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T206 EPDG Back Question
February 16 2009 at 2:33 PM RayB
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In reviewing Scot Readers fine text "Inside T-206" he charts (under Series Discussion Page 23) all the possible Back designations for the different Series of T206 cards.
Following the logic established in this chart it would follow that there could be theoretically 477 different cards with a T206 Back.
If you exclude the "Rule Breakers" (7 cards) completely then the final tally would be 470 theoretical possibilities.
In previous discussions on this topic about the EPDG Back there was an argument offered for a lesser number but in rereading the entire Reader text again twice I couldn't follow how that could or would be the case.
I can say for sure, with the help of previous work done by our own Ted Z., that I have substantiated the existance of only 276 different examples to date.
Can anyone add to substantiate or refute the theoretical total of EPDG's and bring this discussion back to date?
Insight from our resident T206 guru's is, of course, appreciated.
RayB
This message has been edited by RayBShotz on Feb 16, 2009 2:39 PM This message has been edited by RayBShotz on Feb 16, 2009 2:38 PM This message has been edited by RayBShotz on Feb 16, 2009 2:35 PM
You can remove the 12 150-only subjects from the ranks of the theoretically possible with EPDG, if you haven't already.
I'm referring to:
Ames (Hands at Chest)
G. Brown (Chicago)
M. Brown (Cubs on Shirt)
Burch (Batting)
Donlin (Fielding)
Doyle (Throwing)
Evers (Blue Sky)
Pattee
Pelty (Horizontal)
Powers
Reulbach (Glove Shows)
Schulte (Front View)
I am now convinced that those don't exist, my 2006 checklist notwithstanding.
Ted's EPDG survey will give you a good idea about which subjects are actually possible with EPDG, although all subjects from the 150/350, 350-only, 350/460 SP, 350/460 RP and 460-only subject groups are theoretically possible with that back.
Can't say I've ever seen a green portrait Cobb EPDG, a no print as well.
are you debating whether you 'should' see all 470 or so on EPDG based on
the small sample size from the previous surveys on the board? or do feel
you're close at to the EPDG 'set' at 270-something?
but isn't that dependent on how you 'see' the timeline of issue?
I see it as a fall 1910 350 series issue, but feel the Piedmont set
is more complete (possibly because Piedmont issued a short run 150/350
series prior to EPDG) ....would be interesting to see if Ritchey
dove and no-dove both appear in EPDG or not.....
Dan - Yes. The 276 count is an ongoing effort to continue to update the oroginal List that Ted Z compiled partly as a result of input here on the Boards.
I continue to watch for additional examples.
RayB
Edited to say in cross checking my list against yours we are actually now up to 282 as my list confirms Mordecai Brown Throwing and Overall Blue Sky Pitching.
Thanks for filling me in on your additions.
282 Now.
RayB
RayB
This message has been edited by RayBShotz on Feb 17, 2009 6:42 PM
Approx. 4 years after our EPDG survey we now have 282 confirmed EPDG cards.
The remaining 174 unseen Subjects may just never been printed. There is a high probability, that after 4 years
of sampling, we may have accounted for 95 to 99% of the printed EPDG cards.
TED Z
This message has been edited by tedzan on Feb 18, 2009 10:04 AM
I'll take a stab at this. My survey data show the following:
150/350 group: 42 EPDG seen / 141 subjects in group = .30 per subject
350-only group: 51 EPDG seen / 207 subjects in group = .25 per subject
350/460 SP group: 5 EPDG seen / 6 subjects in group = .83 per subject
350/460 RP group: 20 EPDG seen / 55 subjects in group = .36 per subject
460-only group: 7 EPDG seen / 48 subjects in group = .15 per subject
So, EPDG difficulty is probably about the same across the various subject groups except that subjects in the 350/460 SP group are probably somewhat easier and subjects in the 460-only group are probably somewhat tougher.
Of course, this analysis assumes that all subjects in these groups are possible with EPDG. I didn't account for the no-prints.
Scot
This message has been edited by sreader3 on Feb 18, 2009 7:45 PM
I would say the most scarcest EPDG backs are on these 8 cards in the 150/350 Series that I've (in a prior thread)
referred to them as the "Elite Eight"......
1st and foremost..Carl Lundgren (Cubs)....I acquired mine in 1984 and have seen only one other EPDG since then.
2nd......Mullin (throwing)
3rd......Dahlen (Boston)
4th......Ganley
5th......Ewing
6th......Tom Jones (St Louis)
7th......Karger
8th......Lindaman
I have listed these in order of my experience in finding them with EPDG backs.
I'm open to any of your questions ?
TED Z
This message has been edited by tedzan on Feb 19, 2009 9:51 AM
I was thinking in terms of subject groups rather than individual subjects.
I agree with Ted about the "elite eight" 150/350 subjects. As they are very difficult with 350 backs (and in fact nonexistent with Sweet Caporal 350 and Sovereign 350 backs) it stands to reason that they would be extraordinarily difficult with EPDG.
All of the super prints have been confirmed with EPDG. My analysis was based only on my ebay survey data and did not include other data sources like Bill Brown's superset spreadsheet. The reason is that those other data sources don't tell you anything about quantity.
I have all the 8 cards of the "elite eight" with EPDG backs and their very rare Piedmont 350 backs.
To acquire these two backs on these eight T206's is a task that took me over 4 years. As I noted
in my above post, Lundgren and Mullin are unbelievably tough with EPDG....finding these are a real
challenge.
I have posted previous threads on these 8 cards; but, searching for them is not always easy. However, I
don't want to start another thread. Therefore,, here is a summary of my findings on these 8 cards.
So, here is what I've found about these 8 cards in the 150/350 series. Compared to the other 133 cards
in the 150/350 series, these 8 cards are very seldom found with a "350" back.
These 8 cards are found with the usual "150" backs (HINDU, PIEDMONT 150, SOVEREIGN 150, and SWEET
CAPORAL 150). But, are rarely found with a 350 back....and then, it is only a PIEDMONT 350 back.
Furthermore, the only other "350" back is the EPDG (and this is very rare).
The following is a survey we ran on these 8 cards a few years ago that provides you a relative perspect-
ive on what I am saying here.
Subject................Piedmont 350......HINDU........EPDG....Sweet Cap 350....150/350 inputs (total)
With the exception of Mullin....the other 7 Subject's careers were in a state of transition in 1909 and this,
perhaps, caused American Litho. (ALCo) not to extend their printing of these particular Subjects with the
usual "350" type of T-brands. When a new series was introduced, ALCo printed the Piedmont brand first;
therefore, a limited number of Piedmont 350 backs were issued of these 8 cards. Furthermore, I would say
it is evident from these 8 cards that the EPDG back shortly followed in the print run.
This information may offer some insight regarding these Subjects......
1..Dahlen played in only 69 games with the Boston Doves in 1909, and then was traded to Brooklyn.
2..Ewing was traded from Cinci to the Phillies at the end of 1909.
3..Ganley was traded from Washington to the A's in May 1909.
4..Tom Jones was traded from St Louis (AL) to Detroit in Aug 1909.
5..Karger was traded from Cinci to Boston (AL) in Jun 1909.
6..Lindaman was sent down to Indy (Amer. Assoc.) in July 1909, after a 1-6 record with Boston (NL).
7..Lundgren's Maj. Lge. career ended Apr 23rd 1909, after having pitched in only 2 games for the Cubs.
8..Mullin had a AL leading 29-8 pitching record in 1909...can't figure why this card is in this group ? ?
POST SCRIPT......
After several years of searching for the Piedmont 350 versions of these 8 cards, I was able to acquire 7 of
them from one original collection from Georgia. This T206 collection consisted of all Piedmont 350 cards.....
including the very rare Joe Doyle error card.....what does this fact tell us ?
Ted if you are adding to the list I own a Ewing EPDG, I believe I let you know initially but since I have seen one for sale on Ebay, so that would make at least 2.
Thanks for your EPDG inputs. But, I'm not running this survey anow. I posted the above data for illustrative
purposes, only. That data is over a year old. The intervening gap between then and now makes it unrealistic
to continue this survey at this point.
FRANK
Your Lundgren with an EPDG back is only the 3rd one I know of in 25 years of searching for another one.
It appears like you acquired yours about the same time I acquired mine back in the 1980's.
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