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MISSION 95% ACCOMPLISHED....Sweet Cap 460/42 ovpt subset

February 9 2009 at 8:43 PM
Ted Zanidakis  (Login tedzan)

I have acquired Cobb and White from Net54ers and Bender is pending.

My goal here is to complete the 55-card run from the 350/460 Series with the Sweet Caporal 460
Factory 42 N.C. Overprinted backs. I currently have 51 (or 52) of these cards.

In researching this Overprint back, I've come across some good stuff that you T206 "junkies" might
find interesting."

In early 1911, American Tobacco Co. (ATC) ceased production at their New York plant(Factory 30).
Anticipating their impending break-up.....ATC transferred their NY Sweet Caporal production to the
L&M plant (Factory 42) in Durham, NC.
Approx. the same time, ATC's American Beauty and Piedmont production at the Richmond, Virginia
plant (Factory 25) was also transferred to Factory 42 in NC.

American Litho. selected 55 Subjects from the 270 cards in the "350" series and extended them in
to the 460 series. They printed a lot of these cards with the Sweet Caporal 460 Fac. 30 N.Y. back.
This large stock of these 55 Subjects with the Factory 30 back, however, were never issued, since
this NY plant had been closed.
Instead, American Litho. overprinted the "Factory 30...." line with a scroll and added on the bottom
of the Sweet Cap. backs...."Factory 42 4th Dist. N.C.". Then these overprinted T206's were ship-
ped down to the Durham plant, where they were inserted into the Sweet Cap. packs in early 1911.


[linked image]
[linked image]

The offset scroll on this card's back reveals a glimpse of the original Factory 30 N.Y. printing.



If my Factory 30 research is correct, it also explains why the LENOX and UZIT backs are very rarely
found on these 55 Subjects in the 350/460 Series. They were short-printed due to Fac. 30 closing.

[linked image]



Checklist......350/460 Series......55 cards

Ames (hands above head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)..................pending
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Wash.-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands).............need
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands/knees)
Overall (yellow sky)................need
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (bat)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding).................need
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)


Thanks to Net54er's who have helped me acquire cards for this sub-set

Any help in finding these last 3 remaining cards is greatly appreciated......

Jennings (two hands)
Overall yellow sky)
Sweeney (fielding)


TED Z



    
This message has been edited by tedzan on Feb 14, 2009 4:25 PM


 
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AuthorReply
RayB
(Login RayBShotz)

Re: MISSION 90% ACCOMPLISHED....Sweet Cap 460/42 ovpt subset

February 9 2009, 9:07 PM 

Ted - Wow. That's amazing stuff. Great progress and "Sweet" research.
RayB

 
 

Jason Carota
(Login jay1065)

Re: MISSION 90% ACCOMPLISHED....Sweet Cap 460/42 ovpt subset

February 9 2009, 9:16 PM 

Great post again, Ted. I think I may have an addition (recent pickup) - or I could be completely wrong happy.gif

[linked image]

 
 
Rob G
(Login R.Marley)

Sweet Cap 460's overprints

February 9 2009, 9:38 PM 

Hi Ted,
I can confirm these 3 cards. Needham, Schlei(portrait), & Wiltse( portrait). Keep up the good work.

 
 

Tim
(Login Abravefan11)

Re: MISSION 90% ACCOMPLISHED....Sweet Cap 460/42 ovpt subset

February 9 2009, 10:07 PM 

Ted,

Am I correct in understanding that your subset of Factory 42 OP backs are only the players that appeared in the 350 and 460 runs and does not include the 460 only players with Factory 42 OP backs?

 
 
Bob Manning
(Login Theoldeprofessor)

Re: MISSION 90% ACCOMPLISHED....Sweet Cap 460/42 ovpt subset

February 9 2009, 10:09 PM 

Ted:


Seen these?

[linked image] [linked image]

Hummel, Brooklyn

[linked image] [linked image]

"Happy" Smith, Brooklyn

Despite the lousy scans (sorry) they really are SC Fac 42 overprints, not on your list.

Bob

 
 

Tim
(Login Abravefan11)

Re: MISSION 90% ACCOMPLISHED....Sweet Cap 460/42 ovpt subset

February 9 2009, 10:15 PM 

Every card that has been posted or mentioned not being on Ted's list is a 460 only player if I'm not mistaken. And Ted's list is of players in both the 350 and 460 runs.

 
 

Jason Carota
(Login jay1065)

Re: MISSION 90% ACCOMPLISHED....Sweet Cap 460/42 ovpt subset

February 9 2009, 10:22 PM 

Oops. I think you are right, Tim. I read the post twice, but managed to confuse the title with Ted's actual goal. Sorry Ted!

 
 
barry arnold
(Login ethicsprof)

sweet

February 9 2009, 10:30 PM 

Congratulations, ole friend.
Your research and subset acquisitions continue to be amazing!

all the best,

Barry

 
 
Rob G
(Login R.Marley)

Re: MISSION 90% ACCOMPLISHED....Sweet Cap 460/42 ovpt subset

February 9 2009, 10:31 PM 

I think the cards I posted are all 460's also, sorry Ted. I do have a nice copy of Wiltse(pitching) that I will trade to you to make up for my mistake. happy.gif

 
 
Ted Zanidakis
(Login tedzan)

Hey guys......

February 9 2009, 10:38 PM 

No problem.....I intend to follow up this 350/460 subset by collecting the Factory 42 overprints for the 460-only Series.

Thanks for your inputs of the 460-only cards.

A complete run of Sweet Caporal 460 Fac. 42 overprints should approach 109 cards......

55.....350/460 series

48.....460-only series

..6.....6 super-prints


TED Z


 
 
Bob Manning
(Login Theoldeprofessor)

Re: MISSION 90% ACCOMPLISHED....Sweet Cap 460/42 ovpt subset

February 9 2009, 11:12 PM 

Tim, and others,

It's hard to read "My goal here is to complete the 55-card run from the 350/460 Series with the Sweet Caporal 460 Factory 42 N.C. Overprinted backs" in any way other than a few others (and I) have done. I showed two cards from the 350-460 series with Factory 42 overprints. That they were also not to heve appeared in the 360 run isn't really made clear. They are, after all, Factory 42 overprints of the 360 series. Even "This large stock of the 55 Subjects with the Factory 30 back, however, were never issued since this plant was closed" doesn't quite do it, since there's no casual way of knowing what was and what wasn't released as a Factory 30. Other heading for Scot Reader's exhaustive research, and, of course, that's what I finally did. While Scot's research is truly amazing, it took a bit of looking to find what was included in the 460 series only. And even Homer nods.

Sorry Ted. But hey, the night is young. I'll mess up a few more times before midnight!

Bob

 
 
Ted Zanidakis
(Login tedzan)

BOB M

February 10 2009, 1:29 AM 

You questioned......
""This large stock of the 55 Subjects with the Factory 30 back, however, were never issued since this plant was closed"
doesn't quite do it, since there's no casual way of knowing what was and what wasn't released as a Factory 30."

It is a fact.....we do know that NONE of these 55 cards in 350/460 series have ever been found with a Sweet Cap 460
Factory 30 back.

Therefore, we can safely conclude that Factory 30 in NY stopped its operation (circa 1911) at the time when Sweet Cap
cigarette production was transferred to Factory 42 in Durham, NC.


TED Z


 
 
Bob Manning
(Login Theoldeprofessor)

Re: MISSION 90% ACCOMPLISHED....Sweet Cap 460/42 ovpt subset

February 10 2009, 4:12 AM 

Ted:

"it is a fact." Well, sort of. What really is a fact comes next: "We do know that NONE of the 55 cards in the 350/460 series have never been found with a Sweet Cap 460 Factory 30 back." But the professor in me would like to point out that this is what's called an empirical truth, one drawn from observing one instance many times, and then by generalizing. "All crows are black" is like that. We've seen tens of thousands of crows, and all of them have been black. But the first polka-dotted crow that stumbles past is really gonna mess up that Fact real bad.

Similarly, the first card within the 350/460 series to be found with a Sweet Cap 460 Factory 30 back is gonna mess up that Fact real bad. So do we really know that every card in the 35/460 series will lack a Sweet Cap 460 Factory 30 back? Probably, but not conclusively. There are too many "polka-dotted" T206s out there to ever be sure of it. I was looking for one, and had thought I'd found it. And as I'm sure he'd be the first to tell you, not even Scot Reader has seen all the T206s in the world.

No offense taken, and certainly none intended.

Best,
Bob

 
 
Marty Ogelvie
(Login martyogelvie)

Re: MISSION 90% ACCOMPLISHED....Sweet Cap 460/42 ovpt subset

February 10 2009, 5:30 AM 

I can't be said enough, thanks for sharing all your research Ted!

You are the man, now that is a FACT!



marty


    
This message has been edited by martyogelvie on Feb 10, 2009 10:14 AM


 
 
Craig W
(Login craigw67217)

Re: MISSION 90% ACCOMPLISHED....Sweet Cap 460/42 ovpt subset

February 10 2009, 8:52 AM 

Hi Ted,

Great work! I'm curious though as to why you're not including the six 350/460 Superprints (Chance Yellow, Chase Blue, Chase Dark, Cobb Red, Evers Chicago, Matty Dark)?

Best Regards,
Craig

 
 
Ted Zanidakis
(Login tedzan)

ROB G

February 10 2009, 8:55 AM 

You offered......

" I do have a nice copy of Wiltse(pitching) that I will trade to you to make up for my mistake. "

Thanks, but I did find one.

Regards,

TED Z


 
 
Ted Zanidakis
(Login tedzan)

BOB M

February 10 2009, 10:18 AM 

Well, I'll start by saying I'm not a professor....however, I have taught Radar, Analog & Digital electronic systems
as a 2nd profession for many years. But, the engineer in me appreciates the statistical facts here, and not what-
ever "empirical truth" that you are alluding to.

Before, Scot Reader and I, and any one else currently analyzing the T206 cards, there was Burdick, Carter, Buck
Barker, Frank Nagy, Lew Lipset, Irv Lerner, Larry Fritsch and Bill Heitman ("The Monster") that together have seen
at least a Million T206's.

And, guess what guy, NONE of the regular issue 55 Subjects in the 350/460 Series have ever been reported with
a Sweet Caporal 460 Factory 30 back. But, we know that these cards were printed; and, my point here was to
simply convey to the reader of this thread what did happen to the cards printed with the "30" back.

But, you are skeptical, and you feel that one (or some) Factory 30 card(s) will eventually show up ?

Well, I'll bet you a nice steak dinner that a 350/460 series card that came from a Sweet Cap cigarette pack with
a 460 back will NEVER be found with a Factory 30 back.


TED Z


 
 
Ted Zanidakis
(Login tedzan)

CRAIG W......re..Super-Prints

February 10 2009, 10:21 AM 

That is a great question; and, I will relay to you Scot Reader's brilliant observation on these six super printed cards
that he recently shared with me.

Scot observes that it would be more appropriate to classify these 6 cards as 350-only Series subjects and 460-only
Series subjects. This is evident by the fact that these 6 cards are found with backs associated with these two dis-
tinct series.

The 6 super prints were printed with certain backs not associated with the 350/460 series; therefore, to classify the
6 super-prints as 350/460 series Subjects is not consistent with our knowledge of the T206 back patterns.

In some respects, you can view the 350/460 series' 55 cards as a unique group of T206's.

I could go into more detail if you are so interested; but, I would rather defer to Scot since it is his theory.

Hopefully, Scot will chime in here on this.


TED Z


 
 
Ted Zanidakis
(Login tedzan)

MISSION 90% ACCOMPLISHED....Sweet Cap 460/42 ovpt subset

February 10 2009, 12:49 PM 

I have brought up my 350/460 Series thread in order to provide a better understanding for this thread.

If there are any questions regarding the complexities of the 350/460 Series, please don't be shy in ask-
ing them ?



TED Z



    
This message has been edited by tedzan on Feb 10, 2009 1:07 PM


 
 
 
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