An Open Letter To Christopher Morales and STAT Authentic

Christopher, I was recently directed to your web site( www.moralesforensics.com) and since you state that you are willing to be involved in a Public Forum to assess your work efforts, I have created a few questions that I would like for you to publicly respond to in Forum form. I have also included a few questions for Ted Taylor and Jeff Stevens and I am hopeful that they can clarify a few things as well. I will also openly admit that I was the shadowed figure in the HBO Special known as “Eddie”.

1) Chris, you state on your site: "As to the Marino family skill, one of the lead federal undercover agents has opined that the Marino's were so skilled and even had obtained vintage items so that absent very specialized analysis and other clues, he probably wouldn't have known the items were fake. The HBO analysis appears to be based on an assumption that all confiscated items were fake and that cursory examinations by a convicted felon supplants legitimate testing."

First off, a federal undercover agent is NOT an autograph expert. You are the autograph expert. How would they know a good forgery from a bad forgery? Since you are supposedly the autograph expert, your skills were tested and you FAILED!

Second, there was no assumption that the items may have been legitimate. ALL of the signatures sent to you were forgeries. The forgeries were plucked from the California FBI warehouse with the assistance of FBI Special Agent Tim Fitzsimmons and all done by Greg Marino. The warehouse was separated into two sections, one for forgeries and one for authentic items. I repeat, the signatures of which you were tested on, were NOT AUTHENTIC!

2) You then state on your site: "It has been reported that the "star witness" has approached at least one of the parties who "failed" the HBO test seeking post-incarceration employment."

I am not a "star witness" (or a witness for that matter), but simply a consultant or contributor to this HBO piece. I would also like to know who I approached for employment following my incarceration. I NEVER ASKED ANYONE FOR A JOB! Please tell me who I contacted as I would love to know this.

3) You also state on your site: "At the same time, the "objective" witness and the HBO program recommended utilizing the services of one of the known felon's prior business associates."

First off, HBO DID NOT recommend utilizing my services and if memory fails me, I don't remember them ever recommending any services. Please advice as to whom they recommended/

4) You then state the following: "Forensic examiners" are highly skilled and while they cannot be perfect, a consumer's best protection is verification of any COA through such an examiner."

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Forensics kept us in business! Donald Frangipani passed 100% of the items sent to him. Did you see that part on the HBO Real Sports special where FBI special agent Tim Fitzsimmons plucks from a box a dozen or so identical looking Babe Ruth signed album pages, all with Frangipani Loa’s and all authenticated on the same day?

5) According to your site: "I am now and in the past been self employed since leaving the Federal government...I have never formed any partnerships. I have never had a business agreement or financial relationship with any other examiner(s)."

According to an interview with "Sports Collectors Digest", Donald Frangipani contradicts (I think) that statement.
SCD Interview:

SCD: Are you a partner with Christopher Morales?
DF: That is correct. Chris Morales worked with the Secret Service for a few years and has taken forensic courses. He has a double Masters degree; he's pretty bright.

And then Donald states…

SCD: Would you call him your protégé?
DF: Yes and no. We're not partners; we consult each other. Chris testifies in regular cases with me; we don't just do autographs. In fact, we just did two trials.

And then there is the matter of your own personal web site resume where it states:

Partner. Frangipani and Morales Forensic Investigations.

Yes, I do have DISDAIN for Forensics. You have at least that correctly.

Many of you may not be aware of this, but in 2003, Richard Simon, Steve Koschal and myself began working for Tracercode, an authenticating branch created by Bill Fleming. We were asked by Sports Collector’s Digest to authenticate some of the higher priced items in the monthly Coach’s Corner Sports Auctions. We were sent scans of about 200 autographs, of which, we passed 2-3 per month. We worked with Coach’s Corner Sports Auction for three months and then we were replaced.

My questions are now directed to Stat Authentics Ted Taylor and Jeff Stevens, two individuals who appear to have replaced us as the prime authenticating firm for the premium items in all of Coach’s Corner Sports Auctions.

1) My first question is for Ted Taylor. Ted, you worked for Scoreboard where you were surrounded by autographs of the three most popular Scoreboard subjects in Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams. How could you have gotten those three wrong when you were tested for the HBO Real Sports special?

2) Now Jeff Stevens. When Coach's Corner Sports Auction uses STAT to authenticate their Babe Ruth items, often there is a mention on how one of the members of the STAT team authenticates for the Babe Ruth museum. I contacted the Executive Director of the Babe Ruth Museum Michael Gibbins who stated that Jeff Stevens authenticates in person items. How does simply overseeing a signing (which a monkey can do) give you the right to admit openly that you are an expert on that particular celebrity due simply to the fact that you have a small association with the Museum? Don’t you feel this is a misleading statement?

In closing, the proof is in the pudding. Just look at the prices your pieces bring versus the known authenticators in hobby.

Shelly Jaffe

I would appreciate your posting a response . If you absolutely have to respond to me, you can do so at shellyj@cox.net


**************

oh boy.

Shelly - you're going to need an email addy on that post.

His email is at the bottom of his letter.

shellyj@cox.net

I know of Shelly and have spoken with him several times on the phone. I am sure I have his email address somewhere if anyone needs it....but I am comfortable this is really Shelly asking these tough questions. I don't have much knowledge about autographs so won't comment otherwise....This is not an anonymously posted thread....best regards

He already added his email to the OP. I couldn't care either way, just trying to help.

This thread should be deleted. Too many glass houses; somebody might fall through a window and injure themselves.

Synopsis of what follows ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2jUYNimDnE

I know you haven't been on the board very long but I have an unwritten rule to not delete threads except under extraordinary circumstances or if the original poster is anonymous. I might lock some threads but deleting is a major no-no. I know Shelly has had issues in the past but these questions sound like legitimate questions....It would be nice to have them responded to by the folks they are pointed at. I will say that I don't want any anonymous posts in this thread. If you post anonymously in this thread I will delete it. Forewarned is fair warned....best regards

Jodi - why do you think this thread should be deleted?
I think this thread will develop into a very interesting one.
PC- your post is very unclear, can you please explain what you mean?

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I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

from the original post:
"We were sent scans of about 200 autographs, of which, we passed 2-3 per month." Forget the glaring %ages and that CC has been blasted about this on a nearly weekly basis here and about the authenticity of their items...*********Authenticating autographs from SCANS just points to the general absurdity of the industry. It can't be done. It can rule something OUT but not IN. Sad.******** That also suggests to me that the people who continue to do so for auction houses and those who did so in concert with Mr. Jaffe (examined from scans) aren't the people I want verifying the authenticity of an auto I might purchase. I don't collect autographs - and kind of happy about it as the inherent problems with buying an autograph appears quite risky and I'd always be losing sleep worrying that it wasn't real........

Richard,
Im with you . I see no reason why this thread should be deleted. Shelly has asked some great questions and I would love to hear some of the answers.
Leon like you said it should definitely stay.

When we authenticated for Tracer Code we examined mostly scans , but the better items were sent to us upon our request. We issued very few COA's but the items that we did issue COA's for were always examined in person.
The items that we did not see in person were not necessary to see in person.

Two weeks ago three scans were posted here of Ruth, Johnson and Wagner autographs which were for sale on ebay, many people rendered worthwhile opinions on those items, by just viewing the scans. I had also written to several other highly respected people in the autograph business and sent them scanned copies of these autographs. All the opinions were unanimous in that the autographs were bad.

In addition during the HBO series, Mr Jaffe came across the famous Upper Deck $85,000 card with four autographs on it. Ruth, Cobb, Wagner and Johnson.
Mr Jaffe determined that Ruth and Johnson were forgeries and proceeded to send scans of those two autographs (without showing that they were from the Upper Deck card) to Jimmy Spence, myself, PSA, Steve Koschal, Jim Stinson and Seth Boyd. All of these people, based only on the scan, agreed with Shelly.

When something is obviously bad, a skilled authenticator can determine that the item is bad from a scan. When there is some doubt the item will then always be examined in person. We would never issue a COA without an in person examination.

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

Let's just say that Leon pointed out my greatest fear--that of a lot of anonymous pranksters throwing stones. Also, "finger-pointing" threads such as these can sometimes become so heated that they lose a great deal of objectivity. Those points now expressed, I will be happy to simply sit back and follow this thread from a casual standpoint.

I think Jafee should get off our pre war forum. I don't care to hear opinions from a scumbag who stole from children and grandmothers. He thinks he has been redeemed by spending a VERY short time in a federal jail? PLEASE! I have heard the theory that Shelly is good for the autograph community because he "knows forgeries". Can you imagine dropping off your little girl at daycare and being told a child molestor would be monitoring the class because he "knows other molestors and can sniff them out"? Give me a break. It surprises me that someone reputable like Simon would be associated with a scumbag and thief like Jafee. Go somewhere else

Micah, you need to put an email address with your posts in this thread.

Micah - people change, as has Shelly. I would not be so quick to condemn without knowing all the facts.
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I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

read above. I don't want a felon contacting me personally

as I guess you were included in my blanket statement. "...but the better items were sent to us upon our request. We issued very few COA's but the items that we did issue COA's for were always examined in person.". I essentially don't have a problem with this - although when an aution house says - these things were authenticated blah blah blah - it's discomforting to think it might have been viewed from a scan. The little buyer is just as concerned with their purchase as a high dollar collector is with their big money auto.. I understand time constraints and expense involved in authenticating big lots or more common elements don't leave much room to view everything all the time. I guess it is most important to know the reputation - experience - and diligence of the authenticator - which comes from experience and talking to other collectors/dealers.
BTW, I have only heard good things about you (Richard) and did purchase a Lekang auto when I was chasing the Sport King set. The transaction was quick and easy.......

Micah - ever see the movie, starring Tom Hanks & Leonardo De Caprio called Catch Me If You Can,,,, if not I suggest you give it a try.
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I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

You say "people change, as has Shelly". I agree with that. My problem with Shelly being in the autograph businss is that you and others associated with him and formed a partnership just a short time after he left prison. I would guess he was still on probation/parole at that point. I would like to think the autograph industry and any reputable dealer with half a brain would have waited a while. Lets see if he has really changed after several years, not several months. It just seemed ridiculous for anyone to accept him back in the hobby on such short notice. I think the public spoke their dissaproval by not untilizing Tracercodes services(they closed shop quickly) and no other reputable auction house or dealer has since employeed Jafee....thank God. I have a problem with these convicted Bullpen guys selling autographs again. tribetime! on ebay was a conviced bullpen felon and is now selling autograhs. Am I the only one who has an issue with this? When you are convicted of insurance fraud, you NEVER sell insurance again. It shoud apply to autographs as well. Richard-my grandmother used to have a saying "If you play with Sh*t, it is bound to get on you" I think your associaion with Jafee has kept you from entering the bigger auction houses as an authenticator. I have wondered why I don't see your name in Josh's auction, Mastro's, Hunts, Sothebys, or any other respected companies. It may be the company you are associated with, just my opinion.

Dan-Leon has my email. I do not want a convicted felon having my home email address.

Richard-I posted the last one before I read your suggestion of "Catch Me If You Can". Great movie but I hope you arent trying to compare Shelly with Frank Abagnale. The forger Abagnale spent over 7 years in various prisons in horrible conditions in France (He almost died there). Not only did he spend over 7 years but he also ONLY worked for the government and WITHOUT pay. Abagnale did not go into private consultation on fogeries for over 16 years after his release. He struggled as a grocercy store stock boy, unloaded trucks, etc for many years. He proved he was clean and redeemed after many, many YEARS, not months. Abagnale was on a much higher plane than anyone of the goons from Bullpen.

editted so as not to get the thread off track.

I know about leon's past and am not worried about him! Funny though.

in and of itself DOES sound a bit like a shot that shouldn't have been fired. Don't know you or your relationship with the object of that remark - but sometimes I think it's best to chuckle at something to yourself rather than say it out loud.........

My favorite quote of this thread is: "I think Jafee should get off our pre war forum". OUR pre-war forum? It's yours? And it's spelled "Jaffe".

The great part about the internet is that you can say what you want about anyone and never have to face them, which is what you are doing Micah.

While Shelly had a checkered past, he has done right by the educated autograph community. He did his time and he's not a bad guy anymore. Bringing Richard's reputation into this for dealing with Shelly is a low blow and uncalled for as well.

This is an interesting thread and I look forward to seeing how it concludes and whether anything good can come from it. So far, nothing good has come from it other than nonsense and character assasinations.

DJ

The great part about the internet is that you can say what you want about anyone and never have to face them, which is what you are doing Micah.

I had the pleasure of meeting Shelly at the National at Tracercodes booth and told their crew the same feelings to their face as I am saying now. I also had the misfortune of purchasing a forged Ted Williams and Ripken signature from Shelly. I haven't stated anything here that is not 100% factual. He is a convicted thief and con man, period. I hope he is redeemed and I hope he is a good guy now. It doesn't translate into letting him back in the business. I work out with the nicest guy in the world, a true gentleman. He was convicted of bank fraud in he 80's and served time. Guess what? He will NEVER work in the banking business again. Still a heck of a nice guy!

My two cents: I'll take one Leon ahead of three guys that dress roosters up in outfits before sending them out to kill each other, anyday.....

See? Sometimes the significance of a person's past is not all that it's cracked up to be.

Micah -- the reason your friend won't be back in the banking business is that it is governmentally regulated; therefore, if you're convicted of fraud, you're not working in the banking industry after. Unfortunately, the auction, card and autograph businesses are unregulated -- it's the Wild West out here.

Micah

While I agree with much of what you said the bottom line is the judge that sentenced him did not make it a condition of his Parole/probation. Thus, he is entitled to make a living anyway he wishes. All you or anyone can do is not utilize his services.

Steve

Micah - I am not associated with big auction houses because the major authenticators who work for auction houses are all backed by million dollar advertising campaigns. This has created a hierarchy in the mind of the collecting public, which thinks that the leading authentication company is the be all and end all of the hobby. I am sure that many people on this board have read many of the stories about them. I am sure that many of the people on this board disagree with the public perception of this company.
I worked with Shelly , that is certainly true. We did not form a business partnership but we worked together.
But so has Tim Fitzsimmons. Does that name ring a bell? Tim was the head FBI agent in Operation Bullpen. He will vouch for Shelly to anyone in this hobby. That was why I worked with Shelly. If he was good enough for Tim Fitzsimmons then he was good enough for me.

ps. Lelands does not use outside authenticators. Mike Hefner and Josh are two of the top people in the country regarding knowledge of autographs, and I would trust their opinion on autographs over anyone else.


I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

Who is "this company" you refer to...enlighten me, please. If an FBI agent, Tim Fitzimmons, is recomending Shelly for employment in the autograph industry mere months after his release (Is this what you mean?) then the FBI higher ups should seriously be looking into this agents competency. As for recomending him several years after the fact, sure, why not. Several months after the fact? I don't think so.

Richard, I appreciate your position and have high regard for you; I also have no problem with Shelly as he has paid his debt to society and made some amends for his prior bad acts.

That being said, the fact that an FBI agent would work with him is not necessarily a big deal; federal agents will work with anything and anyone to get a conviction in a case. Trust me, generally they don't think very highly of their cooperators. I can't speak of Shelly's specific situation but in my experience, some of the lowest, lyingest pieces of garbage are used by the feds to make cases.

"I am not associated with big auction houses because the major authenticators who work for auction houses are all backed by million dollar advertising campaigns." I know for a fact that Jimmy Spence doesn't have a million dollar ad campaign.

The company I am referring to is PSA, I assumed that was obvious to all.
And regarding Tim Fitzsimmons and Shelly, I don't know if it is possible for someone to communicate with Tim at this time, but Tim speaks highly of Shelly, feels he has paid his debt to society and Tim definitely trusts him.
Jimmy Spence had a million dollar ad campaign backing him when he spent five years with PSA.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

Spence would have a million dollar ad campaign if only he hadn't blown all his loot on attending courses on how to spot a real Sal Bando autograph.

Touche

Please email me again...
thanks

This thread has been running for 20 hours and we have yet to hear from Mr Morales or STAT.
Anybody want to venture a guess if they even will reply ?
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

I wrote about Morales and STAT because of the many postings about CC in this forum. Morales and STAT have made statements on their respective websites that I felt needed questioning.

Since some of you are making this thread about me I feel I have right to answer your questions and statements.

To answer Micah, I have never sold a forged Ripken ball in my life.As to the Ted Williams balls they came from B and J collectibles or Score Board. The reason I bought from these companies is that Greg Moreno could not forge Ted Williams' signature very well. You claim to have bought these items from me, show me the receipt. I very rarely sold to the public. I sold mostly to dealers who knew what they where getting. I issued receipts for all the items I sold. Show me the receipt that I issued to you for Ripken.

The court never asked me to pay back anyone I sold to. I did it anyway. Micah, if I sold you bogus items, why did you not attempt to obtain a refund from me?

My relationship with Tim Fitzsimmons of the FBI was based on the fact that I went out of my way to make sure this would not happen again. I took full responsibility for my actions. I was not an FBI informant in Operation Bullpen. There was one informant involved and he was the only one that the FBI needed.

Tim Fitzsimmons asked me if I would do a radio show. I said yes. He asked if I would answerer questions for people that got stuck from other companies selling bad merchandise. I said yes. He asked me if I would supply information to SCD. I said yes.

The FBI returned most of the merchandise they confiscated from me because the merchandise was deemed to be authentic. Score Board, UDA, Mounted Memories and signings from shows.

I was the one who contacted HBO and helped to bring all this to light.

I am not a saint and never will be. I do know forgeries and that is something no one can deny. There is no time limit on knowledge.

When I was asked if I could help Tracercode I said yes. Tracercode going out of business had nothing to do with the authenticating side of the business.

Micah if you said you came up to me and talked to me then please tell me your real name. You know who I am, yet I don't know who you are. Hiding behind a made up name on a forum makes it easy to do what you do. Let us all know who you really are and where you are located. I feel that if you can call me names and know my history, I deserve to know who you are.






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Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of

"Micah" did email me previously. It was a long time ago and is absolutely buried in hundreds of emails. I will try to find it and send you his name and contact info. He has not emailed me again. I have 0 tolerance for this particular kind of anonymity....regards

Thanks Leon.
As to the question about scans. Here is a perfect example of not needing this baseball in hand.

http://tinyurl.com/ywspc9

edited link

Shelly, funny how the government doesn't always require restitution from its cooperators and even allowed you to have your merchandise back instead of liquidating it and giving the money to victims. I'm sure you'll agree that such a practice is wrong.

Shelly has made some good points here. At least he has come clean here and stated his side ,which is more than I can say for alot of others.

"To answer Micah, I have never sold a forged Ripken ball in my life.As to the Ted Williams balls they came from B and J collectibles or Score Board. The reason I bought from these companies is that Greg Moreno could not forge Ted Williams' signature very well. You claim to have bought these items from me, show me the receipt. I very rarely sold to the public. I sold mostly to dealers who knew what they where getting. I issued receipts for all the items I sold. Show me the receipt that I issued to you for Ripken. "

I absolutely purchased these items from you. I returned these items along with Tiger Woods golf balls from Stan's Sports as well as a Bulls team signed ball from them to the FBI. I dealt with a female agent in the Sand Diego office shortly after everything came down. Why would I have approached a man headed to prison for the refund? I did exactly what SCD instructed buyers to do. I have yet to receive a refund. Not only was I not refunded but I know of at least a half dozen other dealers who sent bad items back and received nothing. In defense of the FBI, I was told on the front end that I may not receive the iems back or a refund and that it would be part of evidence.

"The court never asked me to pay back anyone I sold to. I did it anyway. Micah, if I sold you bogus items, why did you not attempt to obtain a refund from me?"
Give us some references. I and others would love to hear or see names of anyone who received a refund from you.

"Micah if you said you came up to me and talked to me then please tell me your real name. You know who I am, yet I don't know who you are. Hiding behind a made up name on a forum makes it easy to do what you do. Let us all know who you really are and where you are located. I feel that if you can call me names and know my history, I deserve to know who you are."

My real name is Micah. Leon has my full name and email. Not only did I come up to you at the National but there were others who witnessed it. I will contact them and ask permission to either use their names or have them post themselves regarding our conversation. You gave us a short version of events that made me, for the time, feel some empathy for you. You stated to me that you were caught up in this because you were tired of going to shows and competing against the guys selling forgeries. You regretted your actions, paid your time, etc. I have an issue with you claiming that you rarely dealt with the public. Were you not the same Shelly that would set up at the Frank and Sons warehouse show and others in the area from about 92 through 98? I was at these shows. At the National and through phone calls to Bill Flemming and to SCD I stated my beilief to you and others that you had no business being associated with autographs and you politely dissagreed. When Kevin Nelson's in depth, investigaive book was published which detailed many aspects of Operation Bullpen and your activities that the public was not aware of, I became aware that your version of events given to me by you at the National was at best sugar coated and bordered on out and out lies. While you looked me in the eye at the National and painted yourself as alomst a victim yourself, the book tells a different tale. Kevin Nelson reported that you actually auditioned these forgers. You called Marino to your home to see what he could do for you in terms of forgeries...you sought him out, not the other way. Is Kevin Nelson and the FBI signing off on this version wrong? That to me is much different than the version you have given to me and the readers of SCD. I believe Kevins account over your sugar coated version. The FBI had to sign off on every single fact that was printed before it could be published. I honestly believe that anyone who reads Kevins book and the facts will agree with me that you do not belong anywhere near the autograph business again. When you read the SCD article and your version of events and then read the book by Kevin Nelson, you are given completely different pictures. If anyone has the original interview or article from Krause, please read it, then go buy the book and compare.

It amazes me that you would come on this forum and continue to defend yourself by stating you bought items from B and J and Scoreboard and that is why your buyers ended up with forgeries. You auditioned forgers for Gods sake! You willfully sought out Marino and employeed his services. This is not Scoreboards fault. This is not B and J's fault. It is yours and yours alone. It is sad to see that you are still trying to paint yourself as a victim by pointing to B and J and Scoreboard. I encourage everyone to buy Kevin Nelson book...it is a great read.

Leon-Please provide your email once again, I will glady email you as I did before. Thanks

Shelly-Feel free to email me anytime, I will tell you the same as I am here. I don't mind you having my info. I just don't feel comfortable posting it for the rest of the world. Thanks!

Well Shelly,
Micah seems to know an awful lot about the whole story. It would be hard for me to believe that all he has said is just some made up pack of lies to make you look bad! I think its time you answer some of his statements.

I will be out the rest of the day to a basketball game but will respond to anything else this evening. I still need Leons email

I was ripped off last year by a guy named carl meyer to the tune of $500 for a fake autograph of ty cobb on a 1960 fleer. After doing some investigating I found others who were victims of his mail fraud. One of them told me that he works directly with Christopher Morales.
If abyone ever gets anything form carl meyer or a Joe Butler through the mail throw it out! I had purchased something from carl on ebay that I found out later was fake. a few months later I get a catalog from a joe Butler with unbelievable autograph prices (shoudl abeen my first clue. He had me make my M.O. out to carl meyer and I didnt put it together until after he cashed it who he was. I found his ebay user name and sure enough, hes bought an unsigned 1960 ty cobb fleer. I end up getting the "autographed" card and low and behold----- SAME CARD. Same creasing, corner wear, etc.
Coaches corner and STAT authentic are bad news. Why they arent shut down is beyond me.

Meyer is "sonnysports". We have talked about him on the board before. Handwritten flyers with all the names you could possibly want. Does STAT and Morales even know about this thread?

DJ

edit:

P.S Micah, Leon's e-mail is listed at the top of the thread of the site where you can contact the moderator.

I would be very wary of any Cobb-signed Fleers. I have certainly never seen a legitimate example. I have seen two Hornsbys and a really nice Vance, however. Has anyone on this forum encountered an authentic Fleer Cobb? I don't know the exact release date of the 1960 Fleer set, but, considering Cobb likely had +/- one year to sign these, chances are pretty slim. Judging by the players who I HAVE often encountered on the 1960's Fleer issues, these signed sets were not popularly collected until the very late 1960's.

Am I to assume that anything from ScoreBoard is suspect?

Steve

My email is on every single post I ever make on this board. All anyone has to do is click on it. My email is also at the top of almost every page where it says contact the moderator. I have never been accused of being hard to get a hold of ......and my cell # is 214-282-4943
regards

There is a question about fake Scoreboard COA's being circulated in the hobby. I don't think that Shelly is accusing Scoreboard of anything.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

Micah emailed me with his full name and contact info....I think he and Shelly have already emailed each other off line. That satisfies the anonymity aspect of this thread.....best regards

Sean - Carl Meyer has been around for over 20 years.
I had thought he was long gone, not having heard about him for some time, but was made aware of his presence about a year ago.

--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

I did not say that the Score Board items where bad. All I said is that is one place where I bought the Williams balls.
I opened this thread so we could talk about Morales and STAT and to reply to Morales statements. These are the guys that authenticate for CC. The ones you rip every week or so. I am not the bad guy is this story. I might be a felon and piece of garbage to some of you but this thread was not about me it was about showing who these authenticators really are.

"Does STAT and Morales even know about this thread?"

I emailed Chris to let him know of this thread and that his response was requested.

He emailed me back, the following message:

"I am in Mongolia on a forensic project as a contractor for the U.S. Government. I will be home on 2/11 and can deal with this then."


So now he knows about this thread.

All I can say is that the autograph business makes the card business look clean.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

I've stayed out of this thread but have been reading it. One thought, however, does come to mind:

Could there be a more reprehensible area of the hobby than autograph collecting? Fraud seems to be the norm, and the number of bad sellers and bad authenticators strains the imagination. How does anybody even enjoy this? It absolutely stinks.

Thanks you, and please carry on.

I couldn't agree with you more Barry.

I agree Barry. The only auto's I have in my collection are those that I got in person.


Steve

The only autographs I pursue are team signed minor league balls that no one would ever waste time forging.

I really don't know how anyone could spend big money on autographs - the horror stories are all too common.

Is this thread going to turn into a bunch of card guys bashing the autograph hobby now? I for one collect both and it would be nice if any input would serve to further the direction of this thread. It seems as though there is some real interest in the topic and that Shelly has touched a nerve or two. We all know the autograph hobby has its problems but what area of collecting doesn't. It's not like this forum doesn't have a page dedicated to trimming, soaking and otherwise altering baseball cards. I mean a seasoned autograph collector who can, for the most part, detect a forged signature (lets say someone with autograph knowledge comparable to Barry's knowledge about cards) might read this forum and say:

"Could there be a more reprehensible area of the hobby than card collecting? Fraud seems to be the norm, and the number of bad sellers and bad authenticators strains the imagination. How does anybody even enjoy this? It absolutely stinks."

FGN (is that your real name?)- that is a fair point and I know that autographs are widely collected. But I find this thread profoundly depressing as one scoundrel, or reformed scoundrel, confronts another. Why are there so many bad autographs in the hobby? It seems to me that any shady character can have a field day faking signatures, and I for one stay as far away from them as possible.

No question there is stuff that goes on with baseball cards. But this thread is a lulu.

In about 10 minutes your post is going to be deleted if you don't put your name by it.....nothing personal. The rules are the rules....

edited to say FDN has emailed me. he doesn't want to make his name public but I will share his name privately if need be....

The only cards I own are commons of the teams that I root for or have rooted for, cards that no one would ever waste time trimming, bleaching, erasing, reproducing, staining, coloring, restoring, stretching, aging, etc.

I would never spend big money on cards - the horror stories are all too common.
---



I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

But Richard, an altered card is still a card. A fake autograph is a piece of garbage. And the FBI claims that about 70% of all autographs are fakes; certainly the card market doesn't suffer from such a high rate of fraud.

Jeff - The FBI said 70% of the autograph market was fake. When the Marino family was riding high that might have been true. I am fairly certain it is not that high now, though it is certainly higher than the percentage of bogus cards. It is probably higher in the entertainment end of it than in the sports end.
And my post was meant partially to lighten up the mood here, not as a condemnation of card collecting .
I was just giving a little elbow to Dan Bretta for his post.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

Eric - I was wondering what the weather was like in Mongolia at 4 30 am when your e mail to Mr Morales was answered.

--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

Richard,

I guess I should state that I have no ties to Morales. I just want to see where this thread goes, and thought I'd help. I used to collect autographs, but have decided to part ways with the hobby. I don't like where it is today, or where it's going. Vintage cards is what I'm all about.

That being said I emailed Chris to let him know of this thread, so he could answer the questions that were asked of him.

The response I got back from him was at 9:18am, which means he would have responded at either 8:18pm or 9:18pm in Mongolian time zones, which is reasonable.

So if he won't be back until 2/11 to respond, this thread needs to stay towards the top and hopefully it won't get locked down before then.

Richard, Touche.

That's two "Touches" in one thread. Two too many!

But Richard, an altered card is still a card. A fake autograph is a piece of garbage. And the FBI claims that about 70% of all autographs are fakes; certainly the card market doesn't suffer from such a high rate of fraud.


That would be the coin market.


lol


Steve

I know, getting off track here, but what plagues the coin market?

I know absolutely nothing about coins.

Eric

Email sent.

Steve

Thanks Steve, I appreciate it.

You learn something new every day.

I had about 10 Scoreboard certified signed baseballs obtained in the late 1990s. A few years ago, sent them in to PSA/DNA and they all passed. Two of them were DiMaggio and Bench.

How will the Mongolian government react if eventually Morales was to have his good name publicly dragged through the mud? I guess the U.S. government does hire people with dubious credentials.

Yesterday after my post to Shelly that included some very pointed questions, Shelly wisely chose to take our discussion "off forum" I wish the forum would allow me to post these "private emails" but I understand it is against policy. I will of course follow the policy. What I would like to do however is to bring Shelly back in front of the public. Through the course of these private emails, one thing became apparent, Shelly is still trying to dish out half truths and sugar coated versions of his past. Shelly continues to dodge my questions and ask me "What does this have to do with STAT and Chris Morales?" To be claar, I have no ties to those dealers and to be honest have never had any dealings with those dealers/authenticators in any form or fashion. I have my own issues with numerous items I see in CC auctions.

1. I have yet to get Shelly to answer specificall who he has given refunds to. Not a single name of a reimburssed vistim. So once again Shelly, can you back up this claim?

2. Shelly originally denied ever dealing with the public on a regular basis. Not only did I witness him set up at shows in So Cal but in the last 24 hours I have spoken with other collectors and dealers that can attest to this. I have sent out emails directing them to this site and I am sure some will be posting here as well. When I confronted Shelly with the fact that their are other dealers that can back up my caims that he did sell his fakes to the public, his response was.......drumroll please.......

SHELLY NOW ADMITS THAT HE DID DO SOME SHOWS BUT THAT WHEN HE SAT UP AT THESE SHOWS HE ONLY SOLD REAL STUFF AND LEFT THE FAKES AT HOME!

My question for the educaed attornies, collectors, prosecutors, et all of this forum: Am I the only person that thinks this excuse is plain laughable? Honestly, does anyone believe that Shelly would have gained a moment of clarity here and decided in the middle of selling fakes and forgeries to suddenly offer only real stuff when he sat up at shows? I honestly want the forums feedback on this and welcome any further explanation from Shelly

3. After denying selling Cal Ripken balls and being confronted with his own printed quotes regarding the sell of Ripken balls, his response was basiclly: Ok, you are right, I did sell Ripken balls but they were real.


I hope everyone now sees what I was expressing these last 48 hours. Shelly seems to have one version while the facts state another and his story evolves daily. Shelly's response to the Operation Bullpen book was that there were mistakes in the book and that the FBI did not have to sign off on this. I reconfirmed yesterday that the book was approved by the FBI. The books author will confirm this. I asked Shelly if the part in the book where he sought out and auditioned Greg Marino to be his forger of choice were accurate and he has not answered me directly as of yet.


Once again, please give me feedback regarding Shelly's calim that he only sold real items at shows. I am not a criminal profiler but it just sounds like more of the same baloney I was fed that day at the National. I think if someone is going to be labeled reformed, their needs to be a 100% honest accountability.

Micah - any word on the receipts you obtained from Shelly when you bought from him or from the FBI when you turned over your items to them?
You seem to be avoiding that issue in every post you have made.
Do these documents exist or not??
You would have a lot more credibility if you could produce those documents.
Right now it's he said - he said. Let us see some evidence of your claims of purchasing from Shelly and turning over your items to the FBI.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

There is no he said, she said here. I turned these items over to the FBI. My employeer and I was contacted by them in the form of a letter originally because we bought items from a company called Overtime Prowear. Our name was on their list of buyers they obtained from Overtime Prowears records. This led to me turning over the other items from the other named sellers, Shelly and Stans Sports. I may have the originall letter from 2000 but not sure. I can bring a lot of other collectors to this forum that turned over items that never received a return or a single letter or response. How do you say "he said she said" when I am referencing a published book that was approved by the FBI?

Micah - you still have not provided receipts to substantiate your claims.
A receipt for your purchase and a receipt from the FBI to establish that you did give them the questionable items.
Simple questions - Did you get receipts when buying these items? Did you get receipts from the FBI when you turned them over? If so, lets see them.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

Yes, any paperwork we had 8 years ago was turned over to the FBI with the items. Any coa or receipt we had went there. Can I make it any clearer?.

How about the receipt from the FBI when you turned over everything to them? From what I understand, and correct me if I am wrong, that is standard FBI procedure.
And I still don't understand how you claim the FBI approves publication of a book. This is still the United States of America with a Constitution. FBI approval, possibly with the exception of quotes from the agents, is not necessary in this country. We are still a democracy, not a Fascist state.
If the books author did get FBI approval of the book, I would love to see his e mail to you about that.

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

We never receieved anything fromm them except for the original letter which already had the inventory in the letter. It amazed me that they had the record of every item we bought. My employeer may need to chime in here. He was the one who had the inital contact. I will give him a call and see if he received anything besides the original letter. I know I personally did not. I think the whole organized refund program came after Stan pled down. That did not start until 2004. Early on, the FBI was very upfront about the procedure. They explained that by turning the items over we were not guaranteed that we would get them back or receieve a refund. We understood this from the beginning. A lot of buyes never received restitutution. Do you think you can get Shelly to come on here and provide the buyers he refunded? Also, can you get him to confirm or deny that he did audition Greg Marino as the FBI approved published book states? Any help would be appreciated.

I think that Shelly has admitted that he did audition Greg Marino. As far as I know, he has not denied that.
And please, I would love to see the e mail from the author stating that the FBI approved the book. I read the book, I still have the book and I don't see anything on the cover that says approved by the FBI and I don't remember reading any such thing when I did read the book.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

Call the author of the book, it is his claim. I think, not certain, but am quite sure that it is even stated in the book. I gave my copy away after reading it but just ordered another through Amazon yesterday. When I get it in hand this week, I will be posting some information from the book. Believe me, the FBI can certainly stop publication of a book if they think they are being sourced and it is inaccurate. It happened with the original version of the outed CIA opertaive, Valery Plamme (sp.?) book

I believe the Valerie Plame book was redacted by the CIA. I don't know if the FBI had anything to do with that book. And she was a CIA agent, an entirely different situation. They can pre approve anything an agent writes, but Mr Nelson is certainly not an FBI agent, FBI pre approval was not necessary.
Here is a quote from one of your prior posts:
"I reconfirmed yesterday that the book was approved by the FBI. The books author will confirm this."
Did you contact the books author for this confirmation?
Phone? E mail?
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss
--
edited for typo

Shelly neve admitted it to me and the word "audition" has never been quoted by Shelly except in the book. The version I received from him at the National, the version I believed for a while, was completely different than what is portrayed in the book. Until the book came out, Shelly explained in SCD he was simply caught up in the process and couldn't compete at the shows any longer with sellers selling bad items. I guess I can compare it like this: Someone gets caught snorting coke. They explain that they were in a room at a party and it was offered to them and before they knew it, they were caught up in a bad decison they regrettted. Then you find out the culprit actually called a drug dealer, drove acorss town and sought the drug out himself. You have a little less sympathy on the last version. Understood? Maybe thats a bad analogy. Do you have an knowledge of Shelly returning money to duped buyers?

I initially confirmed by phone and reconfirmed through my employeer who also spoke with the author over a year ago. I am fairly certain this claim is in the book itself. Lets sit tight and I will report when the book comes in this week. Are you the Simon that did the cool sports art prints in the 80's?

No I am not the Simon that did sports prints in the 1980s.
I can barely draw a straight line, so my art would not bring very much $$.
I am in the autograph business and have been for a long time.
---

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

Richard-Do you personally believe Shelly's claim that he only would sell real items at the shows?

According to my understanding Shelly was an honest seller at shows, until he could not do much business due to the crooks. He got frustrated by all the crooks undercutting his business, so that is why he started to sell bogus items. I have worked with Shelly in the past, as stated in a prior post and I think he is now an honest guy and has worked hard to try and clean up much of the crap that goes on in this business.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

Heading out for my weekly penance and then to friends for the big game pre party. I will respond to anything after the gane late tonigt or early tomorow.

I will say this one more time. What ever anyone thinks of me, liar, cheat, scumbag. It has nothing to do with what the thread was all about. I am answering Morales challenge as to his what he said about the HBO show.
Micha can write and say what ever he wants. I really don't care. If I said black he would say white.

I can completely understand that Micah is frustrated. He was sold a bunch of crap and never got compensated for it. However the person involved in the crime did the time that was given him and has come here to try and get STAT to answer for the crap they are pumping in to the autograph hobby. Micah has completely derailed this post when he should have either started his own post or taken it to email. Not that I think STAT has the courage to answer to these questions, but the more pressure put on them the better.

Richard:
From a December 27, 2006 article in The Anderson Valley Post:

Back in 2001, Da Babe traveled to Hawaii for Krause’s annual trade conference where “Operation Bullpen” was a main topic.

Tim Fitzsimmons, the FBI agent in charge of the operation, and Phil Halpern, the assistant U.S. attorney who prosecuted the cases, were featured speakers. They also sat down with me for interviews.

Reading Nelson’s book reminded me of just how widespread the forgeries were and possibly still are. We’re talking thousands and thousands of consumers defrauded to the tune of millions and millions of dollars.

In the end, 63 people were arrested and prosecuted. Those 63 folks operated 15 rings—with a forger at the center of each of those enterprises.

Investigators parlayed an undercover operative’s work, a wire tap and a key player agreeing to cooperate with them to bring down the forgery rings.

After breezing through Nelson’s book, I touched base with Fitzsimmons and Halpern to see if the book was accurate and how they felt about the whole process.

FITSIMMONS SAID HE WORKED WITH NELSON AS THE BOOK WAS DEVELOPED AND IS SATISFIED WITH ITS ACCURACY. Halpern said he has yet to read the book.

As for “Operation Bullpen” and its results, both said they were glad that the cases focused attention on the major problem of forgery.

“I am extremely pleased we were able to highlight to the public the dangers of buying memorabilia,” Halpern said.

Micah - an FBI agent who cooperated with an author on a book is a lot different than stating that the FBI approved the book. If the FBI has to approve books we may as well tear up the Constitution, and let the redcoats come back.
Tim Fitzsimmons was the major player for the government in Operation Bullpen, how could he not have cooperated with the author of the book.
I think we should agree to disagree and end this part of the thread. You have your opinion, I have mine, neither of us is going to change.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

Richard-yep, . we are splitting hairs here. The main question for me: Is the book accurate? It appears, sadly, to be true in all aspects. When I asked Shelly four seperate times if it were true regarding the authors version of him auditioning forgers, twice on here and twice in emails, I got the run around and mentions of inaccuracies with the book. I spoke with the author by phone today again. He stands by everyhing in the book and would love to hear from anyone regarding innacuracies. He did state to me that their was no "Official Approval" from the FBI before it could go to printing but that the agent Fitzsimmons worked with him with every aspect of the book and personally approved it all. He also agreed that any interview with the FBI for the book would have approval before printing. Kevin is a serious author and the last thing he would want to do is print a bunch of rumors. Anyone can order his book online. He will even sign the book. And yes, the signature will be authentic!

My mother told me at a very young age "Your reputation is everything"

While I have made my share of mistakes one thing I have always tried to do in this business, be it cards, autographs, or anything i sold as a collectable was to be honest in the description and never shady in any aspect of this business.

Everyone is entitled to a second chance, lets just hope that when given that second chance the person does indeed take advantage of it and not do whatever got them into trouble again.


Yes, it sucks not being able to get your money back. The courts for some reason did not think that was important.

JMHO

Steve

Steve, the FBI set up a special program for people that wanted their money back. If Micha sent golf balls he bought from Stan's he was sent his money. If he sent the baseballs that he said I sold him I would get a letter from the probation officer and I would have refunded his money.
The one thing I don't understand in all of this is the fact that he had my phone number and address because it was on my certs. In an e mail he sent to me he stated that he called me on the phone. Why has it taken him eight years to tell me I sold him two items. He has asked for me to prove that I paid everyone back. I just got off the phone with Tim Fitzsimmons who said he would be happy to take Micha's call. He will attest to the fact that to the best of his knowledge I paid everyone back. He will also tell Micha that if sent any items from me tothe FBI I would be told to send him his refund. Tim can be reached at 1-520-623-4306.I also emailed Micha my number and asked to call. No reply.
I really think it is time for us to go back to what this thread was about. Morales and Stat Authenitics. If you think that I hurt the hobby please look at the joke that is the latest CC auction.

I am not taking sides on this but as far as I can tell you have made every attempt to appease each and every person that was defrauded, even getting the FBI agent involved again. I hope the other parties are as willing to answer the questions you have posed. best regards

Maybe Micah should just send these autographs to Coaches Corner. They may be out of business someday and there will be no where to sell fake autos?

I'm the former employer refereed to in Micah's post. I was present when Micah spoke to Jaffe in 2003 in Atlantic City. It was an unmemorable event. I see why Micah thinks he wasn't shot straight that day. It was Bill Flemming from Tracer code who mostly spoke. It was Bill Flemming who gave the rosy picture of Shelly, not Shelly himself. Shelly was busy with multiple conversations at the booth. Jafee never corrected Bill on any of the rosy scenarios of Shelly's past and may not have heard them.

I personally handled the return of merchandise discussed here in either March or April of 2000 to the San Diego office of the FBI. Micah's memory and account of these events are correct.

I've known Shelly for several years. I've had many phone conversations with Shelly.

Micah is one of the most honest people I know.
I believe Shelly to be doing his best to spread good will in the autograph world.

Since I was referenced in this post and know both parties, I called Shelly today. After speaking with Shelly, he recalls our conversation in Atlantic City. After recalling the talk, Shelly offered to pay Micah for the two items in question. You can't ask for anything better than that. End of story.

I agree with John that what he said is fact.

I want to thank John for getting involved and coming on the forum to back up my claims...he didnt have to. I also want to thank Shelly for the offer to refund my money. The FBI was given the items 8 years ago so I will decline but appreicate it immensely. My items were given back 4 years before the refund program began. Had I known then what I know now, I would have waited the 4 years before sending my items to them. Other dealers could say the same thing. Just the fact that Shelly has acknowledged the conversation in AC and has offered the refund satisfies me. Thank you Shelly and thank you John. Shelly and I will agree to disagree on other issues and let bygones be bygones.

Sounds like a plan.


Steve

Glad to see that this matter is being settled, thank you Shelly, thank you Micah, thank you John.
Let's get this thread back to where it belongs.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

Now that everything is worked out between the parties dominating this thread, it looks like STAT isn't interested in partaking in this thread to explain anything and we will have to await for Malaysia to get back from Morales.

I was poking around the site (www.myccsa.com to check out the scans) and found a few interesting thinngs.

Lot #1 Jack Chesbro single-signed "Stat Authentic" baseball.

CCSA: This near impossible to find, HOF worthy ball comes already pre-certified and approved as authentic by the team at Stat Authentic and book value approaches $40,000. It is a dark brown ball, vintage look and comes black ink, side panel signed by the long deceased HOF'er. Ball itself is a dark 2 while the signature stands out against the dark background, can be seen and read with ease and grades an honest 4 I'd say. You'll never find another one this nice and as always, we keep the minimum low enough so everyone can have a chance to bid.

Comment: The item they say is valued at $40,000 and that is probably a tad low as this would be the only know example of Chesbro on ball form outside of a handful Pirates reunion balls. What does "pre-certify" mean exactly?

CCSA Prices Realized: This ball sold in $2,095.

Lot #3 Cap Anson Autographed Stat Authentic Certified Baseball.

CCSA: WOW! This unmarked, slightly reduced-size baseball has red laces and shows lots of wear and handling. It comes signed on the left-side of the sweet spot by this much sought-after baseball HOF legend. The signature is in black ink and "A.C. Anson" style. The signature shows off nicely and grades a 6-6.5 overall! Fully certified by the expert authentication team at STAT AUTHENTIC and book value is over $50,000.

Comment: Wow! December 2006, Mastro Auctions sold what Mastro considered to be the "only" single signed Anson baseball. It commanded $73,424. The signature was not as nice as this CCSA offering.

CCSA Prices Realized: This ball sold for $3,356.

Lot #7 Dan Brouthers single-signed "Stat Authentic" baseball.

CCSA: This impossible to find ball is heavily used and soiled and book valued at $30,000. To my best recollection, we have never seen one of these balls for sale before and what a super Cooperstown investment chance. It is a deep brown soiled and game used ball, comes black ink, side panel signed by the long deceased HOF pioneer and is pre-certified for your convenience by Stat Authentic. Ball itself is a 2 while the sought after signature is a legible 4 and can be read from 7 feet away with ease.

Comment: $30,000 is WAY low. This again would be the only known example of his signature on a baseball. Another auction could easily get twice that or even more.

CCSA Prices Realized: This ball sold for $ 2,084

Lot #7: Charles Comiskey single-signed "Stat Authentic" baseball.

CCSA: This must have "Black Sox" offering comes from the tight wad, HOF owner and books near $20,000. It is a deep brown ball, comes black ink, side panel signed by "Commie" and can be seen from 7 feet away with ease. Ball itself is a heavily used and soiled 2, while the sought after, scarce signature grades a 3.5 or better. Nice display ball, already certified as real by Jeff and Ted over at Stat Authentic and with our always low asking price apparent.

CCSA Prices Realized: This ball sold for $1,542.

In Closing:

So let's use Coach's Corners estimates.

$140,000 worth of vintage, "impossible to find", "one of a kind rarities" for $9,000!

All authenticated by the fine folks at STAT.

DJ

but I think that is the third Chesboro ball they've offered recently. I'd never bid there or buy an item certified by STAT.

What Coaches Corner is doing in the minds of just about everyone is criminal.However,equaliy reprehensable,is the conduct of SCD who gives them an avenue to sell this swill.SCD should stand next to Coaches Corner in a court of law WHEN the FBI gets around(way too long now)to rounding up these theives.SCD can no longer turn a blind eye to their biggest ad generator.Ignorance is no excuse.This has conspiracy written all over it.SCD has been reduced to a rag now but the editor should either close the paper down,go to a monthly,or cut this crap out before it is too late.

The single signed balls listed in the post above that were "sold" just dont exist.

I haven't read all the posts in this thread so it's possible the following point has already been made.

In the examples DJ cites, what surprises me is not that those items didn't sell for anywhere near $140k but that they sold for as much as $9k (assuming they in fact sold). If the signatures are genuine then $140k (or some correspondingly high number) is fair market value. If the signatures are not genuine, then the items are worth the value of the baseballs, perhaps discounted somewhat because they have been further degraded by bogus signatures. This value is probably a few dollars per ball, or less than $100 collectively. So why then would people bid even as much as $9k? Do they really think there is ANY chance the signatures are genuine and maybe it's worth rolling the dice and spending a few thousand dollars? Talk about a leap of faith?!

I'm curious to get feedback from the autograph authorities of the board because I'm not one. If the Mastro Anson ball was in Coaches Corner and it did not have PSA or JSA but was the same ball Mastro sold, would anyone have bid? If the Coaches Corner ball was in Mastro and had PSA and JSA but was the same ball Coaches Corner sold, would it have pulled the same number? I'm curious to what degree you guys feel the buyers in the big auction houses are buying the ball or the LOA? I hope this isn't a stupid question.

Actually it is a very good question, I too would like to hear this answer.


Steve

Interesting questions. I don't profess to be an autograph expert so my thoughts will be based on a collector's perspective.

"If the Mastro Anson ball was in Coaches Corner and it did not have PSA or JSA but was the same ball Mastro sold, would anyone have bid?" -- Without provenance and/or a LOA from a respected authority, I don't believe the ball would have sold well in ANY auction, much less one with a questionable reputation.

"If the Coaches Corner ball was in Mastro and had PSA and JSA but was the same ball Coaches Corner sold, would it have pulled the same number?" -- Assuming there was nothing about the ball that violated the "raise red flags from visual inspection test" (e.g., a 19th century jersey that looks like it just came off Modell's shelf), then yes, if it had comparable provenance/LOA to the other Anson ball Mastro sold and was in comparable condition, I believe it would have fetched a similar number to the price Mastro realized for that other ball.

The value is based primarily on the trust of those issuing the baseball. It's not about "what the signature" looks like anymore, but where does it come from and who authenticated the ball. IMO. Mastro "claims" that this is the only known baseball, but how are we to know that this is in fact an honest accessment to the quantity of balls out there? The fact that it was Mastro and that JSA and/or PSA/DNA says it's good, automatically puts in the minds of the general public that it is in fact good which is a naive system of thought, but the only one we have.

That SAME ball from Mastro in CCSA would bring typical CCSA numbers simply based on reputation. After all, CCSA has a revolving door of rarities, thirteen times a year that sell for pennies on the dollar. There are so many collecting players out there with big bucks looking to buy and sell rarities and Coach's even last month, had cut signatures of John Clarkson, Buck Ewing, Oscar Charleston, Josh Gibson and why are great dealers like Kevin Keating staying away from these when they could easily get 10x-12x of what the final price Coach price was? Why doesn't Mastro (or the consignors) buy up the Coach inventory every month and put it in their auctions?

People pay these prices because they want to truly believe that they are getting a bargain. It's the same reason people pay $5,000 for a T206 Wagner.

I noted this before and the true villain here is Sports Collectors Digest and it's wonderful to see the hobby turn their back on what was once prominent and respectful voice.

Bob

I went back to the CCSA site to check something out and their new auction is up already. Among
the highlights: Josh Gibson signed pants (I think the last pair sold for under $200), 1939 Induction Baseball, Albert Einstein autographed baseball (they have sold a few of these in the past), Ed Cicotte signed bat, Jimmy Collins signed baseball, Chief Bender signed bat...

And why are great dealers like Kevin Keating, Jim Stinson, Richard Simon (hope nobody minds that I added my name to the great dealers list ),Rich Albersheim, Ron Gordon, Bill Corcoran and Phil Marx staying away from these when they could easily get 10x-12x of what the final price Coach price was?
I would love to see CC come on this thread and answer some of these questions.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

A few posts above, Corey had asked if people were willing to spend 1/10 hoping for a leap of faith. I would like to respond as a person who actually bought some items. I think it is actually a lack of information. I first stumbled across their auctions when I received a monthly flyer in the mail. Not being an autograph buyer, I just assumed that if they had a COA that were genuine. Luckily I found this forum and learned that this is not case. But that knowledge came a year to late and about $1,000 worth of bogus items. I learned an expensive but valuable lesson. I would also like to comment on Stat Authentic. I actually emailed both individuals (Ted Taylor and Jeff Stevens, they both claimed that the items were authentic in their "opinion". That is how they get around things, they state that it is their opinion that the items are authentic. The one gentleman (the one that used to work at the Babe Ruth Museum) was very nice and was willing to try and help. He even was willing to look at the items I had purchased without COA's and check them for me. The other gemntleman was angry (not at me) but at everyone that bad mouthed CC or Stat and even talked about filing libel suits. Obviously will never happen. Just thought I would give you some insite on why some people may be buying items. They just may not know.

I can tell one thing about CC. When they have an item from Psa,Jsa and other top authenticators the item goes for more than three times the amount than a similar item authenticated by Morales or STAT. I do hope Morales and STAT have the balls to come on this site and tell us just how they authenticate there items.

Why don't we pitch in and place a full page ad in SCD touting the knowledge of this board? We don't even need to mention specific issues. People will be curious enough to check it out, and can read some of the threads for themselves.

Maybe there is room on the home page for a small counter box for important threads that a new visitor could click on, such as this thread.

It would be a small investment if we each kicked in 3 or 5 or 10 dollars each. The ad copy wouldn't take that long to write, and Leon could have final approval, assuming that he would want to do this at all (hi Leon). Nothing specific would need to be mentioned, just the general topics of discussion, free to join, monthly contests and prizes, already has major auction houses that contribute not just with ads, but with participation in the threads as well.

If SCD rejected the ad, we know where they stand.

If they accept it,, and just a few people came over and read about STAT, opinions on grading companies, etc., it could be enough to change the way some things are done.

At the very least, maybe some of the new blood could add to the knowledge of this board, or maybe it will bring a collection of the woodwork. Who knows? At least it is a tangible action, with a low investment, that could produce some results.

A lot of if's, but the outcome could tell us where the true collector really stands in this hobby/business, for a minimal investment.

It's always been my belief that the truth is a valid defense against a libel suit. That might be the reason we don't see responses from the associated parties and also the reason I doubt there would be a lawsuit, in my opinion.......regards

I agree with Dan, that the majority of Coach's Corner Bidders are just uneducated and don't know a real autograph from a fake. They see these items featured in a major publication, and make the assumption that they must be authentic. They are "trusting souls" and simply believe what they WANT to believe. It is hard to envision so many people still falling into this category, but many just don't devote the time to educate themselves.

But I believe there are 3 other contingents of bidders as well...

A nominal percentage of these bidders probably think they are getting a "steal" and that they are turned on to this rather "obscure" auction house in which they can get much better deals than through the giant, overly publized Mastros, Lelands and REAs of the world. There is an assumption of exclusivity and a "greed factor" among this group.

Collectors new to the hobby are more likely to bid in a CC Auction. They have not yet figured out that STAT is a sham. I have heard many stories from seasoned collectors, and how they got burned early in their collecting "careers". I think most of us have had similar learning experiences early-on.

Finally, I know there are some who are purchasing these, knowing they are bad, and with the intention of re-selling them. These people have ways to peddle these pieces, and get big money in return. I recently took a trip to Las Vegas, and saw dozens of bogus pieces in a "Field of Dreams" type store on the strip. These autographs were nearly identical to the CC offerings, and were selling at HUGE prices. These may have even originated from Coach's Corner.... not even close to appearing authentic.

Mark/Dan

What you say does make sense -- that the majority of purchasers are simply uneducated collectors who are unduly influenced by CC's advertising in a major hobby publication. These people I suppose believe no reputable major hobby publication would accept advertising from known unscrupulous auction houses. And that coupled with the LOAs lead them to believe not so much that they are getting a bargain but in fact that the selling prices reflect fair market value.

So then a critical component to the "success" of CC's business model is (besides the LOAs) SCD advertising.

My guess is that at this point there will not be responses from the mentioned companies. If I were in their shoes, I wouldn't respond myself. They probably read this and think "This is obviously not my target market on net54" If they were in a forum of 50/50 supporters and non-supporters, I would guess a response would be necessary to keep the 50% of their clients. With a 0% client base here, not a chance. Maybe if they plead their case hard enough they would win over one, two bidders??? Doubtful. Same reason SCP didn't respond when called out on the panorama. Same reason Bushing didn't respond during the Joe D. streak bat. Same reason Memory Lane Inc. didn't respond many times. I could go on and on. All of the just named dealers probably are a little too smart to not pick their battles wisely.

Corey...

That's absolutely correct! The SCD component is a huge part of this. The fact that prospective bidders see these pieces in what they believe to be a reputable publication serves to "validate" these items.

There have been many previous threads (some on the Memorabilia side) suggesting that SCD drop Coach's Corner like a bad habit. SCD must really be in quandary, as Coach's Corner is their biggest advertiser. Coach's Corner and Mr. Mint generate most of the revenue that currently keeps SCD afloat. Pretty pathetic, and certainly not an enviable position to be in...

For the record Dave Bushing did respond to the Joe D Streak Bat controversy.

"It's always been my belief that the truth is a valid defense against a libel suit. That might be the reason we don't see responses from the associated parties and also the reason I doubt there would be a lawsuit, in my opinion.......regards"

Leon mentioned a lawsuit in his post on this thread.
A lawsuit would open up all parties involved in the discovery process. All information about their business practices would be open to scrutiny.
Think they want to do that?? .



I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

What would you do if you bought an item from CC and STAT authenicated it ? I did this with a Beatles album signed by all four ? It also had 2 other LOA. First, are all their items fakes? What percentage, and what is this based on ?

Should I :
1) Send back to Coaches and have them put up for auction again and get some money back on the deal ? Cover some loses. 2) Send to another service to see if it is real ( PSA, etc) ? Who would you send it to for the best expert "opinion" ? This would cost another few hundred dollars. 3) Keep it ,learn my lesson and impress my friends thinking it is real. I really need to know what to do with this item. Thanks Mike ( long time card collector, auto novice)and never again unless in person !

Great question Mike. I would like to hear board opinion if they sell any real autos or are all fake? If the Beatles album is certed by STAT, there is no chance PSA will cert it. Doesn't matter if its real or not. I have never heard of PSA certing a STAT item. I could be wrong but never seen or heard of this happening.

I can tell you right now. If you have had it more than 28 days they will refuse to take it back. I will also tell you if has been authenticated by STAT you can bet its not good. I am interested in who the other coa's are from. Don't waste your money getting them fully authenticated.If you want to do it on the cheap put the item up on Ebay and then get a quick opinion from psa for eight dollars.

Mike-

I bought a signed Beatles album from Forever L*****S, an e bay autograph dealer lady that used Morales and Frangiapiani for forensic expertise when I was green about rock and roll autographs, they had over 1000+ feedback, all positives.

Every album I bought was deemed fake by Larry Rosenbloom, UACC, PSA/DNA and James Spence, since not one of these guys knew each other graded the item, all said they looked like forgeries, and all said they were fakes. I also sent it to Mastro who consulted Frank C., NJ, a well known autograph expert regarding Beatles memorabilia and he deemed it fake also.

The chances of getting a REAL signed rare album from Coaches Corner with a "forensic expert COA endorsement" by C Morales or D. Frangiapanni is very small. You can send the item to Mastro auctions, if it is real, they can get you thousands for it, otherwise they will return it. It cost me a thousand dollars to get 4 different people, all "experts" and all said it was fake. Signed rock and roll memorabilia is 90% FAKE since most groups were too busy or stoned in the 60's and 70's to sign these items and there are so many coming out of California that look good but are not.

...

There are currently six complete signed Beatles items in CCSA's latest auction with one partial.

Richard and Jodi. How many Josh Gibson autographs have you sold, seen or believe to exist?

They have one every month...cuts, balls, bats, pants. I can't remember outside of the signed photo that was discovered and sold for $75K and a recent document, any other auction houses EVER selling one.

DJ

Oh, in regards to "back to card speak", Coach's Corner has a 9.5 graded PRO Ty Cobb T206 with the following description:

The PSA online guide shows NONE graded higher than an 8, and their price guide says the value is $45,000+ for one graded a Mint 9, and this beauty is GRADED HIGHER. My estimate on value is $100,000 or more, as this MUST be the HIGHEST GRADED card known to exist.

http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=78798

DJ
mastro sold a team ball with gibson. I was the consignor. It was new to the industry. A find in New York. Mid grade signatures. Sold right at 18,000 before the vig. I may be off a grand, it was 2-3 years ago.

Here is my favorite STAT piece for the evening.http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=77830
STAT please respond.

Heroes of the Hobby!!!

http://www.myccsa.com/Prohibited.aspx

When will Stew P. Dasso be making an appearance on that list?

If Coach's Corner actually believed their own Anson ball (or Chesbro ball, etc.) was authentic, they would be fools not to buy it outright for twice the auction price and consign it to Mastro. They know exactly what they are doing.

John,

I remember a multi-signed ball for auction about that time. Was it single signed? I'm having trouble remembering this item and way too lazy to go throw a tower of catalogs.

Why is that your favorite Shel? Those are a dime a dozen.

DJ

DJ, the reason I picked this one is that everyone can look at it and know just how bad it is. This is one of the worst forgeries I have ever seen. I just want STAT or Morales and CC to come on here and defend the garbage that they sell and authenticate. This one is so bad and the nice thing is that most of the players are alive and can testify to the fact the ball is garbage.

The grand total of the legitimate Josh Gibson autographs I have seen/sold is zero.
How lucky can one seller be to have a constant supply of them?? .
Guess those private signing items from 1946 are finally starting to show up in the market .
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

DJ-it was not a single. It was a team ball. Original owner all these years.

Richard-You have never seen a real Gibson single or Gibson in any form?

Ok so I have read thru this thread and being an autograph novice, the one thing that hits me is why has the FBI or anyone else not done anything? It seems like it would be pretty easy to prove these auctions are fake so why has it not happened?

By employing two Companies that don't know what there doing. SCD told CC that to advertise in there paper they must have certain items authenticated. CC corner will say to the FBI look I went out of our way to have these pieces authenticated as per SCD. The authenticators will tell the FBI it only our opinion and nothing but nothing can be done. Donald Farngiapni authenticated over 5 thousand items none of them where authentic.The FBI could do nothing because it was his opinion.

REA in 2006 sold an autographed Josh Gibson postcard.

Shelly - it seems that SCD, Coaches Corner & STAT all have
a bye based on your scenerio. So if all still thrive in
business it will slowly kill the autograph market.
Its becoming a joke in this industry.

That is why I started this thread, in hopes that they would have the balls to come on here and defend their skills. This is a total scam and SCD knows it. Rocky quit the sports side of Krause just for that reason.

This all seems a little too cozy to me -- the notion that Coaches Corner can shield themselves from criminal or civil actions by saying they are relying on LOAs from an authentication service. Certainly from the civil perspective, it seems to me that if they have marquee items that are so rare that as a practical matter they never come up for sale (outside CC auctions) routinely selling for five to ten cents on the dollar, that they are being put on notice that the market doesn't believe the signatures are genuine, thereby imposing a duty on CC to get a second opinion from a reputable authority. If they do not or if they do and the opinion comes in that the signatures are bogus, and CC sells then anyway then I would think they would be very vulnerable to an action for fraud. Yes they will play the stupidity defense -- "how were we to know, we only relied on the LOA" -- but I think the law would impute fraudulent intent under the reasonable person standard. A criminal action would be more difficult because here the stupidity defense can come into play, but even with that I think it possible they might have a hard time persuading a trier of fact that they are really that stupid.

I am not above helping if I can...Maybe we we need to see what a 1 page ad would cost in SCD? Could be interesting. If I ever were to collect autographs they would be on official documents only or with impeccable provenance that didn't require a leap of faith the size of the Grand Canyon.....best regards (I would also add this thread to our archives if need be)....regards

Leon, I will bet you a dime to a dollar that SCD would turn down the add.

I have actually held three truly legitimate Gibsons in my hands, and know of a small handful of others. Two were Puerto Rican League contracts, one was the postcard photo which has been sold by both REA and Mastro over the last few years. There is something really special about being that close to an in-demand autograph of such rarity. Charleston is actually tougher than Gibson--I think he's undervalued, even though prices are high.

If nothing can be done to CC or SCD for perpetuating this scam then surely something can be done to the person forging these signatures. Forgery is a crime. Finding CC's supply line is the key to putting an end to it. That shouldn't be too hard. Just ask CC where they're getting all this stuff.

I think CC gets a lot of their stuff from previous winning bids. My opinion ! The winner finds out it may be fake or no one else will say it's real and so the item is sent back to be auctioned again. The original winner probably didn't get a refund, but sending it back to be consigned you can cover some of your losses.

Richard,

Were you saying you've never seen a real Gibson single or Gibson in any form?

Regards,

John

John - I made my answer pretty clear. There are very few Gibsons in the hobby and I don't recall ever having one in my hands.
I am not CC.

Richard
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

Mike, I am sure that might be true with some of the items but I have seen the same forger doing the same people over and over again one different items. It looks like there are two people that are doing the forgery. I have asked Richard as well as three other people I trust. They feel the same way as I do, that this is the work of two people and maybe a third on certain items.

Richard,

The reason I asked was that I owned a Gibson signature that was certed when the PSA/DNA team was working (You, Spence, Stinson, others) I had a high comfort level knowing the "team" had certed it. When you said you had never seen a real on, I was puzzled, a little worried about that one.

John - the initial PSA team consisted of four people - Jim Spence, Jim Stinson, Ron Gordon and myself. Initially all four of us went out to PSA offices in California on a monthly basis and examined submissions.
Then PSA decided to have three of us come to California every month and rotated us into a three man working team.
It is possible that a Gibson was examined by the team when I was rotated out and was not there.
It is possible that I did see it when I was there but I just don't remember it. Sorry to have worried you.

--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

Richard-,
Of all the authentication companies that have come and gone, I think the PSA/DNA "team" was the best. Its hard to have 4 experts not get it right. Any chance that concept will come around again?

I would doubt it very much. We worked very well together, we enjoyed the work and I felt we did a great job. But the logistics made things difficult and scheduling and flying four guys in from all different parts of the country made it difficult.
If you can come up with 2/3 other guys from the Northeast and find a company to start this up, I am in.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

<<By employing two Companies that don't know what there doing. SCD told CC that to advertise in there paper they must have certain items authenticated. CC corner will say to the FBI look I went out of our way to have these pieces authenticated as per SCD. The authenticators will tell the FBI it only our opinion and nothing but nothing can be done. Donald Farngiapni authenticated over 5 thousand items none of them where authentic.The FBI could do nothing because it was his opinion.>>

The stuff they are getting is not coming from 1000 different random consignors. That is where the buck has to stop eventually. If Law Enforement ever looks into it, SCD, CCA, and the authenticator can all pass the buck, but eventually the source is going to have to explain where his stuff is coming from.

Still, I would wager LE isn't going to give everyone a free pass. There has to be a fiduciary public trust that all of them are violating. Maybe it would be hard to prove a criminal case, but I think a civil case would be a slam dunk.

Getting back to Beatles albums...

They're something far more ominous going on behind the scenes.

Frank Caiazzo is one of the most respected authenticators of Beatles material in the business. Beatles is all he does. He's been at it for 20+ years and has consulted for Christies, Bonhams, and hundreds of collectors and dealers worldwide. Today, If you "google" his name, you'll find hundreds of references describing his expertise, etc.

There's a Florida company that sells, among other things, signed rock memorabilia. A lot of it, for a lot of money, in five galleries in southern Florida. And who do they employ to authenticate their material? Christopher Morales, that's who.

It seems that this company is now SUING Caiazzo for pronouncing one of their signed Beatles albums a forgery. Think about that. You'll see that lawsuit at the same time you "google" Caiazzo's name. Why is someone paying a great deal of money to sue Caiazzo, and paying to maintain a website -- to protect Mr. Morales' reputation. Is there some reason they don't, perhaps, want to get another opinion on the "authenticated" goods they sell?

One more point you folks may have failed to consider. THE VAST AMOUNT OF BOGUS MATERIAL COMING ON THE MARKET IS DEVALUING THE AUTHENTIC, LEGITIMATE MATERIAL YOU NOW OWN! If there are 100 real Mantle signed bats and 10,000 fake signed bats, eventually the perceived market will be that there's 10,100 signed bats. You lose, forgers win.

Love your web site.(theyneedglasses.com) I know that it sounds bad that Caiazzio is being sued, but discovery procedures could lead to finding out who the gallery's supplier is. I would bet that when push comes to shove that they will back out. The same thing holds true with CC.

To they need glasses - do you know Frank Caizzo? Tell him that we can start a defense fund for him in this action. If this suit advances the plaintiff will have to reveal his sources for all his Beatles items.

edited to add: apparently a defense fund has already been started.

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

I wonder if there is an attorney on this site that can help us in a class action suite against CC. This might just put them out of business. If it doesn't put them out of business, it sure would make them produce the records of who supplies them with this crap..

As we first mentioned, there are tens of thousands of signed Rock N Roll Memorabilia Albums and Photos(we had bought some) that are blatant mass produced fakes.

We have been fortunate to see some vintage signed beatles memorabilia with multiple COA's including Frank C. Once you see the copies side by side, you can distinguish the real from the fake as long as the period signed is similar. Lennon's signature and Ringo's changed drastically over time but there is no doubt that the pieces that are forensically authenticated by above mentioned, differ and could possibly be deliberate and decently created for public sale.

If you own a signed album with "sharpee" or multi colored (pen and color ink)signatures of Hendrix, Lynryd Skynryd, Doors, Joplin etc., plus the Beatles, good chance that these are fake. The only real way you can get a good bearing is to send the item to three or four different "experts" and if ALL agree it is no good, the percentages are they are not.

that I didn't get in person - I would have a LOT of trouble sleeping at night. It appears the leap of faith can be over a vast divide. Sometimes I can't identify my own signature other than to say when one isn't mine. Of course I'm old and addled now.... I've been into one of those shops here in Florida - in Delray. When my friend Scott and I walked into the store - Scott saw something he liked - I asked about the authentications. I had found this board just a few months before and had read the threads related to the above people. I was told they were all done by C. Moralas. When I asked about his association with the names of Frangipanni and whomever - I was given an explination of his work and credentials and referred to his website. They had MANY pieces all elaborately framed. The prices on the autos were all quite stiff and so I imagined they COULD be real as there was an appropriate mark-up for having to procure the items if they were real. The problem was the quantity of material on such item specific mediums (albums from the '60s and such) that they had in stock (and presumably all their other outlets as well) as well as the different categories of autographs (rock, presidents, sports, etc.) and all authenticated by a SINGLE PERSON. Wow. Mr. Moralas must be quite good - in fact the best - forensic examiner to ever live. In any event - I was surprised that my friend wanted to pull the trigger and buy whatever auto it was he wanted. I suggested it was imprudent and related a little of what I remembered from the threads and common sense. Maybe the stuff is real. Maybe some of it is. Maybe none of it is. Educated people apply a standard to much of what they do. Sometimes that gets lost in the moment. Stores like this are geared to the casual collector and impulse buyer who in all likelyhood is not an expert in a particular autograph. They have heard a certificate of authenticity is a good idea. They haven't heard that it's pretty much meaningless unless it actually comes from an expert - and as casual buyers they might not know an expert from a con man..........

I've always wondered where they obtained all the vintage items that are then forged. I have not read of where the item was an obvious fake because the actual type of baseball, etc., hadn't been used at the time, or even when the player was alive. It's always that the signature is bad.

There are many legitimate and advanced collectors of the type of memorabilia that these signatures are forged on. How does CC, or Morales and Taylor, get their hands on all this vintage stuff? Are they leftovers from some never occurred Scoreboard giveaway, or from some other vast hoard of material?

I mention Scoreboard because they sold signed memorabilia, not for any reason other than that. I am not up on the history of who owned Scoreboard; just felt it was plausible that a hoard of vintage material could have belonged to them, and found it's way into the hands of the forgers.

During Operation Bullpen it was revealed that some of the people involved would scour flea markets, garage sales, antique shows, ebay, etc. They would search for the vintage items, buy them (usually very cheaply) and then use the item to forge an autograph on.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

Regarding sports memorabilia, there is a decent percentage of authentic items in ratio to fakes because almost all baseball players were athletes that signed at games, events, team ball etc...even though there are clearly a lot of garbage especially through e bay offered, at least there is enough good material that the autograph collector who is a sports fan can become more educated.

Rock and movie memorabilia is different, most of the vintage rockers did not sign in public, the limited amount of real material was usually contracts, checks, autograph paper and occasionally pictures, VERY FEW ALBUMS WERE SIGNED outside of the group's inner circle so there should be a strong provenence when buying a signed album of the beatles, grateful dead, elvis, joplin, led zeppelin band, the who, hendrix, lynryd skynrd, doors, buddy holly and other deceased etc of how item was obtained or it probably is fake ..There are tons of these albums signed "forensically authorized", often with the same names attached and possibly done with the best of intentions.

We learned this the hard way and spent thousands of dollars being told my Rolling Stones, Elvis , Beatles, Dead, Hendrix, Doors etc signed album and photo items were all fakes, we did get back some money through legal channels but for the most part, we learned an expensive lesson. In the long run, we are wiser for this and hope that the industry gets rid of the scoundrels that prey upon the unsuspecting.

You can easily buy vintage items like albums, 1st generation photos and buy original fountain pens and inks through antique dealers and a good forger can use these tools to create their "signature art". Then a unscrupulous dealer can concoct a great story, especially hiding behind the cloak of a forensic examiner that is offering an opinion rather than a guarantee.

It is very unlikely that so many of these "great historical rock items" were actually signed by the band members since so few authentic material is actually seen and exemplars are less frequent due to the lifesyle of famous rockers and their frequency of being asked to sign was less than athletes who generally were sober, at least while playing and had more public exposure.

Responding to DD's email (and others) above -

Charles Hamilton was one of the grand-pappies of autograph auctions and authentication. I had the pleasure of knowing him, and reading all of his many autograph books cover to cover. One thing he made clear - he would often be offered autographs of the rarest individuals, or letters with the greatest content, "gussied up" (as he put it) in fancy frames with ornate certificates, great provenance ("I found it in grandma's papers in her attic in Waukegan..."), and sworn to over a stack of Bibles. He told me to forget all the gingerbread and window dressing, to always assume the seller was a liar, and look at the autograph itself. If it was fake, it was fake, and no amount of pretense should sway your opinion.

Other suckers would bite...Hamilton would look at it, declare it a dog, and send the seller packing.

Moral: Any idiot with a good framer, a fancily-wallpapered store or glossy catalog, and and a couple of ornate "o-fish-ee-yal" certificates of authenticity can open shop and declare himself an autograph dealer. Anyone. And only a sucker will buy a silk purse made out of a sow's ear...

And what a cakewalk its been for the bad guys. The forgers slowly perfect their craft and sell their stuff to middlemen. The middlemen have their material, perhaps unwittingly (!), authenticated by whomever, and are issued certificates that state that the authentication is really just their professional "opinion". This opinion is then used by dealers and auction houses to sell these goods, which THEY DO NOT GUARANTEE, because the auction house is admittedly not qualified, and anyway, no one is allowed to doubt the qualifications of the "authenticator" who has already offered his professional "opinion" on the piece you just bought! Then, when you go to resell your bargain prize at Christie's and they tell you it's fake, you're stuck - no returns allowed because your piece was already "authenticated". So tough luck. Own that silk purse with pride! Hang it in the garage.

I like what I see on this thread. I like the fact that the few people that have fought this fight over the years really haven't been alone. Could we get together a group of collectors and/or dealers and devote the time and resources to further pursue cleaning-up this ever-deepening cesspool?

There was only this case of an item with a signature that was produced after the subject passed. This sold for over $3,000.

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum2/showthread.php?t=332

Otherwise, very difficult to prove if Babe and Lou signed that item. Even if they were alive (probably selling for Steiner), would they care? Sports celebrities don't seem miffed about people reproducing their signature. So many sports celebrities can utilize the VeRo program and have a representative of theirs pull forgeries off the site. Cal Ripken and Steve Yzerman's people are relentless about keeping their clients "Ebay clean".

I have also liked what I have seen as well on this thread. Where was this thread and this kind of passion years ago?

The hobby is clearly in a cesspool-state and someone mentioned this before that it destroys the inventory (investment?) of those with honest pieces. It's kind of like having the world's greatest printer and being able to produce PSA10's at will.

Glasses, you mind telling us who you are and who is behind the site? I doubt you will, but I'll take a shot in asking.

What needs to be done is create something, anything that would help this hobby. But what? But how?

DJ

"Could we get together a group of collectors and/or dealers and devote the time and resources to further pursue cleaning-up this ever-deepening cesspool?" quoted from glasses.

Now that you are asking for volunteers to join with you, can we at least find out who you are. I would love to be involved in an organization to fight the good fight, but I would like to know who I am joining.
--


I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

Thanks for the praise, gentlemen - it's much appreciated - but I'm far from done.

At this time, I think I'll have to remain anonymous. I don't believe anyone should show their cards until the time is ripe. I want to leave all future options open, though you can bet I'll be contacting many of you privately to discuss how further action may proceed.

My website, www.theyneedglasses.com, was created on the spur of the moment in reaction to a combination of events that have finally driven me and my supporters to action:

a.) the enormous amount of "bad" material being "authenticated" and peddled in galleries and auctions has grown year by year;

b.) incompetent or negligent authenticators are not being called to task for shoddy authentication practices; and the straw that broke the camel's back;

c.) a legitimate, widely-recognized authenticator is being sued by a gallery owner who took umbrage with his opinion that a Morales-certified Beatles album was not authentic.

So...the vendors of material which may be questionable are now bankrolling efforts to legitimize authenticators whose own credentials may be questionable!

Boys and girls - tapping out angry postings to forums is cheap, easy, and generally safe. Taking real action is another thing altogether. It takes time, legal expertise, and money. Maybe a lot of it. But like the United Way, if spread over a large population, it aint so awful...

First of all, it's vitally important to locate those people who have purchased items with COA's from "questionable" sources and who BASED their purchase on the validity of those COA's. They must also have had to have had their items widely condemned once offered for resale, or otherwise. A case has to be made that these authenticators and forensic examiners are consistently wrong, to the point of being incompetent. It would then follow that auction houses and galleries accepting this material, and having been warned multiple times that the material is "bad", were not exercising due diligence and may themselves be legitimate targets for litigation (or prosecution). I would then hope that a trail might lead to the forgers themselves.Then there's the matter of all these forgeries coming on the market and diluting the value of the legitimate, authentic material owned by collectors out there who paid real money for what they own.

I'd like to hear from attorneys (with autograph dealer or auction house references) prepared to spend a little time researching the potentialities of this issue. I also need to hear from victims willing to step forward.

I'll kick in $10,000 for starters.

I need to hear from you - you'll be hearing more from me.

In case any of you never got a chance to see the HBO Sports videos on authenticators, check out these Youtube videos (audio is a bit poor):

Part 1:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bZF5rvPPIY

Part 2:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx3I8VE2aUU&feature=related

If you have not seen this HBO show, take the time out to do so now.
I realize that I am praising myself a bit with this post , as I do come out looking very good on the blind test that was conducted by HBO, and many do not, but even if that did not happen, this would still be a worthwhile show for collectors to see.
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I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

Thanks for the YouTube information. I just watched it. Everyone should. Also has other videos on there with James Spence etc. Worth listening and watching.

So if I wanted to have a Ruth ball and Beatles album reviewed, which three people or companies would you suggest? Thanks and I hope their opinions are all the same either ( fake or real), if differ then it really creates a problem.

I just watched both videos. I am just glad I do not collect or buy autographs only cards. That is very disturbing to watch. I am sure new rings are out there doing fakes and still passing them as we speak. Why do people still buy all the autograph stuff on ebay it's weird...

Josh - though the risk is high, some people are autograph collectors. There is something about having an authentic autograph in your hands that "connects" you to the person who signed it, much more so than in any other collecting endeavor.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

Why don't we try a full page add with Krause. If they turn it down they will be admitting that what the ad says is true. I know there are some really good writers on this site.

Leon and board members,

Before we all jump in bed with theyneedglasses, this person needs to id themselves. We have an unidentified poster soliciting monies from the board. If there was an annonymous poster for the other side (forensics) we would all come down hard on them. For credibility purposes, theyneedglasses needs to step up and be held to the same requirements we all have been held to. Lets do this right.

I agree with John. Glasses should ID himself ASAP if he wants to establish credibility with this group. Anonymous posts carry much less weight around here.
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I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

Friends -

In response to John's posting, I am NOT in any way soliciting funds, nor would I EVER (if I were any of you) give a nickel to any anonymous individual or group purporting to be anything or do anything. I am suggesting that SOMEONE organize an effort to determine what options, legal and otherwise, are available to combat this growing menace to the hobby we love. I pledged $10,000 and I'll send to the first credible group with a good plan to put in place.

I collect a lot of information from various sources for use on our website. Some of it is confidential. All lot of what I say is going to make a lot of people pissed off, and may invite unwelcome attention. So...until the time is ripe, I prefer to lay low and continue doing what I'm doing on my web site. Wouldn't you do the same?

Alternatively, I'll contact some of my friends and associates in the industry who may be willing to publicly speak for me on this thread. I work closely with these folks and we've all been monitoring this site.

Sorry this is all so cloak and dagger, guys, but frankly we're dealing with millions of dollars a year in bogus stuff, so undoubtedly there are some potentially very bad people somewhere in this mix.

Theyneedglasses,

You're missing the point. If we're expecting any results from Krause, collecting groups, or a judge, all cards need to be laid on the table. Annonymous posts have always been met with opposition from the board. Credibility goes out the window when a nameless, faceless entity is passing information. Personally, I would love to sling a little mud at a few dealers and auction houses if I didn't have to be identified. Who wouldn't? It's just not the way to get any positive results.

Gents,

There's two personae:

1.) The guy who put up and maintains www.theyneedglasses.com, who must remain anonymous for reasons already stated, and;

2.) The guy who is willing, publicly, to show his cards and cooperate openly and willingly with any organization or group that seeks to clean up this business, once some such structure is established.

It's as simple as that.

Now, we're getting sidetracked. Anyone who wants to contact me can do so via email and will get a response from a real human being, probably already known to them!

I started this thread with the hope that it would lead to people getting angry and doing something about the suspect part of the autograph market. Well I think that has worked. Now its time for the people on here to come up with a working idea on just how to get to fixing the problem.
I still feel that we should put pressure on Krause an