Rec'd the Winter 2008 SGC Collector Magazine today with the article on these 6 recently discovered cards. Is it just me but does the photo on the Dazzy Vance card look like Burleigh Grimes instead of Ol' Daz?
Dennis, fair enough. I'm not sure how this will turn out but here's a scan of the magazine photo.

not dazzy,he has a unique "look". you are right,does look more like grimes

WOW!!! That's an awesome card, who are the other players from that set that have been discovered? That's a new Dazzy Vance RC to go after now........

Six cards according to the article; Ruth, Dugan, Heilmann, Gandil, Gleason and Vance. But, I don't think that's Vance. If that's not Grimes I need new glasses for Christmas.

interesting that in 1920 (the issue of the cards) vance was not in the major leagues. perhaps he was a big star in the minors?

1. The year is incorrect.

2. The name is incorrect.

I'd say #1. Since Vance had a few games in 1916 and 1918 but didn't even get back to the majors until 1922, I'd guess that the card's year is misattributed.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

i too, thought that the year of issue was wrong but gandil was out of baseball by 1920. so this clouds the issue date a little.

That is Grimes for sure, and it is correct that 1922 would seem to be the first year that it would make sense for Vance to be in a card set. Having a supposedly disgraced player like Gandil in a set at that point sounds a little fishy to me...where were these found?

Are we sure this is a legit original item? Dan.

www.danmckee.com/pictures/types001.jpg>

Did you notice that all these cards have a different front. Perhaps their from different years. Frank

Different years of issue is a possibility. There is more than one version of the offer on the back. The cards are attributed to a company in western Canada which existed in the early 1920s and even though Vance was not in the majors in 1920, he was a regular in the PCL. 1920 is the year that fits based on Gandil's presence (PCL connection as well) and Ruth's appearance as a Yankee.
The Vance card is a different size and could easily have been issued at a later date and the player appears to be in pin stripes (Vance was briefly with the Yankees before 1922).

Why are you sure the picture is of Grimes? Does someone have the actual photo? Is there an early image of Vance for comparison (most of the photos I am familiar with are him as an old man)?

Can someone post pictures of the remaining cards?

What Dan said.
-Rhett

Grimes

Vance

Being one of the few who has held the raw cards in my hands and examined them at length, I can assure both Dan and Rhett that they are legitimate, albeit quite rare or possibly one-of-a-kind, much like many other hobby issues such as the recently discovered 1912 W-UNC Strip cards of Wagner and Young, the 1904 Allegheny "game" cards, the 1888 Gypsy Queen California League card, D303 Mother's Bread, or the Alpha Photo-Engraving Baltimore Orioles.

I should also mention (not sure if it's in the SGC article) that the provenance is interesting in that the cards were originally part of an extensive collection of vintage baseball cards and rare coins that made their way into the hobby through a Canadian coin dealer in the 1970s.

ok I just got a warm friendly email from Mr. Wentz. So my apologies to the Wentz brothers as I did not know they found them nor have I researched any provenance. I just don't like the looks of the card and all I have is gut feeling and no facts at all on my side. It was just an opinion and God all of you know I have been wrong before. All I have seen was this 1 post and this 1 card. Yes the Alpha's were brought to the Industry in 1992. D303 Mother's Bread has been around since the beginning of time and what 1912 uncataloged W series Wagner did I miss? Can new stuff be found in today's world? Absolutely! Could these qualify as a new neat discovery of a truly vintage item? Absolutely.



Please post the other cards pictures and the backs and the provenance, I would love to educate myself.



I am just stating that I don't like the looks of the card pictured here. I also didn't like the looks of the paper thin Ruth strip card numbered #1 and I was quickly corrected by my good friend Lew Lipset that it was good and has been around forever.



I know this may hurt my fan club but I really don't know everything and am constantly learning as I go. Again, no harm meant to the Wentz brothers who are friends of mine.



Sincerely,



Dan Mckee

edited to remove that damn signature I have for some reason.

I wasn't questioning the cards, just the date attributed to them, based on Vance's name being used. It is most unlikely a guy who was out with a bad arm for a couple of years would have had his name in a set like that. As far as tne northwest/PCL connection, nice idea but doesn't fit the facts. Vance was with Memphis then New Orleans in 1920 when he had an arm injury and an operation. Vance spent 1921 with New Orleans in the Southern Association. Vance went 21-11 in 1921 and was bought by the Dodgers.

Gandil wasn't really disgraced until the summer of 1921, when the Black Sox trial took place. Prior to that he was out of the majors because he could not reach a financial accord with the Sox and went home to California.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

Vance was with Sacramento in 1919 after a brief stint with the Yankees in 1918. Not sure when he received his papers from Sacramento, but he was a major cog in their 1919 team and a very popular player.

What type of stock are the cards made out of?

I have two photos of Dazzy Vance when he was with New Orleans in 1920-21











These came from his own family photo album...it is my opinion that the card pictured above is NOT Dazzy.

it sure looks alot more like Grimes than Vance to me. Although I never seem to do real well at these face match games, the pose and face look alot like the image used for Grimes in the 1923 W572 set, a trimmed example of which is currently on ebay: (maybe someone can place the scans side by side--it's not in my skill set)
http://cgi.ebay.com/1923-W572-35-Burleigh-Grimes-W-572_W0QQitemZ350140835360QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_SM_Sports_Cards?hash=item350140835360&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A10%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

If it is Grimes, then it's logical to assume that someone used the wrong Brooklyn pitcher for this card, thinking Grimes was Vance. If so, that would date the card to 1922 or later, as they were not teammates before then.

That was exactly my point about Gandil, and why the date of the issue seems inconsistent. It makes little sense that Vance would be in a set until sometime in 1922 at the earliest, when he started pitching for the Dodgers. At that point it would make little sense for Gandil to be in the set as he was out of baseball and tainted by scandal in 1922. That would make the case for this being a multi year issue as those two being in the same set in the same year is doubtful.

The pinstripes don't really make the case for that photo being Vance either as the Dodgers of that era also had uniforms with pinstripes. IMO Jeff's original post is correct and that is Burleigh Grimes - it definitely isn't Vance.

are the cards stamped peggys popcorn on the back?
where did this set originate from?
why vance with wrong photo on a 1920 issue?
why gandil on an issue after 1920?
why multiple year issue player on such a small set?
are these strip cards?

I have not seen the printed article, but hopefully it has a scan of a card reverse (my scanner just blew up-Merry Christmas!). The issuer is identified as "The Peggy Popcorn and Food Products, Ltd." and a street address in Winnipeg, Manitoba. The street address existed from 1903, when the building was constructed, to 1929, when the building was renumbered. It was a multiple tenant building.



The Peggy Popcorn Company, F.A. Sigesmund, proprietor (or a variation thereof) appears in the Henderson Directory (a Winnepeg business directory at the time) from 1922 to 1927, each year at a different address. Sigesmund is sometimes described as a candy manufacturer. Each year, the company has a different address, always in the same part of town, but nothing definitively ties Peggy Popcorn to the Market Street address. These facts are consistent with the assumption that the company began at that address before 1922.



The Gleason card also implies a 1920 issue date, as he is the manager of the pennant winner the previous year and there would be little reason to include him after 1921. The Vance is the one card that is somewhat inconsistent with a 1920 (or early 1921) issue date. It is a different size than the other cards and could easily have been produced later.



These cards are a fascinating mystery. They may pre-date all the candy issues in Canada (Dominion, Paterson, Maple Crispette, etc.). But until a second cache is found, or some other documentation is located, we may never definitively know the story behind these cards. Mr. Sigesmund passed away in 1975.

Thankfully I got my SGC magazine today since neither Jeff nor BMW were responding to inquires posted. Here is a link to the 3 page article. Hope it is ok to post this.

Greg

Greg,



Thank you for posting the article. There were various versions of it that were written (by myself and others) and I was unsure which one was going to make its way into the SGC Collector Magazine. In any case, I hope it answers some of the recent questions that were posted here. I think it makes more sense for Net54'ers to read the print version rather than rewriting all of it again for the forum and since I have not yet received the magazine, I appreciate your help.

Here are some larger scans of the reverses of #7 Babe Ruth and #16 Dazzy Vance.

As noted in the article, the text is the same on the back of each card with the exception of #3 Gandil, which is missing the word "ball".

My first thought was that it was a multi-year issue, but if it were, one would assume that more would have survived. Multi-year issues tend to be large ongoing productions.
JimB

Greg,
Thanks for posting the article. With the backs undated as far as I can tell, 1920 is a pretty specific date for no more than we seem to know about them.

they all appear to be different...to me. maybe these were a few possible designs for the cards which my or may not have ever been made. super cool...i love them...especially the long,skinny vance.

This is a really strange set. As far as I can tell, no two card fronts have the same design.

Ive seen these before, always thought they looked similar to another Canadian issue, the V117 Maple Crispette cards, especially with some of the photos and the use of just the last names on some. The V117's are from 1923.

greg thanks for posting the article.

The images look like those used for a Spalding or Reach guide.

Thanks for sharing, guys. As a type collector this is especially interesting information. Their "look", although not exactly like any others, has similar characteristics to some other Canadian issues..V117 and Vancouver Peanuts come to mind quickly..regards

Great article! The fronts look like they were created from newspaper images. I wonder if the actual Popcorn company may have created these themselves back then from newspaper images, hence why they are different sizes. Dan.

www.danmckee.com/pictures/types001.jpg>