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Provided here are the hi-lites from the resulting data acquired from the very popular EPDG
Thread (362 posts) by Barry Arnold. Forum members' inputs exceeded 700 cards in the multiple
surveys in this Thread which reflected several 1000's of cards in members' collections.
1st..order of confirmation was that the El Principe de Gales T206 back is indeed a tough back to
acquire. Inputs from small and large T206 collections yielded only 1 in 100 cards (1%) that had
the EPDG back.
2nd..A subset of this survey developed....in that an EPDG back is not supposed to exist with any
T206 cards that are not in the 350 Series. And to this end, multiple surveys resulted in which
possible T206 candidates in the "150-only" category were gradually eliminated as more inputs
were provided.
3rd....Also, in this process, the "Piedmont Primacy" theory was developed which identified certain
150/350 cards with exclusive Piedmont 350 backs (which have proven to be very scarce). This will
be discussed in a subsequent post in this Thread.
Shown here are the three remaining cards from this survey (and also other surveys) that still have
not yielded any confirmed "350" backs. These 3 are Ames (hands/chest), Ewing, and Schulte (front
view). Depicted with them are all their confirmed backs.
We are still searching........does anyone have any 350 backs on these three cards ?
This message has been edited by tedzan on Sep 7, 2006 9:18 PM This message has been edited by tedzan on Sep 6, 2006 7:37 PM
New to the forum- missed on the EPdG thread, but let me throw my 2(06) cents in. I've informally tracked front/back combos for quite a while and can add that I've seen the Ames with a Piedmont 350, but no other 350's. I've also seen it with EPdG, Hindu and Old Mill. O-fer the Ewing and Schulte.
Of my 500+ T206's, I have 25 EPdG's, most of which I grabbed in the 90's (mostly Sloate, Lipset, Doubleheaders/Wheat, Howard's and EPSCC) and have noticed that there are many fewer on the market in the last couple of years, and that they are becoming more dear as less are coming out of collectors' hands than are going in. In terms of series breakdown, my 25 are as follow: 150 only- 0; 150/350- 11; 350 only- 8; 350/460- 5; and 460 only- 1.
I sent my list in to Bill Brown (if I did it right), but thought I'd add by back breakdown to help anyone else's research
American Beauty 350 w/frame: 23
American Beauty 350 no frame: 4
American Beauty 460: 3
Broadleaf 350: 5
Broadleaf 460: 1
To which a note- several years ago, at Ft. Washington (right after they moved) a dealer had a small stack (8-10) of Broadleaf 460's- I purchased a Snodgrass and an O'Leary. All the cards were VG or worse. Never saw that dealer or those Broadleafs again. I hope some of you grabbed those, or maybe even purchased the O'Leary from Barry Sloate.
Carolina Bright: 7
Cycle 350: 32
Cycle 460: 6
Drum 350: 2 (Jackson, Sweeney-Bos.)
EPdg: 25
Hindu (brown): 30 (13 of which are SL's)
Lenox: 2 (Abbaticchio, M. Brown)
Old Mill: 23
Old Mill SL: 32
Piedmont 150: 33
Piedmont 350: 40
Piedmont 350-460(25): 9
Piedmont 350-460(42): 2
Polar Bear: 41
Sovereign 150: 24
Sovereign 350: 43
Sovereign 460: 7
Sweet Cap 150(25): 9
Sweet Cap 150(30): 13
Sweet Cap 150(649): 9
Sweet Cap 350(25): 10
Sweet Cap 350(30): 28
Sweet Cap 460(25): 1
Sweet Cap 460(30): 8
Sweet Cap 460(42): 2
Sweet Cap 460(OP): 5
Tolstoi: 19
Uzit: 1 (Steinfeldt)
Hope this helps someone and I'll be happy to try and answer questions this might engender.
I would also like to see stats on Southern Leaguer breakdown by back- I've alsways thought it was 45% Piedmont, 50% Old Mill and about 5% Hindu, but the Hindu #s may be a little high from what I've seen over the last few years.
This message has been edited by juddhamlin on Sep 6, 2006 10:30 PM
Very interesting to hear of your Ames with a P350 back. Also, do I understand that
you have (or have seen) Ewing and Schulte with P350 backs ? And, can you positively
confirm these cards ?
In the EPDG thread (and other surveys) no such backs for these cards have surfaced.
And, we are talking about a total sample of 5000 - 8000 T206's.
Incidently, you can find the EPDG Thread (by Barry Arnold) on Page 6 of this Forum's
listing (approx. in the middle of that page). You will find it very informative; if you
are patient enough to read most of the 362 posts that are in it.
Hi Ted,
I think Judd's "O-fer" reference means that he has NOT seen Ewing or Schulte (Front View) in 350. I am not too surprised that he has seen Ames (Hands at Chest) in 350; I guess that leaves Ewing and Schulte (Front View) as the sole survivors among the 150-only candidates. The interesting thing about Ewing (which I'm sure has not escaped your attention) is that he IS available with EPDG; thus, if he is a 150-only subject it suggests that the known 150-only subjects (other than Wagner and Magie, of course) may be possible with EPDG. We should think about offering a bounty for Ewing and Schulte (Front View) in 350. I'd be willing to chip in. By the way, I like the graphic in your post.
Scot
This message has been edited by sreader3 on Sep 6, 2006 11:23 PM This message has been edited by sreader3 on Sep 6, 2006 11:21 PM This message has been edited by sreader3 on Sep 6, 2006 11:20 PM This message has been edited by sreader3 on Sep 6, 2006 11:19 PM This message has been edited by sreader3 on Sep 6, 2006 11:18 PM This message has been edited by sreader3 on Sep 6, 2006 11:13 PM
Top drawer elucidative summary, TRex.
As we continue to digest the groundbreaking efforts of Scot Reader's work,while observing the formation of the T206 super set,
and the gradual unfolding of the PRIMACY OF PIEDMONT THEORY, we anticipate
discoveries are just around the corner.
Then a T206 scholarly monograph will be in order.
Right?! Ted et al.
All the best,
Barry
This message has been edited by ethicsprof on Sep 7, 2006 2:51 AM
That would, in fact, be no sightings of either with 350 backs. I do not have the Ames with the 350, but probably didn't think too much of it at the time I saw it, pre-VCBC, this site, etc.
I'll also throw out the Hindu SL bit again- what is the consensus on population (not just graded) for these cards, and are some more "common" (read as less impossible) than others?
There was a dealer (Old timer, I forget who but with a really awful toupe and lousy prices that he did not bargain down; anyone else know?) with a book of hundreds of T206s, and he had several pages of EPDG.
Regarding the T206 So. Lgers with HINDU backs. Brian Weisner is the expert
on the availability of these particulat HINDU backs. Brian has noted that 37
of the 42 possible So Lgers exist with HINDU backs.
Regarding this series with respect to Piedmont 350 and Old Mill (So.) backs,
all 48 cards in this series have either of these backs.
I am sure Brian will respond and elaborate on this subject better than I can.
No need for a scan on Ewing......until now I had not seen a Sov 150 back for him.
Although, I expected one to eventually show up.
Thanks much for this input, I will have to modify my graphic to include your input.
Quite quickly, as the numerous inputs to the EPDG Thread were received, an interesting
pattern became evident. Certain cards that were primarily 150-Series cards on rare oc-
casions would show up with a Piedmont 350 back. But, never with a Sweet Caporal 350
or Sovereign 350 back. Multiple surveys, reflecting 1000's of different backs, confirmed
this Piedmont exclusivity.
This factor actually reinforced an earlier theory that the T206 designers first produced
the Piedmont cards in each Series. This fact appears evident by considering the MAGIE
and Joe DOYLE errors. They exist only with Piedmont backs (as is simulated in the 1st
picture here). We can only assume that both these errors were caught very early (the
Doyle quicker than the Magie); and therefore, production of them did not get beyond
the initial Piedmont press run.
There is a 3rd card in the T206 set that appears to have been printed with only Piedmont
backs and that is the Carl Lundgren (Cubs) card. However, the P350 version is quite rare.
Also, this card can be found with an EPDG back. However, this is an extremely rare card.
There are 6 more "150 Series" cards in the set that are short-printed exclusively with P350
backs (no Sweet Caporal 350 or Sovereign 350) and these cards will be depicted in the
forthcoming PART III post.
This message has been edited by tedzan on Sep 8, 2006 11:54 AM
Besides Carl Lundgren (Cubs), there are six additional 150/350 cards in the T206
set that appear only with Piedmont 350 backs. And, I find this very interesting,
since these 6 cards are available in the 150 Series with Piedmont, Sweet Caporal,
and Sovereign backs. Anyhow, there is a logical explanation for these particular
cards not fully continuing in the 350 Series; and, Scot Reader (in his book) details
these players' trades, or transfers to Minor Lge. status during 1909-10.
Furthermore, if one is trying to complete a "Super Set", or just collect all the front/back
permutations with just Piedmont cards; they will have a tough time finding these six
P350 cards. They are definitely "short-printed" and surveys have indicated that their
availability is a mere 2% of the 150/350 population of any one of these 6 cards.
Shown here are these six....Bill Dahlen (Boston)....Bob Ganley....Tom Jones (St. Louis)
Ed Karger....Vive Lindaman....George Mullin (throwing).
Occasionally, these six cards are found with either a HINDU or EPDG back. Also, an
OLD MILL back is possible, but very, very rarely.
But, so far no Sweet Caporal 350 or Sovereign 350 backs have been found.
So, once again guys....check-out these 6 cards in your T206 collections and let's see
what backs you have ?
I have never looked into the possibility of SC "350-only" cards. But, I will remind
you that I am near completion of my 520 card "Piedmont-only" set (minus Wagner
and Plank) and I have not come across any missing Piedmont card in this entire
run of T206's. But, an educated guess is that if you tried to complete a T206 set
of only Sweet Caporal backs you would need approx. 510 cards (minus Wagner &
Plank) .
But you seem to be skeptical about what I am saying; so, if you combine all the data
in Scot Reader's extensive survey and the data in Bill's Spread Sheet and the data we
have tabulated in Barry Arnold's EPDG Thread, you will see that for every Sweet Caporal
input there is a corresponding Piedmont input for a given card. But, the reverse is not
true for about a dozen cards that are P150 or P350 (but no SC or Sov counterparts).
This message has been edited by tedzan on Sep 9, 2006 7:11 PM
It's been a long day.....what can I say.....except you are so right.
When I was typing that 510 number, something in the back of my
mind was telling me....it's incorrect.
So.....510 - 48 = 462 cards
I have started this "T206 craze" with an "Piedmont-only" set, and at this
point, I am just 29 cards shy of completing it
It's obvious then, that an "Sweet Caporal-only" set is easier to complete.
So....I dare someone to try it.
T-Rex TED
This message has been edited by tedzan on Sep 9, 2006 7:08 PM
The "Super Set" data has shown Piedmont 350 for all of the cards, except the Lindaman, and Lindaman Piedmont 350 just recently sold on ebay. No Sweet Caporal 350 or Sovereign 350 have been seen.
What about Pasorius? Haven't seen a 350 series card.
I have no info on Pastorius beyond the 150-Series. Have we overlooked him ?
He had a very short Major Lge. career (1906-1909); and, only a few games in 1909.
Therefore, can we conclude that the T206 designers did not extend him into the 350 Series ?
But, Pastorious has always been classified as a 150/350 card. So, can we anticipate that
he may eventually appear as a P350 (only) card ?
We need to include him in this survey.
Thanks....for any info on this card......T-Rex TED
P.S....Bill I have a few more backs to give you that are not on your current SS.
The "Super Set" is has over 3500 different backs now. I just input a Pastorius 350 Piedmont. I emailed the collector that submitted it to confirm that the data was correct. Here is a list using the data gaithered on the "Super Set":
150/350 Series with no cards in the 350 Series
Ames Hands at Chest
Ewing
Hinchman Cleveland
Schulte Front View
150/350 Series with only Piedmont 350
Beaumont
Chase Pink
Cobb Green Background
Conroy Fielding
Criger
Dahlen Boston
Davis Chicago
Ganley
Jones, Tom
Karger
Lundgren
Mullin Throwing
Pastorius
Shaw St. Louis
Waddell Throwing
White Portrait
I just sampled 10 T206 Pastorious cards and their backs are......5 - P150, 4 - SC150
and an OLD MILL. The OLD MILL implies there must be a "350" somewhere.
I recently owned a Ganley with Piedmont 350. The only reason I bought it was because it had a 350 back and I had never before seen Ganley with a 350 back. It was F-G and I sold it on eBay for $20 earlier this year before I knew anybody else cared about 150/350 subjects who are difficult to find with 350 backs. Now I regret it.
Of course, we all recently saw Lindaman with a Piedmont 350 back at auction.
And we all know Brian W. has Jones (St. Louis) with a Piedmont 350 back.
So, correct me if I am wrong, but aside from Ewing and Schulte (Front View), who have not yet been confirmed with any 350 back, the only subject conventionally thought to be a 150/350 subject who nobody seems to have yet seen with a Piedmont 350 back is Wilhelm (Hands at Chest). I expect he will turn up in Piedmont 350 with sufficient looking.
Scot
This message has been edited by sreader3 on Sep 14, 2006 12:56 PM
I have included your Tom Jones (P350) in the updated tabulation.
SCOT
I am including your Ganley (P350); and, the Lindaman (P350) you reported in the
EPDG thread in the updated tabulation.
Also, I am adding Wilhelm (Hands at chest) as an additional card to this survey. I
will start it off with the 4 cards of him that I currently have (all 4 are P150).
George Mullin..........20............0............4............2
(throw-Horiz)
Wilhelm..................13............1............0............0...........1
(hands at chest)
Total # of inputs = 144
Total # of P350 = 7......and Wilhelm SC350 = 1
Come on you T206 afficiandos....we need your contributions (it doesn't cost you anything)
to this SURVEY to see if these particular T206's have Sov 350 or Sweet Caporal 350 backs ? ?
Edited to add inputs from BARRY and BRIAN
This message has been edited by tedzan on Sep 14, 2006 3:30 PM
Brian is right (good memory Brian), I had a very large group of T206 Sovereigns last year. Let me know what info you need, I'll try to see what I can dig up. You can put it here or send a more detailed message if you like (oldorioles@aol.com).
Dave
This message has been edited by Oldoriole on Sep 16, 2006 11:11 AM
I am considering starting a Survey on Sovereign backs, similar to the EPDG survey.
This is possibly a lead-in to starting a SOVEREIGN-only set of T206's.
I am 26 cards shy of completing a 518 card PIEDMONT-only set. So, I need a new
challenge.
I just acquired a the last two Lindaman cards I needed to complete all the possible backs
that are available for this particular T206. This is a subset of my T206 collection and I will
try to continue this very interesting challenge for quite a few cards in this set.
Just another way of collecting T206's that I thought you T206 guys might find satisfying.
It's my understanding that Scot R. (in his document) and Brian W. (in posts) both have
addressed when EPDG backs were first introduced. That EPDG's were simultaneously
introduced at the very beginning of the 350 Series cards.
The Ewing card (with several EPDG backs) appears to be an exception to this "rule",
as no 350 Series back have been reported (yet) in three different surveys.
Be patient....as the Tom Jones and Vive Lindaman cards have proven (later rather
than sooner) a Piedmont 350 back will eventually surface for Ewing.
It may be that EPDG printing started early on (earlier than, for example, Old Mill) and that at least some of the well-known 150-only subjects [e.g. Brown (Cubs on Shirt), Burch (Batting), Evers (Blue Sky), etc.] will eventually surface with the EPDG back. I base this on the Net54 Ewing survey that revealed him with EPDG and the fact that my own eBay survey data shows one instance of Brown (Cubs on Shirt) with EPDG--although admittedly I could have recorded this wrong or it may have come from an ebay listing that included the wrong back scan.
If you'll indulge wild speculation, perhaps EPDG printing started AFTER Hindu, Piedmont 150, Soveriegn 150 and Sweet Cap 150 but BEFORE the 350 series printing, leading to a very short printing of at least some of the 150-only subjects with EPDG.
Of course, it may be that my Brown (Cubs on Shirt) data point is wrong and that Ewing surfaces with Piedmont 350, in which case Ted's above analysis carries the day.
Scot
This message has been edited by sreader3 on Sep 22, 2006 2:32 PM This message has been edited by sreader3 on Sep 22, 2006 2:29 PM
Lee's question reminds me that in your Spread Sheet....you show an EPDG back
for Mordecai Brown (Cubs)....a 150-only card. This unusual card really throws a
"monkey-wrench" into all our theories ?
Do we have an explanation for this ?
I ask this because of the Ewing card, which possibly there is no 350 card of him.
Here is a list of cards that have 150 cards and only Sweet caps in the 350 series from Bill's data. Does anyone have any of these cards in 350 other than Sweet Cap?
Bradley Port
H. Davis
Doolin
Gibson
Griffith Port
Hahn
Herzog NY
Lajoie, throwing
Lobert
McQuillan, throwing
Lee.....I am still providing front/back inputs to Bill Brown.
But, more significantly, you cannot keep using his Spread Sheet as the final
word on these T206 backs. At this point, Bill's SS has only 3000-4000 samples.
The cumulative total of three other survey's exceeds 20,000 cards.
No problem guy.....and don't be apologetic about it. You certainly brought to our
attention a valid question regarding the backs on some of these 150/350 Series
T206's.
We still have not seen a Wilhelm (arms at chest) P350. But, as you observed there
exists an SC350 version of him. I was hoping you would start a new survey Thread.
I'm not trying to be contentious, Lee. After all these years we are really starting to
unravel some of the mysteries of this set. First, we have Bill Heitman to thank for
his precedent-setting book; and recently, Scot Reader's great document.
Lee....don't stop posting here.....you are keeping me honest, really.
I just went through the Sovereign collection and all the backs you surveyed were Sovereign 150, except for Jones which was Piedmont 350. So no new light shed.
Found this neat advertisement this past weekend in a nearby antique store.
No reference to BB cards, as this adv. preceded the T206 set issue by a year.
El Principe de Gales first started producing Cigars in the mid 1800's.
many thanks for the display of this beauty!
as you indicated to Lee, the breadth and depth of these recent 206 backs
discussions continue to be most illuminative, no matter what tributary we
find ourselves travelling.
again, a great ride!
Sooner or later, I knew a P350 back for this card would surface....I, too found
one, the link is posted below. Suddenly, two of them, when for a long time we
did not see any.
More significantly, we still have 3 cards that have not really been confirmed
as 150/350 cards.
And, also the six 150/350 cards, that I contend exist only with P350 backs,
have not surfaced with any other Tobacco brand backs in the 350 Series.
But, once again, I think we have exhausted interest in these surveys.
Whatever.....I will be posting another T-card controversy sometime soon.
Just getting caught up on things after a summer of Corvetting rather than baseball carding.
Of the 7 cards in question, 6 are 150-variety. Wilhelm, hands at chest is a Piedmont 350.
So now there are three of them very recently reported.
I have received a couple of emails with new inputs on these 7 cards. And, I am on my
way to pick up a small collection of T206's.....which include several of these particular
cards. Therefore, I will be updating this Survey for the final time this afternoon.
So, you T206 guys....this is your final chance to contribute your inputs to this survey.
Thanx for your time and effort on this subject.....it's been a great ride.
All the credit is attributed to you for having the intellectual curiosity to initiate
what turned out to be one of the most interesting and certainly more informative
Threads that I have seen in the relatively short time I have been on this Forum.
Your EPDG thread's timing....along with Scot Reader's great analysis of the T206
set....has enlightened many of us "die-hard" T206 collectors. I definitely can say
that I have gained a greater appreciation for the complexity of this set.
Ted, can you elaborate on your thoughts as to why Karger and Wilhelm
are not appearing on El Principe de Gales? Pehaps too small a sample size?
Pesonally, I suppose the EPDG print run of those subjects already in 150
series did not last long (months?)
And, in the case of Wilhelm, I find it hard to believe both SC and Piedmont
issued it before EPDG. (doesn't fit the brand issue time-line suggested by Lipset)
Nevertheless, thanks for sharing this data with the board
many thanks for the kind words.
i find myself continuing to 'chew on' the Piedmont Primacy Theory which
you have delineated for us in such groundbreaking ways.
i think this particular part of the research will continue for years to
come and has the most potential for keeping generations to come Mesmerized!
A great ride for a very long while, methinks.
I added Wilhelm to this mix, since in other recent surveys, the question arose that he
was listed with only a SC350 back. For a long time (25 inputs long) thiswas so. Then,
just in this past week, 5 - P350 cards showed up (3 on Ebay & 2 via Emails to me).
So, my point is, if we were to continue this survey, an EPDG back would eventually
show up for this Wilhelm card. Recall, in the original EPDG Thread, only 1% of any
given size collection yielded an EPDG back. Does that mean we might have to wait
for a 100-card sample......No, I am sure an EPDG will show up sooner than that.
This Wilhelm card goes "deep" into the 350 Series.
John Scott, who collects T206 Dodgers with every possible back has this Wilhelm,
with an OLD MILL back. Wilhelm is certainly much more available with an assortment
of backs than the above six cards originally noted in this survey.
Speaking about these six....you also asked about Karger....this card like the other
five did not go "deep" into the 350 Series. Therefore, I am not that certain that
an EPDG back will surface for him. At the time the 350 Series was being produced,
Karger was traded to Boston, so possibly the T206 designers did not want to
continue printing this Cincinatti version with any other backs beyond the P350.
T-Rex TED
This message has been edited by tedzan on Oct 16, 2006 11:28 PM
