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Kevin Saucier Has Spoken

September 10 2008 at 8:30 AM

Anonymous  (Login jacklitsch)

 
Kevin Saucier
(Login only_child) Re: what do you guys make of this t206? September 10 2008, 1:39 AM


Hi all,

I have the card in hand and can say without any doubt that the "cigars logo" was printed first and is well under the Sweet Cap.

The section of thin paper loss just exposed the logo creating a bolder look. There are small parts of paper loss on the logo as well.

It's the real deal and a nice example in my opinion.


Kevin

------------------------------

www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples





    
This message has been edited by jacklitsch on Sep 12, 2008 6:33 PM


 
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AuthorReply
jay wolt
(Login qualitycards)

Re: Kevin Saucier Has Spoken

September 10 2008, 8:56 AM 

Will then...Would SGC re-grade it and list
it w/ the underprint?

 
 

Joe D.
(Login bijoem)

Re: Kevin Saucier Has Spoken

September 10 2008, 9:10 AM 

I hate to throw doubt on Kevin's opinion.....

but I am still not buying it.



If anyone would like to send me that card -
to get a print professional's opinion on when / how ink was put down -
feel free to contact me.


If Kevin is reading....
please email me to let me know what the evidence is that removes all doubt ("without a doubt").
How exactly do you know the ink of the cigar logo came first?
I would love to hear that evidence.



 
 

Dan Bretta
(Login slidekellyslide)
Network 54 Moderator

Re: Kevin Saucier Has Spoken

September 10 2008, 9:27 AM 

Sure didn't (and still doesn't) look like an "underprint" to me.

 
 
Matt
(Login MSW1)

Re: Kevin Saucier Has Spoken

September 10 2008, 9:33 AM 

http://cgi.ebay.com/T206-SCHLEI-WITH-RARE-UNITED-CIGARS-AD-BACK_W0QQitemZ150293183591

More detail from Kevin:

"I received the card today and gave it a very thorough inspection, spending about an hour on it. It is more than obvious that that cigar logo print is under the Sweet Caporal printing. I can go one step further and say that the print is well under the Sweet Cap. I use the term print because it does not seem to be a stamp. If you take a very close picture at an extreme angle you may be able to display it more accurately.

I am no paper or printing expert but having dissected hundreds of T206 cards I can tell you that not only can the front picture be lifted off but the back can as well....although using a much different technique. The cigar logo print appears to be under the ultra-thin layer of paper (or printing layer). Because of this it has the color is lighter in the areas without paper loss. In the section where there is paper loss, the color cigar logo is darker or bolder as a result of being exposed.

The paper loss is deeper in the middle of the card and thins over the cigar print, leaving the print virtually intact but small sections also have minor paper loss. The cigar print logo does not show (even faintly) on the front of the card. My thought is that the front picture was applied after the print had dried.

I will be sending the card back with your check, since I have yet to charge any collector. I am also including a thin paper piece of a Sweet Cap card back I made so you can get a better idea of what I'm trying to explain. Hold this piece into a light or the sun and you can see the print in reverse. Believe it or not, I would consider it a thick piece.

Hope this helps you and/or everyone else who had question about the cigar logo with the Sweet Cap overprint. Feel free to post this email anywhere you wish.

All the best,

Kevin Saucier"

 
 

Brian
(Login three25hits)

Re: Kevin Saucier Has Spoken

September 10 2008, 9:44 AM 


 
 
Steve
(Login WinPitcher)

Re: Kevin Saucier Has Spoken

September 10 2008, 9:57 AM 

10k lol


Steve






 
 

john/z28jd
(Login z28jd)

Re: Kevin Saucier Has Spoken

September 10 2008, 10:36 AM 

Even if it is an "underprint" someone said it best last week when they said,who cares,what does United Cigars have to do with t206's. If it is a "underprint" then technically its just a low grade t206 that was printed on used paper due to poor quality control at the factory. Leon has a card with about 10 "underprints" all having something to do with t206's (post a scan here Leon so we can see the messy card). If the united cigars card,which rightfully didnt get a bid at $1500 is now worth $10k then Leon's card is now worth close to $100k,Luckey him.

All I'm willing to concede at this point is that the card is a sweet caporal overprint on a black back card. Blank back cards are pretty rare among t206's as most people know, so to find one with a sweet caporal overprint like this card is more exciting to me and thats how I would market the card.

 
 
Anonymous
(Login cincicards)

Re: Kevin Saucier Has Spoken

September 10 2008, 10:55 AM 

Is it just me that sees the Croft candy logo similarity?




 
 

leon
(Premier Login leonl)
Network 54 Moderator

well

September 10 2008, 11:12 AM 

For my money I would still like to get a printing expert's opinion, no offense to Kevin. The card had to have paper loss on it when the "stamp" was put onto it. Personally, I think it is worth even less with the cigar stamp...maybe $5-$10.....but only as a filler. Now, if we could get some fried chicken thrown in then the price would maybe go up to about $2000.00.....but only if it's extra crispy. Yummy!!

John- here is the overprint. I will sell it for 90k but if I have Kevin deem it legitimate I will have to ask about $1 million....


 
 
jamie
(Login jwasserman)

Re: Kevin Saucier Has Spoken

September 10 2008, 11:13 AM 

you may not like his asking price but steve should be applauded for consulting a recognized and respected expert and getting a second opinion. there aren't a lot of sellers out there that listen to dissenting voices on their product and even fewer who would sink their own coin into validating their item.

 
 

Steve Murray
(Login jacklitsch)

Jamie, if the Steve in your post refers to me then

September 10 2008, 11:18 AM 

so that there be no confusion the card is not mine. Scott Elkins is the seller


    
This message has been edited by jacklitsch on Sep 10, 2008 11:19 AM


 
 
DD
(Login david_davis)

Re: Kevin Saucier Has Spoken

September 10 2008, 11:28 AM 

Jamie,
The card belongs to a former board member, not Steve.

We may all need some of this, as who knows what he'll write in the next auction ad for the card.

http://www.silenceyourrooster.com/default.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=rooster&utm_content=AMC1826&utm_campaign=baseline1&SourceCode=AMC1826>


    
This message has been edited by david_davis on Sep 10, 2008 11:28 AM


 
 
ali_lapoint
(Login ali_lapoint)

Re: Kevin Saucier Has Spoken

September 10 2008, 11:30 AM 

i respect kevin's opinion. but i'm having a hard time understanding the details of how this could have happened. to anyone's knowledge, did united cigars ever produce a set of cards in which that print appears on the back of? if so, i'm still having trouble understanding the placement of the print. why would it be there? also, if united did produce a set of trading cards of some kind, was it produced in the same factory that the sweet caporal cards were printed? these are fundamental questions that need to be answered before kevin's opinion can be taken into consideration.

 
 

Jeff Lichtman
(Login calvindog)

Re: Kevin Saucier Has Spoken

September 10 2008, 11:34 AM 

DD, you deserve kudos for "silence your rooster." Good stuff.

As for how the underprint occurred, I suspect some crazed cigar logo stamper was running around the printing presses that day in 1909 and stamped all the blank cardboard he could get his hands on. Yeah, that's the ticket!

And Kevin -- is it true you were spotted about town with a few scantily-cland roosters?

 
 

Steve Murray
(Login jacklitsch)

Re: Kevin Saucier Has Spoken

September 10 2008, 11:43 AM 

"And Kevin -- is it true you were spotted about town with a few scantily-cland roosters?"

Makes me think Jeff doesn't believe my initial post is actually from Kevin.

I copied it from the original thread and clearly the login, only_child is Kevin.

 
 
DD
(Login david_davis)

Re: Kevin Saucier Has Spoken

September 10 2008, 11:45 AM 

In all seriousness, it's amazing to me how some guy at a factory about 100 years ago most likely, inadvertently places that stamp on the card, and now a ridiculous price is on it.

I'm no expert, but at the simplest level, T206 backs have one color, not two. If it had part of a Hustler back, then I would be interested. Other than that, it's like trying to figure out who was behind Piltdown man.

 
 

Jeff Lichtman
(Login calvindog)

Re: Kevin Saucier Has Spoken

September 10 2008, 11:49 AM 

Steve, you thought wrong. I think that post is from Kevin; I just disagree.

 
 

MVSNYC
(Login mvsnyc)

From now on, whenever i see "Saucier", i think of...

September 10 2008, 11:50 AM 

"Before the war, i used to be a Saucier down in San Antone...I'm sorry, i just get excited about my food."

-Robert Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder (playing Kirk Lazarus, whose playing Osiris)

 
 

Rob D.
(Login wolfie51sb)

Re: Kevin Saucier Has Spoken

September 10 2008, 11:59 AM 

Most surprising to me: There's been a thread mentioning Kevin on the board now for more than 3 hours, and Jim Crandell hasn't posted yet.

 
 
 
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