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Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 12 2008 at 4:37 PM
Ted Zanidakis  (Login tedzan)

 
I do not think that too many Net54ers will argue with me that Eddie Foster is probably the toughest of the 48 cards in the
Southern League (SL) series. It seems that all SL players were not equally printed.
First, here are the four different SL represented......

1st release......with Brown HINDU, OLD MILL, PIEDMONT backs

South Atlantic League (10 subjects)
Southern League (20 Subjects)
Virginia League (12 Subjects)

2nd release......with OLD MILL, PIEDMONT backs

Texas League (6 Subjects)

Now, a close 2nd in scarcity to Foster is teammate, George Paige. These 2 players were on Charleston of the So. Atl. Lge.
This League had difficulties which resulted in a "split-season". The 1st half of the 1909 season was won by Chattanooga.
On 7/5/09 the Charleston franchise became the Knoxville team. I'd venture to say that this change caused Foster and Paige
to be short-printed.
In addition, Kiernan and Manion were involved in mid-season trades, as a consequence of the changes in this League. These
two are also tougher to find than most of the other SL cards. At the end of the 1909 season Chattanooga and Augusta (the
winner of the 2nd half) played a League Series and Chattanooga won 4 of the 7 game series.



From the Virginia Lge. Revelle is tough to find. He was an outstanding pitcher for Richmond in 1909 with a 29-11 W-L record.

From the Southern League, the three New Orleans guys are quite tough....Breitenstein, Fritz, and Reagan.

To summarize, here is my list of the top 12 tougher SL cards (regardless of backs) in order of scarcity......

Foster
Paige
Fritz
Revelle
Hart (Little Rock)
Manion
Breitenstein
Greminger
Ellam
Reagan
Kiernan
LaFitte

Some of you may differ, and I welcome any debate.


Regarding the very tough Brown HINDU backs (possible on the 1st 42 players in this series). The first 42 SL cards were issued
shortly after the general 150 Series cards were available (Spring of 1909). This fact is confirmed by the date of the Charleston
players mentioned in the above story. The very 1st SL cards were printed with the HINDU backs.

There are 34 of the 42 SL cards that have been confirmed with the HINDU back. The following 8 have not......

Hart (Little Rock)....No Print
Hart (Montgomery).....No Print
King......No Print
Lentz......No Print
Orth.......Possible Print
Rockenfeld......Possible Print
Seitz......Possible Print
Westlake......No Print


TRIVIA quiz......

In this HINDU adv. three SL cards are displayed....one is incorrectly pictured....who will be the 1st one to identify this error ?

And, who is the actual BB subject shown ? ?


[linked image]


TED Z


 
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Adam
(Login aamoniz)

Re: Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 12 2008, 4:44 PM 

Ted Breitenstein is incorrectly pictured. The actual card has him throwing in the other direction.

ps- A lot of people also seem to think Persons is a tough SLer.


Edited to add: My guess is Cy Young, bare hand shows, is the BB player shown.


    
This message has been edited by aamoniz on Dec 12, 2008 5:00 PM


 
 

dan mckee
(Login danmckee)

Re: Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 12 2008, 4:46 PM 

Ted, I thought you swore off this board??

 
 

J Hull
(Login jimonym)

Re: Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 12 2008, 5:29 PM 

Hi Ted.

Out of your list of 12 toughies, 5 of the guys played the full 1909 season with their pictured team. These 7 did not:



Foster is pictured with Charleston but no one by that name played for Charleston in 1909.


Paige began the season with Charleston and then was traded to New Orleans. His first game with New Orleans was July 18th, but he was probably traded around the beginning of the month, as there were a couple weeks of wrangling over the transaction and the matter went to the National Commission for a ruling.


Fritz began the season with New Orleans and then was traded to Memphis. His last game with New Orleans was June 5th and first with Memphis was June 7th.


Manion began the season with Columbia and then was traded to Jacksonville in early July.


Ellam is pictured with Nashville but actually played the season for Birmingham.


Reagan I believe is actually Steve Reagan and not Ed Reagan. Ed was a utilityman for New Orleans who was released to the Liverpool, Ohio team in early May. Steve played with New Orleans until July 18th. The Sporting Life reports that he was soon thereafter benched for indifferent play, and he didnt appear on the field again for New Orleans in 1909.


Kiernan began the season with Columbia, then went with that team to Knoxville, and then later in the season was traded to Jacksonville.


So of these guys, Paige, Fritz, Manion, and Kiernan changed teams. Reagan was benched and may have been released from the team. And Foster and Ellam were mixups, either with the wrong team designation or the wrong name.



Jamie


    
This message has been edited by jimonym on Dec 12, 2008 5:37 PM


 
 
Ted Zanidakis
(Login tedzan)

JAMIE H

December 12 2008, 6:07 PM 

Thanks for posting all that info. I'm aware of all these details; however, I thought my post
was long enough. I'm glad you posted all these trades.

And yes, I tried to find Foster in several of my Reach Guides of the 1908-1910 era....he remains a mystery.

Here is my question to you regarding Foster....is the Foster in this set Edward Lee Foster or Edward Cunningham Foster ?

Regards,

TED Z


 
 

Jeremy
(Login nashvols)

re : Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 12 2008, 7:15 PM 

Ted - Is the Breitenstein card a pic of his teammate, Reagan?

Jamie - Maybe you can help me understand something... How in the Wide World of Sports did Ellam get on a T206 card mfg in 09-11, when he played and managed Nashville in 1916-20 ?

Could Ellam have possibly played for a short time in Nashville in the 09-11 time period (B'Ham is a few hours South) as he did in the 1918 season when he played/managed Nashville after stops in Indianapolis(Amer Assoc) and Pittsburgh (National League)all in the same year?

Something seems off to me... I realize the Ellam picture was taken from an earlier picture I believe from Pennsylvania playing days, possibly Rookie year in any type of organized ball... Could it be that Ellam possibly played for both B'Ham and Nashville during the T206 mfg time period ? I understand this could be a error on his jacket and it should possibly say B'Ham, but I wonder since he came to Nashville a few years later... (These players bounced around, etc..)

Just terribly curious... If we have an entire season of box scores for B'Ham or Nashville, I am sure we could answer this all to important question !

Thanks -

~ Jeremy ~

 
 

J Hull
(Login jimonym)

Re: Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 12 2008, 9:57 PM 

Ted,
I suspected you already knew all that.
As to which Foster it is...

Edward Lee Foster was 29 years old in 1909. Edward Cunningham Foster was just 22 years old in 1909. To me, the player pictured on the T206 card looks more like a 22-year old than a 29-year old. But, in this case, the appearances are deceiving.

Edward Cunningham Foster never got anywhere near the South Atlantic League:
1906 = Coffeeville (Kansas State League)
1907 = Harrisburg, PA (Tri-State League)
1908 = Williamsport (Tri-State League)
1909 = Jersey City (Eastern League)
1910 = New York (AL)
1911 = Rochester (Eastern League)

But Edward Lee Foster did:
1906 = Columbus and Brunswick (Georgia State League)
1907 = Charleston (South Atlantic League)
1908 = Jacksonville (South Atlantic League) and Cleveland (AL)
1909 = Did not play
1910-1912 = New Haven (Connecticut State League)

So where was Edward Lee in 1909? He went to spring training with Cleveland's regulars and other recruits. But he had injury troubles. The April 10th Sporting Life reports that "Ed Foster of Cleveland is laid up with a very lame pitching arm." A week later comes the news that Foster was among eight players that manager Lajoie was asking waivers on: "Of these, Foster has been sent to Charleston, South Atlantic League."

So there's the answer. It's Edward Lee Foster, who went to Charleston just before the start of the South Atlantic League season, but was injured, so badly, it seems, that he was unable to pitch at any point during the season. Eventually he was recalled to Cleveland, at the beginning of July, perhaps for another tryout to see if his arm was recovered. But he never made it into a game and by the end of the month had been, again according to The Sporting Life, "turned over" to Toledo. But he couldn't get into a game with them either.



Jeremy,
I've looked at those boxscores, and they show that Ellam played from April 15th (opening day in the Southern League) until September 11th, all with Birmingham (141 games). He was then purchased or called up by Cincinnati and made his major league debut on September 18th, finishing the season with ten games played in the NL. I have no idea why he was pictured with Nashville, because you're right, he didn't (so far as I have been able to tell) put on their uniform until 1916. I've always assumed it was just a mistake by the T206 artists that later became a coincidence when Ellam actually joined Nashville.

As Ted has amply proved elsewhere, the cards of the Southern Leaguers were created and released in 1909. If you look at the Southern Leaguers (meaning Southern, South Atlantic, Virginia, and Texas Leaguers) pictured in the set, aside from the clear mistake (Ellam) every other player is pictured with the team he began the 1909 season with, strongly suggesting that the cards were designed very early in the season. No other league (AL, NL, American Association, or Eastern League) is like that. All of those leagues have at least a few players pictured with a team that they joined after the start of the 1909 season. So the Southern Leaguers were clearly some of the first cards drawn up.


 
 
Frank Wakefield
(Login Greatwake)
Registered Users

Re: Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 12 2008, 10:15 PM 

For years, it has seemed to me, that to discern who was in the white border tobacco set, and why, it was necessary to see what was happening in baseball in 1905, 1906, 1907, 1908, and 1909.

If that is done, then Beckley, Cravath, and McGinnity are obvious. And there are many more.

And that is why I've always thought that Edward Cunningham Foster was who was intended to be depicted because of being in Jersey City in 1909... that seemed more significant of an event to folks in the greater New York area than Edward Lee Foster's exploits in the South Atlantic League. At least until now.

I now think I've been mistaken. J Hull's explanation is compelling. I'm won over!! That must be Edward Lee Foster. Thanks!!!

Great thread, guys!!

 
 
George Leidemer
(Login LEIDEMEG)

Other Sl's'

December 12 2008, 10:53 PM 

Ted, I guess everyone's personal experience differs, but to me personally, I have got to rank shaughnessy up there as a close 2nd or 3rd to Foster. I have owned all the others, most of them like Lafitte, Ellam, Fritz and Reagan multiple times, all tough, but still to this day and it blows my mind..of all the SL'S the one I have never owned is Shaughnessy. Again...could just be my experience but always felt his cards when I was going after them sold for a premium leading me to think he was as tough as or close to Foster

George




To summarize, here is my list of the top 12 tougher SL cards (regardless of backs) in order of scarcity......

Foster
Paige
Fritz
Revelle
Hart (Little Rock)
Manion
Breitenstein
Greminger
Ellam
Reagan
Kiernan
LaFitte

 
 
Frank Wakefield
(Login Greatwake)
Registered Users

Re: Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 12 2008, 11:04 PM 

Years ago Beckett had Shaughnessy and Perdue at slight premiums over the other southern leaguers. So I got a Shaughnessy early on. And without any trouble I picked up a second one... I thought they were easy to get. I sold on several years ago. Sold the other a few months ago. And bought one a few weeks ago. I don't think Shaugnessy ranks up there as one of the more difficult SLers. But I understand that some folks think as George does, above.

 
 
George Leidemer
(Login LEIDEMEG)

Frank,

December 12 2008, 11:17 PM 

Thanks for sharing. Probably just my experience and could be as easy to find as the others. Just felt whenever I won items from auctions houses of southern league lots or searched for sl's on ebay, shaughnessy was never around.





    
This message has been edited by LEIDEMEG on Dec 12, 2008 11:25 PM


 
 
Ted Zanidakis
(Login tedzan)

GEORGE L

December 12 2008, 11:24 PM 

I posted a thread not to long ago on why I thought Shaughnessy was tough. And, it isn't because this
card was short-printed (say as Foster must have been).

Here is the link to that thread......

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1223483635/Why+would+the+T206+Shaughnessy


TED Z


 
 
Ted Zanidakis
(Login tedzan)

Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 12 2008, 11:27 PM 

JAMIE H

Thanks for so elaborately resolving the mystery of the Foster card. That is truly some great
research.

ADAM and JEREMY

Yes the Breitenstein card depicted in the HINDU adv. is not the actual picture of him. But, it
is neither CYoung or Reagan.

I see this pix as only one distinct Subject in the T206 set....try again.


OK everyone, let's not forget that we still have 8 cards to be confirmed with HINDU backs in
the Southern League series. Four of which, I think are NO PRINTS......

Hart (Little Rock)
Lentz (Little Rock)
King (Danville)
Westlake (Danville)

And, these 4 are possible PRINTS......

Hart (Montgomery)
Orth
Rockenfeld
Seitz

Does anyone here have any of these with HINDU backs ?

BRIAN W

Pardon me if my SL HINDU No-Print info slightly differs with yours.


TED Z


 
 
George Leidemer
(Login LEIDEMEG)

Ted

December 12 2008, 11:34 PM 

Thanks, missed that thread the first time around, great info.

 
 
barry arnold
(Login ethicsprof)

SL

December 12 2008, 11:47 PM 

Ted et al

From my world, Hart, Hart, Orth, Rockenfeld, Seitz are Piedmonts;
Lentz, King, and Westlake are Old Mills.
No Hindus.

great research, T206 scholars!

best,

barry

 
 

Adam
(Login aamoniz)

Re: Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 12 2008, 11:55 PM 

My only other guess is McGraw (finger in air). In looking at that image, my focus is on the nose and amount of chin/neck that shows.

 
 
Frank Wakefield
(Login Greatwake)
Registered Users

Re: Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 13 2008, 12:45 AM 

Ted, I have only one SLer with a Hindu back, Molesworth, Birmingham. So no help with your list.


George, you're with the majority thinking Shaughnessy is more difficult to locate... he just wasn't for me. Since he was prominent in baseball for many years, folks gathered his cards while the others were subject to being discarded. So that would have put a bit of demand on them, but increased their survivability. One may well offset the other.


I had a near set of 512... and when I was gathering them, I decided that I needed to go for the SLers early on. Hart Little Rock was the 41st one I obtained, Archie Persons was the 42nd, LaFitte was the 43rd, Helm was the 44th, Foster the 45th, McCauley the 46th, Cranston the 47th, and Lipe was the 48th. I had found other Lipe cards that were either in too good of a condition for me to collect, or much too worn.

I tried to find Revelle and Breitenstein early on, so I gathered those two before I tried to get the SLers complete. Both had interesting careers. So maybe they're among the more difficult...

I think Persons and Foster are among the most difficult.

 
 
Ted Zanidakis
(Login tedzan)

ADAM M

December 13 2008, 9:35 AM 

You got it....it is McGraw (finger in air) pix with the Breitenstein caption on it.

This advertisement ran in the Summer of 1909, so I wonder why the mix-up ?


TED Z


 
 

Brian Weisner
(Login BRIANKW)

Re: Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 13 2008, 10:17 AM 


Hi Guys,

I disgaree... Its Breitenstein with a flipped image.... McGraw's head isn't tilted enough and the collar isn't wide enough. Besides his head is way to far away from the border. Breitenstein's hat with stripe and part of "NO", as well as the nose and facial features all fit...



Be well Brian


    
This message has been edited by BRIANKW on Dec 13, 2008 10:19 AM


 
 

J Hull
(Login jimonym)

Re: Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 13 2008, 12:25 PM 

Here's some background on a few more players who have been mentioned as difficult cards.

Ted's covered Shaughnessy

Frank mentioned:
Perdue -- was with Nashville from the opening to the end of the season, so no discernible reason why he should have been printed in fewer quantities.

Persons -- was with Montgomery until July 24th and then put on waivers, picked up by Little Rock and first played for them on August 1st.

Helm -- began the season with Columbus and then at some point was traded to Chattanooga (I don't have the date for the trade).

McCauley -- actually spent the preseason exhibition period with Jersey City but then was cut and ended up catching on with Portsmouth and was with that team on the opening day of the Virginia League season. Later in the season he was traded to Norfolk (dont have the date).

Cranston -- spent all season with Memphis, so no reason why he should have had fewer cards printed.

Lipe -- managed Richmond all season, so again no reason for scarcity.


While we're thinking about guys that are tough, why is it that these guys are not tougher than they are?

Orth -- was manager of Lynchburg but resigned and left the club on July 15th.
Carey and Violat both had midseason team changes, but are among the most easily-found Southern Leaguers.

Jamie

 
 
 
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