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Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007 at 2:12 PM

ScottIngold  (Login aloof1003)

 
This is a link to some thoughts on where the Wagner came from. Throw in the history about an uncut sheet containing this and a Plank....... Well just real intersting reading.

Simply amazing that this could happen and be kept quiet for so long. I also have a feeling that with all of the knowledge and history on this board that more than a few could add to this.

http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=718115&CategoryID=498428&startcat=1&ThreadID=2759585

 
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(Premier Login leonl)
Forum Owner

Scott

February 28 2007, 2:19 PM 

I would prefer not to have links to other forums listed on this site, that are essentially doing the same thing this one does. There is no animosity towards those guys whatsoever and I wish them the best. As far as I know almost everyone over there posts on this board too, which is great. I will leave this one, no big deal, but would prefer not to have links posted to other sites in the future.....especially on the main forum. I have nothing against Jay and Scott for starting that one but the reason they started it is because of the banner ads on this one (and Scott and I hadn't kissed and made up yet ). I don't feel the banner ads have harmed this site at all, nor has anyone kept their mouth shut about anything (which is good too)....regards

 
 


(Login vintagewhitesox)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 2:43 PM 

"Throw in the history about an uncut sheet containing this and a Plank"

Is that a fact, or just speculation?
If it is fact true, why hasn't anyone said this in relation to the sale in the past few days?

 
 

(Login tedzan)

SCOTT

February 28 2007, 3:13 PM 

Here is the Thread you initiated in 2005 that provides a lot of debate on this topic......

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1131565466/last-1132579205/lawsuit+against+psa+for+10.5+million+awarded+to........

 
 

(Login croftscocoa)

Leon, you will be waiting a long time if you think......

February 28 2007, 3:25 PM 

we are going to kiss (no offense - you have the wrong plumbing to be my type is all)! However, we have buried the hatchet and I am glad.

Josh - I have been telling people about this card for a long time now - going back to the old boards. I caught a lot of Hell for it as well, since it involves Bill Mastro and some of the big dogs in the Hobby. I threw out all my files on this Wagner when I quit collecting a few years ago.

However, I do know that M. Wentz and M. O'Keeffe (a reporter who has been in touch with me over the past couple of years) have a ton of info. on this card - including some "Before" pics of the Wagner - before it was cut down a second time! If they want to share what they know, that is up to them. I do know there is going to be a book about the card coming out shortly by Mr. O'Keeffe. He has done the right thing - waiting until he has the facts together first and obtaining as much info. as possible.

Like I stated on my site - the most difficult thing in researching this card is that EVERYONE involved has lied about the card or is lying now!

 
 


(Login asphaltman76)

I've asked this before..and don't think I got an answer..

February 28 2007, 3:30 PM 

Scott-
Do you or anyone else here have any idea how the Wagner was distributed in the short time it was? I know it was only available with Sweet Caporal, but I'm curious about where Sweet Caporal was available? From the amount of SC backs, I would venture a guess it was pretty much like "Winston" and Piedmonts were basically the "Marlboro's" of the time period..so maybe anybody in the country "could" have had a chance at the Wagner...or, could it be it was only distributed to the NEastern US? Or the MidWest?

 
 


(Premier Login leonl)
Forum Owner

so.....

February 28 2007, 3:31 PM 

I also spoke to a hobby veteran (and board member) yesterday about this. To be very succinct it seems the card was cut from a sheet (most agree) and then cut again after that. The top border has never looked too straight to me...and I have seen it, through glass, but in person, many times....best regards (btw, I doubt any of this talk hurts the value)

edited to say ..>Scott- my tongue was very much in cheek when I mentioned kissing you.....agreed, you have the wrong plumbing and I am happily married...

 
 

(Login croftscocoa)

Leon, it is nice to be joking around with you again!

February 28 2007, 3:35 PM 

The PSA 8 Wagner has a Piedmont 150 back. In fact, there are around three Wagners that have Piedmont 150 backs - all three look hand cut at one time or another!

 
 
Aaron
(Login aaroncc)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 3:36 PM 

Found this is some interesting reading on this topic: http://www.thepit.com/Hub/PC_20010325.asp

 
 


(Login asphaltman76)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 3:37 PM 

Wow...Why did I think all the Wagner's were Sweet Caporal? read that somewhere...I wonder if the "3" Piedmont 150's all were cut from sheets later..maybe never actually distributed?

 
 

(Login barrysloate)

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 3:40 PM 

The general theory is the Piedmont Wagners were never put into circulation.

 
 


(Login vintagewhitesox)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 3:43 PM 

"To be very succinct it seems the card was cut from a sheet (most agree) and then cut again after that."

How can you tell that?

 
 


(Premier Login leonl)
Forum Owner

the other Piedmont back

February 28 2007, 3:43 PM 

I held the other single, Piedmont backed, Wagner a few weeks ago. To me it's definitely hand cut and the owner believes so too. It's a great card with some unique provenance.....It reeks of historical significance....

 
 


(Login asphaltman76)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 3:44 PM 

So are the three known cards with a Piedmont back all in great condition?

 
 

(Login croftscocoa)

Barry, I agree.

February 28 2007, 3:45 PM 

I just posted a long-winded thread about my "theory" on the Piedmont Wagners on my board - not typing it again, as I am too lazy. You can all check it out if you wish - it should be at the bottom of the thread Scott posted the link to at the top of this thread (if that makes any sense!).

 
 


(Login vintagewhitesox)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 3:46 PM 

I mean, how can you tell a card is hand cut? what traits do you look for?
If the Wagner was cut from a sheet as some have suggested, why weren't any pictures taken?
From a collector's point of view, I would imagine that would be a pretty cool uncut sheet of cards.

 
 

(Login croftscocoa)

Dave - only the PSA 8 is that nice.

February 28 2007, 3:46 PM 

The other two I have seen are no better than GD and were handcut.

 
 


(Premier Login leonl)
Forum Owner

Josh

February 28 2007, 3:47 PM 

I will not name names but I have spoken with at least a dozen hobby veterans about the history of the PSA8 Wagner...every single one of them says it was cut from a sheet. I am positive they are not all wrong or are all telling a story...So, it's not personally known by me, only told to me, and I believe it...hope this helps.

 
 


(Login asphaltman76)

May be a stupid question.

February 28 2007, 3:49 PM 

But, does it really matter if the Wagner was handcut from a sheet? It would have been cut from a sheet as well in the factory....so does it matter if it happened a year later....20 years later...or 70 years later? It isn't like there has been any "altering"...right?

 
 


(Login vintagewhitesox)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 3:50 PM 

I don't think I'm explaining myself properly, I appologize.

All I want to know, for my own education, is how can a person tell a card is handcut from looking at it? what traits do you look for? How do you know it's handcut as opposed to just a poor cut by the machine, or whatever did the cutting in 1910?

As for the mystery people, everyone's entitled to privacy.

 
 


(Premier Login leonl)
Forum Owner

handcut

February 28 2007, 3:53 PM 

Generally speaking a handcut card will have a waviness to one or more borders.

 
 


(Login Burgher)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 3:56 PM 

The amazing thing is that it resides in a PSA 8 holder and is their advertising centerpiece.

 
 

(Login husbandoftammy)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 4:04 PM 

I guess the history of this card does no matter to potential buyers? You would think if you were going to spend over 500K on a card you might do a LITTLE research on it. Why does a trimmed, ALTERED card cut from a sheet represent the "Holy Grail" in our hobby?????????? Gazillionaires and corporations come in with BIG bucks to buy this card for social status reasons. If they even knew or cared about what they were really buying.
I think we should talk about this once a month so word gets out and other rarer cards will be known and have the recognition they desire... I know us die hard collectors under a 1000 know about them.. But the rest of the world does not....

Checked out the other board from the link given.. I never knew about it. Seem a little hard to navigate thru it and did not have time to set up photo service... Seems like same people and thoughts over there.

JC

 
 

dennis
(Login DCWD)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 4:09 PM 

how can a card like this sneak past the slabbers?

 
 

(Login tedzan)

Wagner....Plank....on Piedmont Sheet....Whoa ?

February 28 2007, 4:12 PM 

This story with Wagner and Plank together on a PIEDMONT 150 sheet does not "jive" from what
is known.

All Plank cards are Sweet Cap 150 or 350. There is only one known Plank with a Piedmont 150
back and it is a "colorless" proof card (depicted in the T206museum Website).

Can we have some more enlightenment on this story....there are too many inconsistencies. ?

TED Z

 
 

(Login pchaos)

Brian Segal Knew

February 28 2007, 4:18 PM 

Jim,

Brian Segal held on to the card for 7 years, I'm sure that if he didn't know it's checkered history before he bought it he surely knew by the time he sold it. Also, I understand that SCP Auctions was a minority partner in the purchase so I assume they also know of the checkered history. If they didn't they shouldn't be in business.

However, in a warped way, controversy actually helps the price of this card. It all started with the controversy of whether Honus Wagner stopped the presses because he didn't like the idea of kids learning how to smoke...others said that Wagner simply wasn't paid for the photo so he wanted it pulled.

At any rate, controversy creates a hobby buzz and that apparently translates into higher prices.

Peter

 
 


(Premier Login leonl)
Forum Owner

T206 PSA 8 Plank

February 28 2007, 4:18 PM 

I was just informed by good friend (definitely a veteran too) that the PSA 8 Plank was auctioned off by Mastro Auctions in 1999 and has a Sweet Cap back....There was another Plank in the Copeland sale that might have been the other high grade one. The PSA 8 Plank was definitely not associated with the PSA 8 Wagner, in that respect. Moderator status has it's privileges....

 
 

(Login barrysloate)

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 4:20 PM 

A card cut in 1910 will have a certain aging to the front, back, and edges of the paper that will be consistent.

A card recently cut will have a front and back that has been subject to the elements for a hundred years, but the exposed paper around the edges will be fresh.

Also, a card cut in 1910 would have been subject to different cutting technology than a card cut recently, so under close examinations the edges will not match a vintage card. These are all minute differences, but in theory a card cut in say 1990 should not be holdered, and should be returned to the submitter with a note "evidence of trim."

 
 


(Login BRIANKW)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 4:22 PM 


Hi Ted,
I think there are 3 Piedmont Planks, including the one missing most of the coloring process. I also doubt that Plank was on the same sheet with Wagner, but nothing is impossible. Be well Brian


 
 

(Login barrysloate)

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 4:22 PM 

Pssst...no apostrophe in "its"...only because you asked

 
 


(Login wonkaticket)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 4:24 PM 

The only Plank I know associated with Copeland that was high grade was the below example which is also Sweet Caporal branded.




 
 

(Login 2dueces)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 4:24 PM 

Looks like the owners of the Holy Grail could care less if it's been trimmed as long as it has PSA's blessing. -Funny with a this talk about cleaning up the hobby and here we have the most important card in the hobby shrouded with rumors of being trimmed and it still fetches over $2M.

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

 
 


(Premier Login leonl)
Forum Owner

Barry

February 28 2007, 4:24 PM 

Darn it....I guess I will never get the apostrophe thing down pat. For the record I was also just informed that there is definitely a 4th Wagner with a Piedmont back too.....I learn something new everyday.

 
 


(Login wonkaticket)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 4:28 PM 

The Plank on the left missing color is in fact one of the Piedmont branded Planks that do exist. It was part of the Halper sale of 1999. Its brother on the right was sold in a Heritage auction this year and was a Sweet Caporal backed card.


 
 

(Login barrysloate)

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 4:32 PM 

Leon- finding out about a 4th Wagner with a Piedmont back "supersedes" missing an apostrophe!

Both of Halper's Planks were color variations, one of course more extreme.

 
 


(Login asphaltman76)

Damn

February 28 2007, 4:33 PM 

All the money being tossed around...I need to go do some yard sale strolling this weekend....find some little old lady with a Plank or Wagner with a red hindu back....ahem.

 
 


(Login BRIANKW)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 4:36 PM 


Hi Dave,
A Brown Hindu would be more believable..... good luck Brian

 
 


(Login asphaltman76)

Brian

February 28 2007, 4:38 PM 

yes...I shouldn't get greedy.

 
 


(Login jcmtiger)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 4:40 PM 

T206 Plank,

Leon, you and your friend are right the PSA Plank with Sweet Caporal back was sold in Mastro auction, April, 1999, sold for $203,992. I just pulled the catalog out and it is there. There also was a T206 Sweet Caporal Wagner sold , not graded, sold for $56,026.

Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

 
 


(Login BRIANKW)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 4:43 PM 

Hi Dave,

Not greedy, just more likely as the Brown Hindu's were printed early in the process. I doubt we will find anymore Wagner's with strange backs, but 1 or 2 more from Piedmont scraps may be out there..... Be well Brian



 
 


(Premier Login leonl)
Forum Owner

WELL

February 28 2007, 4:46 PM 

My "friend" really does know more than most anyone in the hobby, imho. I have been very, very luckey to be associated with some of the greatest guys in the hobby. I thank Scott B. and Doug Allen for that. Scott has really taken me under his wing as I was an infant in the hobby 10 years ago...and Doug has been extemely nice to me in being very gracious and included me in things where I got to meet some hobby icons. (even though he did put me on hold one night for about 10 minutes when Bill called , not that I blame him ....) best regards

 
 

(Login JudgeDred2)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 4:49 PM 

We haven't had this thread (trimmed PSA8 Wagner T206) in a while. It's like Alice's restaraunt on Thanksgiving. Only Thanksgiving comes to the N54 VBC more often.

I kinda like this thread. I know some people are tired of reading about it but it's like if we don't talk about it then the truth will never be heard. Oh, wait a minute, the truth to some is that the PSA8 Wagner is an untouched card and that it has never been altered.

After posting this I'll go back and read the content of the thread. I figured this is going to be another fun PSA8 T206 Wagner thread... am I going to be disappointed?

 
 


(Login asphaltman76)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 4:51 PM 

If we are going to get any more stories started...I'd like to get one going.

T206 Peter Cassidy...extremely rare...

whew..now I can just sit back and wait to sell my VG 3.

 
 


(Login wonkaticket)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 5:05 PM 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVxN5iQ_Ri0&mode=related&search=

To think I could have had one for $99, darn!!

 
 


(Login only_child)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 5:19 PM 

"All I want to know, for my own education, is how can a person tell a card is handcut from looking at it? what traits do you look for? How do you know it's handcut as opposed to just a poor cut by the machine, or whatever did the cutting in 1910?"

A quote:

"If the edge or corner of a card has been trimmed without other enhancements, regardless of the level of sophistication, it will always display the look of a trimmed card in one way or another. In essence, a trimmed card will look trimmed. Knowing specifics about edges are the key."

 
 

(Login Admin_t206museum)

Plank with Piedmont Back

February 28 2007, 6:25 PM 


REA sold a Plank with Piedmont back in their June 1997 auction. Interesting enough, it was trimmed.

 
 
Aaron
(Login aaroncc)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 6:32 PM 

Was piedmont Plank card graded as trimmed?

 
 

(Login husbandoftammy)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 6:38 PM 

Peter, Here is scenario that might have happend (IMO). Let's say Brian Segal won the card and then realized what the history was on it. Both PSA and the auction company would not want a sale of the "Holy Grail" to be tainted. SO maybe the card went on "Tour" with PSA over the years. Maybe PSA bought it back or guaranteed Brian to get all his money back when he sold it after a certain time frame. This way everyone is happy and everyone will do their best to keep the hype going on the altered trimmed PSA 8 Wagner card (IMO). I have seen the card in person. I'm sure if it was cracked out, and an expert looked at the sides of the card, it would be clear that it was cut down to size within the last 40 years.

I had an expert (no names) once tell me if you got a card from me and you could not tell anything was wrong with it, would you be happy? I guess my answer would be yes.

But if later someone told me I was wrong in my judgement of the card, I would feel 3 times as bad.

 
 


(Login wonkaticket)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 6:56 PM 

Well I didn’t want to blow the lid off this thing yet but I have been doing extensive research on the card in question. What I have found may surprise you; I can let you in on a few of my findings, which are all available in my new book. Please send $24.95 for the full story.



The history of the card goes back quite a bit and has been the focus of a cover up much larger than you can imagine. My first findings were that baseball and its founder as we know it have all been a cover up. Wagner the true founder of the game pre dates our known first origins of the game by thousands of years. Throughout time they have tossed names like Wright, Doubleday etc. to keep us off track.

Take for example the painting below before and after cleaning the painting, notice the last figure at the end of the table hmm…


Before


After

The keepers of this baseball secret and the card, which holds the key, are long; the very list raises more questions than it answers. All I know is that a very powerful group of people have been charged with keeping the secrets of the game and this very card shrouded in secrecy for a very long time. They formed the Priory of Secret Ambiguous or (PSA).

Its members have included such historical individuals the likes of Thomas Edison, George Washington, Gerald Ford, Da Vinci, Louis Pasture, Napoleon, Chuck Woolery & Alf to name a few.

Another example of my findings is from Da Vinci himself take for example one of the worlds most priceless masterpieces a simple painting on its own, yet when reversed clearly another face emerges.




Also the T206 of Wagner himself when examined closely under a black light on a recent break in at the owners house I discovered this!




How could PSA miss such a thing I wondered to myself! While in the owners home I found multiple Masonic symbols, of course Freemasons they cut stone so paper should be a breeze!

Consider this WAGNERR misspelled and TEMPLAR & MASONIC all have seven (7) letters. The number (7) Mickey Mantle’s number also a baseball player, and when describing Mantle’s last name in the possessive tense also equals (7) letters! I don’t know about you but that gave me a chill…..

These photos were given to me by an anonymous source, we met in a dark ally. The only thing I know of this mystery source is that he offered me a small stack of $100 dollar bills for my collection and yelled at me when I turned him down. The stationary had the initials AR??



Notice the founder of the group Opus Dei nothing hit at me at first, then upon closer inspection I recognized 2 faces in the crowd. Coincidence I think not…



So I beg of you gentleman don’t dig to deep, you may not like what you uncover, I feel I’ve said to much and I fear for my safety and must end this discussion.

Take care and be safe…

 
 

(Login barrysloate)

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 7:06 PM 

The "Hona" Lisa is a riot!

 
 

(Login gscheyd)

wow

February 28 2007, 7:06 PM 

Bravo!

 
 


(Login boxingcardman)

Why is this such a surprise to so many people?

February 28 2007, 7:10 PM 

We all know that grading companies mess up and grade trimmed cards from time to time. We all know they mess up and grade cards cut from sheets from time to time. We all know that they occasionally grade outright fakes. We fight over these issues all the time. PSA, SGC, GAI, etc., make these mistakes after years of experience and presumably knowledge gained from ferreting out trimmed cards. So why is it so hard to believe that at the start of the grading era, the people at PSA were fooled by an expertly trimmed T206 Wagner brought to them by seemingly credible submitters at a time when they were looking to make a splash? So what it if it is an important and valuable card? They all make errors. PSA slabbed a fake Ruth rookie...And just to be fair and avoid straw man whining that I'm pickin on poor ol' PSA again, SGC slabbed an altered Doyle.

Moving away from the "is it trimmed-isn't it trimmed" question to the broader question, why is it so hard to believe that everyone with a direct stake in this card (PSA, the card's owners, the auctioneers, the cutter-downers, etc.) prefers to hype the card and do what it takes to establish a record price every time out of the box, that everyone who supposedly has the real story is reluctant to back it up with the alleged photos, and that there are many people who will ardently defend the "honor" of the PSA 8 Wagner even though they have not a shred of first-hand knowledge of the facts? There is much more at stake than just this card. To even acknowledge that there is a valid question about the PSA 8 Wagner could result in the collapse of the house of graded cards, taking lots of businesses and investments down the toilet with it. Lots of people have stakes, large and small, direct and indirect, in the continued good name of PSA, the PSA 8 Wagner and the graded card business in general. I am not suggesting the existence of a grand conspiracy of silence among the grading services and their customers to suppress the truth, but I am suggesting that people's views of the PSA 8 Wagner are colored by the baggage that they bring to the table, and that baggage includes their stakes in the continued good health of the graded card market.


 
 

(Login barrysloate)

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 7:19 PM 

But we're only talking about one card, not the fate of the Western World.

 
 


(Login boxingcardman)

Barry

February 28 2007, 7:22 PM 

wanna bet?

 
 
David Smith
(Login ctownboy)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 7:32 PM 

It would be nice if all the Piedmont backed Wagners were brought together and compared. Then, compare those to some Sweet Caporal Wagners and see if there are any differences.


David

PS. If there becomes enough buzz about this card, there might be a TV special about it, something like Al Capone's vault. There would be the history about the card, the myths, the owners and the amount of money involved. Then there would be the cracking out ceremony and the comparisons. Finally, there would be the regrading, both by PSA and SGC.

 
 

(Login barrysloate)

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 7:36 PM 

I think the best thing that could come out of all of this is that all the grading services, especially the sloppier ones, were forced to work a little harder to minimze their mistakes. Nobody can be 100% but everyone has the ability to get a little better.

 
 

(Login JudgeDred2)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 7:55 PM 

Adam,

I was hearing the "battle hymn of the republic" in my mind while I read that post... Well done!!!

 
 

(Login tedzan)

BARRY S

February 28 2007, 8:15 PM 

....and the worst case scenario....could be that the "House of Plastic Cards" comes tumbling down.

 
 

(Login barrysloate)

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 8:17 PM 

Ted- I'm going to guess there's a part of you that is rooting for that!

 
 

(Login tedzan)

BARRY S

February 28 2007, 9:12 PM 

After 24 years of friendship, I thought you were pretty good at reading my mind......BUT,
this time you missed.....I have some nice vintage cards in plastic....just a fraction of my
collection; nevertheless, a lot of value in them.

No, I don't want the plastics industry to tumble, it'd ripple on down and affect the naked
card values, also.

TED Z

 
 


(Login chiprop)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 9:16 PM 

I don't think it will affect card values or perception amongst true collectors. Just a perception among non-collectors, which sucks, but really will have very little affect on prices cause they aint buying 'em anyway.

 
 

(Login barrysloate)

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 9:17 PM 

And in the end, nor do I. And I suspect it will be business as usual, and the next guy who buys the PSA 8 Wagner will probably be good for 3 million.

 
 

(Login croftscocoa)

Guys, you are missing the point here about PSA grading the card............

February 28 2007, 9:31 PM 

PSA did NOT make a mistake on slabbing the card. PSA initially REJECTED the card. Then, after a phone call from a major player in this and the Hobby, PSA slabbed the card an 8! We all know the guy. In fact, I have spoken with several people in the Hobby whom he has told to submit their cards to his auctions and he would have PSA grade them a couple grades higher! I am sure Mike O. will have all of this in his book that comes out in May.

 
 

(Login FYS)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 9:45 PM 

I am absolutely amazed at some of the trivial items this board gets excited about and conversly does not get excited about.

Some recent relatively trivial items that have enraged many people:

1. Banner ads = Leon selling his soul.
2. Bobby Binder calling out a "former" customer.
3. Doug Allen being truthfull about wrinkle removal.
4. Pete Calderon being candid about whiny customers and PR-GD conditioned cards.
5. Jim Crandell's work to start a collectors group.
6. Eating dinner.

Some of the same people that are outraged by any of items 1-6 above, do not feel the trimmed Wagner is a big deal. I just can not understand someone being outraged at Leon for banner ads or outraged at Doug Allen for being hones, but then say the Wagner situation is fine.

 
 

(Login FYS)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 9:49 PM 

"PSA did NOT make a mistake on slabbing the card. PSA initially REJECTED the card. Then, after a phone call from a major player in this and the Hobby, PSA slabbed the card an 8! We all know the guy. In fact, I have spoken with several people in the Hobby whom he has told to submit their cards to his auctions and he would have PSA grade them a couple grades higher! I am sure Mike O. will have all of this in his book that comes out in May."

Scott,

Was this special relationship with PSA only with the last regime (Steve, Mike, Dan) or has it continued with the current regime?

 
 

(Login docpatlv)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 10:10 PM 

What if, in the near future, as Scott Elkins has stated, that a book comes out about this card with concrete evidence about what most speculate?

Say PSA rescinds (doubtful) the grade and labels AUTH, what would this card be worth then 250,000...500,000...or more? What do you guys/gals think?

Mike

 
 


(Login vintagewhitesox)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 10:25 PM 

"PSA did NOT make a mistake on slabbing the card. PSA initially REJECTED the card. Then, after a phone call from a major player in this and the Hobby, PSA slabbed the card an 8! We all know the guy. In fact, I have spoken with several people in the Hobby whom he has told to submit their cards to his auctions and he would have PSA grade them a couple grades higher! I am sure Mike O. will have all of this in his book that comes out in May."

Objection. Hearsay.

Sustained.

Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

 
 

(Login Davalillo)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 11:01 PM 

Mike,

It truly is amazing--seems like many could care less about the Wagner or care less that their own cards are trimmed trimmed. And you were ready to send $100 immediately as I recall to the collectors group. We will let the hubbub die down and start again with the right people.
It was my mistake making it open and my mistake letting Mastronet in and probably my mistake not controlling the agenda.

Jim

 
 

Joann
(Login jmk59)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

February 28 2007, 11:39 PM 

"It was my mistake making it open and my mistake letting Mastronet in and probably my mistake not controlling the agenda."

In fact, it was my mistake to not do it completely on my own and impose my views on the entire collecting world! Yes. Yes. That's where I went wrong!

Whatever Trevor.

Joann

Oh - and I said I wouldn't make anymore backbone comments and I won't. You (Jim) clarified that and I note that you have not used the term since. However, that doesn't mean I won't comment on all the rest of the bs.

 
 
Matt
(Login Matty-A)

Well this will be an interesting read

March 1 2007, 12:03 AM 


 
 


(Login hobby_stump)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 12:22 AM 

The cover graphic is interesting but I think Michael O'Keeffe could have chosen better "vintage" cards than a 1960 Fleer Lou Gehrig and a 1961 Fleer Honus Wagner, both of which appear in the background. Perhaps a variety of other T206 Hall of Famers would have made better wallpaper behind the T206 Wagner.

I wonder if the book will make its predicted 12 June 2007 release date.

 
 


(Login hobby_stump)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 12:29 AM 

It also appears that O'Keeffe's book has taken on a title change. Here's what an "insider" literature blog had to say about an earlier draft of the book:

http://www.guttertype.com/2005_08_01_archive.html


 
 


(Login slidekellyslide)
Network 54 Moderator

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 12:42 AM 

Remember folks that this is the same Michael O'Keefe who lied about what was said on this messageboard in one of his columns. I take anything he says (writes) with a grain of salt. He also seems to have a fixation on Bill Mastro.

I eagerly await his usual nasty email to my inbox anytime in the next 24 hours.


 
 

(Login JudgeDred2)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 1:10 AM 

It will be interesting to see a HUGE expose on this issue come to life. All it will take is a good reporter with a nose for the truth and we'll so how it all pans out. Do I think it would ruin the hobby if the PSA8 Wagner was truly exposed for what it is? NO. It would certainly make PSA look bad and it would put a few black eyes out there but at least we'd get to the bottom of it and we'd have one less thread to repeat. On second thought, I hope they don't expose the fraud for what it is, there'd be less to talk about here...

 
 

Dylan
(Login EcardCollector)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 2:43 AM 

Remember folks, psa looked at having the chance of grading the Wagner as huge publicity when psa opened up their doors. Is it that hard to imagine them grading the card regardless of alteration so they could get all the good press that comes from having the "worlds most valuable" baseball card in a PSA holder? This was huge in the news, they probably made a lot of money of the exposure. If it was all based on a fraud then they deserve to fall just as hard.

 
 
William Heitman
(Login WHeitman)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 3:31 AM 

Back in the '50's, and even earlier than that, there was a group of hobby veterans who, in their spare time, liked to redo older sets of cards. They would make changes--like completely renumbering the 1933 Goudey set, or changing backs. They felt that these changes would make it obvious that these were reprints. Boy, were they wrong. Trouble is that they (many were affiliated to card producers, i.e. Topps, Bowman, Gum, Inc., etc) had access to vintage presses, inks and paper, and the ones they did turned out really good. I saw many of these when I was young and listened to my father laugh at just how good they were and just how stupid anyone would be to believe them to be real. "Strip" cards are not called that because they were printed on strips(which they very obviously were), but because they were originally sold to the public the very same way they were printed. Printing cards on sheets with multiple rows of cards was an advent of the '30's, the very same time that hobby veterans started to talk to each other and out of which grew this unusual idea of redoing old sets of cards. I've seen some of these cards surface over the years and cause a real stir in the hobby. A lot of it is wishful thinking. Unfortunately, a lot of the stir is the product of just plain lack of knowledge. The preferred method of storing cards that were collected until plastic sheets came along was in neat little rows in cardboard boxes(Velveta boxes were especially good). With that method of storage, after just a few years a fake looks just about as aged as a card that is ninety years old that was stored that same way. Reprints have been around for years and years. They weren't originally done to fool anyone, but, unfortunately, they do.

 
 

(Login KLSDAD)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 6:59 AM 

Not having paid much attention to graded cards I have some basic questions that I didn't see the answer to above:

Is it not possible for a card to be cut from a sheet by a collector and receive a high grade if done well and to match the normal size?

Is the issue that any card that has been cut after it left the factory is understood to require a lower grade or a qualifier?

Or is it that this cut wasn't done well enough or that PSA and others have lied about it?

 
 
JimCrandell
(Login Davalillo)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 7:36 AM 

Joann,

You might think its bs but there is a substantial amount of card restoration/alteration going on on raw, low grade, mid grade and high grade cards. So no matter what you collect it affects you. You can close your eyes like you seem to be doing or attempt to be part of the solution. Its time consuming and perhaps costly to be part of the solution however.

 
 


(Login jmk59)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 9:19 AM 

Good Morning Jim,

I wasn't calling the issue of alterations bs - that clearly is an important hobby topic.

I took issue with you wanting to reconvene with the "right people", and saying it was a mistake to leave it open to all collectors, with an agenda that allowed open discussion. I may be going out on a limb here, but I suspect that "right people" really means "people that agree with me and my point of view".

Probably a good idea to start again with the right people. No more of that pesky openness that just invites other points of view anyways.

Joann

 
 

(Login Davalillo)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 9:23 AM 

Joann,

I think it has to begin with people that think card alteration/restoration is a problem and that something needs to be done. Beyond that I am open to ideas.

Jim

 
 


(Login chiprop)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 9:28 AM 

Why does every thread that I find interesting and would like to continue (or at least stay on track) end with Jim fighting with a board member? Please, contain your BS on one thread. No one cares if it goes 1,000 deep, but stop f'ing up every thread! Dan Kravitz

edited the f'ing word only...all of the letters were left in it...

 
 

(Login Davalillo)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 9:37 AM 

Dan,

I couldn't agree more.

 
 

(Login 2dueces)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 9:39 AM 

If I am reading Bill's post correctly, then there maybe an authenticity issue surrounding Wagners with certain backs. Is this a reason we have only 3 with this back? Very interesting. If a select few collectors had access to vintage presses and inks and the knowledge, then only they know what they produced. Wouldn't fool anyone back then, but as the years went on and these collectors faded into the back ground who knows what has surfaced as authentic. Very interesting read Bill. Thank you.

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

 
 
Mark Evans
(Login mark_evans)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 10:28 AM 

I can't wait to read the new book. I hope it addresses not only the allegation that the card was hand-cut from a sheet, but also Bill Heitman's point that such sheets were not printed until the 1930s. This fact seems to me to even further diminish the card's value.

The most intriguing aspect of this discussion to me is the timing of the most recent sale. Assuming the buyer is aware of the book and that it undoubtedly questions the provenance of the card, he/she must have determined that the controversy can only enhance its value.

By the way, this thread strikes me as an example of this forum at its best. Mark


 
 


(Premier Login leonl)
Forum Owner

Joe

March 1 2007, 10:54 AM 

I don't think there is anyway all of the (4) known Piedmont backed Wagners are rebacked or not real. The one that I saw recently was the one that had the Charles Bray letter with it, auctioned by Mastro. It's been around for almost 60 years, as a known card, so I don't think it's got a problem....regards

 
 

(Login barrysloate)

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 11:15 AM 

I think that when the order came down to cease distribution of the T206 Wagner, the Sweet Caporals had already been distributed, while the Piedmonts had yet to leave the factory. All the Piedmont Wagners were thereby destroyed, except a handful that found their way out the back door.

 
 

(Login wolfdogg)

My two and half cents................

March 1 2007, 11:16 AM 

I viewed "THE" card in 1992 at the National Convention in Atlanta. This is the first time I've viewed these articles, but have heard of them. When I saw the card in '92 I only knew that it was the "PSA8 WAGNER!!!!". My first thoughts when I got up close to the card (if you didn't see it that weekend it was in a big stand up glass case on a pedastal on an 8-foot table all by itself and you could get like 3 inches from the card) was "It looks like it's been trimmed." Really that was my thoughts. I turned to my friend (R.I.P........1974-1997), who was not that big of a collector, but had seen my T206s and the other several 1000 that we had looked at the show, and asked him to look at it close. He agreed...............trimmed. Then, the news hit.........is it trimmed??????..............hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I'd rather have on in lower grade than this one, because its trimmed!...........

 
 
Aaron
(Login aaroncc)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 11:45 AM 

Anybody have a scan front and back of the Wagner strip from the Halper collection?

 
 

Dave Hornish
(Login dsh46)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 4:57 PM 

Interesting that Bob Sevchuk was involved. I grew up in Hicksville and went to grade school across the street from his store (actually, that was earlier since I'm so damn old) and when I reconnected with hobby I started going to his shop (co-owned with Marty Perry at the time) and he always had some amazing one-of-a-kind pieces. Bob was involved in a number of contoversial deals over the years (remember the Hall of Fame scandal with their World Series programs being sold?) but he certainly knew how to get nice stuff that no one else had. I still have a number of cards I purchased from Bob over the years; his shop was great!

 
 
Scott B.
(Login bond73)

Found this article

March 1 2007, 5:07 PM 

Found this interesting article on T206 Museum regarding trimmed Wagner

http://www.t206museum.com/page/discussion_2.html

 
 
davidcycleback
(Login drc1)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 5:30 PM 

A visiting out of state science professor (sports fan but non-collector) mentioned to me he read in the news
the card sold for $2.35 million. Making conversation, I smilingly told him some people think the card is trimmed.
He had no idea what trimmed meant, how and why it was done. He didn't know if trimming was considered
good or bad. I explained why someone would trim a card: that prices are dependent on condition and trimming
can artificially raise the condition. "Interesting," he said.

 
 

(Login pchaos)

Hand-Cut

March 1 2007, 5:39 PM 

David,

So what's the difference between the Wagner being hand-cut from the sheet and trimming.

Peter

 
 
davidcycleback
(Login drc1)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 5:50 PM 

All that really matters in the hobby is disclosure. Though I don't know why (beyond potential $$)
someone would cut down an uncut T206 sheet into singles, unless major portions of the sheet had major
cardboard rot or rat savaging.

A number of years ago a stash of complete uncut 1957 Topps sheets were found, including Mays, Mantle, Koufax
and all the stars. Many to most of the sheets were cut down into smaller panels of varying size. This
was in part due to marketability, I'm sure, but also for practical/aesthetic reasons. Due to storage
condition some portions of the sheets were sharp and clean, while others were torn, stained and literally
filled with bullet sized holes. The owners felt it best to cut down the sheets to more attractive panels,
and sold them as cut from sheets. They often told the history of the sheets when selling. If you ever see a
1957 Topps panel of 6, 9 or whatever cards, they likely were trimmed from these sheets ... Even if the history
is not said for a 9 card 1957 Topps panel, there's no deception, as a panel had to have been cut down at one time
or other from a larger sheet-- and obviously a panel isn't being marketed as a factory cut single card ready
for entombment by your favorite singles grader. A 9 card panel won't fit into a SGC or PSA singles holder even
if you fold it twice and push real hard.

Duly note, that I haven't offered my personal opinion on whether or not the card is trimmed, and it
shouldn't be interpreted that I have.

 
 

(Login pchaos)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 6:11 PM 

David,

Now your sounding like the expert witness that you are. Actually, I can almost picture it...ten years from now there's another buyer for the Holy Grail. The Buyer says he was cheated because the Wagner was trimmed and the trial to determine the fate of our hobby starts...your called to the stand for your opinion.

That would be a pretty hot seat to be sitting in.

Peter

 
 

(Login croftscocoa)

Going back to Mr. Heitman's post........

March 1 2007, 6:16 PM 

I have ALWAYS felt that these Piedmont Wagners are from the 50's. I have always felt that they were printed with Piedmont backs b/c real Wagners were ONLY known with SC 150 backs from Fact. 25. I truly believe that were these Piedmont Wagners from the "era", there would be MORE than Sweet Caporal available - b/c Piedmont is even more common than Sweet Caporal.

I have seen some of these 1950 Piedmont Wagners, where the people admit what they have - they look VERY REAL! I almost bought one early on, then realized REAL WAGNERS SHOULD ONLY BE FOUND WITH A SWEET CAPORAL 150 FACT. 25 BACK!

Like Leon stated - the one that was sold in Mastro ONLY has a provenance dating back to the 1950's!!!! I seriously doubt a Piedmont Wagner will ever be found dating back to 1909 like it SHOULD!

I believe the sheet found in FL to be one of these 1950's reprints. Afterall, the Plank had a SC 150 back, the Wagner had a Piedmont 150 back and from every source I have heard this story, the cards were on a SHEET - NOT A STRIP (again, please refer back to Mr. Heitman's post above regarding cards not printed on sheets until the 1930's).

I have been chastized a lot believing the Wagner PSA 8 dates back NO MORE than the 1950's. However, I would tell anyone in the market for a REAL WAGNER to buy one with a Sweet Caporal 150 back from Fact. 25!!!!!

 
 

(Login barrysloate)

Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 6:47 PM 

There's an awful lot of information circulating about just what this PSA 8 Wagner is all about. So much, in fact, that it is impossible that one card could be all these things at the same time.

It would be nice if we were able to separate fact from fiction. At this point I don't know what the real story is.

 
 

(Login pchaos)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 6:49 PM 

Scott,

That's scandalous, the Holy Grail is a reprint...the mystery is getting deeper.

Peter

 
 

(Login Novocent)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 6:52 PM 

David-that's interesting. I have two of those 1957 panels, three cards each. I always wondered where they came from and thought maybe they were some sort of promotional magazine insert or something. Nice to know how they got that way.

They're very nice and very well-preserved.

-Al

 
 
davidcycleback
(Login drc1)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 7:05 PM 

Al, if your panels are in high grade, that's a good deal. The panels vary widely in grade, with some
having water stains and a bullet hole or two.

There are also 1950s Topps and Bowman salesman samples, which are small panels of uncut finished cards. Salesmen
used these to promote the product to stores. The key is that the salesmen samples have company advertising
pasted across the back (they physically glued a paper add across the backs of the panel). The 1957 Topps
cards cut from the earlier mentions sheets have no such ads, just showing the normal card backs.

 
 


(Login BRIANKW)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 7:21 PM 


Old Judges were printed on Sheets and so were T206's period. I can't speak to the 30's or 50's printing, but I can say that of 4-6 cards have been re-assembled to establish part of a T206 sheet, so strips are out of the question. Personally, I think Barry is correct, that the Piedmont Wagners were printers scrap that went out the back door, but we will probably never know. Be well Brian


PS If someone could reprint Wagners and Plank's in the 50's; I think they would have created more than 2-3......


 
 

(Login 2dueces)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 7:59 PM 

Brian, Ok so the Wagners were printed on a sheet. How come only 1 Wagner was on that sheet and not a whole vertical row like all other T206's. If this Wagner was cut from a sheet and it was the only one, then it's a reprint from the 50's. No other explaination is possible, unless of course they decided to print this one sheet different from evey other T206 sheet ever made. Agreed?

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

 
 

(Login pchaos)

PSA

March 1 2007, 8:10 PM 

Joe,

If the Wagner is a reprint, then PSA missed it when they were grading and we know that's not possible.

Peter

 
 

(Login WHeitman)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 8:15 PM 

There is an interesting part of the PSA 8 Wagner discussion that usually is ignored. Bruce McNall made his "fortune" in coins. The creator of PSA was also the man who owned PCGS, the coin grading company. The guy who actually graded the Wagner also had a background in coins and was really a relative newcomer to cards. He was at my home shortly before he graded the Wagner, and after, and we debated grading that card. Despite very serious misgivings at that time, he stated to me "We HAVE to grade that card." I understood exactly what he meant.

 
 


(Login sabrjay)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 8:38 PM 

Mike, you are obviously new and have no clue as to why this board was founded and its history. If you did, you would know why I and others were upset with the introduction of banner ads. As for other "trivial" items on your list, I hope you are being sarcastic, because most of those issues are far from trivial.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

 
 

(Login 2dueces)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 8:49 PM 

Kinda like finding out there's no Santa Claus. Today, I cherish my mid to low grade T206's more than ever.

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

 
 


(Login PGACPA)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 1 2007, 9:09 PM 

Ebay actually killed my auction for this rare gem a couple of years ago...


 
 


(Login BRIANKW)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 2 2007, 8:04 AM 

Hi Joe,
If the Wagner in question were on a small horizontal strip of 5-6 cards than there would only be one to cut out. While I have heard all of the stories and did see a picture of the Oversized Wagner at one point, I have never seen a picture of "the sheet" it came from.

Be well Brian

 
 
Cobby33
(Login Cobby33)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 2 2007, 1:25 PM 

Maybe Monty Python should do a Holy Grail II, regarding the follies of this (these) cards. Maybe we should cast Board members are the players in this new movie??? I'll withhold my thoughts...

Also- it should come as no surprise that the grading companies give "big customers" preferential treatment (which was the subject of another thread). Although I don't think it necessarily bastardizes the whole industry, it does have the potential to lower their credibility.

 
 
davidcycleback
(Login drc1)

Re: Very interesting history on the Wagner psa 8/trim

March 2 2007, 2:00 PM 

Interesting uncut sheet trivia of the day:

The 1984 Topps/Nestle Set (limited parallel to the regular Topps set, but with a special Nestle symbol) was
issued to the public in large uncut sheets, not as single cards. Some dealers cut down many of the sheets
into sets of single cards. As the complete sheets are relatively common and most collectors prefer
single cards to a large sheet, this is the rare case where the complete set is worth more in singles form
than in uncut sheet form ... And if you purchase a single card, it's not factory cut as the factory never
cut them ... I'm sure Don Mattingly collectors are familiar with the set, as it includes a rookie Mattingly
much rarer than the regular Topps card.

 
 
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