In light of the most recent "phony" T206 Red Cobb with a DRUM back, I thought it would be informative to post the following
list of DRUM cards. In addition, I have observed a commonality between four of the tougher T-brand backs that I feel is worth
discussing here.


1st.....Shown here are the four T206 backs produced for the 350 Series that have identical stylized FRAME and lettering. It
is probably safe to conclude that the same artist at American Lithographic Co. (ALC) designed these four backs. The design
is exactly the same....just the name of the T-brand differs.
These tougher T206 cards were very likely inserted in their respective cigarette packs at the end of the 350 Series run. Scot
Reader's "Inside T206" book identifies the release of American Beauty 350 cards in the Summer of 1910 (quite later than the
availability of the Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, and Sovereign 350 cards). The Cycle, Broad Leaf, and Drum cards, I would theor-
ize, were available simultaneously with the American Beauty's, or in the Fall of 1910.
Therefore, due to this late date, the T206's in particular with Broad Leaf, and Drum backs were very Short-Printed.....as ALC
was more involved in producing their last (460) Series of cards to be released at the end of 1910 and early 1911.

However, there appears to be an emerging pattern, that all 4 of these backs were printed on certain Subjects. For example:
Dineen is found with AB 350, BL 350, Cy 350, and DRUM. If this observation is valid, then it can prove to be very valuable in
predicting the availaility of a DRUM (or a Broad Leaf) back. Incidently, this "rule" is only applicable to Subjects (approx. 200
cards) in the 350-only Series and the six Super-Prints.






This list reflects 28 years of recorded DRUM backs......there are a total of 80 Subjects.
Of these, 30 are from the 350/460 Series.

Arellanes
Atz
Baker
Barbeau
Barry (Milwaukee)
Becker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Burch (fldg)
Burke
Carr
Chance (yellow)
Chase (dark cap)
Collins (Minnesota)
Crawford (bat)
Delehanty (Louisville)
Dineen
Donovan (throw)
Doolan (bat)
Dorner
Downs
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fldg)
Engle
Evers (Chi-yellow sky)
Fiene (portrait)
Graham (Boston)
Griffith (bat)
Hallman
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hofman
Huggins (hds/mouth)
Jackson
Jennings (dance)
Johnson (pitch)
Jordan (bat)
Killian (portrait)
Knabe
Konetchy (glove lo)
Krause (portrait)
Lake (no ball-St Louis)
Lattimore
Maddox
Magee (bat)
Marshall
Mathewson (dark cap)
McAleese
McBride
McQuillan (bat)
Milan
Moeller
Moran
Moriarty
Murray (bat)
Myers (fldg)
Overall (yel sky)
Pfeister (throw)
Phillippe
Pickering
Quinn
Reulbach (no glove)
Randall
Rudolph
Seymour (throw)
Speaker
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Stephens
Street (fldg)
Sweeney (bat)
Sweeney (fldg)
Taylor
Thielman
Titus
Wagner (bat/right)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Zimmerman


Net54er's....feel free to add to this list any T206 DRUM cards that do not appear on it.


TED Z

Ted - an authentic red Cobb w/ Drum sold last year in a SGC AUT slab.

- Jon

Edited to add: it was lot 646 in the November 2007 Hunt Auction... http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=32&lot_num=646&lot_qual=

"You will note that an original (authentic) Red Cobb with a DRUM back has yet to be sighted."

Does this mean SGC got it wrong in labeling the one Jon pointed out as authentic?

I believe Brian Weisner noted knowing of more than one legitimate example of the red Cobb/Drum. Perhaps he will chime in here before long.
JimB

Are u ignoring me?

Hi Guys,
I will post scans of 2 legit Cobb/Drum's when I get back home... I don't think my wife could find them in my massive scan gallery. Be well Brian

Ted,
Here is a list I have on file and you can add Slagle and Strang. Also this list does not include the Hunt find.

114 I think

350 subjects:
Bill Abstein
Frank Arellanes
Jake Atz
Jap Barbeau
Shad Barry ML (Milwaukee)
Emil Batch ML
Beals Becker
Jimmy Burke ML
Charley Carr ML
Doc Casey ML
Josh Clark ML
Jimmy Collins Minneapolis (HOF)
Bunk Congalton ML
Paul Davidson ML
Frank Delehanty ML (Delahanty, Louisville)
Bill Dineen (Dinneen)
Wild Bill Donovan (throwing)
Gus Dorner ML
Jerry Downs ML
Clyde Engle
Jerry Freeman ML
Peaches Graham (Boston)
Bill Hallman ML
Harry Hinchman ML (Toledo)
Dick Hoblitzell
Solly Hofman
Miller Huggins Hands at Mouth (HOF)
Jimmy Jackson ML
Joe Kelley (HOF)
Ed Killian (portrait)
Otto Knabe
Harry Krause (pitching) "White" cap
Harry Krause (portrait)
Rube Kroh
Bill Lattimore ML
Jimmy Lavender ML
Ed Lennox
Paddy Livings tone (Livingston)
Nick Maddox
Billy Maloney ML
Doc Marshall
John McAleese
George McBride
Dan McGann ML
Clyde Milan
Fred Mitchell ML (Toronto)
Pat Moran (Chicago)
George Moriarty
Red Murray (batting)
Billy Nattress ML
Simon Nichols (Nicholls) (batting)
Deacon Phillippe
Ollie Pickering ML
Jack Quinn
Newt Randall ML
Bob Rhoades (Rhoads) (hands at chest)
Charlie Rhodes
Lou Ritter ML
Dick Rudolph ML
Boss Schmidt (portrait)
Jim Scott
Jimmy Slagle ML
Fred Snodgrass (batting)
Tris Speaker (R) (HOF)
Charlie Starr
Sam Strang ML
Gabby Street (portrait)
Bill Sweeney (Boston)
Jake Thielman ML
John Titus
Bob Unglaub
Jack Warhop
Heinie Zimmerman

350/460 subjects:
Home Run Baker (R) (HOF)
Chief Bender No Trees (HOF)
Heinie Berger
Al Burch (fielding)
Frank Chance Yellow Portrait (HOF)
Hal Chase Black Cap
Ty Cobb Red Portrait (HOF)
Ty Cobb Bat off Shoulder (HOF)
Sam Crawford With Bat
Mickey Doolan (batting)
Larry Doyle (N.Y. Natl., with bat)
Kid Elberfeld (Wash., fielding)
Johnny Evers Chicago (yellow sky) (HOF)
Lou Fiene (portrait)
Lou Fiene (throwing)
Clark Griffith Batting (HOF)
Hughie Jennings Two Hands (HOF)
Walter Johnson Glove at Chest (R) (HOF)
Tim Jordan (Brooklyn, batting)
Red Kleinow Boston
Ed Konetchy (glove near ground)
Joe Lake (St Louis. No ball, r.h. visible)
Sherry Magee (with bat)
Rube Manning (pitching)
Christy Mathewson Dark Cap (HOF)
George McQuillan (with bat)
Danny Murphy (batting)
Orval Overall (hand face level)
Barney Pelty (vertical photo)
Jake Pfeister (Pfiester) (throwing)
Ed Reulbach (no glove showing)
Cy Seymour (throwing)
Harry Steinfeldt (with bat)
Jeff Sweeney (New York)
Heinie Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Kaiser Wilhelm (with bat)
Ed Willetts (Willett)
Vic Willis Batting
Hooks Wiltse (pitching)

I can add a Purtell with a Drum back to the list.

Millerhouse

Thanks JON,
1st time I have seen a Red Cobb/Drum in 28 years that I have confidence in, that it wasn't a re-backed one.

I'll add this card to the list.

TED Z

Thanks JIM R

This a is great start....let's keep adding more T206 Subjects with DRUM backs to the list..

Also, Guys and Gals

I would appreciate any of your thoughts on my "American Beauty-Broad Leaf-Cycle-DRUM (ABCD) connection" ?

With the added DRUM's to the tally, this "ABCD connection" is proving to be more than just a "wild" hypothesis.


BRIAN W

I look forward to your inputs.


TED Z

1 more addition
there was a Herbie Moran on ebay a couple weeks ago

If you check the 54 archive there was a thread on this and between Art M., Brian W. and Bill H. the list was a little over 100. I am sure that is where I got my list.

Knabe to the mix.

Ted,

With regard to asking for opinions on the backs, although all four are near matches, I do feel that the AB back is slightly different which makes me wonder is the AB were released before the other 3 - possibly summer of 1910 with Drum, Cycle and Broadleaf coming later.

Specifically, when you look at the 3: Drum, Cycle and Broadleaf - they are perfect matches. You could literally paste one over the top and everything lines up. While AB is very close, there are differences between the AB backs and the other 3:

1.) 350 Subjects appears on 1 line, not 2 lines
2.) the "g" in Cigarettes is slightly less stylized
3.) the "a's" in "American Beauty" do not match the "a" in "Broad Leaf"
4.) The "r" in "American" does not match the "r's" in "Broad" or "Drum"

Thoughts?

- Jon

My 1st order comparison is the Frame design, which I think you will find is perfectly repeated on all four brands,

Now, I believe I said that the AB's were most likely issued first (Summer of 1910); and, subsequently the BL, Cy,
and DRUM. And, the proof of this is in their sheer numbers. AB's are considerably more plentiful than Cycle, and
of course Broad Leaf and DRUM.

My theory is simple....the later that year that these 350 series cards were produced....the less of them that were
printed (hence, less are available 99 years later).

TED Z

I did quite a few searches and couldn't find any threads that had extensive DRUM lists. Perhaps, I didn't search enough. So,
I posted my list.
Do you have the URL link to the Net54 thread you referred to ?

TED Z

Ted,

I will try to find it.
I just remember copying the Drum list from a thread. There was a list of 70 or so, then Bill H. gave his input and the list wentover 100.

Ted,

The one opposing piece of evidence on your American Beauty-Broadleaf-Drum connection seems to be the Bresnahan with bat card. I have it with an American Beauty back and I just saw that card sell on eBay this week with a Broadleaf back. I noticed that card, however, is not on your Drum back list. Does it exist with the Drum back and, if not, does that disprove the connection?

David R

Your......
"The one opposing piece of evidence on your American Beauty-Broadleaf-Drum connection seems to be the Bresnahan with bat card."

Not so....I have a Bresnahan (Cycle 350 back). Therefore, given your two backs, I fully expect a DRUM back to show up eventually.

I am going to post all the known T206's that conform to my "A-B-C-D connection".

TED Z

Here you go Ted

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1191807064/last-1192475008/Re-+T206+DRUM+backs+population+report

Thanks much......I was searching back 3 to 5 years ago.

TED Z

Hi Ted,
I don't have access to my data at the moment, but I can tell you that there are many similiarities with these four brands. I do not believe they are perfect matches, just as most of the other patterns in this "release" have abnormalities. Bresnahan batting is an interesting example... As I have always felt that it was the "Super Print" of the 350 series...

I have the following (Bresnahan) tougher backs, and I have seen several of each, but NO Drum's...

2 Broad leaf's
1 Carolina Bright
2 American Beauty's
1 Cycle
1 EPDG
1 Old Mill

Personally, I believe that Drum's are scarce because they were only introduced as a Cigarette brand in late 1910 and had little or no time to develop a customer base before the 1911 ATC breakup. Drum had always been a loose tobacco brand before Duke aquired it, and it returned to a loose brand after the breakup.

PS I'll add more whe I get home.........

Ted, here's a real Drum/Cobb

Here is a list of the 350-only cards that conform to the "A-B-C-D connection"....they cover all four bases.
As time goes by more T206's will show up with all four backs.

I'm looking for a CHASE (blue portrait) with a DRUM back to touch all "four bases".

Abstein
Arellanes
Barbeau
Batch
Clark
Congalton
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Dineen
Downs
Engle
Hinchman (Toledo)
Ed Killian (portrait)
Knabe
Kroh
Maloney
Milan
Mitchell (Toronto)
Moran (Chicago)
Nattress
Purtell
Randall
Rhodes
Slagle
Speaker
Strang
Unglaub

And, here are the Super-Prints (Am Bty 350 with Frame) that conform to the "A-B-C-D connection"......

Chance (portrait-yellow)
Evers (yellow sky)



TED Z

You are a good ole buddy....you always come thru with the good stuff.....thanks for the info.

TED Z

Moran - Providence

Ted,
This ABCD connection is most interesting and may well be as seminal a contribution to the hobby as your Primacy of Piedmont theory.

I would like to reraise Jon Canfield's question, if I may. In your initial
premise, you maintained that the 4 backs have identical stylized Frame and
lettering. You go on to say that it is probably safe to conclude that that same artist at ALC designed these four backs---the design is exactly the same...just the brand name differs.
Jon agrees that D,C, and B are perfect matches but underscores that while
AB is close, there are differences... .
Your response to Jon is that your 1st order of comparison is the Frame design.

Since it is clear, I believe, that Jon's nuancing of the ABCD connection is correct, do you continue to maintain that the same artist designed these 4 backs? Do you think that the differences which Jon elucidates simply point to the AB's being printed at a different date from the other 3, providing corroboration for your point regarding BCD's printing simultaneity.

great work, Ted
best,
Barry

Hey Guys,

This frame discussion has me wondering about the dimensions of the frame. I have one Broadleaf, no Drums... so I'm not able to make a precise comparision.

What I'm thinking is that the AB frame is done first. Look at how nicely "Beauty" fits in between those curly-ques (Barry, how do I spell that?). Then the other brands come along... "Cigarettes" looks a bit cramped in there, doesn't it?

The American Beauty cards are not as wide, as we all know, 'cause the American Beauty cigarette packages were slimmer. And it seemed that from a thread about Broadleaf not long ago that they too are a bit slimmer. My one Broadleaf looks ever so slightly thinner than a normal card. Cycle cards are full size, I think. And I suspect Drums are but I do not have one. If American Beauty cards came before B, C, & D, it seems American Litho could have either kept the same size frame for all cards, the easiest; or engrave a new frame that would better fit the normal size cards, requiring additional work.

So... do the frames on all the cards seem exactly the same size? Are AB frames smaller? And are Broadleaf frames slightly smaller too??

Frank.

Always great to hear from you, you are certainly one who appreciates these subtleties regarding the Monster.

OK, there is no argument regarding the Frame design on these four brands. Incidently Barry....of all basic 15
T-brands.....AB, BL, Cy, and DRUM are the only backs that share the same design.

Let's look at the lettering style (I show these two for illustrative purposes)....what words all 4 have in common:

1....CIGARETTES

2....Base Ball Series

3....the type style is identical for "350 SUBJECTS".....but, AMERICAN BEAUTY requires 2 lines, therefore "350
SUBJECTS" is printed on one line.

4....all four T-Brands are "Factory No. 25, 2nd Dist. VA"


Now, regarding the trivial differences in the large lettering of the T-brands......

1....the "A" variability between "American Beauty" and "Broad Leaf", I attribute to economy of space.

2....I see no difference in the "E" in "AMERICAN" and "LEAF"....and, an extremely minor difference in the "E"
in "BEAUTY".

3....The "R" differs (slightly) between "AMERICAN", "LEAF", and "DRUM".


Barry, I am no expert on artwork; however, I have a great friend who is a professional artist. I will seek his
opinion on this subject. And, I will report back to you.

In any event, whether it was the same artwork (or not), the thrust of my point on the "A-B-C-D connection"
was meant to provide some insight into why certain T-brand backs are much tougher than others....based on
the time frame when they were issued.

Best regards,

TED Z

Great question.....

All four T-brand FRAMES are identical in size.....2 7/16" by 1 1/4"

Best regards,

TED Z

Once again Ted Z energizes a scholarly post on the beloved Monster.
Thanks Ted. Great reading.
RayB

Good to hear from you. How's that EPDG set coming along ?

TED Z

Many thanks, Ted, for your carefully articulated and cogent response.
I look forward to hearing the contributions of your professional artist friend,too.
You continue to help us see the excitement available to all of us when scholarly research is done.
many thanks for your scholarly efforts,

best,

barry

The nuances of T206 are not something that I know a lot about, but based on the posts in this thread, I thought the following images might be of interest. I took the above posted backs and superimposed the AB over the others. #2 is mostly to show the different in the "Cigarettes" text (and similarity in "Base Ball Series" text), though the border otherwise matches.





Let me know if there's a better/different combo that you'd like to see.

Now if someone would work on a Drum list of T205s, I'd be eternally grateful!

Thanks, Chris, for the fancy image work.


So Ted, others....

Is this correct?

1 - American Beauty cards were the first of the 4 ABCD's to be printed and distributed.

2 - Broad Leaf cards (2 separate words) are not of normal width, nor are they as slender as American Beauty cards; AB's are 1/16th of an inch skinnier, and BL's 1/32nd of an inch skinnier, than normal cards. I think this from that other Broad Leaf thread, personal observation, and the scan above Chris provided. I suggest that a lack of awareness of this odd dimension would be why SGC has graded several as 'Authentic', when in fact they really weren't trimmed.

3 - The printing sequence was AB 350 w/o frame, AB 350 w/ frame, Cycle 350, BL 350, Drum 350, AB 460, Cycle 460, BL 460.

4 - I speculate that the sequence above ended before Drum 460s would have been issued, hence there are none.


I'm just guessing and wondering about these 4 points. Comments?

1st....I'm not sure what to make of Chris' efforts and what they tell us. The Lettering on the backs of these four T-brands
were not typeset by American Litho. This lettering was hand sketched by an artist and then transfer onto printing plates.

2nd....Sorry buddy, but I have to change the order of sequence of the different T206 backs. Here is how I see it (and why).

AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (Frame) Fac. #25 VA....Summer 1910 (re. Scot Reader's T206 book)....Includes 350-only series and
the Six Super-Prints

CYCLE 350 Fac. #25 VA......Summer/Fall 1910....350-only series

BROAD LEAF 350 Fac. #25 VA....Summer/Fall 1910....350-only series

DRUM 350 Fac. #25 VA....Fall 1910....350-only series and 350/460 series

AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (No Frame) Fac. #25 VA....Fall 1910....350/460 series

CYCLE 460 Fac. #25 VA....Fall/Winter 1910....350/460 series and 460-only series

BROAD LEAF 460 Fac. #25 VA....Fall/Winter 1910....350/460 series and 460-only series

AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 Fac. #42 NC....Spring 1911....350/460 series and 460-only series (Except the 6 Super-Prints)


TED Z

You asked...."Now if someone would work on a Drum list of T205s, I'd be eternally grateful!"

Have you read Kevin Struss' T205 article in the VCBC (circa mid-1990's) ?

Kevin has put together several T205 sets and if I recall correctly, his article might have an
answer to your ?

TED Z

Hey Ted,

I'm ok with that sequence... wonder why AB went from frame to no frame then back to frame?


And what do you think about the width of Broad Leaf cards, might they be 1/32 wider than ABs and 1/32nd narrower than the other cards?

AB 460 is Frame-less




TED Z

Ted,
I don't post much but read the board every day. I always especially enjoy your thoughtful and thought provoking research and posts. Regarding back designs, I have always felt that the Piedmont and Tolstoi backs were identical as well. I don't know what, if anything, that adds to this discussion but I think it's interesting to note. I have also noticed the ABCD similarities and feel that your explanation makes a lot of sense. Keep up the great work!

"1st....I'm not sure what to make of Chris' efforts and what they tell us."

I'm not really sure either, other than it shows that the frames do match up exactly. I thought that was interesting.

Excellent observation of the similarity between the PIEDMONT and TOLSTOI artwork.

Furthermore, I'm impressed with the darker BLUE color of your Piedmont 460/42 back. I have several of these backs;
and, everyone of them is a very light Blue.

I'm curious....who is on the front of this card ?

Thanks for your kind words,

TED Z

Re: Tolstoi/Piedmont, I did the same with the two images provided. As you can see, the frames are very similar to be sure, but at least on these two examples, do not match perfectly.

OK, if my rule is valid on the "A-B-C-D connection", there should be a DRUM back for my all-time favorite T206 card......the blue Chase ?

I have this Chase with 15 of his T206 backs......including AB 350 (Frame), CYCLE 350, and BROAD LEAF 350. So, the Chase/DRUM would
complete the A-B-C-D "homerun".

But, so far all the data we have regarding DRUM backs indicates that this Chase card has not been found.

Any help on finding this Chase would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

TED Z

Ted,
The front of the Piedmont card is Lajoie (with bat). I agree that this example is a darker blue than most others I have seen.

On a side note, the scan of the backs that you just posted above made me realize the similarity in frame design of Polar Bear and Old Mill backs. Not identical but close enough to make the case that it was likely the work of the same artist.

Also, I have noticed that Cycle backs (especially the 460 series) seem to be much tougher than they are often given credit for. Most rankings I have seen place them in the middle range of scarcity with Tolstoi, EPDG, AB, Old Mill, etc but I have seen and owned far more of all of these backs than Cycles. I don't pay much attention to the population reports but I would go so far as to say that I even see more Hindus than Cycles. This would seem to corroborate your theory that Cycles are most akin to Broadleaf and Drum backs though they are clearly not quite to that level of scarcity.

Great find on the Lajoie (bat) with the Piedmont 460/42 back....a very rare card, indeed.

Your observation on the Frame of the Old Mill and Polar Bear backs is a good one, as these two were available about the same time.

The CYCLE 350 cards are tougher than most give them credit for. The CYCLE 460 cards are very tough and I feel that these T206's
are more difficult to find than they are currently ranked.

TED Z

Ted- goto sleep!

just kidding...seriously tho, great research and insights, as always.

MS

Just get in from partying ?

Isn't 2 AM is a little early for you......

Be good,
TED

actually last night was an early one for me...my night off, if you will...

Getting back to you after getting my artist buddy's opinion on the A-B-C-D designs. The lettering on all four of these backs
is definitely hand sketched. The BROAD LEAF, CYCLE, and DRUM designs are identical and suggest that they were drawn by
the same artist.

The American Beauty differs ever so slightly that it might have been drawn by the same artist, or by another. In any event,
the AB design certainly set the style for the other three. Given the fact that the AB 350 (Frame) cards are more available
than either the BL 350, CY 350, or DRUM....it appears to suggest that there was an appreciable lead time for this AB brand.

One very surprising fact evident here, is that as scarce as the DRUM cards are.....approx. 80 from the 350-only Series and
40 (of the possible 56 subjects) in the 350/460 Series....for a total of 120 have been confirmed. And, I think more 350-only
Subjects will eventually be found.

TED Z

many thanks for the very helpful information from your artist friend and yourself.
the conclusions drawn are very convincing methinks.
many thanks for a most illuminative thread, Ted.

best,

barry

I'm reprising the theme of this thread for those of you who clicked onto the "bottom of page" link and have not read it.

Also, I have updated the list of T206's that conform to the T206 back Rule that I refer to as the "A-B-C-D connection".

The "A-B-C-D connection" is illustrated here with the four tougher T206 backs designed for the 350 Series that have identical
stylized FRAME and lettering. It is probably safe to conclude that the same artist at American Lithographic Co. (ALC) designed
these four backs. The design is exactly the same....just the name of the T-brand differs.
These tougher T206 cards were very likely inserted in their respective cigarette packs at the end of the 350 Series run. Scot
Reader's "Inside T206" book identifies the release of American Beauty 350 cards in the Summer of 1910 (quite later than the
availability of the Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, and Sovereign 350 cards). The Cycle, Broad Leaf, and Drum cards, I would theor-
ize, were available simultaneously with the American Beauty's, or in the Fall of 1910.
Therefore, due to this late date, the T206's in particular with Broad Leaf, and Drum backs were very Short-Printed.....as ALC
was more involved in producing their last (460) Series of cards to be released at the end of 1910 and early 1911.

However, there appears to be an emerging pattern, that all 4 of these backs were printed on certain Subjects. For example:
Dineen is found with AB 350, BL 350, Cy 350, and DRUM. If this observation is valid, then it can prove to be very valuable in
predicting the availaility of a DRUM (or a Broad Leaf) back. Incidently, this "rule" is only applicable to Subjects (approx. 200
cards) in the 350-only Series and the six Super-Prints.




Here is a list of the 350-only cards that conform to the "A-B-C-D connection"....they cover all four bases.
As time goes by more T206's will show up with all four backs.....current total = 48

Abstein
Arellanes
Barbeau
Batch
Becker
Burke
Casey
Clark
Congalton
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Dineen
Donovan (throw)
Downs
Engle
Freeman
Hinchman (Toledo)
Jackson
Ed Killian (portrait)
Knabe
Krause (pitch)
Kroh
Lennox
Livingstone
Maddox
Maloney
McAleese
Milan
Mitchell (Toronto)
Moran (Chicago)
Moran (Providence)
Nattress
Phillippe
Purtell
Randall
Raymond
Rhodes
Rudolph
Schrim
Scott
Slagle
Speaker
Starr
Strang
Titus
Unglaub

Here are two of the six Super-Prints (Am Bty 350 with Frame) that conform to the "A-B-C-D connection".......

Chance (yellow portrait)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)


And, I am still looking for a Blue portrait Chase with a DRUM back to complete my "A-B-C-D connection" of this,
my favorite, T206 card.


TED Z

Hi Ted,
I haven't had time to read the entire thread, but I do have the following Drum's that are not on your list:

Raymond
Schrim

PS I'll try to catch up tomorrow.

Be well Brian

You hit back-to-back HR's with Raymond ans Schirm....they are part of the "A-B-C-D club". I added them to the list.

Thanks,

TED Z

Haven't had much time for participation on the board, as I'm mostly on
the baseball diamond with my 8yr old son these days!

but some thoughts;
Cycle 350 is a July 1910 issue, and whether or not AB's were issued
concurrently or slightly before is a given in my mind.

most of the A-B-C-D pattern already exists in Bill Heitmans pamphlet
'The Monster' and I don't expect to see any variation from that...

I'm going to enjoy owning the Broadleaf 350 Bresnahan, and yes
'theoretically' there should be a Drum

Cheers guys!
an interesting post as always Ted!

Anyone here would like to venture a guess to this question....Why did the T206 designers drop the FRAME design for their add-
itional T-brand backs in their last Series....American Beauty 350 & 460, LENOX, UZIT ?

And of course, they added the Red HINDU back in the 460 series; but, the HINDU design was a repeat of the 150 series HINDU.

My guess is they fired the Frame designer....what's your guess ?







TED Z

My guess is that it was a mistake - the Uzit, AB 460 series and Lenox were all intended to have the same frame design as the AB 350, Cycle, etc but somehow, it got overlooked and the cards rolled off the presses without the frame being added.

Ted,

In terms of rarity, how do the frameless AB 350 and 460 cards compare to the versions with the frames? It does seem odd to me that there would be two versions in the same series unless it was a mistake.

David R

I never really noticed my AB 350's had a border and borderless version.....

JON

It might have been just a simple matter of omission as you suggest.

I think it is more complicated than that. The complexity of the Monster suggests that ATC and their "buddies" at ALC
appear to have left very little to chance in the design of these 522 cards (Magie & Joe Doyle being the exceptions to
this premise).


LEON

Where's your CYCLE 350 ?


TED Z

I don't think I even have a Cycle 350 yet. I have never really focused on the T206 backs because of the few that will be impossible to find...the ones that are more difficult than BL460 or Drum. I am sure there will be one in the future..

If you are interested in acquiring a CYCLE 350 in the "nearer future"....email me and I'll offer you several to choose from.

TED Z

The American Beauty 460's are much tougher to find the either of the American Beauty 350's.

TED Z

Also, I can personally tell you how tough the AB 460 cards are. I have been collecting a sub-set of these backs.
My homework indicates that there are approx. 75 possible AB 460's....and, so far I am only 1/3 the way there.

TED Z

Thanks Ted. Probably explains why I have a bunch of AB 350s (frame and no frame) but no 460s Does the 460 come with a frame?

I believe this fits right into the ABCD (ABCCD)connection.

A T213-1.....a great observation, guy. And, if I recall correctly, these Coupon cards were issued in 1910.
Coinciding with the time the T206 American Beauty-Broad Leaf-Cycle-Drum (A-B-C-D) cards were issued.
So now you've re-named this "connection" as the "A-B-C-C-D" one....very interesting. I have to give this
new discovery some more thought.

These T213-1 cards are very tough to find; and, another interesting coincidence is that the T213 cards
are narrow like the AB cards....hmmmm !

Here my lone Coupon card, a T213-3 Chase.....






Thanks for your great input to this subject,

TED Z

Compare Coupon type 1 backs to T206 Cycle backs...the borders are exactly the same...down to that "frilly" little design midway on each side.

The Frame, the Lettering style, and the 1910 date of this Coupon card are all identical to the A-B-C-D T206's.
Also, this early Coupon issue was produced at American Lithographic, so it all jives. If it was not for the blue
typography in the captions, we might just consider these Coupon Cigarette cards as a "16th T-brand" sub-set
of the T206 set.

Once again....thanks for checking this out.

TED Z

Ted - the 1910 Type 1 Coupons from 1910 didn't have blue lettering on the front - they had brown.

Only the Type 2 and 3 Coupon's from 1914/15 and 1919 respectively had blue lettering.

Edited to add Type 1 photo:

I think it would be a good idea to explore the 68 subjects that appear in the Coupon Type 1 set and to see if they match up with some other T206 series. I never quite understood why it is always assumed that the Type 1's were not part of the T-206 distribution. In fact, I always thought there is a more evidence that they were part of the T-206 distribution than to not be included.

You make a good point. Coupon cigarettes were part of the American Tobacco Trust.
And, as I said previously....the T213-1 cards were produced by American Lithographic.

TED Z

Ted - I'm with you buddy. I also feel like your points regarding the "scarcity" of the type-1's and their sizing are important. I will freely admit, however, that I am unsure who the subjects in the Type 1's include, the poses, etc. I would like to see if the 68 cards are similar to some other back... for example, if the Type 1's match up with the 150 SC distribution (or any other combination of back and series, etc). I truly feel that if it is explored in more detail, we may be able to come up with very good evidence that Coupon Type 1's should be included in the T-206 set.

The fact that there are also Type 2's and 3's does not change my thinking. Type 2's and 3's are different in form. The fronts have blue type as you pointed out and the backs are different (with different framing that does not match any T-206 back design). The type-set is also different, as is the paper stock, etc. Sweet Caporal, Piedmont and AB all went on to produce T205's. Coupon went on to produce Type 2's and 3's (IMO).

See Ted's ABCD thread.

I've compared T213-1's to T206's in hand. T213-1 is the standard T206 size. T213-1 does have name on front inked in brown. T213-1 does appear to be on a thinner card stock than the standard T206. In my opinion T213-1 is a subset to T206; if anything they are more closely related to T206 than they are to T213-2 & T213-3.



Now let's see what subjects we have. Post'em if you got'em.

Edited to say OOPS! meant to start a new thread for T213-1 images and list.

Here they are (x for drum) side by side.

Edited to add....
(+)
1--same size as standard T206
2--same images as T206's
3--identical inking for front caption
4--identical advertiser frame on reverse
5--same overall card design
6--same maker
7--born in 1910
(-)
1--thinner card stock
2--historically associated with T213-2 and T213-3 (perhaps incorrectly)

If one were to analyze some of the other T206 brands (American Beauty, Broadleaf, for example) one would find just as many differences from the "standard" T206.

The Subjects of the T213-1's that I am familiar with are from the T206 350 & 350/460 Series.
So far, this is coincident with the T206 Subjects associated with A-B-C-D connection.

Is this the info that you were asking for ?

TED Z

There was a complete T213-I set sold in Mastro within the past 3 years, can't remember the details, but if someone has the catalogue it would give a pretty difinitive list...interesting topic.
Greg B.

I wonder if the designation is different for Coupons because they are a Louisiana issue. There always seemed to be a bright line drawn between ATC and Louisana collectors way back in the day.

Hi Dave,
No line drawn.... ATC owned Coupon before the breakup and Ligget& Myers afterward, but the same manager Mr. Irby was still in charge. In fact Mr. Irby was in charge before ATC bought him out, so nothing really changed much in LA. In fact I believe that much of the Tobacco wars in LA after the breakup between ATC and People's Tobacco contributed to the continuation of the cards being released as premiums. The 2 companies fought hard over LA and sued each other a number of times. Thank God, otherwise we might never have seen the t213's or t216's.... Be well Brian


PS Ted, pretty easy to add to your earlier thoughts

Brian, I'm sorry-your post is not specific enough and I'm going to need more detail

Hi Dave,
I'm sorry... I used to have time to finish my research projects, but now I only have enough info to be dangerous. Be well Brian

The following 20 (T206) Subjects from the Southern League (8 teams) are included in the T213-1 set.

Bay (Nashville)
Bernhard (Nashville)
Breitenstein (New Orleans)
Carey (Memphis)
Cranston (Memphis)
Ellam (Nashville)
Fritz (New Orleans)
Greminger (Montgomery)
Hart (Little Rock)
Hart (Montgomery)
Hickman (Mobile)
Jordan (Atlanta)
Lentz (Little Rock)....sic..(Sentz)
Molesworth (Birmingham)
Perdue (Nashville)
Persons (Montgomery)
Reagan (New Orleans)
Rockenfeld (Montgomery)
Smith (Atlanta)
Thornton (Mobile)


TED Z

Thanks Ted - that's exactly what I was looking for.

Ted,

As usual, you deliver the goods.

Thanks for sharing!

Try reading this document regarding the PEOPLE'S TOBACCO CO. of Louisana and it should provide more detail regarding Brian W's post.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=246&invol=79

TED Z

The majority of T213-1's (except the 20 - So. Lgers.) are the same Subjects that fit the A-B-C-D pattern of the T206's.
I don't think this is a mere coincidence....it was by design.

TED Z

Hi Ted,
Happy Father's Day.... It took you a few more days than I thought...
But you are still the man. Keep searching there's more to the story.

Be well Brian

And, a Happy Father's Day to you, too....ole Buddy.

I've been tracking this connection for some time now....ever since I became interested in the People's Tobacco Co. (T216) cards;
and, the Louisana connection.

You and I should compare our notes.

Be good,

TED Z

Hi Ted,
I look forward to it...
Be well Brian


PS Who has the time machine this week???? You or me???

John Scott emailed me with an interesting point. John feels that the T213-1 cards should really be classified as an "ASSORTED"
brand in the T206 set. As a long time Brooklyn collector, John has all five T213-1 Brooklyn players (Dunn, Hunter, Lennox, Mar-
shall and McElveen).
Furthermore, he has observed that these same five Subjects in the T206 set are very difficult to find with ASSORTED backs (or
they just don't exist).

After some consideration, I think his point regarding the T213-1's makes very good sense......what do you think ?

TED Z

I've always wondered why carve out the same-front type 1s from T206 and group them with the quite different type 2 and type 3 cards.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

While Burdick definitely made a few mistakes (W503, H801-7 etc...) I still feel the T213's are correctly categorized. All 3 series got put in with Coupon Cigarettes and should be in the same category...to me it still makes the most sense. regards

T213-1 is a fascinating issue because it seems to straddle two different sets. It's shares a Coupon ad back with the later series 2 and 3, and it conforms to the design of the T206 A-B-C-D backs, making it appear to be a T206.

I lean towards it being part of T206, but there is a compelling argument the other way too.

Your T206 Brooklyn guys....Dunn, Hunter, Lennox, Marshall, and McElveen are only found with one ASSORTED brand....TOLSTOI.
I scanned several T206 surveys to determine this.

TED Z

Hi Ted,
Here's a Marshall for you....

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[IMG][/IMG]

Show us some more of your DRUM's......we don't often see enough of them.

Best regards ole Buddy,

TED Z

Four Frank Delehanty cards illustrating an actual example of the A-B-C-D connection.


TED Z

One of my several A-B-C combinations waiting for a DRUM to complete the connection.




TED Z

Another one of my several A-B-C combinations waiting for a DRUM to complete the connection.





TED Z

TED!!!

u noticed the darker color pied fact 42 "dark blue"....they are a variation of the "light" blue!!!!!!....i have been following them ...I THINK I HAVE 2 DARK BLUE PIED 42'S, took me a while to get...i'll check who they are , but they are like 5% of the total, kinda like a "brown" lenox or a a back color variation...in any case, they are pretty tuff!!!


johnny

That Piedmont 460 Fac. 42 caught my eye instantly. I have never seen one with a dark blue back
like the one that Marc posted on this thread. I have four of these rare backs and they all look like
they are "faded" blue.

I would be interested in knowing what T206 Subjects are on your dark blue versions.

Thanks,

TED Z

Campbell is one tough T206 with any back, other than a Piedmont 350.

Also, note the difference in the sunsets between each of these three cards.






TED Z

Nice Campbells, Ted.

I suspect the amount of red in the sky relates to the strength of the red ink layer on the card. Looks to me like the red in the "C" on his sleeve is much stronger and darker in the first card, which is also the one with more red clouds in the sky.

Jamie

Hi Ted,
You might add a Drum if you are really lucky, but it's easier to add one of these:

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[IMG][/IMG]




Be well Brian


PS You have been buying too many rare backs....

I once had 8 - CAROLINA BRIGHTS....but, now I have just one. A sharp looking Clymer.

I should have kept the others and built a sub-set of them. I acquired them years ago
when they were inexpensive.

TED Z

Hey BRIAN

There has to be a DRUM out there on this Blue Chase. The other 5 super-prints all have been
confirmed with DRUM backs.

What say you ?





TED Z

Calling Scot Reader, Calling Scot Reader,

Scot, I'd like to see an addendum to your T206 synopsis to include the T213-1 issues and speculation that it is really a T206 issue. Regardless, I enjoy your work regularly and have shared it extensively.