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Lee Behrens
(Login bowlingshoeguy)

Re: Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 13 2008, 1:00 PM 

I agree it is Breitenstein with a reverse negative.

Great Thread,

Lee

 
 
barry arnold
(Login ethicsprof)

why

December 13 2008, 1:32 PM 

Jamie,
very helpful and interesting delineation.

many thanks,

best,
barry

 
 
Frank Wakefield
(Login Greatwake)
Registered Users

Re: Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 13 2008, 3:09 PM 

Jamie...


I don't think Perdue was short printed.


I do think there was a bit of a hunt for Perdue cards after he went up to the major leagues... He was an extremely interesting fellow. Best game he ever pitched in the major leagues was opening day against Mr. McGraw's Giants, Mathewson pitched. Hub Perdue pitched a 3 hit shutout as Boston beat the Giants. It was April 15, 1912. But did Hub get great headlines the next day in the newspaper? No. The papers were full of stuff about a possible shipwreck at sea... the Titanic.

Hub started the 1914 season in Boston. The team lost more than they won. Manager Stallings arrives, and Boston starts winning. Stallings trades Hub to St. Louis, and Hub was mad as hell for years, because he was traded away from a share of all of that 1914 World Series money.


Hub would board a train in Gallatin each year to go to spring training. He'd arrive back by train in October, usually broke. His dad, a frugal fellow, could not believe that Hub spent all of those big baseball dollars and had nothing saved for winter. So one season, just before Hub departs, his dad tells him that when he comes home at season's end his dad will match, dollar for dollar, each dollar Hub has saved. The season goes by, Hub rides the train home, and is broke. In town, before going home, he stops by the bank and borrows $2000 from a banker friend. Hub goes home and greats his dad. Eventually dad asks Hub if he saved anything, and without a word out comes the $2000 onto the table. Dad goes to a tin and counts out the matching $2000. Hub eventually tells dad the truth and returns the money.


I think some Hub cards were gathered because he was with that Boston team in 1914. He had a long career, mainly with Nashville, so folks would have been more likely to keep his card. I think these are reasons why there should be more of them, not fewer. I think guys who left baseball and forgotten about were more likely to have their cards discarded. After baseball Hub was in local politics, and was elected County Clerk of Sumner County Tennessee (Gallatin is the county seat) several times. Maybe that put a demand on his card that got them out of collectors hands and into the hands of locals. I don't believe that, but Dr. Beckett must have had a reason for tweeking the price of his cards.

 
 
Ted Zanidakis
(Login tedzan)

BRIAN W

December 14 2008, 11:08 AM 

Believe it or not....my 1st thought on the Breitenstein pix was that they reversed the image.

But, then I had 2nd thoughts....one should always listen to his 1st thought.

TRIVIA quiz....what remarkable event is Ted Breitenstein in the record books for ?


[linked image]


TED Z




 
 

Jeremy
(Login nashvols)

Re: Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 14 2008, 11:52 AM 

Ted - Breit's No Hitter in 1st Major League start, right ?!?... But from a Minor League perspective I think he might be most famous for having his best year pitching in 1908 for NO only to lose the last game of the season to the Nashville Vols 0-1 and his team lose the Southern Association Crown by winning percentage of .571 to .573 --


 
 

Brian Weisner
(Login BRIANKW)

Re: Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 14 2008, 12:08 PM 


Hi Jeremy,
Great answer, but wrong...smiley...
His claim to fame.... He coached TedZ in Little League....


Be well Brian... I'm laughing out loud in the parking lot and people are watching...



 
 

Jeremy
(Login nashvols)

Re : Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 14 2008, 3:40 PM 

You almost got me Brian ! You know, I was going to answer that way, but Ted mentioned "in the record books," so I deferred to the more commonly known No-Hitter in 1st major league start, since Ted and Breit probably did not make the record books! See Smiley man, below...

happy.gif

Be well Jeremy

 
 
Ted Zanidakis
(Login tedzan)

JEREMY

December 15 2008, 11:56 AM 

You are the TRIVIA King......

Ted Breitenstein pitched a No-Hitter in his 1st Major League start on October 4, 1891 with the
St Louis Browns.

TED Z


 
 
Ted Zanidakis
(Login tedzan)

Hey BRIAN Wise--ner ?

December 15 2008, 12:23 PM 

Funny....but, do you realize how close you are to truth with that "funny" ?

Here is Frank O'Rourke (from the 1933 Goudey set). Frank and Ted Breitenstein probably crossed
paths in the Minors.

Frank was a utility infielder for six Major Lge. teams from 1912-1931. I think he has the record for
being the youngest starting BB player (at age 17) in the NL.

When he retired from BB he became a NY Yankees scout, and lived in NJ. During 1954-1957, Frank
was our High School BB coach....there was no Little League then in our town.

happy.gif happy.gif....HA....HA....the last laugh is mine....happy.gif happy.gif

[linked image]
[linked image]


TED Z


 
 

Doug
(Login doug45121)

Re: Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 15 2008, 1:32 PM 

"I think he has the record for
being the youngest starting BB player (at age 17) in the NL."

Wasn't Joe Nuxhall 16 when he debuted?

 
 

Brian Weisner
(Login BRIANKW)

Re: Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 15 2008, 1:32 PM 


Hi Ted,
I was wondering when you were going to laugh....

Have a great day. Be well Brian


PS He must have been a good teacher, as you made it to the Majors on your T206 card...

 
 

Rob D.
(Login wolfie51sb)

Re: Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 15 2008, 1:35 PM 

Nuxhall was 15 years, 316 days old when he made his major-league debut.

 
 
Ted Zanidakis
(Login tedzan)

Hey BRIAN W

December 15 2008, 2:39 PM 

I was the star Rightfielder in HS.....big on defense, short on offense (except a well-placed bunt
and hit many Triples to the opposite field).

My arm was my big advantage....I could accurately throw a BB 250+ feet on a line; thus, I had
many PutOuts; and saved a few games at that.

However, not good enough for the local semi-pro league.

Be good ole buddy,

TED Z


 
 
Scot
(Login sreader3)

Re: Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 15 2008, 6:00 PM 


Very interesting thread.

Any theories on why KING and WESTLAKE are the easiest southern leaguers to obtain?

Any connection to the fact that they are both depicted with Danville?

(I checked and Danville did not win the VL championship in 1908 or 1909--so that would not seem to account for it).

Any connection to the fact that they are two of only a handful of Hindu no-prints among the 42 South Atlantic League, Southern Association and Virginia League subjects?

Could it be that these two were released along with the six Texas Leaguers in the 350 series--and thus (along with the six Texas Leaguers) experienced an extended print run in that series?

Jamie, Ted, Brian--anyone?

EDITED IN SEVERAL ATTEMPTS TO REDUCE WINDOW SIZE


    
This message has been edited by sreader3 on Dec 15, 2008 6:24 PM


 
 
Ted Zanidakis
(Login tedzan)

SCOT R

December 15 2008, 7:30 PM 

Thanks for returning this thread on topic. Lets examine the list of (so far) unconfirmed HINDU Southern
Leaguers (SL)......

Hart (Little Rock)
Lentz (Little Rock)
King (Danville)
Westlake (Danville)

I'm almost certain that Danville and Little Rock players were not printed with Hindu backs. I think Brian W
will disagree with me regarding King. And, Brian is certainly our expert on this category; perhaps, he will
chime in on this.

And, these 2 also fall into the No-PRINT category.

Hart (Montgomery)
Orth


So, that leaves us with these two........

Rockenfeld
Seitz......led the Virginia League in batting in 1909 with a BA = .328

All this, if true, neatly conforms to a basic common denominator of six Subjects in the printing process
of the SL cards. Consider the Texas Lge. Subjects, there are only 6. Therefore, we can expect that 36
Subjects were printed with HINDU backs.


TED Z



    
This message has been edited by tedzan on Dec 19, 2008 4:16 PM


 
 

Brian Weisner
(Login BRIANKW)

Re: Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 15 2008, 7:56 PM 


Hi Ted,
Actually.... I now believe that only 34 Southern Leaguers were printed with Hindu backs...

Harry Bay Nashville
Bill Bernhard Nashville
Ted Breitenstein New Orleans
Scoops Carey Memphis
Cad Coles Augusta
Bill Cranston Memphis
Roy Ellam Nashville
Ed Foster Charleston
Charlie Fritz New Orleans
Ed Greminger Montgomery
Tom Guiheen Portsmouth
J. Ross Helm Columbus
Gordon Hickman Mobile
Bock Hooker Lynchburg
Ernie Howard Savannah
A. O. (Dutch) Jordan Atlanta
J.F. Kiernan Columbia
James Lafitte Macon
Perry Lipe Richmond
George Manion Columbia
Pat McCauley Portsmouth
Carlton Molesworth Birmingham
Dom Mullaney Jacksonville
William Otey Norfolk
George Paige Charleston
Hub Perdue Nashville
Arch Persons Montgomery
Ed Reagan New Orleans
Dutch Revelle Richmond
Ray Ryan Roanoke
Shag Shaughnessy Roanoke
Sid Smith Atlanta
Woodie Thornton Mobile
Juan Violat Jacksonville

These 4 were thought to exist:
Frank King Danville
Charles Seitz Norfolk
Ike Rockenfeld Montgomery
James Westlake Danville

But in my opinion do not.... I thought I saw a Rockenfeld a few years ago on EBay, but after doing a bit of research think I was mistaken.

Be well Brian

PS Ted T206's are never neat and tidy.... 36 would be so much easier than 34.......






 
 

J Hull
(Login jimonym)

Re: Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 15 2008, 9:52 PM 

Scot,

You might be on to something. It may very well be that the eight Hindu no-prints and the commonness of King and Westlake are related.

If I can use your data from the 3rd edition of Inside T206 to make the case...

Here are the eight no-print candidates and their rank in terms of commonness among the 42 Southern, Virginia, and South Atlantic Leaguers:

Westlake = 1/42 (easiest to find out of the 42 cards)
Seitz = 3/42
Rockenfeld = 4/42
Hart (Montgomery) = 5/42
Orth = 7/42
King = 8/42
Lentz = 17/42
Hart (Little Rock) = 37/42 (sixth most difficult to find)


Lentz and Hart (LR) are outliers here, but it's rather interesting, I think, that Westlake, Seitz, Rockenfeld, Hart (M), Orth, and King are all among the eight easiest cards to find. Which cards are most common or most scarce is a bit fuzzy to figure out, but there's at least a sense that the easiest to find also happen to not have been printed with Hindu backs. In general. The Texas Leaguers aren't so neat though, and if there's a connection between these eight cards and the six Texas Leaguers, their relative commonness doesn't seem to be part of it.

As I mentioned somewhere above, Orth left his team in mid July, so it would seem odd that his card would be a holdover for a longer print run. But T206 is full of bigger oddities.

Jamie


    
This message has been edited by jimonym on Dec 16, 2008 8:42 AM


 
 

Brian Weisner
(Login BRIANKW)

Re: Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 16 2008, 9:12 AM 


Hi Jamie, Scot, and Ted,
I have always believed that the upcoming release of the T210 series had quite a bit to do with the shortage of many of the Southern League cards. I haven't had time to track every card, but when you consider that the 8 Southern League "proofs" were almost all issued in the T210 series it seems to make sense. Of the 8 proofs, 6 of these guys were star players in 1909, making them a shoe in for the T210 set, but a little late for inclusion in the T206 set that consisted of mostly poses and players from the 1908 season.
Let's take a closer look at the 8 "proofs":
Alcock Chattanooga
Meek Chattanooga
Lee Jacksonville
Roth Jacksonville
Dwyer Jacksonville
Osteen Montgomery
Pepe Montgomery
Mayberry Danville


The Chattanooga team which entered the South Atlantic Association in 1909 is probably the best example; they dominated the first half of 1909 with a 45-16 record, but aren't represented in the T206 set at all. Obviously, the proofs of Alcock, who batted .349 in 1909 finishing 2nd in the League to Joe Jackson, and Meek another Chattanooga slugger would have been excellent choices for a "second SL series".

The Jacksonville club dominated the league in 1908 and thus have many players included in the T206 set, but in early 1909 many of the stars were traded and the club fell to 7th place. The only remaining veterans from the Jacksonville squad in 1909 were Lee, Roth, and Dwyer who were probably also slated for a "second SL series"...

I don't have time to finish my thoughts on the other 3, but will try to get around to it this afternoon.
Anyone interested, should read Olbermann's article in the December 2000 issue of VCBC, as it is a wealth of information.

Be well Brian

 
 
Anonymous
(Login tedzan)

BRIAN W

December 16 2008, 10:44 AM 

I think you are onto to something here with the 1910 OLD MILL Series. And, if you don't mind, I'll add the
1910 RED SUN (T211) Series into this mix.

I think you will find it interesting that the Senator Russell original T-card collection (on display at the Univ.
of Georgia) includes a huge amount of T210's (besides his 497-card T206 set which includes a Joe Doyle
error card and the Ty Cobb back card).

The 75 Subjects in the Red Sun set include many of the So. Lgers in the T210 Series 8 issue....neither of
these sets include the following:

Hart (Little Rock)
King (Danville)
Lentz (Little Rock)
Orth (Lynchburg)
Rockenfeld (Montgomery )
Westlake (Danville)

Very interesting....however, Seitz is in these sets....I still think there is a possibility of finding Seitz with
a HINDU back.

Great stuff, Brian.

TED Z



    
This message has been edited by tedzan on Dec 16, 2008 4:10 PM


 
 

John
(Login wonkaticket)

Re: Why the scarcity of certain T206 Southern Leaguers ?

December 16 2008, 11:03 AM 

[linked image]


 
 
 
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