There is a person on our BST that is posting under MRholdings. He has not responded to several email requests. Please be extremely careful....

MRholdings- please email me immediately.....

nevermind

I am not interested in the cards being offered as to the reason I want to be emailed. Others were before me on saying they would take them. This has to do with the safety of the board. If this person doesn't email me this evening their IP will probably be banned. You can't come on our BST anonymously, tout higher end items, and then not respond to emails that were sent within 8 minutes of the post AND also for not emailing a moderator when asked.....regards

I just got back from dinner, and I am kind of shocked by the overwhelming interest in the items that I have posted... and I am in the process of responding to all of the e-mails that I received. I posted on the forum on my lunch hour and then got caught up at work and did not get a chance to check my e-mail and the forum until now. Everyone that has e-mailed me requesting scans will get them tonight, and I can assure you that everyone that purchases a card from me will get it without any problem.

I tried to post my scans on the BST board but was not able to because my scans are too big... can anyone help me out with getting them down to a manageable size? Do I need to lower the resolution, size, or what?

Thanks and I apologize for the delay.

-MR

Please email me MR.....You really can't be anonymous on the BST...Hope you had a nice dinner....regards

Try this link. I find it the easiest to use in resizing images.

http://online-image-resize.kategorie.cz/

3:37pm and 8:40pm are kind of weird lunch times for today.......

fantastic prices for those rare cards. congrats and good luck to the buyers.

I have some confirmations so good luck to all...

hmmm so now we have a green back e98 overprint?...and the old put stamp is bluish. i thought they were always darker than that.

Neither stamp is like I have ever seen. I did speak with someone and they confirmed some things. Still, these overprints are some like I have never seen before...which happens ....

font seems off to me tbh...here's the 2 red cobb/wagner i found in rea.

no knock against the seller but as some know i'm always suspicious of after-production stampings on cards. this might be the 1st green discovery also right leon? please email me about the new info you obtained from your source on these. would love to hear them thanks.

I would never challenge someone's integrity without knowing the whole story so I will side on the side of error here. I hope that MRholdings is selling this Green Old Put Back mistakingly thinking that it is real, because it IS NOT a genuine Old Put stamp. I am 99.9% sure of that. I own 3 myself, including the Wagner that Quan has posted, thank you Quan, and I have seen others from fellow collector's collections and the ink color is wrong and the font size is wrong. It looks like someone has tried to cut a stamper or die to look like an origional.....very poorly I might add. If you go back into old threads, this forging of stamps was talked about as a possiblility and it looks like we have finally seen one. Like I said, hopefully this seller is honestly and mistakingly trying to sell a fake. At least I hope this is the case.

Tim Kindler

I looked at the E94 Oh You Fan overprint listed for sale and immediately said to myself "that looks like crap".....but, it's in an SGC holder? We don't need to take this thread there as we all know humans can make mistakes...but back to topic...I dunno....the title of the thread is still appropriate. I am trying to get past the fact there are TWO UNIQUE ones out of two cards.....it could happen....



edited to clarify- there is 1 other known E94 Oh You Fan overprint (I own it) and it has the same lettering but is a different color and font type...

i'm not e94 OP expert, cuz i've never owned one...but the e98 stamp is not sharp/crisp like the other 2, and it's not a "fading" problem or a light stamp. at the very least the buyer should get a provenance or genesis of where the card came from. that story should be quite interesting.

First of all....to echo Quan's thoughts I am always wary of overprints. I like provenance.
Here is another, 1930's card being offered, with backstamp from MR. The front is Bruton. In my little bit of experience larger format cards (this one approx 8x10) usually have larger back stamps than this? But again....it could be a coincidence.....

Both stamps look wrong. Could Jay Behrens' prophecy about knockoff stamps have come true? Gasp!

Pardon the nostalgia, but when the B/S/T started, it wasn't about users with names that included 'investments', 'LLC', or (now) 'holdings'. C'mon - you need to be a corporation or something that kinda looks like one? It was intended for collectors to buy/sell/trade with collectors. Thankfully, it's still mostly like that.

I think I can predict the outcome with these cards and it won't be pretty.


Bill

Here is a back stamp on a R310 that I have had for a little while.

Typically I'm not so inquisitive to look behind the curtain, but in this instance, I'd feel a bit better if the proprietor behind MR Holdings identified himself personally. After all, with some high end cards, perhaps one or more of us has dealt with him/her/them.

Regards,
Scott

Those stamps are small too but there are 3 of them. I just looked on about 5 different type cards I have and none had as small of stamps, relative to the size of the card, than the one posted above. I have seen a few dozen others and don't remember any that small...but it's certainly possible...

especially seeing yours, Rhett....thanks for posting it..

I know the guy and have bought and sold with him before, I didn't know he had a computer...I sold him that R310 card and I got it from Mark Macrae along with a few others....One actually still have. I think u guys r wrong, but whatever. His father or uncle or something was a big collector in Columbus yrs ago(now deceased). Also did u notice the E98 had no #1 of the list of 30 cards?? Dunno but he is a weird dude but I would not say he is dishonest at all. I have had the guy at my house and sold things to him many times and seen him at the Vets Show. I don't know of the other items but Mark can attest to the Karmel Shop cards. I do like the Sugardale if I had any $...

I have a little bit of mixed feelings about throwing this gent under the bus, publicly, contact-wise. He did email me his contact info and I WILL SHARE it privately as I too don't think you can't be anonymous with high ticket items on the BST.

I spoke to another board member who does know this person, "MR". I am not convinced of the legitimacy of the stamps and overprints, by any means......I will get in touch with SGC tomorrow and see if they remember the OH YOU FAN one...it had to be recent...

edited to change the word "can" to "can't"....which sort of changes the whole meaning

The missing #1 could be just flaked off like half the #29 and #30 are. His scanner, and trust me, mine is worse, might not be the best out there to show that paper loss. As I stated in my two cents earlier in the thread, I DO think that the E98 is fake, but that it might not be something that the seller is aware of and that the seller is hopefully not trying to purposely scam a buyer. I don't feel that Leon or anyone who has responded is throwing the seller under the bus. I think for the most part,those who are responding have been polite in holding their judgement till more is learned about the situation.
Tim Kindler

The E98 Old Put is not even close in my opinion. ALL of the other Old Puts are consistent with the color of ink, boldness, clarity around the edges of the lettering, etc. as the two that Quan posted above the Jennings example. And the green front? I'm not buying it.

The E98 card is definitely real, but the stamp was added later. I'm not saying anything against the gentleman selling the cards. For all we know the stamp could've been added in 1975, but it's not period.

The E94 Overprint lettering is all wrong and I don't think it's legit either. Look at where it says, "Eat Close's Candies" under the top line "Oh You Fan." The "Eat Close's Candies" line is suppose to end at the beginning of the N in "Oh You Fan." The line in this seller's example extends all the way to the end of the N. The text is too large in all the wrong places.



Rob

I don't feel that Leon or anyone who has responded is throwing the seller under the bus. I think for the most part,those who are responding have been polite in holding their judgement till more is learned about the situation.

Cashews, if you know what I mean...

These cards are bad. Why try to find an excuse for them?



Bill

I'll give the seller the benefit of the doubt but I know a little bit about caramel card overprints and the Old Put on the E98 is a forgery although the card appears legit. The E94 Moore is legit but the overprint on the back is all wrong. Shame...

MR holdings did respond to me last night and sent scans. Below is the scan from MR and under that is Leon's card. Of course both look different but it is in SGC holder. I have opportunity to purchase the E94 Moore but would love to hear from SGC.

I have never dealt with MR Holdings and he seems to be an OK guy.

?t=1228993814


?t=1228994003

Bill,
I agree, these cards to me are fake overprints, not the cards, but the overprints. What I meant by not throwing the seller under the bus until we know more is that we don't know if this seller is selling these, what we deam as fakes, on purpose to scam someone or by accident not knowing that they are fakes. I'll hold my judgement on the seller until all the cards are on the table per say.
Tim Kindler

Just got up and read through these posts. Real quick, when I talked to u last night I think u miss understood me. As I have not slept for 3 days as my little girl Saylor is still at Childrens Hospital with RSV. I know the guy I owned both the overprint and the R310 (bought R310 from Macrae) I sold them to MR. I had it graded so I can't answer for SGC...I was in a hurry and quickly read your posts regarding the E98. The OLD Put I have no clue on. I actually owned 2 diff overprints purchased at the Vets Show in Oct. Consigned the other to an auction house. I will check but I think SGC graded the other as well. Off to the hospital...

First off I really hope your little girl continues to get better as you said she was last night.
As I said last night I almost never call anyone very late without it being planned and I called you after 10pm, your time....(on your cell of course so you didn't have to answer if it was too late.) Maybe the R310 is ok but I still am far from convinced about the overprints.....quite far actually, SGC holder or not..... I am not saying anything with 100% certainty on purpose. My immediate thoughts on both cards stand at the moment.....

If this thread needs one more opinion, I doubt there is any chance that the Old Put and E94 overprint are real. And if I am correct that this is the first time the seller has posted on the board, this is not a good introduction.

I am going to go out on a limb here... Notice the font on the ad I posted above, "The George Close Co." appears to be the same as is on the card in question. I have looked at other cards today with the stamp on the back and have not seen one that has the same font as is in the ad or on the back of MRs card. I am talking about the "George Close" portion of the stamp only. It is my belief that if someone were to make a fake, they would use something similar to the "known" stamps. The odds of creating a stamp with the exact font as is on the ad above would seem to be nil. I am going to guess that the stamp on the card in question is an earlier version, simply based on the fact the the ad is older than the e94s.



Whats your thoughts?

A few quick points. I just spoke with SGC about this situation. They are aware and are taking another look....obviously without the card in hand though. Here is another situation. I am understanding the seller has 7 more E94 Overprints.....I would love to see scans.....regards

The more I look and think about it, it seems it would have to be real. There is just no way someone got that Font right! The odds to me are just impossible.
Its the exact same logo! Its right there. It is a fact that the Close Co. used that exact same font.

We'd like to thank the Net54 community for bringing this to our attention. We've been in contact with the original submitter of the E94 Moore. The card is being sent back to us and we will review it at that time.

We will work closely with the owner of the card to rectify the situation.

Thank you, as always, for all the input.

Brian Dwyer
SGC
1-800-742-9212

again i'm not making judgement on the e94 as i've never closely studied them, but if this variation is legit(?)...what's stopping a 3rd or 4th different font from surfacing, or an 11th or 12th different banner with the tie-in being "The George Close Co"? What process is SGC using to determine whether the stamp is authentic?

I am not speaking for SGC but I would hope they use exemplars of known ones. I know 8 of my 10 are pictured in Lipest's encyclopedia from 25 yrs ago...They were probably worth $20 each at the time so most likely they are real.....I doubt we can ever be 100% certain of anything but we can make rational judgements....I think if SGC gets back this E94 and doesn't feel comfortable with it they will undo it. It's no different than a mfg cut pre-war card that doesn't meet size requirements. They don't have to deem it trimmed to not holder it. I would guess most of us have cards, or have owned cards, we thought were good but didn't meet the requirements to be slabbed. I would still like to see the others in this group......regards

but I hope when SGC takes a second look that it doesn't knee jerk dismiss it as fake and takes the time to examine all of the evidence including the font style shown in the pic above.

You listening Brian?

Shawn,

I disagree.

I know for certain that the E98 Old Put is a FAKE stamp. In fact, I'll further and say that the card was indeed meant to deceive someone.

I'm not saying this particular person tried to deceive, but the creator of the fake stamp obviously had bad intentions.

There's not a chance that SGC could change my mind about the Old Put.

Now what are the chances that a seller of that kind of fake might have an E94 that looks similar, but is different than all the other E94 Overprints that we've seen?

Rob

I'm confused - Manos says he bought the card with the stamp raw at a show and submitted it to SGC and then sold it to MRHoldings? What about the other overstamped cards?

While you can use known exemplars, they alone do not solve the question of authenticity. I would assume that SGC studied the card thoroughly the first time. It is obvious that the font and font color are different--presumably that did not escape the graders. It is questionable to me that a faker would use a different color--why raise such an obvious flag that the card is different? It's not being touted as a rare, one of one green variation. I also concur with another poster who wondered how that ad font could be matched so well, and why not simply try and copy what is known to exist. I think there's a decent chance this overprint is real.

New discoveries continue from time to time in this hobby. They should be scrutinized, but they happen. As to the issue of what's to stop others from faking these overprints, I believe the market will help solve that. The card often has some decent value without overprint, so the faker risks ruining his sale if the "fake" is not believed. With this card, there is just as good a likelihood that many would stay away from bidding as would be "lured" in. Unless and until there is no financial incentive to fake these, it remains a possibility.

Robert,



I can not speak for the "Old Putt", I have not even seen that card. I do not see how you argue about the "Close" card though. It is my understanding that no one has seen that particular version whether fake or real, so how can some one make a fake that just so happens to match the exact same font that is on the ad. The odds of accidentally matching that same font that is on the ad just blows my mind. Also, George Close had several different stamps, which helps the likelihood of different ones being found. In other words this company did not have just one stamp or style and stuck to it, there appears to be several versions.



Its there, how can you argue that font? Can you show me another card with the same font that is on the ad? If so, then I can see that it may be a fake.

is there a method to date the ink being used? whether they be period, 1950's, 1975's etc. sgc should at least look at prior examples but i feel there could be more done? there are still 7 more out there and i feel it's just the first wave in the next years to come.

You make a few good points....here are a few others...

1. Seller is selling a poor fake E98 Old Put. NO green fronts have ever been seen and the font on back is horrible.

2. No Close stamp has ever been seen in black nor has that font been seen. (that I am aware of)

3. I am waiting to see the other 7....and my guess is they will all look similar...but that is only a guess until we see them. Another guess....we won't see them = red flag. If we do see them and they are ALL different looking then I guess we have 8 unknown ones all of the sudden found. Wow...that's great.

4. Ohio- the hotbed of fakes

5. If that Close stamp WERE real it would sell for at least 2.5x of the asking price...and I can almost guarantee more as it would only be the 2nd known.

6. I am going to go out on a limb and say SGC will review this and un-holder it.


I guess with all of those things in question it could still be real..... I have never said "100%" on purpose....

Paying high premiums for overprint stamped cards is not for everyone.

I stopped collecting them some time ago fearing that someone could make a fake stamp, or in the case below, find a real one and go to town. Pun intended

You can date many types of ink, with pen ink the easiest. On a related note, I'm in the process of starting a small company that does scientific light analysis of materials for the purpose of identifying, dating and analyzing materials like plastics, paints, etc.

For these stamped cards, provenance is important. If provenance shows an Old Put card was in a Lipset auction ten years ago, this would be evidence supporting the legitimacy. On the other hand, if a seller trimmed or altered a card yesterday, there is no provenance for the card in the current state. A trimmer won't show you where he bought the 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle, because the previous sale description would reveal that the card has since been trimmed.

Good point. Toy Town stamps have never commanded much of a premium anyway. If there is ANYONE that wants to unload all of their Old Puts and E94 overprints (that I would feel comfortable with, which is all that I have seen except the ones mentioned in this thread) I am an immediate buyer. I love collecting cards with overprints. My E97 with a Toy Town stamp was $20....I will buy more of those too...at the same price of course ....

And I wholeheartedly agree with David. Provenance is very important....There is basically none on these new crappy looking ones....

david, good to hear ur opinion.

rman--u always deliver!

(damn my pun was not as direct/sharp as yours. some may not know it's "toy town post office" and that whole delivery line was tied to that, blah now that i've had to explain that whole thing it's lost its edge, not that it was effective in the first place since these days fedex and ups also delivers )

"It is my understanding that no one has seen that particular version whether fake or real, so how can some one make a fake that just so happens to match the exact same font that is on the ad."





The exact same overprint exists. If you look a few posts up in the thread you'll see Mark's post that contains the new card and then Leon's example below. This new example (in my opinion) is a cheezy rip off of the genuine example. It's not new as far as never been seen before. New would mean new actual language. We've just never seen a distorted version before.

Now, I realize these items are very scarce and that something new to the hobby is always possible. If the fake Old Put wasn't hanging around right next to it, I might've been more open to this example being a fresh find.

Also, you're stating that the font is the same. Although similar, the size of the lettering is different. Why would maker of these take time and money to make a new one. This was a very small cache of cards at the time. I highly doubt there was two sources for this one overprint.

As far as collecting overprints and certain stamps such as toytown and the overpints mentioned in this thread, I like to think that we haven't been tricked as of yet. Even though it's merely a stamp, I feel like we will be able to identify the newer fakes whether were looking at the shade of ink of the exact size of the stamp. That Old Put stands out like a sore thumb.

Rob

Rob,



The two cards you are talking about are Leons and the actual one that is forsale. It is the card in question. Yes the size of the font is different, but the shape is the same.

Yes, there are two cards posted earlier in the thread in the same post.

Top: Card for sale

Bottom: Leon's card

So that is the only known one. (so far). If you were to make a fake, you could not unless you owned or had seen the one posted above. It is the only one that we know of. The letter type matches the ad, do you think someone used it as an example?

It is an underprint...

Oh, no. we don't go there again...

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

Please no!

Ok I have to ask what might be a real dumb question and maybe I should start a new thread but here goes.

These overprints are what? Are they not nothing more than someone taking a rubber stamp to them at some time and stamping the backs of these cards? What makes the cards more valuable with the overprints on them? (or should I say collectable) It seems to be contrary to everything I have ever seen in this hobby in that anything "added" to the card will de-value the card. What am I missing here?

I apologize for the dumb questions but I have been reading about overprints for a long time on this board and nobody ever explained what they actually were and why they are collectable. if I am left to my own assumptions I usually get myself into alot of trouble!

Thanks for your input David C.. always like to see what you have to say.. congrats on good luck with the new company!

Stamps are very cool but very risky.. I have only purchased one for the sole purpose of selling it to another that collected them..

marty

ok i just checked out leon's e94 types. each banner pretty much have different fonts, the only thing that leon's "oh you fan" have in common with the others might be the ink used. but since it's a 1/1, who's to say leon isn't the fake while this new discovery is real? this is all hypothetical of course...if you put leon's 10 along with the new "oh you fan", that might not even be the first one that jumps out at you as being fake.



i guess in the end i still can't really decide if it's real or fake, and that's why i've shied away from these. i hope leon doesn't mind me putting his 10 scan here for comparison purposes(just delete it if it's inappropriate leon).



and robert...if someone has a little hobby knowledge, contact the right people (dr cycleback/joe d. about ink and printing) a stamp can be duplicated within a year that you can't really tell the difference. i truly believe that.



to add: and these are fairly complicated stamps to me, think of all the easier stamps that can be made, niagaras d355s, e107 breisch co. stamps.

Quan,

Doesn't JC have almost all of the same E94 overprints and they look identical to the examples that Leon has?

So if I talk to David R. (Cycleback) I'll know how to duplicate an E94 overprint?

I hear what you're saying, but look how pathetic that Old Put is. I think it's harder than we think to create the exact look of the Old Put stamps that are legit.


Look, I just saw that Old Put and the E94 together and they just screamed fake, but let me say it again. I could be wrong.

As someone has already mentioned, even a tiny bit of provenance here would go a long way.

Not, "uh, I have these cards for sale."


Rob

old put is sloppy...i'm impressed with the e94 quality. getting the ink down is the hardest part, i feel the font is easier to duplicate. if the seller put the e94 by itself for $1500 in the sgc holder most wouldn't even bat an eye.

rob how about you paying me 40k next year after tax plus expenses, i'll reduce my workload and go about creating that stamp. You have all those blank e94s ready to go ...

In an earlier post, didn't Jim Manos say he owned the E94 and sent it to SGC for encapsulation? Maybe Jim can tell us where the card came from.

If these overprints are not legit, then someone was just lazy and did not spend the effort to use the correct size fonts. I imagine it would not be difficult to make overprints that better replicate the ones that were supposedly stamped closer to the time of production.

No worries about using the overprints. I hope you don't mind that I stuck the new one below the ones you listed. I guess I am biased but that one does stick out to me like the one that is out of place. Some of it could be the scan too though as it's not a good one...anywho, I do have good provenance on the one Oh You Fan I have but not real far back....It wasn't bought for a ton of money and I just don't think the reward was there for a fake...and it "feels" similar to the others....maybe I am wrong, who knows?

Leon,

Have you seen another Oh You Fan?

The short answer is "no" I have not seen another Oh You Fan card.

Let me guess, no one has seen this back either so its a fake?

not a baseball card by the way.

Shawn,

Why do you keep saying we haven't seen the back when we have?


Let me give you another example. There's plenty of Blome's E94 Overprints. They are all exactly the same. Not a little smaller. Not almost the same font, but a bit distorted.


Your argument is: It could be real.


Rob

Shawn-

While the font you found from the book is the same as the one from the seller here, I still don't know what that proves. I get your point of "why would someone try and copy this lettering from this one obscure piece found online". But isn't that font one of the most common used? Even back then? Had the seller's overprint been in an old english font or something a little less likely to be found it would seem a bit more convincing.


I think for SGC to authenticate it they will need more.

Just got in tonight and read the day's events regarding this thread.



First and foremost, Jim I hope things are improving for you and your family with your daughter's health as Leon had stated they were earlier today.



I'm going to stay out of the E94 debate because I know nothing about them.



As for the E98, it is pretty much a no brainer that it is a fake overprint. I looked and noticed something else that was strange. All 3 of mine, the Cy Young, and the Cobb all have the stamps running down the back in the correct reading order, in other words the O in OLD PUT is at the top. This fake has the O at the bottom and reads up the card.



In all the other posts that I have made regarding these cards, I have made it clear that I am not prejudging the charachter of the seller yet until more info is found out, but I do have a question that I haven't seen asked yet. Why hasn't this person come on to defend himself with his side of the story?



Leon, I believe you stated in an earlier post that you have made contact with him. Has he not posted to defend himself becasue it is something you two decided would be best to not do at this time. If it is none of my business, it is alright if you tell me so!

Tim - If I'm understanding the story correctly, MRHoldings bought the cards from Manos who says he got them at a show and then slabbed them. I'm not sure what MRHoldings would defend since this is how he bought them.

Matt,
Thanks for giving me more background. I guess even though I read through the posts, I didn't quite make those connections on the background of the cards.

Now when you said they were slabbed, you meant the E94s, but what is the story behind the E98? I'm sorry if I'm still missing something on the E98 because it is not slabbed.

Thanks Matt
Tim Kindler

Tim - I'm also not completely clear on the history - I've just pieced together bits from the thread, but my reading comprehension is lacking as well. I'm not clear which cards exactly followed that path, and also don't know about the other 7 cards being mentioned and where they came from.

It would indeed be helpful if the seller would come on and clarify some of these missing pieces.

Rob,

I am sorry, when I say back I was meaning the stamp. Again, I am only talking about the Close card. But yes, my argument is that it could be real. Dave, your font theory that the style was and is so popular that coincidently the two matched is I think far fetched.

As Leon often says, Anything is possible though.

Shawn-

Listen to my head. It's not exactly far fetched to go on the theme of the font style is fairly common. Also, unless the scan of the back of the seller's card is slightly distorted it appears the "George Close Co" and "Cambridge, Mass" font is wider than your example. I could be wrong.

I hope I am about done with this debate. I guess there has to be a tiny bit of a leap of faith on the overprints....much like any pre-war card in MINT condition ..... That being said the original poster, MR, is out of the picture. He is returning the cards in question to Jim...and Jim is sending the slabbed E94 back to SGC for a review. I have a feeling they won't like it but we shall see.

ANOTHER big problem with the new E94 OH YOU FAN is the way it is positioned on the back of the card. Every other E94 overprint I can remember seeing has the stamp, whichever one it is, positioned the same way...starting at the list of players. The new crummy looking one is positioned way too high. Again, I think it's just sloppy new work...but that is just my opinion from the scan.... As long as you do your homework I think overprints and collecting can be fun. For all of those saying how easy it is to fake these....yeah, see all of them out here and all of those "dime a dozen" overprint stamps? I can't hardly turn around without seeing a fake stamp, they are so plentiful!! sheesh....

Leon - can you clarify if all the overprinted items he had on the BST came from Jim or just the E94?

My understanding is they all came from Jim. I spoke to Mark Macrae yesterday about the R310 and he confirmed that particular one is contemporary..as he has had others that way too. The E98 and E94 didn't come from Mark....I think Jim said he got those at a show....regards

Thanks Leon - it was confusing to put the pieces together.

Leon,

Notice on the Old Cardboard link below, that there are two overprints positioned the same way as the "Oh You Fan" stamp that is in question.

The: "Your Out" and "Oppie"

http://www.oldcardboard.com/e/e1/e094/e94.asp?cardsetID=735

Unfortunately you are wrong.....those overprints on OldCardboard are mine....please keep playing....regards

edited to add...I just looked again and don't think each one is mine though I think some are...regardless, the positioning hasn't changed and the suspect E94 is still not like any of the rest, positioning-wise...

Leon,

The two I mentioned do not start at the "list of players"... They are opposite like the one in question.

Show me one overprint that goes into the blank space like the bad looking one.

Leon,



You are changing your statement now. You did not mention anything about the "blank space", but I do agree with you on that. I have not seen any stamps shifted over that much, though all of them are NOT in the exact same spot.



Perhaps I did not fully understand what you meant by "whichever one it is, positioned the same way...starting at the list of players", I thought you were talking about which end the stamp was placed on. Reading from left to right, most of the stamps are started at the top of the card. The two I mentioned plus the one in question are started at the bottom of the card. I may have this reversed, because I do not have the cards in hand. But I think you know what I mean.



Sorry if there was confusion on my part.

The E94's are a factory printed overprint that was sheet fed.

The E98's are handstamped.

Agree with Tim Kindler, all the E98's Old Put's run the same direction, I have not seen one the opposite way.

Scott

Actually it was me that changed a little bit on that issue. The bottom line is that when you look at ALL OF THE KNOW exemplars they are all fairly well centered. The bad looking one isn't. The bad looking one came with a fake Old Put, the bad looking one has black ink, the bad looking one came from Ohio....the bad looking one just looks fake.....I have handled enough of all types of pre war cards to know that when something doesn't look and feel right it usually isn't. I have sent numerous cards to SGC, with the expectation they weren't good, and they weren't. For the record I have also seen a few variations of some of the printing on some good E94 overprint expamples...but never have I seen such a poor looking one as the one we are talking about....

The one exception to these E94 Overprints are the Blomes. I do think those are a little different than the others. .....hope this helps.....

So we all agree the E98 Old Put is a fake. Good. The E94 is troubling. The reason I said the card was authentic but not the overprint was based on the fact I have owned/own several E94 overprints and they are all blue or red. I have never seen one with that color before. The font is a red flag but that aside, the color of the overprint is what bothers me.
Like a previous poster, I sold all my Old Puts because the thought of someone making a stamp and forging the overprint was too scary. (Well all except the Clarke which UPS lost for me and which scan has been used for years in the SCD book. Haven't checked this year to see if it is still there.)

Leon,

You have very legitimate points, and perhaps you are right and it is a fake.
But:
1. Your "Oh You Fan" is the only one known
2. As you can see, the Close Co. used several different versions, formats, Fonts and colors with there overprint logos
3. Coincidently, there is an ad that matches the exact same lettering style on the card in question "The George Close Co" portion, but is not seen on any of the other cards. Someone just pulled it out of a hat?
4. I think what we are dealing with here is someone who bought a "lot" of overprint and stamp cards, not really knowing what they were doing... In doing this perhaps he bought some fakes and real ones. But who knows?

"The E94's are a factory printed overprint that was sheet fed."

Scott - this is interesting. How do you know this?

I've never closely followed these stamped cards, but there are standard methods for identifying prints made from the same printing plate-- stamp in this case. It involves close examination of the printing under very high magnification. Printing plates have minute finger prints that are lost if the plate is reproduced or copied. This means if you have an overprinted card that you know is genuine (ala, it's been around a long time), you can identify overprints made from the same stamp. If the original stamp is no longer around (assumption)-- fakes are made with a new stamp--, you can definitively identify original stamps.

Of course, many copied stamps will be dubious and different to the naked eye anyway.

In short, if you can identify stamps that are known to be genuine and old, you can create a family tree from there. I don't believe they will be lost in a sea of fakes.

Also, you can test how long ink has been on paper, which is a standard and common forensic test. It is known the rates at which various inks dry, and by testing how dry is the ink, you can guestimate how long the ink has been on the paper. It's a relatively simple, straight foreword test and the difference between 90 years ago and 1 year ago would be pretty obvious. In disputed will court cases, they might want to identify the exact year brand and make of the pen used (and the FBI can do this!)-- but with a questioned stamp on a baseball card, you simply have to determine that it's been there for a good long while to be confident in the authenticity.

As already noted more than once in this thread, if there is a wave of very recent fakes, provenance establishing a card has been around since before the wave is helpful and practical evidence. Sales documentation establishing that the card was around 10 years ago doesn't prove the stamp 100 years old, but will make the owner and buyer more comfortable-- especially if faking Old Put stamps is a thing that started just this year.

Baseball card collectors often wonder aloud why anyone would pay extra for a card because it came a famous old timer collection. This thread has shown how provenance can be significant with baseball cards. Who wouldn't love right now to have documentation that their Old Put belonged to Burdick, or was purchased from the Larry Frisch catalog in 1975?

I said I was done but what the heck....it's still fun debating.

Rman- I asked Scott the same thing a few minutes ago. His answer was that since all of the known E94 Overprints, until now, are very well centered, then they most likely were not done at random with a free hand. I think that's a good point but not sure...


Shawn- You said and my responses,.....


You have very legitimate points, and perhaps you are right and it is a fake.
But:
1. Your "Oh You Fan" is the only one known

Yes, it's the only one known. It came from Tom B at a National...I think he paid about 250 each for 2 of them (different stamps) a few minutes earlier and Scott and I both bought one........but at that kind of money it's hardly a model for scamming profitability.


2. As you can see, the Close Co. used several different versions, formats, Fonts and colors with there overprint logos

True- and if you look closely this new example has the company in big letters while all of the others are small letters

3. Coincidently, there is an ad that matches the exact same lettering style on the card in question "The George Close Co" portion, but is not seen on any of the other cards. Someone just pulled it out of a hat?

Close Company had lots of advertising and lots of different fonts. Anyone can go to my site and see several different Close Company ad pieces/boxes/tins/letters........You ever do an internet search? I wouldn't call it pulling out of a hat...but that's just me.

4. I think what we are dealing with here is someone who bought a "lot" of overprint and stamp cards, not really knowing what they were doing... In doing this perhaps he bought some fakes and real ones. But who knows?

I think we are dealing with a scammer and someone trying to pull some fraud on us. Many times they think they will get over.....This board has uncovered bigger scammers than this. When you see an item that is questionable on ebay one of the first things we do is see what other things the seller is selling or buying. Today I saw a cool Babe Ruth card with a cool stamp on back. I was a bit excited. I clicked on the other things the seller was selling....right next to it was a fake M101/5 Ruth......I wasn't as excited anymore....It's experience ....Old Put bad....never before seen E94 Overprint right next to it.....same as the Ruth on ebay...

http://cgi.ebay.com/BB-Card-Babe-Ruth-Yankees-Spanky-s-Hot-Dog_W0QQitemZ310106566572

Well did I read it right that the seller has now returned what he bought from Manos and has himself went away? If thats the case then it doesn't even seem the seller had much confidence in this being legit.

that's an interesting theory by scott...but looking at the available scans some stamp goes left to right while a few right to left (i'm comparing leon's blome's/your out/oppie dildock to the ocb's scans). so it's possible one sheet may go one way and another sheet goes the other, but that would mean more examples than what we've discovered so far.

Leon,

Thank you for your input. I am well aware of many different scammers and different types of fake cards. And believe me, there is not much out there that makes me madder than someone trying to scam me or anyone else. I have no interest in the "Oh You Fan" card, nor will I ever. I do not own or will ever own a stamped or overprint card on purpose. I have to say though, the overprint just seems right to me? Hopefully I am wrong in my opinion, and I just end up looking like a idiot:) I am not the brightest guy on the block, but if I am going to make a fake I am going to make one that looks like the others. Also, because you own a fake does not make all of your other cards fake too. Leon, as many cards you have owned I would venture to say a few have come across your hands. This hobby is just to popular, that crooks are just bound to jump in! It sucks, thats why knowledge is king!

Dave,
I would probably get rid of the cards myself after reading this thread... I would probably burn um!

"Rman- I asked Scott the same thing a few minutes ago. His answer was that since all of the known E94 Overprints, until now, are very well centered, then they most likely were not done at random with a free hand. I think that's a good point but not sure... "

hmmmmm....

This seems a bit of a stretch to me. Switching plates, inks, etc at the press for different ads? I'm thinking someone with a steady hand at the company.

I try to put all my stamps straight on my Christmas cards. No one accused me of being an automatic stamping machine

Overprints aren't for everyone. I happen to collect backs and believe overprints (I don't collect underprints) are really neat and colorful. Much more than common set collecting...but that's what makes this hobby fun. Do what makes you happy. So far I have one email from a board member wanting to sell an Old Put at fair market. I am only in the market for cards that folks think are not good (and I think are) and at prices that reflect that OR for one(s) I don't own. Fair market on all but the Blomes is about $2500 and on the Blomes maybe $800-$1400...depending on grade etc......

As far as your comment about if you were a scammer you would make a stamp that looked more like another one....well, for ALL OF THOSE collectors that think they are so easy.....show me one. I offer that if it was that easy we would be having this discussion more often and there would be more cards we have this debate over. It seems like the folks who shout the loudest never really have anything to show....Show me the fake stamps and overprints??....anyone, Bueller?....crickets .....chirp chirp....


Also Shawn....you are absolutely correct. I have probably had a a dozen or so counterfeits that I bought unknowingly. I have had about 2-3 that I couldn't return for a refund with a total value of under $400....So I don't think that's too bad. I admit to having learned the hard way a few times....I could be wrong on this E94 but I am not throwing in the towel yet....Lets see what SGC says when they re-evaluate it....Hopefully, Jim or SGC will let us know...

Scott and Tim,


Leon has an Old Put in his personal collection that runs the opposite way.
I've seen another one that is flipped around too.

Rob

That is my question also. From MR Holdings email to me, he stated i was first in line to get the E94 Moore. Well, if the card comes back and SGC says its legit then sell me the card for $1,000. He was ready and willing 2 days ago.

I have emailed MR Holdings and requested other scans of the 7 cards with other overprints but as i suspected, no reply's.

Anyway, i suspect like most others that SGC will not be returning the card.

Again I don't know if this is a question only JC can answer, but wasn't there like 8 or so of the same overprints on his website including an Oh You Fan?

Were those the same examples as Leon's?



Rob

Leon...looks like you can make any custom stamp at this link, just make a microsoft word doc. and send upload. I never tried it and don't know how good it will look.


http://orders.rubberstamps.net/FixedSize.aspx?ProductID=IS-16&qty=1

Mark- I suspect the other 7 will look the same and is the reason we haven't seen them. Also, as for the stamp making. No doubt there are millions of places to get stamps made. I just think they will come out looking like the one in question.....It's the first, and probably not the last, I have seen that I have serious doubts about...and where is the provenance? As Todd pointed out provenance isn't an end all but it sure helps me to know that 8 of my 10 are in Lipset's encyclopedia from 25 yrs ago....Since MR is returning them to Jim I think it will be up to Jim to sell them as he will be the owner....but that is for those guys to say specifically. If it is a good stamp then that is fine with me. As I already have an OH YOU FAN I won't really need it to feel complete ....


Rob- I think JC had/has about 6 different and I am sure he didn't have an OH YOU FAN.......He and I used to talk about them all of the time....

Mark-

Should probably just consider yourself lucky at this point.

Very, Very true....