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Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......

March 22 2007 at 5:12 PM

leon  (Premier Login leonl)
Forum Owner

I have no idea how I will be able to sell computers if I keep getting involved so much but anyway........

I just spoke to Steve...He really wants an end to this whole situation. He is willing to put the 18k into an escrow account and have this card tested. After he makes sure Mark's lawyer is a regular bar member in good standing he will even put it in one with her. Can't blame him for that. The card will be sent to an independent 3rd party paper conservator. It will be tested as to the date of printing. If it is conclusively found to be printed from the 1930 era I will buy it. If it is not conclusive Steve will refund the money. Period. I am not sure if this is good with Mark but this is what Steve is proposing. Steve will work with Mark, or I will be in the middle to help, he doesn't care one way or the other. I am going to lock this thread as there doesn't need to be any more commentary and all 3 parties have my contact info. I will update the board as to the outcome. Not sure it can be too much more fair.... From what I understand from Mark's lawyer, today, he doesn't really want to do this so I am not sure this is feasible. Again, I will update this thread and open it up later. I did want to let folks know what is going on. Sorry I locked the other thread but after 125 posts I am not sure what else could be said....thanks again

 
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leon
(Premier Login leonl)
Forum Owner

guys

March 22 2007, 8:24 PM 

I get moderator privileges on this one and want to say a bit more. I have about a half a dozen private emails from folks that have been in the hobby an average of 25 yrs....telling me to be careful on this. If anyone notices my wording above, and what I told Steve, is that the card has to be found to be conclusively printed circa 1930. Ink and cardstock alone won't do that. Corroborating evidence of some type will need to be there. Even with that being said, from the several experts, including SGC, that have examined this card.....I have gathered this is not a good fake. I do want to also thank everyone for looking out for me.....Ya' never know when I might hit a bump in the road so I will take all the help I can get ..take care...

edited spelling


    
This message has been edited by leonl on Mar 24, 2007 8:31 PM


 
 

leon
(Premier Login leonl)
Forum Owner

update

March 23 2007, 11:24 AM 

I will give a few updates as we go along. Everyone can form your own opinion about it but I will provide the facts. I don't care to have too much commentary right now, but EVERYONE will have another chance to speak on the subject....Right now I am not sure what more can be accomplished, or said, than what is in the 125 post thread. I spoke with Mark H. and Marshall Fogel last night. Mark thanked me for trying to help. Marshall and I spoke about the way this is being handled and what would be best. I spoke with Steve just now and apprised him of that. Right now Steve is waiting for a call back from a conservator. Steve still wants it to be examined, which is fine...even though the ink and paper alone won't be enough to be definitive....however, if by some miracle, the process used to print the card was only done in the 1930's then that would be big news. Again, I am told by at least 6 extremely knowledgable folks, that have handled the card, that it's not good....but we are still making process towards resolution. Mark is willing to have Steve put the money in an escrow with Mark's lawyer. Steve is ok with this too. So that means Mark will be getting his money back. As I learn more I will update everyone. When the outcome is reached we can open this back up for debate....for now let's get some resolution though. For the record this is not exactly the way I would have done this if I were Steve and I have told Steve this.....However, it is being handled as quickly as possible....thanks much...

 
 

leon
(Premier Login leonl)
Forum Owner

ok

March 23 2007, 1:03 PM 

You guys can post away....this was never meant to be a private deal between Steve and I...I am only trying to help all concerned parties...if it is real, and someone else wants it, they can buy it....it's only cardboard....thanks

 
 

John
(Login wonkaticket)

Re: Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......

March 23 2007, 1:06 PM 

Leon, only one question you said if its proven to be real you will but it, if its real why wouldn't the person who bought it in the first place want to keep it?

 
 

leon
(Premier Login leonl)
Forum Owner

John

March 23 2007, 1:09 PM 

First of all maybe it was a mistake to lock this thread.....so for that...it's unlocked now. To say it was some private deal was kind of stupid imo. If it was private why would I be posting it? As for Mark keeping the card if it's real, it's still up to him, but he has indicated to me he doesn't want it now. I am totally open to buying it or not, if it can be proven to have been printed in circa 1930. Hope this helps explain....

 
 

John
(Login wonkaticket)

Re: Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......

March 23 2007, 1:23 PM 

Leon, thanks for answering my question. It was more out of morbid curiosity than anything else. If it’s real would be a gem of an item huh?

Also for what its worth I had really no problem with you locking the thread. In fact if you didn’t it more than likely would have had another 200 posts, with about 20 posts adding something new or valuable to a discussion that was beat to death IMO.

Leon for the most part you do a pretty good job here, personally I can only think of a few things that you have done in the past that I didn’t agree with per say, locking this was not one of them.

Regards,

John

 
 

Bob
(Login tbob)
Registered Users

Re: Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......

March 23 2007, 1:46 PM 

I don't think either party fared well in this ordeal. Steve Verkman probably lost a lot of potential customers and the buyer has had to agonize over a card which is, to use the term Lew Lipset used in his book, a "cinderella."
I'm with John, I don't see a problem with the 125 post thread locking. It was getting pretty bad. One could argue that it was only the scathing posts which pushed Steve in to a position where the buyer was able to receive a refund but I think the thread degenerated and agree with Barry that enough was enough.
Freedom of speech is dear but it should also be remembered that the purpose of this board is to discuss cards and the hobby in general. Contrast the way this thread spiralled. I think everyone had their say and it appears things have been resolved.
I read a couple of threads about the Demmit and O'Hara variations and other card discussions and it reminded me of how useful and informative this board can be.

 
 

Dylan
(Login EcardCollector)

Re: Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......

March 23 2007, 3:15 PM 

Leon you mentioned SGC having looked at the card. I read in the other thread that PSA had examined it, but not SGC as well. Has it just been sent off to SGC? If both SGC and PSA deem it as a counterfeit thats pretty conclusive for most people. If the paper and ink testing comes out to show its from around 1930 what would be the next step in conclusively establishing authenticity? Apparently no info has ever been found about this calender in Goudey records, how will anyone be able to verify it was actually produced by the Goudey Gum Company?

 
 

leon
(Premier Login leonl)
Forum Owner

Dylan

March 23 2007, 3:29 PM 

I was told by SGC, yesterday, that they had physically looked at this card around 8 mos ago (don't hold me or them to the exact time as they didn't remember it exactly) and they quickly deemed it counterfeit. Another big bullet against the card.....They didn't remember who sent it in....Steve told me this morning that he was unaware that they had ever looked at it....regards

 
 
Mike
(Login midwestcpa)

Fraud?

March 23 2007, 4:09 PM 

I'm no lawyer, but I would assume whoever submitted the card to SGC was directly involved in having the card resold without proper disclosure. Isn't that fraud? For example, if I somehow end up with a counterfeit $100 bill that was deemed so by an expert, even if I wasn't the original bad guy, I'm committing a crime if I sell (or spend) the bill without proper disclosure.

Also, doesn't SGC have some responsibility for speaking up when they see a card they have concluded was counterfeit fetching $18k at a major auction?! I would assume they pay some attention to these auctions for marketing purposes.

 
 

Joe D.
(Login bijoem)

am I understanding correctly?

March 23 2007, 4:23 PM 

Leon,

Are you saying that SGC rejected this card after it was won the first time and prior to it being auctioned off for the second time?

edited because the implication of the above leads to a terrible hypothetical.


    
This message has been edited by bijoem on Mar 23, 2007 4:25 PM


 
 

Bob
(Login tbob)
Registered Users

Re: Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......

March 23 2007, 4:28 PM 

Yes, it would be interesting to know the timeline.

 
 

leon
(Premier Login leonl)
Forum Owner

time line

March 23 2007, 4:28 PM 

I am not sure of the time line, guys....it is all second hand information to me.....

 
 
Peter Spaeth
(Login Peter_Spaeth)

Dream team

March 23 2007, 4:39 PM 

The group of individuals and organizations that believe this card is not authentic reads like a hobby dream team: Mr. Mastro, Mr. Fogel, Mr. Lifson (I think), SGC, PSA, and undisclosed others. At some point common sense dictates accepting this collective wisdom and moving on -- not to mention the clear contractual language compelling acceptance of the buyer's return.


    
This message has been edited by Peter_Spaeth on Mar 23, 2007 4:42 PM


 
 
E, Daniel
(Login flinchfree)

I would echo something Bob said -

March 23 2007, 4:42 PM 

"One could argue that it was only the scathing posts which pushed Steve in to a position where the buyer was able to receive a refund ".
I absolutely believe had Mark been left to fight this issue out by himself he would be going nowhere fast.

Leon's over-generous gesture (in my opinion) to offer an extra out for both parties is also nothing short of startling - not sure anyone else no matter how cashed up would have taken that step of offering themselves up as a potential buyer for such a questionably important or aesthetically interesting card.

So lastly Leon, I humbly ask why on earth you believe this card to be worth 18K plus???
Cinderella - great. Ruth - fabulous. 18K - ummm, seriously??? I mean the card has no interesting correlation to the player apart from his image, no relation to feats of playing not otherwise captured, or event that was shaping to him or the country, or seemingly anything. Couldn't you buy a gamer bat for that kind of money, something with more apparent reference to the man himself? I just don't get it.


Respectfully



Edited to give Cinderella her correct nomenclature.
Daniel


    
This message has been edited by flinchfree on Mar 23, 2007 4:49 PM


 
 

Dan Bretta
(Login slidekellyslide)
Network 54 Moderator

Re: Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......

March 23 2007, 4:53 PM 

Well this card if it were found to be legitimate wouldn't just be a Cinderella Ruth card which by itself is probably easily an 18K card, but it would be the first Goudey baseball card known also.

 
 
E, Daniel
(Login flinchfree)

Thanks Dan

March 23 2007, 4:57 PM 

I knew there was a reason my wife calls me idiot .......though still don't like it THAT much for 18K.


Daniel


    
This message has been edited by flinchfree on Mar 23, 2007 8:17 PM


 
 

leon
(Premier Login leonl)
Forum Owner

Dan

March 23 2007, 5:03 PM 

Correct....the first Goudey baseball card, predating all others by 3 yrs, with Ruth on it.....hello.....

Daniel- I am not too bright but I think the card would/should be worth more if it was real.....and we don't need to belabor that point (real?) much more....

 
 

Dan Bretta
(Login slidekellyslide)
Network 54 Moderator

Re: Hopeful conclusion to the 1930 Goudey Ruth saga......

March 23 2007, 5:05 PM 

Heh. We're only talking hypotheticals anyways since I think we can safely say with 100% assurety that this card is a fake.

 
 
 
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