Here's my take on these two rare T206 variations. First, I will start with their brief BB careers.

.............Demmitt....................................O'Hara
Major Lges.
1909.....NY Amer....123 games............NY NL......115 games
1910.....St L AL.......10 games............St L NL........9 games
Eastern Lge.
1910.....Montreal....130 games...........Toronto....122 games
1911.....Montreal....153 games...........Toronto....147 games
Major Lge.
1914-15 Chi AL.......155 games

Both players are featured 1st in the 350-only series (as NY players) with limited backs than most other
Subjects in this series. Demmitt can be found with P350, SC 350/30, Carolina Brt, EPDG, and Tolstoi.
O'Hara can be found with P350, SC 350/30, Sov 350, and Cycle 350. Note....no Polar Bear backs.

Then by mid 1910 when the ATC started designing the T206's for the POLAR BEAR chewing tobacco Co.,
both these guys had been traded to their respective St. Louis teams....of which they played only a very
few games and were sent down to the Minors. Therefore, the T206 designers saw no need to continue to
print them with any other T-brand as Major Lgers.

The Polar Bear exclusivity of these 2 scarce variations is simply just a matter of timing (and, not a mystery).
My guess is that there are probably some where between 300 - 400 of these two variations in circulation.

Subsequently, both Demmitt and O'Hara are printed in the 1912 Canadian Imperial Tob. Co. (C46) set.
O'Hara continues playing for Toronto (his hometown) till the end of the 1915 season.

Demmitt re-appears in the 1914 T-213 (Coupon Tob.) set. The T213 fronts must have been printed by
American Lithograph, as most of the fronts are the exact ones in the T206 set. Demmitt has 2 cards in
the T213 set. The one I've seen, depicts him in the St Louis uniform, but his team is Chicago American.
I've never seen the other Demmitt, which I have heard depicts him with a NY uniform.....this, I find very
strange.
Does anyone here have a scan of the T213 - NY version ?

Well, that's my theory on these two elusive T206 variations....anyone care to venture another story ?








TED Z collection

Hey Ted,

Obviously, this all follows your thinking that T206s were first issued by Piedmont, being the 150 series cards... then Sweet Caporal? With Sovereign 3rd???

And it makes sense that by the time Polar Bears are being laid out, American Lithograph is adding Demmitt and O'Hara. Then they aren't added to whatever was next because D and H were sent down.

Here's my T213 of Demmitt, with St. Louis on the shirt and Chicago American on the caption.

Frank.

I cannot locate a picture of Demmitt NY in Type 2 Coupons anywhere. As I remarked in the other thread, it is strange both versions are issued with the Type 2's. I think some T206 mysteries can be investigated in conjunction with other T card issues that used the same fronts.

Ted,what are your thoughts on Bill Abstein since he was picked up by the St Louis Browns right around the same time as as Demmitt and left shortly after but he only appears with Pittsburgh in the set? Just when exactly were the Polar Bears produced if they have a guy who was with the team from Dec 1909-late April 1910 but not a guy who was with the same team from Jan 1910 till June of the same year

The timing of Abstein still being shown with Pittsburgh despite the fact he was gone Jan 6,1910 shows 350 series cards were printed before then,but Abstein appears in the Broadleaf series too so they couldve been printed before Polar Bears too which means they couldve very well started printing them sometime after Dec 16th when Demmitt was traded but before Jan 6th when Abstein was. You could almost narrow down the printing set up of Polar Bear cards to a small 20 day window if thats true

1st....regarding Abstein, his T206 card in the 350-only Series; and, it is my understanding that this series
was on the "drawingboard" prior to Abstein being traded to St. Louis.

Scot Reader targets the issue date of the 350-only cards to have started in the Spring of 1910. Scot also
suggests, that the T206 guys tried to capitalize on the success of Pittsburgh in 1909 by printing many of
the Pirates players in this series.

2nd....While Abstein's cards are quite available (mostly found with Piedmont 350 backs), his card does not
exist with Sovereign, EPDG, or Polar Bear backs. However, as you noted, he can be found with some of the
tougher backs like Broad Leaf, Carolina Brights, and Cycle 350....but, of course, not too often.

It's my opinion that the Sovereign's were always printed later than the Piedmont's and the Sweet Cap's in
the 150 and 350 Series.....and, early in the 460 Series.

The Polar Bear's were issued in the later part of 1910. You might be correct....that Polar Bear's received just
one production run. But, they must of printed a lot of them, as most of the Cobb's (Red and Bat-off versions)
that I have seen....have Polar Bear backs.

Actually, I've been studying this paradoxical "back phenomena"; but, I have to do quite a bit more research.

T-Rex TED

Are both the Demmitt and O'Hara cards in the M116 set listed as St. Louis? If so, that seems odd since they played with STL for such a short period. Or was it simply a case of perfect timing of the M116 issues?

In M116 Demmitt is listed with St. Louis but O'Hara is listed with Toronto. O'Hara is in Series 17, Demmitt in 22, which means, I think, that O'Hara's card would have been issued slightly earlier. I'm not sure what this means for the timing of the issues relative to T206.

Tim

Anyone have a theory on why the Demmitt variation is more expensive than O'Hara and is offered less?

Bob,

I’ve been watching this for quite sometime about 7 yrs worth of auction watching and listings of both Demmitt & O’Hara. Actually the numbers are pretty close for both being offered, in some ways I have found O’Hara offered less.

But if you watch it comes in waves, a few of one then a few of the other. What I have found is the offering of the grades/quality of the cards. Most are heavily stained as you know, and very few if any are offered above VG at best. VG-EX to EX examples come up only once every few years, many times it has been the same cards. I think Demmitt pulls a bit of premium do to the fact that of the 2 he is the only card, which reflects the team change on his jersey in the card.

Those are just my opinion; I also have most of the images of the cards that have been offered if you’re interested.


Not to mention there is a very nice looking O’Hara up on ebay right now for about the same price as the O’Hara, which just sold via Huggins & Scott. However it is a much nicer card. FYI.

My theory regarding Abstein and three other 350-only Pirates (Maddox, Miller, Phillippe, but excluding Wilson) is that they were double-printed or possibly 1.5X printed with the Piedmont 350 back due to the Bucs' victory in the 1909 WS. This is a case where the PSA population report tells a pretty good story. Maddox (171), Miller (167) and Phillippe (178) are the highest population commons in the report--with Abstein not too far behind at 149.

As far as 350-only artwork creation and launch, my view is Summer/Fall 1909 creation and Winter/Spring 1910 general release without Dahlen (Brooklyn), Elberfeld (Washington), Demmitt (St. Louis) and O'Hara (St. Louis). The artwork for those subjects was created later than Summer/Fall 1909 and probably released later than Winter/Spring 1910. Of course, "release" does not necessarily mean launch at the same time with all of the brands.

Edited to Add: Marc Bourgea, who no longer collects T206, conceived the theory about the 1909 Bucs. I just ran with it.

Speaking of T213, Ames is shown with both Cincy and NY team designations. (Ames was traded by the New York Giants with Josh Devore, Heinie Groh, and $20,000 to the Cincinnati Reds for Art Fromme and Eddie Grant) Since he spent most of the year of 1913 with Cincinatti is his NY card rarer?

It's a good question, and I don't know why. My experience in selling a Demmitt and O'Hara
(both "naked" and Vg) several years ago.....was, that I got a more $$$$ for Demmitt.
In the past year, I sold both (each graded 2) and Demmitt sold for slightly more than O'Hara.

What I find inconsistent here, is that I've seen more Demmitt's offered than O'Hara cards.

So, let's see what the "professional" price guides say about these two T206's.....

In the Ex column the 2007 PSA SMR lists Demmitt for 6,500 and O'Hara = 6000.

In the SCD 2006 Standard Catalog, an Ex Demmitt = 7500....an Ex O'Hara = 9500.
However, in low grade they are equally priced at 2000.

So, you figure it....I can't.

TED Z

Is it possible that the POLAR BEAR production was just a "one-shot" press run......and, issued (as
you have noted in your research) late in 1910 ?

Whereas, Piedmont and Sweet Caporal (Fac. 30), the most prolific two brands, were continuously
produced with muliple press runs within each Series.

TED Z

So Ted,do you think its possible that the Polar Bear cards went to the drawing board/press setup in that short time frame because of the timing of the Abstein and Demmitt acquisitions?

Or do you think they just left him with Pittsburgh because they were champs? I think if thats the case why didnt they change Bobby Byrne who the Pirates got midseason from St Louis in 1909,he was the regular 3rd baseman after they traded Jap Barbeau(who is also a St Louis only card) for him in august

Ted,

I generally think the so-called "assorted" backs (including Polar Bear) were first printed in the 350-only print run after Piedmont and Sweet Cap were first printed. For example, one article I read while researching T206 (I forget which one) indicated that American Beauty 350 was not launched until July 1910--well after Piedmont 350 and Sweet Cap 350 were released.

John,

It is paradoxical that Bobby Byrne and Jap Barbeau both appear in the 350-only series with St. Louis, even though one was traded for the other as part of an August 1909 deal. This means that some of the 350-only artwork was likely created BEFORE August 1909 while OTHER 350-only artwork was definitively created AFTER August 1909. More generally, this means that you cannot place a precise date on T206 artwork creation from team captions; T206 creation was a PROCESS, not an EVENT.

Scot

Scot,

That was one fine post.


Ted,

An excellent thread. This is what we should be doing....


Thank you guys!

this is a very informative thread, i wish i could contribute something new to it, or add further knowledge...but all i can do is confirm what we already know: demmitt & o'hara are tuff cards to acquire in any grade, especially anything VG and above, staining always seems to be problem (polar bear only, obviously). i see a bit more demmitts than o'hara, but i find them pretty evenly priced.

look forward to seeing more findings evolve from this thread (also interested to see if we get anywhere else with the cobb/cobb thread)...

You seek out high-end T206's....how many Demmitt's and O'Hara's have you seen in Vg-Ex or better ?

TED Z

We are trying to "decypher" the thinking behind the "Monster"....it is, at times, un-decypherable.
Such as the team identifications of Barbeau and Byrne......yes, if Barbeau is with St. Louis, then
it goes without saying, that Byrne should be identified with Pitt.

Barbeau is represented on most 350 series brands except for Sovereign.

Byrne is only found with Piedmont 350, Sweet Caporal 350, and Sovereign 350.......all the other
usual backs have not been confirmed. In my experience over the years, Byrne has been a tough
card to find.

One added note....if my homework is correct, Byrne and Charles are the only St Louis (AL or NL)
players in the 350 and 460 Series that are not found with POLAR BEAR backs.

TED Z

Ted- believe it or not...i have slowly been liquidating my high-grade items...i am re-focusing on rare variations & rare backs.

i own a demmitt PSA 3 & an o'hara PSA 2. i hardly ever see high grade (or even mid grade) demmitts & o'haras. there was a demmitt PSA 5 on ebay a few months back (i believe the buy it now price was $22,000) but it did not sell. i have some older auction catalogs (mastro's, SCP-Harris Sale) with a 7 and an 8 of each (they now reside in the collections of two of the top PSA set reg collections.

bottom line is, when they come up for sale or auction, they are almost always in the 1-3 range. rarely see a 4 or a 5...and the very small hand-full of others graded higher are simply put away in the vaults...

These two variations are becoming very tough to find in any condition, primarily because there are
several hundred near complete T206 sets (520+ cards) in collector's hands.

Scot Reader's estimate is that there are about 200-300 each of Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) cards;
and, I'm inclined to stretch those numbers out to 400. In any event, it's becoming apparent that not
too many more of these cards will be coming "out of the woodwork".

There are at least two Forum members that have Ex (or dare I say....better) examples of these cards.
I have had 3 of each.....and, the better 4 cards, I have sold or traded. The best one I had was in my
1st set and that was a Vg-Ex Demmitt. O'Hara invariably seems to be the tougher one to find in nice
shape.

The Demmitt and O'Hara I posted in this Thread are my current ones and they are the poorer examples
that I've had.

TED Z

My Demmitt is an SGC 10 and my O'Hara is an SGC 20, but you can be sure they will not be listed for resale for some time as they will be cornerstones of my 521 card set. My feeling on those as well as my recent Magie error pick up was that it was important to stretch now just to add any example to my collection, since the well on these things will dry up as more people complete their near sets. Of course, if prices skyrocket on them, people who thought they'd never sell just might.

Interesting thread.
Hasn't the assumption always been that Demmitt and O'Hara were produced in the same quantities as any other T206 with a Polar Bear back? Given attrition over the years, it's likely impossible to know. Whether there are more Demmitts or O'Haras left could be because of the American Litho Company and ATC or dumb luck.

At any rate, every one of them, in theory, passed through here:

T206Collector, now that you have the Magie do you have the ambition to pick up the Plank, and a low grade Wagner and Doyle? Its pretty darn rare to have the monster with the big 4. Obviously those that do sell the big 4 seperately at auction, but to have it all together in one place, what a beautiful site it would be!

Ted,

Not getting easier to find that’s for sure. I was kicking myself for weeks when I bought the pair below back in 2001, glad I did now.



I had searched for quite sometime almost 10+yrs to find nice stain free, crease free examples, with good eye appeal. The last few high grade or higher-grade examples I have seen echo Mike’s comments. Here are some of the nicer examples that have gone up for sale.

Demmitt PSA 6 Harris Auction Aug 2000 $5,971.32

O’Hara PSA 4 Harris Auction Aug 2000 $4,672.92

O’Hara PSA 5 Mastro December 2004 $12,719.07

O’Hara PSA 5 Superior August 2005 $13,455.00

Demmitt PSA 5 Ebay Feb 2007 2007 $22,000.00 BIN (Not Sold)

Interesting note the really nice set that sold in REA had O’Hara in a PSA 4 and Demmitt in PSA 3, yet had Plank and Magie in 4’s.The set breakdown was PSA 8 (2), PSA 7 (102), PSA 6 (183), PSA 5 (221) and (11) PSA 4’s.

JOHN W

I knew you would show us your Demmitt and O'Hara.

But, what took you so long ?



TED Z

JAMIE

Great postcard of the Ohio Factory.

Your comment....
"Hasn't the assumption always been that Demmitt and O'Hara were produced in the same quantities as any
other T206 with a Polar Bear back?

I have heard this, also....and it would make sense, along with what I suggested earlier, that the Polar Bear
production was limited to one press run. And because both Demmitt and O'Hara (as St Louis players) were
no longer in the Majors in the Fall of 1910 when these cards were available in Chewing Tobacco pouches....
many of them were being "dis-carded".

I remember as kid, tossing BB cards of players that were no longer active in the Majors and keeping the ones
that I read about in the Sporting News.

Thanks for showing us your pix.

TED Z

I think cards were tossed when the players on them were out of baseball.

I did that as a kid. It makes sense. And I think that contributes to a bit of a premium on T206 Powers cards... as well as many of the T209s, T210s, T211s... especially if the guys didn't go on up to the majors.

Wonka, great cards! Wow, thanks for the scans.

Mike Powers is one of the "Difficult Dozen" in the T206 set that are in the 150-only category.
He died in an accident at the start of the 1909 season.

So, you make a great point....and compound that with this card being a "limited-printed" one,
it makes it even tougher to find.

The same applies for two other cards in the 150-only category.....

Donlin (fielding)....who dropped out of BB at the end of the 1909 season to to go into vaudeville

Harry Pattee........who only played Major Lge. BB in 1908

TED Z

<<T206Collector, now that you have the Magie do you have the ambition to pick up the Plank, and a low grade Wagner and Doyle?>>

What I did to afford the Magie was sell a small chunk of my collection -- my SGC 60 Johnson portrait, SGC 70 Tinker portrait, SGC 60 Baker, SGC 60 Crawford batting, SGC 40 53 Topps Mantle and SGC 40 54 Bowman Mantle. After I bought the Magie, I replaced the Tinker (SGC 40), Baker (SGC 30), Crawford (SGC 50) and have still to replace the Johnson (and will not replace the Mantles).

I could see, for example, selling my four Cobbs (SGC 60, 50, 40 and 40) and my three Mathewsons (SGC 80, 60 and 60) to afford a low grade Plank -- and, on a much larger scale, after I upgrade my 521 a bit more, I could see selling them all to afford a low-grade Wagner (though, admittedly, I've got a ways to go to get there, but you get the picture.)

I will never pursue the Doyle. Never say never, I guess, but I feel more comfortable (because it's in my best interest) to consider the Doyle as a post-1911 creation by some very creative people.

<<to have it all together in one place, what a beautiful site it would be!>>

Yessiree!

Speaking about the Joe Doyle (error).....I have to disagree with you. The fact that it only exists
with a Piedmont 350 back is consistent with my "Piedmont Primacy" theory, and was a legitimately
issued card when the 350-only Series was introduced in the Spring of 1910. Consider it an initial
2nd Series "goof".
Just like the Magie you recently acquired (which was an initial 1st Series "goof".....and the Magie
card exists only with a Piedmont 150 back).

TED Z

But, I like what you did to acquire the Magie. It's something similar to what I have been doing, lately.
When oppurtunity "knocks", I've been selling/trading off my better Star cards in this "booming" market
to get these higher priced, rare cards (usually in lower grade) that I need for my various sets. The
Star cards are always found at shows and ebay.....and, can be easily replaced.....it is those tough
commons that are elusive.

And, that latter comment is exactly what's holding me back from completing the last 10 % of my T206
Sovereign set. This has actually been a "dream" T206 sub-set to put together; no Wagner, Plank, Magie,
Doyle (error), nor 48 Southern Lgrs, nor 70 "no-print" cards are required to complete it.

TED Z

...important to get my foot in the door on Magie, Demmitt and O'Hara before they all go away for a little while in the hands of the 39 year old collectors that won't get rid of them for 30 or 40 years. I'd like to do the same thing with Plank at some point, but I just haven't seen the right opportunity to even consider it and, frankly, I happen to love my Cobbs and Mathewsons -- I'm not sure how I'd part with them, even if they are replaceable, because I picked them all up for (often well) under $1,200 each. Now that would be difficult if not impossible, except for the Red Cobb SGC 40.

With respect to the Doyle, I am sure there is very good evidence that the Doyle is a true variation. And I have no evidence that it is not. But I am sticking to my guns for the time being. I believe Bill Heitman (or someone with better knowledge than I) has posed an alternate theory which I would like to subscribe to, again, for purely self-interested reasons (that is, I don't own one and they're hard to find.)

Ted- concerning your response to the print-run question...

<<"Hasn't the assumption always been that Demmitt and O'Hara were produced in the same quantities as any
other T206 with a Polar Bear back?

I have heard this, also....and it would make sense, along with what I suggested earlier, that the Polar Bear
production was limited to one press run. And because both Demmitt and O'Hara (as St Louis players) were
no longer in the Majors in the Fall of 1910 when these cards were available in Chewing Tobacco pouches....
many of them were being "dis-carded".>>


...can you expand on the "print-run" quantity issue? i actually always assumed they were printed in LESS quantities...

Interesting concept Paul, might have been a smart move on Magie, I passed on a VGEX about 3 yrs ago, thought 4.5k was too much. LOL and the last Magie I went to purchase was no longer available upon purchase.

However on the Plank even if you sold all those cards above.I still think you would fall short from buying a Plank. The last AUTH Plank went for $15,708.27





As for Wagner I could sell every card I own and still not get a beat Wagner.LOL

My comment...."I have heard this, also....and it would make sense, along with what I suggested earlier,
that the Polar Bear production was limited to one press run."

....this speculation on my part; but, it would account for the limited availability of the POLAR BEAR's.

And, let's place this in the proper context with respect to the multi-press runs of the Piedmont's and the
Sweet Cap's (Factory 30).

Perhaps, Joe D. will chime in here, and give us the benefit of his printing expertise.....

"Where have you gone Joe D....we need your input ?"

Edited to add....are you asking about all the 300+ Polar Bear cards or just Demmitt and O'Hara ?

TED Z

In the April, 2004 Mastro Auction lot# 1083 was a Demmitt graded PSA 8! It sold at the time for $26,435. Guess it's worth more today.

<<However on the Plank even if you sold all those cards above. I still think you would fall short from buying a Plank. The last AUTH Plank went for $15,708.27>>

Indeed, to raise 15K, I would also have to throw in my Lajoies (SGC 60, 60 and 50), my Young portrait (SGC 40), my Brown portrait (SGC 60) and my Eddie Collins (SGC 70).

So, if anyone out there wants to make the following trade, please contact me:

Your SGC 10 or "Authentic" Eddie Plank card for my:

Cobb Bat On (SGC 60)
Cobb Bat Off (SGC 50)
Cobb Green (SGC 40)
Cobb Red (SGC 40)
Mathewson Portrait (SGC 80)
Mathewson White (SGC 60)
Mathewson Dark (SGC 60)
Lajoie With Bat (SGC 60)
Lajoie Throwing (SGC 60)
Lajoie Portrait (SGC 50)
Young Portrait (SGC 40)
Brown Portrait (SGC 60)
Eddie Collins (SGC 70)

...then we may have a deal.

Indeed, the fact that that Plank went for $15K is precisely why I felt it was important to get my beater Magie now. I believe it will follow Plank up the price ladder. The reason I had held off was because I saw VG 3 Magie's selling for $4,500 and figured I would wait a little while longer. But then a PSA 1 went for over $5,000 on ebay a few months back and I felt it was time to act before it got any worse.

Paul,

I am a 39 year old collector thinking about picking up Demmitt and O'Hara sometime in the near future. I guess I have turned into a cheap stereotype.

Scot

...the average age of Net54'ers came out to 39, I believe. That's why I chose that age.

Which makes me even more of a cheap stereotype ....

Ted- i was specifically asking about demmitt & o'hara. i thought they were printed in less numbers (hense the rarity)...i didn't think that they were printed in the same amount of quanitites as other T206 cards or even other Polar Bear's, for that matter. obviously i knew (since i was 15) that they were only available with Polar Bear backs, but i also assumed there were much fewer of them printed then neal ball for example. i just assumed that ALL of the tuffer "team change" cards were printed in less numbers...

...highly predictable.

I’m with Mike on this I always assumed printed in fewer quantities due to the team change, and PB being the only one who noted the change. Is it also plausible to assume that perhaps Polar Bear had larger distribution in the OH, MO, PA area’s hence they thought it note worthy to note the change for these two veterans?

I think we all agree that there was some rationality to the distribution of these cards. I’ve often wondered if they went as far as too add more of local boys to the packs of smokes or chew heading to those particular areas??? Just a crazy thought…

Paul have an image of your Magie, congrats by the way didn’t realize you snagged one. Score Paul (1), John (wonkaticket) (0). LOL

Demmitt (St. Louis) and O'Hara (St. Louis) appeared roughly as often as other Polar Bear subjects in my survey, although I will grant that the survey sample size was not large enough to draw firm conclusions.

Also, for what it's worth, Lew Lipset states in his Encyclopedia:

"It should be understood that Demmitt and O'Hara are not rare within Polar Bear but [are rare] in T206 only because they came only with the Polar Bear back."

Interesting Scot so they came up as much as any other player with PB??? So for instance PB Cobb Bat off, or PB Charlie Rhoads??? Demmit and O’Hara showed up as much or as frequently???

"It should be understood that Demmitt and O'Hara are not rare within Polar Bear but [are rare] in T206 only because they came only with the Polar Bear back."

I’ve read that a few times in my life, always seemed like a redundant statement. Sort of like “Its not and Energy Drink, but a Drink of Energy.”

This exactly what I was trying to convey......guys, we have to put this all in perspective.

All the other 300+ cards that exist with POLAR BEAR backs, also have been printd with Piedmont's,
Sweet Cap's, Sovereign's, etc, etc....
therefore, the Demmitt and O'Hara (ST LOUIS) cards are unique; and therefore, stand out in the greater
population of T206's.

TED Z

"Demmitt (St. Louis) and O'Hara (St. Louis) appeared roughly as often as other Polar Bear subjects in my survey, although I will grant that the survey sample size was not large enough to draw firm conclusions."

Ted, that’s nothing new what Lew wrote, but what Scot wrote would indicate that a PB back card of any T206 player would be roughly as tough as a O'hara or Demmitt. Or am I missing something here? If he sampled say 3000 cards, and say 20 of both Demmitt & O'Hara came up but only 20 Cobb's Bat off pose also popped up with PB back. Wouldn’t that make a PB Cobb Bat off a really tough card back combo??

Ted, John:

In my survey, 126 of the 207 350-only subjects appeared with the Polar Bear back at least once. These 126 subjects were seen on average (mean) with the Polar Bear back 2.79 times. Meanwhile, Demmitt (St. Louis) and O'Hara (St. Louis) were each seen 3 times. Again, the sample size is not as large as one would like (358 Polar Bears in all), but is consistent with the view that Demmitt (St. Louis) and O'Hara (St. Louis) underwent a full print run with Polar Bear and are more difficult only because they were not printed with other backs seen on 350-only subjects (e.g. Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, Sovereign, Tolstoi, American Beauty, Cycle, etc. etc.) Consider that Polar Bear comprised only about 6.6% of the 350-only print run; this means that even if Demmitt (St. Louis) and O'Hara (St. Louis) underwent a full print with Polar Bear they would still be 15X more difficult than a typical 350-only subject.

Scot

thanks guys...this clarifies a lot for me.

MS

That sort of clears it up, thanks Scot. I guess I’m a just confused or seeing things. For example Cobb Bat Off is 350 only correct? If so there have been 3 PB Cobb Bat off’s this month alone. Not to mention I have one or 2, and see PB Cobb Bat Off’s pretty routinely.

So if what your saying is accurate we should see both Demmit and O’Hara about the same correct, yet we don’t?? Why?

Your example, Cobb (bat off) is actually a 350/460 Subject, and can be found with many different backs.
Including Broad Leaf 460, Lenox, Red Hindu and Uzit.

However, both this Cobb and the Red Cobb, as I have said in a prior post, are found quite often with
Polar Bear backs. More often then the Demmitt or O'Hara. And, this I attribute to the "attrition rate" of
certain cards.

What do I mean by "attrition rate".....certainly the Cobb's were keepers by most back in 1910-11.
However, Demmitt and O'Hara were no longer "on the scene" (as they were relegated to the Minors).
Hence, many collectors discarded them.

TED Z

Ted, makes sense, thats why I said Cobb 350 only? Forgot he can also be found with 350-460 makes sense I sold won last year duh? So would you say our Lindaman Piedmont 350's are harder than say Demmitt/O'Hara??? Can this be??

Also George your out there right, for a guy who has 6000+ T206's surely you could bring some pretty powerful stuff info to the table. Feel free to chime in.

I still wonder what the significance is of both Demmitt's being in the T213-2 Coupons. I think some T206 questions can be answered by a close look at related sets. Is there a good resource on the web for Coupon scans?

You would have to remind me of that Lindaman that you beat me out on about a year ago. Anyhow,
yes your Lindy (Piedmont 350) is much scarcer than either Demmitt or O'Hara. I had been search-
ing for one for two years. After, 100's of Lindy's I finally found one.

But, I'm just one guy, both Scot Reader's huge survey and Bill Brown's "super set" survey hadn't either.
Until I finally inputted mine to Bill. You want to sell it or trade yours ?

Seriously, there are other T206's front/back combinations that are just as "scarce"....and, I'd venture
to say scarcer than Demmitt or O'Hara. And, who'd ever guess that certain Piedmont's are that rare.

I'll tell you, after "completing" a 518-card Piedmont-ONLY set, I started looking for the tougher 350 backs.
And, cards of Ames, Ewing, Tom Jones, Lundgren, Schulte, etc. just can't be found with P 350 backs.
And, these cards are not normally considered that tough....but, just add the "back factor" into the mix
and you better be patient....because you just aint going to find that card that soon.

TED Z

Ted,

I think Brian W. finally produced a Jones (St. Louis) with Piedmont 350. But Jones, Doyle (Throwing) and Lindaman are extremely difficult with any 350 back and Ames (Hands at Chest), Ewing and Schulte (Front View) may be impossible. I have monitored eBay for these subjects with any 350 back for about 3 1/2 years and none have shown up.

Scot

Brian W has the Tom Jones Piedmont 350. It is the only one I've seen.

Between you and I, we've probably seen many 100's of Ames (hands/chest) and Ewing cards; but, still
no P 350 backs on these. In my search, I not only rely on the Internet, but also fellow T206 collectors,
and of course Shows I set-up at, or attend.

TED Z

SCOT

Also, this Thread has prompted my interest in the Polar Bear cards. And, I am considering that my
next project might be assembling an all-Polar Bear set. To start with, I only have approx. 26 cards;
but, they include the two Cobb's and Demmitt and O'Hara.

And, my recent study of the Polar Bear cards, indicates that there are only 249 possible cards.

I arrived at this number by comparing your survey with Bill's "super set" data, and also from certain
cards that I've been monitoring. And, I find that of the possible 319 Polar Bear candidates.... 70 of
them are "No-Prints".
Interestingly, many of the Subjects of these PB no-prints coincide with the Sovereign no-prints.

If you get a chance, you might want to double-check my calculations.

Thanks,

TED Z

...my Cobb Bat Off (SGC 50) is a Polar Bear as well.

Ted- as you and i have discussed over the phone...it seems that most frank smith, chi & bos variations are seen with polar bear backs (obviously he can come with other brand backs, but the majority i have seen or handled, do have PB backs...what do you make of this...can we draw any information from this fact?

MS

MIKE

I have seen many Polar Bear backs on Smith (Chi & Bos), also.....however, I don't have an answer
for why.

Here are most of the 460 Series backs that this card is found with...including a very rare P460/42.
Missing is Sovereign (which is a "no-print").

TED Z

...is also a PB.

There was a good discussion a couple months back about the Smith (Chicago & Bos.) and Kleinow (Boston) cards, and one observation, I think, was that both cards are most common with Polar Bear backs, over all other possible brands. I believe Scot Reader had worked out a possible theory why that was, although I should re-read the thread because I could be wrong.

Jamie

Ted- A couple of quick notes-

Byrne has been a real pain in my behind- Sweet Cap and Piedmont are plentiful, but I came across only one other, and that was a Tolstoi. I don't think I appreciated how tough that combo was at the time or I would have grabbed it.
Lundgren (Chi) with a 350 is a real pain also. Dave Levin has a Pied. 350 for sale now, but cheap it ain't.
The only tougher backs that I've seen with Abstein are Broadleaf, Cycle and Tolstoi.

Judson

I remember the post by Scot and I did a search, but had no luck finding it. I'll try again later.

TED Z

“You want to sell it or trade yours ?”

Sure Ted, but seeing as its much harder to come by than Demmitt and O’Hara I cant see letting it go for say less than 10k, check or money order is fine Ted.

OK guy....."dueling" Lindy's......



TED Z collection

Recall that Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chicago and Boston) are not "true" 460-only subjects, but are really 350/460 regular print (RP) subjects in disguise. That is, these subjects experienced the 460 portion of the 350/460 RP print run, with their counterparts Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) and Smith (White Cap) having experienced the 350 portion of the 350/460 RP print run. That is why Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) and Smith (White Cap) are about 1.5X scarcer than a typical 350/460 RP subject and why Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Both) are about 3X scarcer than a typical 350/460 RP subject. That is also why you don't see Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Both) with backs that are characteristic of the 460-only series, such as Sovereign 460 and Sweet Caporal 460/30.

Now, the Polar Bear back was fairly prevalent in the 350/460 RP series, accounting for some 13.8% of all backs in that series. Meanwhile, all the variants of Piedmont 460 and Sweet Caporal 460 combined for about 24.4% of all backs in that series. So, if you assume that about 90% of the Polar Bears were printed during the 460 portion of the 350/460 RP print run (say 12.2% out of the 13.8%), you would expect some 1/3 of Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Both) to have Polar Bear--which seems at least close to in line with reality. So my guess (and it is just a guess) is that Polar Bears were printed heavily late in the 350/460 RP print run, which accounts for the high percentage of Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Both) with Polar Bear.

Of course, if this theory is true, you would also expect VERY FEW Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) and Smith (White Cap) examples with Polar Bear. Not sure if this is the case.

Scot- i need a drink after reading that post...

i'll re-read it later and try to digest that.

p.s. i was reading your book (for the 5th time) on the plane today...very informative.

I will try to define Scot's excellent explantion in terms of actual numbers....

My experience, in hunting down Kleinow (Bos) and Smith (Chi & Bos) cards during the course of
putting together my 4 t206 sets, is for every time I looked for a Piedmont 460, Sweet Cap 460,
or Sovereign 460 (which I never found....these two cards were not printed with Sov)....I found
on an average of 4 - 6 Polar Bear versions for any other given Tob. back.

This really frustrated me when I was putting together my Piedmont-only set. Smith was virtually the
last card I found with a P460 back. And also, frustrated me with my 2nd set, since I was trying to
put together an Ex to ExMt set. And, the typical Polar Bear Tob. staining was a hinderance to this
goal. Now one might say my experience is just anectdotal; however, surveys on these two cards will
reinforce this.

TED Z