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On the other hand, it might not be all that clear. The answer may turn out to be the infamous "it depends". Here is a fairly well-rounded discussion, with points both pro and con. Certainly not all negative though.
personally i would never ever buy a high grade CSA card. if you're looking at a CSA 7 or 8 i would 100 percent pass. if you're talking about a CSA 2 or 3 i would say its worth it to take the chance. but thats only if its not an insanely rare card.
I know CSA is not a good grading company. How is KSA grading compared to the better ones like sgc psa. i notice most ksa are hockey cards. i guess thats fdrom being acanadian grading company. but how are they with baseball or vintage cards. thanks guys
I echo the sentiments regarding staying away from high grade CSA cards. On the other hand, a few years agao I bought a CSA3 T227 Bender and it crossed over to an SGC 3.
I've only purchased two CSA graded cards (at a huge discount). Both were cracked from the holders and then submitted to SGC. Both graded at least one full grade lower by SGC.
Personally, I think if you buy a CSA card you're taking your chances. I know of some people that have purchased CSA and the cards were trimmed.
Years ago I purchased a CSA 5 (old red) T206 Cobb bat on. Later, sent it to PSA for crossover. It now rests in a PSA 5 slab. One of my top hobby thrills to see it posted like they do right before they send 'em back !!!
Rolled the dice a second time with a CSA 8 (old red) 1954 Topps Ted Williams. Figured a lock of a 7, and an 8 possible, looked that nice. After crossover, came back a PSA 6. Upon retun I spotted a hairline crease on back, was it there before? hmmm PSA hmm.
The old red holders can be worth the gamble, other CSA holders NO.
I have crossed many of the older god-awful-ugly blue and gold holders to SGC with no problems whatsoever. Think most of the newer report-card type holders are the ones to worry about.
Hager started ASA, as Leon said. Most of the ASA I cards I bought were trimmed although others have had better experiences. In all fairness to CSA, they aren't as bad as PRO, the all-time worst, but I would be leery. Likely to be overgraded. Avoid CTA as well, if they are even still around. Either unable to detect problems or willing to overlook them.
Looks to be a great shape card none the less. I will inspect it when I get it in the mail next week. I am hoping for a good grade if not trimmed like a 6. CSA on their website doesnt graded altered cards. I didnt know about CSA until after I bought it.
Years ago I bought an M116 Walter Johnson raw in an auction. I handed it in at a show to PSA and it came back a 7. CSA was grading at the show and I gave it to them and it came back a CSA 9. About a year later I tried crossing it back to PSA and it came back an 8. A couple of months later at the SF Labor Day Show I sold/traded it for cash and a bunch a stuff. I later learned that it wound up a PSA 9. Go figure!
Arthur- that story should be the poster child for everything that's wrong with grading. There are few objective standards, and it always makes me wonder why people pay such huge premiums for high grade cards when grading at times is such a farce.
Barry you'se is right. Sad. Only part of grading is science - the rest is subjective. I understand why some collectors and dealers continue to submit cards until they get a grade they fancy - and if they pays their money - they should be able to submit a card as many times as they want. The grading companies are unable to determine whether a card has been submitted before - which inherently skews any kind of registry/population report - as some cards and respective holder may no longer exist - and some single card could occupy as many spaces as times it was submitted. The whole thing "feels" fundamentally wrong to me. A numerical grade as opposed to authentic/not authentic is either about transacting business where the actual condition of the card cannot be SEEN or about the # itself. For a dealer whose income depends on getting the most for his/her product - the higher the grade the greater the sale - especially in the "rarified air" of dem whales or registry masters. To resubmit a card numerous times hoping to catch someone napping at the grading company seems unprincipled - but perhaps that is the American way? Funny that about 7/8 years ago I asked one of the grading companies if I could get a card holdered with no grade, The look I got was priceless. "Why would you want to do that" and "that isn't something we do". I admit I PAY based on grades - but as it's been said befoe - buy the card and not the holder.....
In Arthur's example that M116 Johnson was a 7, 8, or 9 at different times. That is an unacceptable spread when the difference in value between a 7 and 9 can easily be 5x-10x. How can buyers have any confidence in the market, and pay such huge premiums for low pop cards, when those numbers have little objective meaning? Given the sloppiness of grading and the constant bumping for a higher grade, the spread between NR MT and Mint should be minimal.
I am not suggesting Arthur did anything to this card but not all changes in grades are limited to inconsistencies during the evaluation. Can Arthur state with 100% certainty that once the card left his possession nothing was done to it. It is not too hard to imagine a card going from a NM 7 to a NM-MT 8. A high end 7 is after all just a 7. When I used to sell ungraded cards I would label the protectos with a grade. From time to time I would evaluate old inventory and many times I would change the grade. As long as humans are involved in grading there will be these types of changes. Add the element of 5 or more people doing the grading...
Arthur,
You have been in this hobby a very long time. Why would a seasoned vet ever take a CSA 9 over a PSA 7? I am not sure there was ever a time where that was even close to making sense economically.
Greg,
I don't think I remember exactly what year it was (probably 94-96), but it was at the time when graded cards were just being accepted and still many many collectors frowned upon the thought of having graded cards. A majority of the cards I had were ungraded and CSA was definitely a new company that had a holder that resembled PSA. I do remember selling a CSA Sport Kings Cobb at the show for good money so I figured why not submit it. The M116 Johnson was an absolute beauty and I remember exactly what auction I bought it in and the person that sold it went on to have a great career in graded cards. If everyone realized at that time, how graded cards would take off, I never would have been able to buy it for as reasonably as I did. Obviously I don't know what happened to the card after it left my possession, but while I owned it, it went from holder to holder thru the crossover process. My thought always was that it was much closer to a 9 than it was to a 7.
If you look at the whole card it's got tiny borders on top and bottom compared to other T206's. Couple that with how sharp they are AND the fact it's in the holder it's in....and I think you can come to your own conclusion. There is a tiny chance it's not trimmed....but I would rather take my chances on the lottery....
My view is that it is trimmed along the top, at least. Measurement is less relevant than ensuring that your card was cut in the factory how T206 cards were cut. Clean T206 cards come in various shapes and sizes.
Get yourself a copy of SGC Collector magazine, the one in which they go over what to look for in trimmed edges on T206 cards. T206 edges should not be perfectly squared off, they will have a beveled edge. Moreover, look at the edges of the card from the side. I would bet that the top edge does not have the diagonal striations that the other three sides have.
Measurement alone will not tell you if it's trimmed or not. As for my last comment I am sure there are some T206's that are undersized and fine....but if you put all 3 of the telltale signs together...
1. Size of top and bottom borders.
2. Sharpness of said border corners.
3. Grading company.
you get a poor picture....That card in a PSA or SGC 8 holder is 3k or probably a lot more....why is it in a holder where the received price will be around 5%-10% of it's value...if good?
From the article on detecting trimming in T206s available right here on 54:
"On the front of a T206, the top border of the card virtually always has a slight etching, appearing to be the top of a “roll” running across the card. This is present due to how the cards were cut at the factories. Oddly enough, even though these cards were printed in many different factories, they were all printed and cut very similarly, with the exception of American Beauties. American Beauties are much more narrow than the average T206.
The aforementioned roll can be difficult to spot without magnification. The “roll” should be seen on one of the side edges as well as the top or bottom edge. If this roll or etching is not present on the top edge and either the left or right edge, there is an excellent chance your card has been trimmed"
-Al
edited for clarity
This message has been edited by Novocent on Apr 29, 2008 3:40 PM
