CHECK OUT THIS AUCTION ON EBAY:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1912-T215-RED-CROSS-TYPE-1-WILDFIRE-SCHULTE-PSA-1-PR_W0QQitemZ320328276852

I can't tell if this card has been rebacked...as there are remnants of some black written back on the card as well. The design doesn't look familiar to me...what do you guys think...t206 made into t215 or some kind of super valuable printing freak that one of y'all will have snapped up by the time I wake up...or better yet...a link between the 2 sets...t215-1 is t206 too!!!


edited link to be smaller...and to add peter's name back to the post

Peter, good catch. This card is interesting in many ways. First - should this have been graded as a T215 with an obviously different back showing through? 2nd - Is the card rebacked? 3rd - If we look beneath the surface of other T215's will we see the black printing from anotherstyle of back? 4th - The blue ink appears to have been applied after the paper loss occurred? 5th - what kind of back does the black ink represent?

Rick

If a fellow bought that, broke it out and soaked it... would he have anxiety that it would end up in 2 pieces?? If so, isn't that based on the belief that it my well be rebacked? Someone will buy that, I'll steer clear.

back on Oct 19th. There were 4 of them for sale as a lot, and I think the suspicions were raised then. I liked the idea of a Coupon back.

The other side of the coin- they all had a lot of back damage and paper on the back, possibly from a notebook- could it be from something on the other side of the notebook page that wasn't removed?

All T215 (Red Cross) cards are printed with BLUE ink captions on the front. This one is
not a legit Red Cross card.

Type 1 T215 Red Crosses have brown printing on the front...regards

I think Tim has it right on - the Dougherty from the same seller has what look like a nice regular set of the blue lines from notebook paper. The black print at the bottom looks like its on a thicker bleb, as if it might be the back of whatever happened to be stuck to the other side of the page.

Dougherty link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1912-T215-RED-CROSS-TYPE-1-PATSY-DOUGHERTY-PSA-1-PR_W0QQitemZ260338851972


Mike



edited link size

Thanks for informing me, as I have never had the T215-type 1 cards. All the T215 cards that I
have are Type 2's.

Therefore, I retract my statement that this Schulte is "not a legit T215 card".

But, now we have a very interesting prospect, as illustrated by this card, and that is....T215-1
cards are originally T206 Piedmont's that were converted to Red Cross cards by "add-backing"
the RED CROSS back on them at American Litho.

Does anyone want to shave the back of their T215 to further confirm this ? ?

TED Z

I can't believe that ad backing was intentionally practiced by American Litho.

It would be a lot of trouble to intentionally add a layer of paper to their printing stock. It would be easier to print from new stock. There was no paper shortage in 1909.

the residual design...in black/blue doesn't look like piedmont to me...if anything coupon...but no other backs look like that...if I'm not mistaken.

Oops...I must've been in Croatia when these cards were originally discussed back in Oct!

OK, since I am not an expert, I can only say/add the following;

1) Captions on T206, T213 Type 1 and T215 Red Cross Type 1 all come with brown/sepia printing on the front.

So, based on that, I can see how somebody could have skinned a/some Red Cross card/s and then added the backs to other cards.

As Ted Z says, the Dougherty card looks like it might have a Piedmont back underneath the Red Cross back.

The problem I am having, however, is with the Schulte card. Underneath the Red Cross back is the brown or black printing of a different company, maybe a Cycle or Coupon back. However, based on the designs at each corner, it can NOT be a Cycle or Coupon Type 1 card.

If it is not a Coupon Type 1 card, then it COULD be a Coupon Type 2 or 3 but THEN the captions on the FRONT of the card would be in blue, as would a Red Cross Type 2 card.

So, the Schulte card, on the front, LOOKS like a T206, T213 Type 1 or a T215 Type 1 but the back looks like a Coupon Type 2 or Type 3 with the Red Cross back over top of that.

David

David...agreed...also...If these were removed from a scrapbook, ledger or whatever...and there were residual paper loss from a card on the other side of the page...it wouldn't be oriented this way...you wouldn't even see it because the back from the opposing card would be facing the opposite way...confusing indeed!



pete

Please edit the URL in your initial post with this abbreviated one......

http://cgi.ebay.com/1912-T215-RED-CROSS-TYPE-1-WILDFIRE-SCHULTE-PSA-1-PR_W0QQitemZ320328276852

this card was in a lot of 7 psa-1 red crosses i bought about 6 months ago.









i bought the lot from london venture, sold 6 of them (all on the bst here to 2 board members) and kept one (latham). i was a bit worried about the backs when i made the buy, but in person, its clear that they used to be glued to some kind of notebook. hope this helps.

It kinda looks like an old mill back with a red cross over it. I am pretty sure a Schulte type 1 Red Cross is worth more than a Schulte Old Mill but not enough to ruin a Red Cross.

The McGraw in B&L was a type 1 and I think the type 1s are just a little tougher than type 2s. Maybe like 60/40 or a tad more.

I agree, Jim. But what about a T215 that had a front with a paint stain, rust stain, or a huge scrape across it so the front is about destroyed, but the back remains in good shape???

Frank-very good point. Probably exact situation.

Schulte

I don't think it is a T206 Old Mill back on Schulte. Old Mill has an unfilled triple-loop corner design.

I agree with David S. The back under Red Cross looks like Coupon Type II or III, whereas the front is T206 or Coupon Type I--which makes little sense.

Maybe the card was double rebacked, or re-re-backed. Strange.

Well what about 4 or 5 of us kicking in, buying it, busting it out for a soaking, then reslabbing and selling whatever's left; splitting up the proceeds??

I'll put in 20% or 25% of the cost; anyone else game?

How it happened, I have NO clue.
However, I think if the card was soaked, both the "black" corners would come off, and you'd be left with a solid Red Cross back.


Frank, put me in for 20-25%

Thank you, Scott!

Now we need 2 or 3 more. Then we'll be on our way to solving this.


FW

I'm in for 25%

pete ullman

I don't think it will soak off to reveal a clean red cross back...for the record...but I hope I'm wrong.

Scott G.,

I think you solved the mystery. Red Cross is the original back and somebody stuck a Coupon Type II or III on top. I was thinking the other way around (i.e. that the original back was Coupon) since it is almost unthinkable from today's perspective that somebody would attempt to rebrand a Red Cross as a Coupon.

Frank,

Best of luck with the soak.

Scot

SCOT R

This comment of yours is may not be so "unthinkable" back in 1910-1913......

"....it is almost unthinkable from today's perspective that somebody would attempt to rebrand a Red Cross as a Coupon."

The RED CROSS tobacco brand dates back to 1870 when the P. Lorillard Co. established a Tobacco manufacturing plant
in New Jersey (Factory #10, 5th Dist.). But, we know that T215 Red Cross premiums were inserted in tobacco products
that were marketed in the Louisiana area. I find this quite strange as it violates the Federal Tobacco laws of that period.

Perhaps, some one (or some entity) re-backed, or re-branded (whatever we want to call it) with COUPON Type 2 (or 3)
backs.....back then.

Or, Red Cross backs were re-backed on top of COUPON's. I, for one, cannot tell if the hint of the Coupon (2 or 3) style
of frame is above or below the Red Cross back from these scans.

I'm tempted to buy this Schulte card....crack it open....and, examine it closely under magnification.


TED Z

alrighty boys...I pulled the trigger and bought it...i'll keep y'all updated.

And I was about one away from having a consortium together...

Thanks for taking it down, good luck with it. Give it a nice soak!!

Frank.

Congrats Peter..

Are you for sure gonna crack open and soak this card??

Marty

I hear Schulte swam like a dolphin...we shall see! I'm skeptical that soaking will reveal a nice clean red cross back...if this appears to be the case when I look at it...it will require some thought. I am a type collector and I "need" a t215 red cross...but why on earth would anyone adhere a coupon type II/III back on it...and if Ted's supposition appears to hold water...it may be better to leave as is. Oh...if George Bush had had such difficult decisions to make...dare to wonder?

If George Bush and his gang of ill repute had any say in the decision making process for whether you (or anyone else) should buy this card, I am sure it would go something like this.

"Buying this card is a no brainer. It is a slam dunk. Our secret intelligence tells us that lurking under the Schulte/Red Cross front back combo is a T206 Honus Wagner with Sweet Caporal back.

So, all you have to do is buy the card and soak off the front and back and voila, mission accomplished, you will be a baseball card millionaire. It will be a short fight with minimal cost and collateral damage but, in the end, it will be worth it because a Honus Wagner card will be liberated. Afterwards, you will be vindicated and many people will thank you."

David

If I soak it...and there is no Wags underneath...Can I get a "do-over?"

IF you soak it??? Don't you mean WHEN you soak it?

Scott Gross and I were definitely in to buy it, and I think Ted Z and Leon were going to join in, that would have been the 4 needed for us to get it, and there be a guaranteed soaking.

I'm more anxious for the mail to get this card to you, Peter, than I am for cards I'm expecting to arrive!!

Please do a soaking photo shoot!!!

But Frank...aren't you curious why anyone would adhere a coupon back over a t215? Could Ted be right...that this was done by the actual factory back in the day. If this is the case...wouldn't it better to keep it in its present state as documentation?

As I told Frank in an email this morning, my guess is that when you get the card in hand it will become more obvious what is going on with that back. I guess it was pasted in a scrapbook, or stacked with other cards and somehow the other card's back got stuck on it...

Having seen this card in person, and still in possession of the Latham with the same scrapbook/notebook paper glued on to the back, I'm pretty certain that this isn't a reback job...

David...you haven't attempted to soak it?

PETER

Gee, you beat us to the Schulte card....and, spared us the hassle of who was going to "operate" on it.

FRANK W was getting together a "consortium" to purchase this card; and, that would have been very interesting.

Before you soak it, can you use an exacto-knife to very delicately scrape the dual backs, and tell us whether the
Red Cross is over (or under) the Coupon Type 2 (or 3) back.

Also, we expect that you will have some one film this operation and the video put on You Tube.....

TED Z

ted...i expect with magnification(if that's even necessary) I should be able to tell which back came 1st. Hopefully I won't have to take a knife to it...but we shall see.

You all can fly in to St Paul, MN...and observe the operation...no junior mints allowed!

pete ullman

ps: I will likely document w/photos.

Thanks for the invite....but, I think us Pennsylvania dudes are not really appreciated in Vikings-land at the moment....

TED Z

I woudn't know how to soak it even if I wanted to soak it. Assuming you go through with your proposed operation and it turns out to be not a Red Cross, what happens to my Latham? Will PSA buy it back from me for a big pile of money? Its currently on the BST. Should I hold off on selling it?

personally...I have no doubts it/they is/are red cross/crosses. IT's more a matter of whether the debris from removal from a scrap book will come off cleanly or whether there is already back damage on the red cross part.

Soaking it shouldn't cause any harm...if done carefully. I may not get the result I'm hoping for...but worst case is that the debris will not soak off...and I'll be left with the same card I purchased.

Peter,
I'll come in from Highland Park...let me know when it arrives; I will bring the beer and distilled water, if you can bring the card and your perfect 10's!

Peter, I'd put him in a glass of water one night, then wake up the next morning and see how he is. Water is slow and safe on T206s, Exacto blades... be careful with 'em.


As for a factory reback, absolutely inconceivable. American Litho did PRINTING. They didn't fool with paper manufacturing. Printers print. No way that is a factory reback.

Ok finaly got a chance to check the T215 Type 1's that i have and sure enough one of them has the same thing. It's in two spots, bottom right and middle top border. I can say that looking at the card it was pasted over the red cross back and not under it on mine. I would bet soaking would remove it as well as the lined paper thats also on back (not something I was confident in trying). Posting scans-

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[IMG][/IMG]

Most curious. Thanks for posting that, Scott.

We look at those lines and think notebook paper. Scott, can you measure the distance between the lines, place a piece of notebook paper next to the card for a scan??

Could a supply of "Red Cross" cards have been rebacked as "Coupons"? Did Coupon cigarettes take over Red Cross??

It looks to me like someone "reused" an old scrapbook and glued down Red Cross cards on top of other cards (maybe non-sport cards?).

Frank...I agree with you...definitely not rebacked...I can't wait to get mine and go swimming...polar bear club here in mn.

pete

Well...I just received my t215/t213 type II/III Schulte card and I picked up some distilled water and came home. Under initial inspection...it's evident that the corners where the residual coupon backs remain attached and an area towards the lower center have paper covering the red cross back that should soak off...but there are major areas of paper loss from the t215 print...so...I'm not going to soak it.

I still find the remnant t213 corners curious as to how they got there...and if I soak it...it'll just be a t215 type I with back damage. Additionally...it's in a PSA holder which brutally enhances it's value.

pete ullman

yep. look at it this way- it's already a psa-1 t215 with back damage. can't get much worse. as it appears that these aren't part of some conspiracy or extremely scarce rebacked subset, i'm going to put my latham from the same lot on ebay. i think. this is not a paid endorsement and i'm not a professional spokesman.

Well the goal was to get one of these soaked... Ratz, Peter. Wish you'd let us buy it, soak it, then sell it to you. I can't see how soaking a back damaged Red Cross will hurt it any. It could only help.

David, please email me when you post yours on eBay, so I can get a bid in. If I win I'll bust and soak. Then post results here.

Frank...damn you! I soaked her last night and the result was as I expected. She's drying peacefully and I will post pics soon.

Ahh... but I now praise you, Peter!!! High praise!!

A beautiful sight!!

Thousands of these cards were flour-pasted into scrapbooks 100 years ago, only to be soaked off 20, 30, 50 or 75 years ago, or so. I'd think that some cards have been soaked once every generation or so.


Save the soaked off bits, so we can see the card and the extras.


Thanks.


Frank.

so then soaking and using an exacto on the back of a card is considered acceptable.....oh good , i thought that was consider a card alteration, thus nullifying a grade .....

Correct, Scott.

The card is altered already, with the crap on the back. I think the knife should stay in its box. But letting foreign debris float away from the surface of a card is fine. The card will still be the card, that crap isn't part of the card. It's a baseball card, it isn't a relic from the Ark of the Covenant.

no knives were used...as Frank has stated. I merely let schulte go for a swim...and upon helping him out of the "pool"...the extra paper remnants merely sloughed right off...pics to come soon...not terribly exciting!

pete in MN

Frank...it looks like just you and me now on this thread...no one else cares!!!

Here's the outcome...as I expected...all the schmutz came off revealing a lovely back damaged T215.
before

after

No, it's not only you and Frank still in this thread. I think a lot of us are interested. It is exactly as I thought it would be....thanks for the update!!

Peter,
With the coupon bits that came off did you see any idea if it was an attempted reback or simply was two cards stuck together?

........... that's exactly what I expected, well done !! !!

Scott (member SIFA, soaking is fun association)

I saved the "bits" which I have at home. I haven't scrutinized them yet...but I will tonight and report back!

peter ullman

Thanks for the update Peter

So, does this mean people are now going to be soaking their T213 Type 1 Coupon cards in hopes of having a Red Cross back under them?

David

David...that's funny...but that'd be crazy...and stupid...and impossible!!! The remnants on my card...and the others are from coupon type II or III...not I.

pete

Peter,

You are correct about the remnants being from Type II and III's. My mistake.

David

Now that is a bit of improvement!! Good job, Peter!! Well done.


My one Red Cross card has a rough back like this one. And I've seen several other Red Cross cards with back damage. This has me thinking that for some reason or other, a disproportionate number of Red Cross T215 cards have back damage. Anyone else have one with a rough back?? Anyone else think that T215s are found more often with back damage than other contemporary issues??


Again, a Big Thank You, Peter.

Frank, my Red Cross type card has a small (about 1/2" diameter) spot of paper loss near the top center of the card from scrapbook removal.