be a rational scientist????
"Science is a process, not a means to prove anything. Science is continually misrepresented by the media and ignorant individuals like yourself as a conclusive and fail-safe endeavor."
This is beautiful! As a creationist, I beg of you to allow me to use your words in future debates! This is exactly what I try to tell irrational scientists all of the time, but they don't want to hear it.
Dear Wagner owner- let us continue this discussion and exercise in futility. First, the puzzle of this card has been solved a long time ago, and it is fake. Second, you question whether the people on this board are experts. Well guess what, this is in fact a board of expert vintage card collectors. Every person on this board spends a good part of his or her professional or leisure time studying vintage baseball cards, and no set has been analyzed more than T206. How much time have you and your buddy spent studying the set? That aside, I have an offer to make you that you can't refuse. Here's the deal: We send the card to one of the grading services, and I, Barry Sloate, will pay for all the fees. If the card turns out to be fake, you send me $1.00. If the card turns out to be real, I will send you a certified check for $10,000! That's 10,000 to 1 odds in your favor. The whole board is my witness so if I lose I will have to pay. The stipulation for you to collect is either SGC, PSA, or GAI must examine the card and make a ruling. How can you lose? Since the card is real, you will pick up a cool 10K with no risk. Please email me at email@example.com if you wish to accept my offer.
This message has been edited by barrysloate on Aug 9, 2006 8:25 AM This message has been edited by barrysloate on Aug 9, 2006 7:35 AM
i just looked at this piece of sh*t, if any idiot decides to bid on this card, then they deserve to have their money taken from them...im just glad they stated that they are not an authenticator...thats enough for me
... damn - here is this thread, and me without beer and popcorn.
... Leon, PLEASE don't lock the thread. It's just too unbelieveable, and despite the complete disregard the board has for this person and this card, just the magnitude of the attempted sale makes it (unfortunately) legit vintage card news.
... And yes, my initial reaction to the first post in the first thread was 'this is so pathetic it's comic'. Definitely kind of funny.
... It reminds me of talking politics with my sisters. Which in a way goes like this:
(Both looking at garbage can)
Sister: That's an antique Chinese vase.
Joann: No, no, that's actually a galvanized aluminum garbage can.
Sister: It is NOT. It is an antique Chinese vase. Probably priceless.
Joann: Really - it's an old dented garbage can that you can get at Lowe's for $20.
Sister: Well, you're entitled to your opinion.
Joann: It's not my opinion. It's fact. Every reasonable and notable source out there says it's a garbage can.
Sister: That's just the liberal media!
Heee. Really. Complete denial of any factual input in favor of crazy ideas that come from ... who knows where. Soundbites.
... It's not exactly Stonehenge. HAHAHAHAA. Now THAT is a good way to start a day!
Edited to add:
In actual political discussion with sisters, substitute this first line:
Sister: Things are going very well in Iraq. Freedom is on the march!
lolol. You can guess the rest from there. But really, there are some creepy paralles in these two Wagner threads!
This message has been edited by jmk59 on Aug 9, 2006 8:57 AM
As I tell my students that are creationists, you are entitled to your beliefs as I am to mine. Those that propose that evolution is a fact do as much disservice to the scientific standpoint as creationists that attempt to apply science to an untestable faith-based hypothesis. With that said, the research of thousands of scientists provides strong support for the theory of evolution by natural selection. Science is a way of knowing, but as I stated in my previous post is often misrepresented as an end-all. By its very nature science is continuing process by which theories evolve as new information is tested for validity.
As for these jokers, ignoring evidence that does not support a hypothesis and refusing to properly address criticism weakens any argument, and in essence is the poorest science one could evoke.
I think Sean has been watching too many rap videos. Oh' wait, this is someone else.
No offense, Sean. I couldn't resist.
"What company put the card out. I have ask this question for over 4 years and no one know the answer. So I did the resarch for you. There isn't a company out there that put this card out as a reprint."
This guy wants to know what company reprinted these cards: the Capital company reprinted the entire set and put it in a nice faux-wood box and labeled it :T-206 The Monster." See, I have that set. It loks of washed out. Cost $30 for the whole set. But I think this guy got his Wagner from another set. On this set the picture looks great, just like his reprint, but the name and team text aren't right - also like his reprint. There is also some interesting info on the back, which explains the card is worth $100,000. Funny, isn't that what he's trying to sell it for?
Too bad there isn't a more up to date reprint with the card's actual worth.
I usually don't chime in on threads like this, but really. I felt like I was reading one of those e-mails teling me that I won the lottery in Uganda and al I have to do to collect is send a blank check to some PO box in Oakland.
As I said in another post, I would hate to see what these guys are trying to get over on their customers in their REAL business. Now that I have seen their website, I am scared.
Refurbished cell phones, tasers and herbal remedies. I don't think, no, I KNOW I wouldn't want to risk my money, not to mention my life, on a refurbished cell phone or a taser from these guys. Seeing the logic and science they use and quote concerning the T206 Wagner, just think what science they can quote you on the cell phones and Taser, especially if (when?) those items don't work.
Also, I don't even want to get into the science behind the herbal remedies...
Horny Goat Weed and the science behind it. Farmer sees goat A eat weeds in a field. Goat A then proceeds to mount goat B and have sex. Farmer decides weeds that goat A ate must be an afrodisiac (I know, spelled wrong on porpoise). Farmer then has bright idea and gathers all of the weeds up and markets them....
See, they must be an afrodisiac because a farmer saw goat A eat the weeds and then mount goat B. And isn't a farmer an expert????
You guys have to give these clowns credit though. They may not be smart but they are clever. These 2 guys have taken a worthless piece of paper and received numerous articles and media coverage.
In fact, we here have even given this particular clown over 100 responses to his really really bad fake Wagner. I feel really bad for all the other scammers who are much more creative, grandpa’s attic, in between book pages etc. We don’t give those guys more than one or two responses in a thread. These two guys have raised the bar when it comes to fake Wagner’s, kudos to them.
As for my fellow forum members I can’t believe you guys take the time to explain anything to this guy or his brain dead partner in crime. Do you really think he’s going to say “hey, you guys be right!” He’s just another run of the mill a scammer with better media coverage, and greedy stupid second-rate auction house partner in crime.
If any idiot is willing or dumb enough to spend 300k on this thing, I say who cares, to me its just 300k less he can spend on real cards he knows nothing about. Any person who buys this card for 300k or $3 gets what he or she deserves.
In summary make fun of the guy…hell yes!
Why because its funny, and he’s a huge stupid target who deserves it.
Give the guy rational arguments and ethics lessons…. hell no.
Why because he’s a crook, and he’s too stupid to learn anything that you could possibly teach him.
This message has been edited by wonkaticket on Aug 9, 2006 1:03 PM
I'm not a T206 expert. I have owned 50-75 T206s over the years and now own about 5. I claim no expertise whatsoever. But when a fake is so bad that it's laughable, no expertise is needed.
The scan in the 46th post (if I counted correctly) in the "New Wagner Find" by fkw proves that the card is a fake - period. This is obvious to anyone, T206 expert, or Olberman's driver or anyone off the street.
I'm not an expert on counterfeit money either but if I noticed the oval around Franklin's face on my $100 bill was missing, unlike every other $100 I've ever seen, I would assume it was counterfeit, i.e., created to deceive. I wouldn't be surprised that the counterfeiters didn't sign their names. I wouldn't need to have the paper tested.
At first I gave these guys the huge benefit of the doubt. I thought they meant well but were simply uninformed. Now I think differently.
thank you for pointing out their website. for a long time, i have been looking for a store that can fulfill all my horny goat weed and refurbished taser needs. this one-stop-shopping bonanza has saved me a lot of time and money.
they might have a better chance of selling the card if it were listed as "refurbished."
My hope was that the recent troubling rumors of racial issues that seem to plague PSA and the network 54 forum were just that, rumors. In my investigative report I uncovered that Joe Orlando built the PSA Empire on Black Exploitation films. A shocking discovery indeed!
And now in part 2 of my investigative report it seems this conspiracy goes even deeper. I had two undercover agents submit 2 T206 Chance cards to SGC. Notice the grades! Shocking!!!
I am really glad “TheCard” has brought this to our attention. I will continue to pursue this issue, and will not rest until it resolved. I have also turned out the lights as instructed, and I seem to be walking into a lot more furniture…
This message has been edited by wonkaticket on Aug 9, 2006 1:42 PM This message has been edited by wonkaticket on Aug 9, 2006 1:41 PM
Another problem I foresee is all the publicity this card is receiving. By it being in both an auction house and on eBay, it is getting an air of legitimacy to it, especially when it has "scientific analysis" with it.
Now, just think, a couple of people across the country see all of this and think their (fake) Wagner card is real and take the time and money to have their card evaluated by experts. When the analysis comes back as negative, ie the card is NOT vintage but a newer reprint, those people might also think the world is against them and wanting to rip them off. Thus starting another round on this comic Merry-Go-Round.
The real shame would be if someone out there has a box of T206 cards (ala the Indianapolis OJ find) with a real Honus Wagner in it. They see the auction and newspaper articles about this fake card and decide to not trust having their own card graded but instead to have the paper tested and in doing so, damage or destroy a real Wagner card. What a crime.
Russ, I literally fell off my chair laughing with your post. "Complete Sentence Man" needs to fly in and save this dolt now. I would recommend people bidding so as to give Jethro here some money to spend on some remedial English classes, but I remembered that anyone can still attend public 2nd grade for free. Billy Madison, watch out.
HBO's Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel is actually planning to cover the "controversy" surrounding this card on August 15. Since the auction ends August 12 I guess they can interview the happy winner and proud former owners.
Caption of an authentic T206 Wagner Caption of a common T206 Wagner reprint from the 1980s Caption of the T206 $300K (reprint) on eBay.
Notice the "P" and "G" in caption is slightly larger than the "ittsbur" on the authentic card, also the ink color of the caption is more of a grey color and not black like on the reprints. Also notice the distance between the "R" and "P" in "Wagner, Pittsburg" is far wider on the authentic card. Also notice the black line is missing from around the photo, and the "G" on in uniform is touching the border on the reprint.
It doesnt get any easier than that, a 5 year old can tell the difference if he knows where to look.......
Its an obvious reprint front with (maybe) an authentic back.
I guess we'll see it again next year, and the next and the next. This reprint wont go away.....
But not quite!
I'll take 4 of those Wagners and a chocolate malt to go!
seriously, anyone who can write THAT long of a diatribe, with such stylistic quality and lack of edumacated verbiage, must truly be talenticated in the most detail-oriented manner...a misunderstood genius, if you will.
I mean, referring to the spell-checking function as a personified sidekick like that? can't you just picture this guy in a black mask, sitting down at his PC with a fan blowing his technicolor cape out into the room behind him in billowing waves, loudly snapping the edges of the fabric against his collection of lava lamps and paper-mache volcanoes, while he types furiously with both index fingers and yelling at his mother to stop throwing away his adult magazines?!
If this is the real guy, thank goodness he came out of the proverbial closet to show us the level of his intelligence, trustworthiness, education, and taste.
wait a minute!
SEAN, IS THAT YOU???
oh my goodness..ok, I'm going to go and finish laughing my ass off and wetting my pants now...haven't had this much fun since they killed off Independent George!
This message has been edited by leinbergeranz on Aug 9, 2006 3:03 PM
I'm very surprised Real Sports is even bothering with this story. It's actually a very good show and does -- for the most part -- first-rate journalism.
I work at a large newspaper and was always taught that just because huge dollar figures are being thrown around -- i.e. in a big lawsuit -- that doesn't mean you pursue the story if the lawsuit is ridiculous on its face.
If every expert in the hobby declares this a fake, that really puts an end to the story. Unless it's a story focusing on how people get duped, or how to perpetrate a big scam. But from the show's description, that doesn't sound like the case.
With a reasonable opening bid, with such a clear explanation from "TheCard" about how there are no experts here, and with Frank Ward with his 18 so called "real" Honus Wagners is trying to make fools of us, I figured to get this card in a PSA holder and make $100,000.
Then I saw that the seller was a negro. Well, I don't buy my T206 Wagners from NEGROES!!!!
So have Bryant Gumbel call me and put me on his show!!! The HBO show can be "T206 Wagner would had sold if not for a racist card collector!"
On the other hand, if they will take the million dollar bill (which I obtained at the mall last week) as payment and give me back the rest in change, I may change my mind.
Here's the deal. The owners have been told that most serious collectors won't
purchase the card unless it is in a PSA, SGC or similar holder. They haven't been
able to find a buyer for several years because the card is not such a holder. The owners
also know that the card will sell easier and for more money if the card is
in one of these holders. As noted, GAI (a respectable grader) will grade the
card with the owners viewing. There is no legitimate reason why the owners haven't
had the card examined by one of these graders IF they believe the card to be original.
If they don't beleive the card to be original, that would be a legitimate reason
to not let a grader look at it.
Let's do some logic math.
T206 Wagner graded by PSA = (faster sale) + (more money) + (no legal liability).
T206 Wagner not graded by PSA or similar = (slower sale) + (less money) + (seller takes on more liability)
Now, why would the owner of a T206 Honus Wagner, especialy one who knows most collectors
won't buy the card unless it's in a reputable holder, pick the second equation. It
shouldn't take Issac Newton or Albert Eisnstein (both famous scientists) to figure out
that one. If you had every Nobel Prize Winner in science, every science department
chair at MIT, Harvard, Oxford and Cambridge look at those equations, they would say
they would have their authentic t206 Honus Wagner graded by PSA before sale. I am confident
even the owners' hired experts would pick the first equation. Even if the paper examiner
felt his examination is worthwhile and added to the knowledge about the card he would
chose to have his original T206 Honus Wagner be grade as it means more money.
If on Star Trek, Dr. Spock told the evil overlord supergenius computer robot
that someone who beleives his Wagner is original and wants to maximize his
profits has chosen the second equation, the robot would say "Does ... Not ...
Compute! .... Does ... Not ...Compute!" until it's head exploded, saving fair
(and sexy) inhabitants of the planet Herloniturion next week's episode.
If you told the same to the Mad Hatter in Alice in Wonderland, he would say,
"Makes perfect sense. The key to maximizing your profits, is to ensure it
sells for less.The key to selling things faster is to make things sells
slower. The key to lowering your liabiliy is to increase your liability.
As I said, it makes perfect sense."
This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 4:17 PM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 4:08 PM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 4:07 PM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 3:51 PM
It might be an interesting topic for the HBO show if a new T206 Wagner popped up and the collecting community was evenly and vociferously divided over its authenticity. But in this case NO ONE says it's real.
Doesn't Connelly wonder why Mastro doesn't want this card?
Does HBO find the owners' "experts" credible?
Why is SCD advertising this auction?
Ebay has terminated the listing of this identical card five times before. Why haven't they done so this time?
Where is Rod Serling when we need him?
This message has been edited by uffda51 on Aug 9, 2006 3:55 PM
Out of curiosity, of the big three grading companies, have all of them graded a Wagner? I've seen scans of PSA Wagner slabs, but no SGC or GIA. None of the top T206 sets in the SGC registry have a Wagner.
I may not know Chupcabra from Horny Goat Weed but the card is obviously a fake. Race is not an issue (I will admit I had not heard or seen anyone use the term "Negro" since about 1975 until I read this thread), the issue is whether or not guys who (as pointed out above)spend way too much of their time (myself included) peering at and examining pieces of cardboard have the expertise to distinguish between an altered or reprinted card and the real thing. The answer is an easy yes.
Interesting point Joe, an easy way to tell a fake sometimes is to invert the color spectrum. Almost always the black becomes white and vice a versa. Notice the thin black line now outlines the picture in whiteish silver. The brownish ink used in the script almost always becomes gray in real T206s.
Here is the mystery card and 2 other lucky peoples genuine Wagner’s. I’m sure you guys know this stuff, but its boring waiting for conference calls and I like to play in Photoshop as if you didn’t already know.
According to Bob Connelly's web site (http://www.bobconnelly.com), "Bob now serves nationally in the Appraisers Association of America, where he's been a member of its Board of Directors since 1995, and holds that Society's highest designation."
According to the Code of Ethics on their web site (http://www.appraisersassoc.org) Bob has either violated their rules when it comes to Objectivity, or every T-206 Wagner reprint should be deemed authentic. The wording as it appears on their web site is as follows:
Assumption of Responsibility
It is the responsibility of the individual appraiser to contract for appraisal work only within the areas of his or her professional competence and expertise. Every appraiser must sign and certify his or her appraisal. In the event that an appraiser discovers, after contracting for an appraisal, that he or she is not qualified to carry out the full appraisal, he or she must call upon, or recommend to the owner or custodian of the property, an appraiser who is qualified for that portion of the appraisal not within his or her area of expertise.
All items of property covered within an appraisal must be appraised objectively, independent of outside influences and without any other motive or purpose than stated in said appraisal. All items must be described accurately and all factors affecting their valuation must be stated clearly and concisely with the highest degree of accuracy.
Examination of Property
All items for appraisal must be examined personally by the appraiser, or be so noted.
He is either not qualified, in which case under the assumption of responsibilty he would have to find an expert in the area, or authenticity is not a factor in valuation. Although I have never previously heard of the Appraisers Association of America, I am sure that their reputation, and the insurance underwriters for the appraisals they write, would be severely compromised by Mr. Connelly's assertions of authenticity and appraisal.
I can see why these two guys are perpetuating this sham- at the very least they are getting their 15 minutes of fame- but for the life of me I can't see why Connelly Auctions wants to be a party in this. That one I just can't figure out. Getting back to Bryant Gumbel, he has a staff whose job is to research the card and report back to him. I can say with certainty that their search will lead them to network54. We are not a bunch of yokels working out of our basements (Wayne's World?) but a powerful force in the hobby. There's a good chance that some of what has been disseminated here will appear on the show. It will be worth watching to find out.
We are all being entertained at the expense of using our time for something more productive...I just wasted 20 minutes reading this long thread about nothing, something that a Seinfeld episode should have been about.
I cannot believe that HBO will actually do a story on this ridiculous fake card with no credibility except for a fake back mounted on a reprint.
Has the world really a place for this lunacy, I guess it does... here on Net 54, the place for controversial
topics about nothing... maybe Keith Olbermann and Bill O Reilly can settle their differences here too, Keith is well ahead on points and at least he knows about baseball cards.
First let me say that these two con-artists know this card is fake. There is no way to convince me that they honestly believe that they are still holding a real T206.
Second, there are no scientific tests that can prove that a card is an authentic baseball card. The only way to prove it is to have experts in the field of vintage baseball cards examine the card and give their opinion.
These two clowns are avoiding the experts at all costs and attacking them with contempt, name calling and accusations of racism (which I believe to be almost as bad as being racist, but that's just me). Your bringing up race is a clear sign of your desperation in the eleventh hour. It is pathetic.
If someone has something they believe to be authentic, then they will go to experts in the field to get their opinions. I can assure these two losers that many members of this board are in fact experts in the field of vintage baseball cards. These are the people who can authenticate your card as a real or fake baseball card, not a paper examiner.
Ask any of your scientists to publicly state that your card is in fact a 1909 T206 Honus Wagner baseball card, the most coveted baseball card in the world, and they will tell you they can not do that. They can only tell you that the paper is old, or the type matches similar type in that time period. That does not constitute it's authenticity as a baseball card.
My name is Andy Huntoon. Thank you.
This message has been edited by CobbSpikedMe on Aug 9, 2006 4:24 PM
The thing about HBO is that they are familiar with with sports memorabilia fakes,
and have used the services of PSA/DNA, GAI and Richard Simon for autographs.
If there is a show on this card, HBO likely will have PSA, SGC and GAI all
exaimine the card. HBO wasn't born yesterday as far as fakes and forgeries go,
and can tell the difference from Donald Frangipani and Global Authentication.
I don't see how they wouldn't have a legitimate expert give opinion on the card.
There is a reasonable chance that HBO already believes the card is a fake, which
is why they are doing the story. As noted, they have don't exposes of fakes
and fakers in the past. There's no reason to believe this story won't be
HBO will know the difference between Bill Mastro (who has called the card a
reprint) and someone who mispelled the colleges he went to on his resume.
This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 5:16 PM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 4:57 PM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 4:53 PM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 4:50 PM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 4:46 PM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 4:38 PM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 9, 2006 4:30 PM
"In collaboration with Sports Illustrated, REAL SPORTS correspondent Bernard Goldberg examines the history of this tantalizing card and explores the current controversy. Is the new buyer really purchasing the holy grail of collectibles?"
I don't doubt that the HBO reporters will figure it out. I guess I'm just bothered by this blurb on the HBO site trumpeting the piece. It seems pretty cut and dry that it's NOT one of the holy grail cards, so in effect, that ends the story. I mean, this isn't even a good fake.
How it has gotten this far is beyond me.
Hopefully, the Real Sports story will go a different direction and explore the scammer angle, how common this sort of thing is, why eBay's allowing the auction to proceed, etc. Lots of ways this could be made into an interesting story. It's simply that the way the story's trumpeted on the HBO site doesn't seem that compelling to me.
i will be very surprised if HBO comes out and says the card is an obvious fake. if indeed the story is about this wagner,look for the david vs. golaith type coverage,with the 2 owners front and center stage.
I'd like a show of hands: "Who believes Bryant Gumbel would not waste one second of time on this whole incident if the seller were not an African-American?"
That's the real race card being played here. If the seller were Asian, Hispanic, Caucasian, or Martian, my gut reaction is that Gumbel wouldn't touch it.
Race I believe has nothing at all to do with this. How many african-americans own Honus Wagners? Anyone know?
All those clowns from Real Sports busted by the Feds for being "ignorant authenticators" were all caucasians.
They have to know about this card in advance...but I'm also utterly shocked that they would announce this story before the ending has been written. After all, what if eBay pulls this? Will the two men who own the card comment about the card? Will Joe be interviewed? Will Bill? Heck, will Monsieur Mint? Why wasn't Pro called on this or the 'Gradeyourownfreaking" card company? How about our own Leon Luckey all decked out in VBC Forum gear chatting away? Will there be a figure in the shadow who refuses to reveal himself?
I gave two big thumbs up for their work with the witch doctors who call themselves authenticators and I'm hoping that they equally please me later on this month. There will surely be three figures in thread additions two seconds after it airs.
Oh, Wonka...awesome as usual! You are a true "artiste" with your rich devotion to Joe. O and Mr. Mint art work! Keep up the good work!
I was shocked to see in Joe's posting that Capital company chose to hi-jack the name I gave to T206 on the cover of my 1980 book--T206 The Monster. Now on point. I have been paid some pretty good money and been flown to far away places to authenticate a "Wagner." One such trip yielded a Wagner, Boston AL! I even spotted a fake at a dealer's table at a show, which he immediately took off his table and returned to the person he bought it from who gladly accepted it back "only after I talk to Heitman." Of the 20 to 25 that I have been asked to authenticate, only one was real. It is impossible to authenticate a Wagner without seeing it in person and examining it. But I will say that a picture can reveal a fake. I have been shown pictures of what purported to be a Wagner along with an offer to fly me somewhere to examine the card. Many times I have told the owner of a reprint that he need not bother to pay me to be told that his card is not an original. Having said this, let me add that the pictures I've seen of this card reveal just what it really is.
I believe it was August 15th, but if you are like me, you have "several" HBO's and they basically play the same shows everyday from there on in. They may also have it on the "HBO On Demand" feature so you can watch it anytime you want.