http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/iteam/2007/06/photos-prove-wagner-card-was-t.html


"Still, the questions surrounding the card never went away, and in a 2005 interview, PSA grader Bill Hughes, a member of the team that inspected the Gretzky T206 Wagner, admitted he knew the card had been cut from a sheet when he graded the card.

“We were aware of that when the card came to PSA,” he is quoted as saying in “The Card.” “This particular card was obviously cut…The card is so outstanding, it would have been sacreligious to call that card trimmed and completely devalue it.”"

God I love grading.

I know the story about the card being trimmed is "old news", but that was the first time I had seen that quote before which is why I posted the link to that article in the other thread. I also found the pictures interesting. It makes me wonder how many other times they've holdered a trimmed card because it would be sacreligious not to?

altered or not, cards are to be worshipped, and this is why I only display mine in shrine-like settings, complete with candles, incense, sacrificial alters, -and my favorite: an incredibly life-like collection of resplendently decorated dioramas that depict the various religious wars that have occurred through the centuries, changing earth's landscapes and the fates of mankind!

It can only be in this environment, accompanied by thunderous drums, the desperate wailing of virgins, and rivers of remorseful despair that I can properly trim and soak my many rare vintage cards for re-sale on ...The Bay!

ugh.
please.

Hi Doug, I didn't state that exactly how I meant it and you finding the article with the old pictures is huge! I meant that the story was old news amongst the collectors that were in the hobby at the time. You done good and I must give you all of the credit for it. Of course when the death threats start coming in to my email again for this post, I may need you to take a bullet for me. Thanks again, Dan.

No offense taken. As I stated above I know the story itself is old news, but I wasn't sure how many people had seen those pictures before or how many had read that interesting quote. If it comes down to taking bullets, I'm happy to pass on taking the credit for finding it!

Hi Jason, great work! I enjoyed reading that poetry. But heck if they are going to slab trimmed cards and admit it, what good is the grading then? Dan.

Dan,

Something you seem to forget is that grading is SUBJECTIVE. In this case the intent of the grader was also subjective. In his eyes the card may have been trimmed but "The card is so outstanding, it would have been sacreligious to call that card trimmed and completely devalue it.” That is stretching subjectivity but we must keep in mind that it's up to the grader to tell us what the card is worth. Hell, we're just too stupid as collectors to determine value and condition. Notice that VALUE goes before CONDITION because that's the direction the hobby took after the grading started. Who cares about the card, look at the NUMBER on the label, the almighty number is what drives some collectors. Who cares about alterations and true condition. It's all about that stupid number on the label. If the grader wants to assign a high number to a card, then so be it. In some cases it matters not that the card is altered, it matters that some a-hole is dictating that the cards will be assigned a numerical value > (greater than) a certain number. Look at the Harris Collection. Look at the Gretzky Wagner.

I feel sorry for Gretzky because his good name will forever be associated with this card. If I were Gretzky I'd demand that the Gretzky name was removed from that STUPID label.

on my little rant!
I am with you.

You trim cards, then grade them, then sell them, then base a new firm's reputation on them, and grow grow grow!

Business plan: A+++
Integrity: F
Contribution to the Hobby: N/A (not ascertained, i.e. could argue both sides to this until cows come home-assuming that cows come home in the first place. I dunno, never been a dairy farmer)


I do have to admit that every time I sell or trade away my cards, and someone looks at them with an objective eye, I feel hurt and de-valued. But to infer some religious connection? ugh.

Well put Judge but don't feel sorry for Gretzky, I remember him as a great hockey player on one of the greatest teams ever! The Edmonton Oilers.

The Gretzky-McNall name on the flip has been removed, according to a previous thread.

...or he'd never have let this one slip by. Yes, the word is quoted from the article, but it's really "sacrilegious." It comes from sacri + legus: one who steals sacred things.

And now, back to the topic.

Here's a concept-->How about using a system that has only three designations?

GNA: Genuine-not altered
GA: Genuine-altered
B: Bogus.

Let the buyer decide how appealing the card is and, therefore, what it's "worth." Pinhole, chunk missing, and ink stain? GNA. Four sharp corners, and factory sheen? Still GNA. Trimmed? GA. Recolored? GA. Ex-Renata Galasso? B

Just a thought.

Bill

Bill - I am a proponent of that system and have said so for some time.

Bill- you're right, and I missed it. I learned a new word today.

Thats a good idea, but what happens when the grader says "The card is so outstanding, it would have been sacreligious to call that card trimmed and completely devalue it." so they put it in an unaltered holder anyway?

Here, here, Bill!

I was wondering who was going to catch that spelling error.

I rather like it

Doug,

That's when you sue for FRAUD!!

David

Do any of you know "PSA grader Bill Hughes." I'd love to hear what he has to say. Was he misquoted to sell books? If he was accurately quoted, then obviously he didn't see anything wrong with what was done and didn't even regard it as a secret.

Has PSA publicly taken the position that the card is untrimmed? Or have they only said "no comment"?

....and will it be re-submitted for a potential bump to 8.5?

If it is the same Bill Hughes that has been in the hobby for 30 years and for some reason decided to get involved with this joke of a concept then I must state that he has forgotten more than bimbo Joe Orlando and any of his graders will ever know about vintage cards. Bill has been around for awhile and if it is the same Bill, then I am very disappointed in the fact that he would be involved with 3rd party grading.

Bill Todd is a very good customer of mine and his opinion in this thread is completely agreed upon by me.

How many beers have you, I, and many Net54'ers had over saying how much we would like a grading system that is more of an authentication "only" system of grading. It seems like a lot of collectors would prefer this...but then there is the registry crowd......which has their own right to do what they want to also. Maybe a company could slab both ways? Certain color label for an authentic and another for altered...and, why not, another color for a fake/reprint?....sort of like comics do except without a number...?

This thread has been up all day, where are the "slabheads" as Leon calls them. I want to hear from the PSA CULT members on this. Their precious cult is in jeapordy here. Please do chime in and tell us how you have thousands of slabbed cards that are not altered in any way. There is no way PSA would slab an altered card yet admit it!!!!!!!!!!!! SAY IT AIN'T SO!

Your correct Leon, most of us would agree with that method but then the investor paying for the labels (T206 commons at 8's 9's that are worth $300 max) would be out of the hobby. Grading can be an asset labeling authentic only. But we will never see that as the all mighty dollar is way too strong.

I thought the original owner said there was a red line or red mark of some sort by or on the border?? That is quoted by the original owner that sold it to Mastro per the book. I have to side with the Mastro guys on that documented photo may not be original. I don't see that in the picture or in that article. Per the book it was a very clear red line or mark? Again, I don't see that in the picture in the article...Just thought I would add my 2 cents after reading the book?? By the way it is a super interesting book. Highly recommend.

A very fair and interesting statement Jimbo. Are you saying that the article done by the investigators is fraudulent? I would like to think that they dotted their eyes and crossed their T's before they would print such a thing but who knows? I like the devils advocat here. Dan.

Give me some time. There is surely some mystery to the card though?

Dan,
I believe it is the same Bill Hughes you are thinking of. He used to be co-owner of Executive Collectibles/Executive Investments in the early '90s. I remember him telling me once (around '94 or '95) that he trained the people at PSA in grading. I know he had very close relations with them in the beginning. I did not know about grading the Wagner until I read the book.
JimB

Bill Hughes picture is in the book. I would say it is the Bill Hughes you are thinking of?? He lives in Texas and picture was courtesy of Michael Gidwitz.

the "good buddy" I mention in the Broadway Rick thread!
They were the closest of "pals"

He Dan!
For you~

http://www.psacard.com/giftcerts.chtml





BcD

I quote

"Whatever the case, Sevchuk and Ray(original owner) said the one thing is certain: When the card later known as the T206 Wagner PSA NM-MT 8 returned to the public eye a few years after Mastro bought it at Sevchuk's Hicksville store, it had been altered. The edges were no longer wavy. The red printer's line was gone."

I have no clue but I see No red printers mark on the alleged photo in that article. He also stated that only 3 copy's of his (Alan Ray's) photo were sent out and he named he 3 people in the book. Wentz, McNall, and I can't think of the third. I am not trying to stir the **** storm but there are always 2 sides to every story. Maybe, Ray was pissed he got taken on the card. Afraid to go public because he knows he is wrong?? His photo of the card surely does not mix with his quote in the book?? The guy that knows the true story is Lipson as he was with Mastro when they bought the card. You telling me he never got to look at the card or see a red printers line?? This is the same guythat runs the auction house with the no shilling honest bid system, which I believe. If he is so honest ask him,he will know the truth of the card cut or red printers mark?? With that being said, I believe Rob Lipson is honest and so is Bill Mastro. If there was a issue with the card Rob would know.

My gut feeling is Alan Ray is pissed he sold the card for $25K and it is worth much much more. You didn't hear Alan Ray bitching after the first 2 yrs Bill owned the card. He started bitching after the card sold for many thousand dollars later. He wanted publicity for HIS card maybe?? No clue.

Jim,

There is some validity to what you are saying since we know, based on available evidence, that Alan Ray was mistaken with respect to at least one important element of the card's condition/description. The light red printers' marks on the top of the T206 Wagner never vanished. They were there when Allan Ray owned it. They were there when the card was first auctioned by Sotheby's (see image below). And the last time I viewed the card (at the Anaheim National) the marks were still present.

The images from Lot 196 in the Copeland Collection/Sotheby's catalog from March 1991:

The stories about the Wagner being trimmed or not trimmed are boring. It doesn't matter. The card is breathtaking.

The stories I'd like to hear more of were the reprinting of various pre-war cards back in the fifties. Does anybody believe this occured?

Despite some claims I've read to the contrary, I think it is somewhat doubtful.

For what its worth.

The last time I saw (only time I saw) the McNall/Gretsky Wagner was at the National in Cleveland (2002, I think) and the red printers line was present then...

I don't expect to loose any sleep over the fact that the card may or may not have been trimmed.  I really don't care that much - it is still an awesome card..

There are a few idiots that think the PSA 8 Wagner isn't even a real card.....always a few idiots though....Can't help that. Our last poll showed the majority of folks (myself included) think it was cut from a sheet and possibly trimmed down after that.....regards

A few opinnions indicate that they don't care that the card is trimmed. They feel the card is awesome. It is awesome. I think the point of the post was not that the card looks horrible but what PSA did, was wrong. Today, PSA will not provide a numerical grade to a card if they feel it is trimmed. I suppose that may not be entirely accurate. It's entirely possible that someone with pull at PSA could bypass the standard graders and give their subjective opinion that a card is not trimmed (even though they feel it is). It happened before...

Damn Fred, you are right on cue again! Let's not mask what the original post was intended for. What PSA did was wrong.

I do not believe that cards were reprinted any earlier than the mid 1970s. There was no need to reprint them in the 1950s as the small number of collectors could get just about any original they wanted for peanuts.

Correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it, PSA started and built their business because of the hype surrounding THE CARD. If it is true that THE CARD was cut from a sheet and later trimmed and was given preferential treatment because of WHO was on the front, then their whole business has, from the beginning, been built on a lie and a FRAUD.

I mean, if I sent in a T206 common card with an easy to find back that PSA deemed was cut from a sheet and then trimmed down, would they give THAT card such a high grade or would they slab it as Authentic and go on?? If they graded it "A" and went on then THAT brings into focus the fact that WHO is pictured on the front of the card and/or WHO is submitting a card makes a difference, which, I thought, goes against what the WHOLE idea of a third party grading system was supposed to take out of the equation. I.E. "The card is almost 100 years old and look how good it has held up". "Sure, it is trimmed BUT it HAS to be worth close to NM (compared to a common card in similiar condition) because it is a HONUS WAGNER", etc.

Aren't those (and MANY other) reasons why people got tired of dealing with dealers who EACH had their OWN set of grading and pricing guidelines??

In my opinion, if THE CARD has been cut from a sheet and later trimmed down(well after the sheet was printed, cut and the cards were distributed in packs) then it NEEDS to be graded as only Authentic and valued as such.

As far as collecting goes, I would MUCH rather own an original sheet of T206's with Honus Wagner on it than a cut down Wagner that LOOKS good. But that is just me.

david

Back in Nov. 2005 there was a very interesting Thread started by Scott Ingold.....here's the link.....

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1131565466/last-1132579205/lawsuit+against+psa

Scan down to Bill Heitman's post......Nov 11, 5:38 AM......

Quite a revealing story.