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Matt
(Login MSW1)

Re: Have you ever bid to protect your cards?

April 30 2009, 9:20 AM 

I think it's a worthwhile discussion. If I recall correctly Lew Lipsett had a sizable article discussing it in a mid 1970's issues of TTS. I think he called it Market Price Manipulation or something like that. Regards.




My Trade/Sale Page



    
This message has been edited by MSW1 on Apr 30, 2009 9:21 AM


 
 

Joann
(Login jmk59)

Re: Have you ever bid to protect your cards?

April 30 2009, 11:54 AM 

I think Barry summed it up perfectly. I've been trying to decide how bidding on a card you don't own is unethical in any case and have come up empty.

The difference between this and shilling is in how it relates to another bidder. If you bid on your own card or on behalf of the owner, you drive up the price to a single (hypothetically) independent bidder. If you bid on a card that you don't own and aren't bidding on behalf of the owner, then you are legitimate competition and the subsequent rise in price to another bidder is part and parcel of auction basics - bids raise prices.

So as long as you don't own the card or are bidding for the owner and will buy it if you do happen to win it (even if you did not bid with the intention of winning it), then your intent for bidding is 100% irrelevant. You are a legitimate bidder making a legitimate bid.

It doesn't matter if you bid to raise the price, to stay on the active catalog mailing list, to place a bookmark, give the card to your Aunt Fanny, collect a duplicate or decopage it onto the side of a coffee mug.

J



    
This message has been edited by jmk59 on Apr 30, 2009 11:58 AM


 
 

leon
(Premier Login leonl)
Network 54 Moderator

Joann

April 30 2009, 12:18 PM 

Nice summation.

I want to pose a devil's advocate question though. You mentionend that as long as you aren't bidding on a consignors card with them knowing it, then it is ok. Let me first say I have NEVER bid on a friends card in auction for them....(had to get that out of the way, as at least someone in this thread probably can't even say that currently).

Lets say my friend "Bob" has a card and wants me to bid on it for him as he doesn't want to sell it so low. Lets say I bid and I win...I then send the money to the auction house and get the card. Is that wrong? I dunno...but it's an interesting thought....

 
 

Joann
(Login jmk59)

Re: Have you ever bid to protect your cards?

April 30 2009, 12:33 PM 

Actually, I wouldn't have that much of a problem if the owner of a card wins back his own card in an auction. Changed mind, protecting investment, whatever - he bids he wins.

Where it goes south quickly for me is when an owner bids on his own card and doesn't win it. In the case where there was only one other bidder that topped the owner, the price has been artificially and deceptively driven up.

The key issue with me is that deceptive part. The single bidder thinks he was in legitimate auction competition with another independent bidder and that that's why he ended up at the price he did. If he could have ended up at a lower price but for the owner's bids, then he has been decieved and that crosses the line.

The problem is that if an owner bids and does not win, you never know if he legitimately was trying to win his card back or if he was just trying to goose a few more dollars out of the system. For this reason, my line is no owner bidding at all b/c you can't separate the two circumstances even though I think the owner-buy-back would be okay in its own right.

As to the friend Bob, that's just as bad as the owner bidding since it is pretty much done as an attempt to avoid the rules about sellers/consignors bidding deceptively.

J



 
 

Rob D.
(Login wolfie51sb)

Re: Have you ever bid to protect your cards?

April 30 2009, 12:36 PM 

Joann,

Please remember to e-mail your thoughts to Barry.

 
 

Jim VB
(Login jvb6034)

Re: Have you ever bid to protect your cards?

April 30 2009, 12:38 PM 

Shouldn't she check with Bruce first?

 
 

Rob D.
(Login wolfie51sb)

Re: Have you ever bid to protect your cards?

April 30 2009, 12:41 PM 

You mean to get advise (sic)?

Yes. Good point.

 
 
Matt
(Login MSW1)

Re: Have you ever bid to protect your cards?

April 30 2009, 12:46 PM 

I'm sure she checked with Bruce 3 times already - she just doesn't know it.



    
This message has been edited by MSW1 on Apr 30, 2009 12:46 PM


 
 

Bob
(Login tbob)
Registered Users

Re: Have you ever bid to protect your cards?

April 30 2009, 1:31 PM 

"Bob" seems to be getting a bad name lately sad.gif
I went to a seminar in New Orleans last weekend and one of the speakers was discussing online solicitation and he said, "Suppose 'Bob' was actually a sexual predator..." Yikes. Everyone at the table glanced at my nametag and laughed. Bob (or Robert) used to be a very common and popular name for boys in the 50's-80's but now with all the newborns getting Biblical names or Deons or Treys or Skylers etc., the Bobs, Pauls, Johns, Dicks, Toms and Bills of the world are fewer and fewer.
Just for the record I have never bid on my own card or asked anyone to bid on one of my cards, but I agree with Pete U and Barry 100%.

"My name is Bob and I am a card collector."
"Hi Bob..."


    
This message has been edited by tbob on Apr 30, 2009 1:32 PM


 
 

boxingcardman
(Login boxingcardman)

Of course I bid on stuff I already have

April 30 2009, 1:37 PM 

If I can get a double of a card on the cheap of course I will bid on it. It is smart investing, not shilling. Shilling is driving up the price of your own card in an auction. In other contexts, buying a second item as the price drops is called "dollar cost averaging."

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

 
 
Bill Stone
(Login ston4100)

Hi Bob!

April 30 2009, 1:39 PM 

I suddenly wanted a beer---Hi Bob reminded me of the college drinking game when everyone watching the Bob Newhart show had to take a drink anytime someone said 'Hi Bob" which was frequently---off to get a beer ---"Hi Bob"

 
 

Tom Boblitt
(Premier Login autograf)

Matt.........

April 30 2009, 4:04 PM 

Did Joann check with Bruce 3 times or three different Bruces only once? I'm confused.

I've bid on cards like cards I have before in major auctions but generally placeholder bids in the event that they go on the really cheap. It obviously depends but it becomes increasingly more difficult to 'protect' your card's value the closer you get to it and the more risker for having a second card at a value potentially higher than the market. I've won a couple before and just held on to them till another more advantageous time to resell them.


 
 

davidcycleback
(Login dereb12)

Re: Have you ever bid to protect your cards?

April 30 2009, 4:13 PM 

Shillers don't want or intend to win. Their bids are fake bids. If someone bids with the intention of winning (of course he may lose as he's outbid by others) and pays the $$ if he wins, there's no issue.

If a collector thinks a card should be worth $100, and is willing to buy the card any time if falls below $75, there is nothing errant or wrong. He may overestimate the value and end up as the proud owner of many copies of that card purchased for $75 each. Ten years from now, the card may turn out to be the next Pinkerton Cabinet or Dog's Head variation and collectors will marvel how he picked them up for dirt cheap.


    
This message has been edited by dereb12 on Apr 30, 2009 4:25 PM


 
 

Joann
(Login jmk59)

Re: Have you ever bid to protect your cards?

April 30 2009, 5:19 PM 

Duh. Wrong thread. Sorry.


    
This message has been edited by jmk59 on Apr 30, 2009 5:20 PM


 
 

Greg Ecklund
(Login Gecklund311)

Re: Have you ever bid to protect your cards?

April 30 2009, 5:45 PM 

But in this case the primary intention seems to be propping the price in order to justify an earlier price paid for a card. Winning the card seems to be the secondary motive in which somebody "sort of" wants a card, but protecting an "investment" seems to be the primary motive.

I look at that scenario as my possibly preventing a fellow collector from getting a card that they may want, and unless I'm buying something expressly to trade why on earth would I need more than one of a card? That is especially true since in a case where you're trying to protect an "investment" that means the card is likely quite scarce and would be kept out of the hands of fellow collectors for some time if I were to hoard it.

That is simply my personal philosophy, and obviously everyone is free to apply whatever principles they may want to that situation. As long as whoever is buying the card pays the bill what they do is up to them.

I do believe though that just because you CAN do something doesn't mean that you should.

 
 

boxingcardman
(Login boxingcardman)

Let's pose the question another way

May 1 2009, 8:42 AM 

If you saw a very valuable card you already have being auctioned at $20 and it was unquestionably legit, would you bid on it? I don't think anyone here could honestly say "no"; the deal is too good to pass up. Unless you can honestly say that no matter how good the deal you would never acquire a duplicate card, the sanctimony on displaye in regard to this issue is hypocritical.

Bottom line, if you bid on an item that isn't yours and if you have the risk of winning, your reasons for bidding are irrelevant. You're either going to win the item or get topped. If someone else doesn't want to top your bid, that is not an ethical problem: it is one of market interpretation. One or the other of you is misjudging the card's value.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

 
 

Mark L
(Login Mark_VL)

Re: Have you ever bid to protect your cards?

May 1 2009, 12:03 PM 

As others have already said, there is no ethical problem with bidding on a duplicate card that seems to be going for an unusually low price. True, the intention is to sell it, along with the card that you already own, for a substantially higher price. But that is not immoral in a market economy.

 
 

Greg Ecklund
(Login Gecklund311)

Re: Have you ever bid to protect your cards?

May 1 2009, 2:01 PM 

So there is no difference in picking up a legitimate deal and propping up the price of a card? That is like saying there is no difference between a pineapple and an orange - both may be fruits, but place them next to each other on a table and the difference is obvious.

Obviously results of auctions do not list the intent of the bidder, nor should they, and it has pretty much been established that people can do what they want with their own money.

There is no sanctimony on display in this thread whatsoever...just people stating what they think is right. Others will justify actions in any way they please.

 
 

boxingcardman
(Login boxingcardman)

That dichotomy doesn't make any sense.

May 1 2009, 3:41 PM 

Unless the card being auctioned is yours (in which case you are shill bidding), the idea of propping up the price of a card at auction simply doesn't hold water. The price on the card at auction is dictated by the interaction of two or more bidders, not by one bidder. You will either win it at your bid, in which case the "market" is your bid price that you were willing to pay, or you will be topped, in which case the "market" is wherever the card closes. Either way, the card reaches an actual sales price.

The only time it makes sense to accuse someone of propping up a card price in a bad sense is if he is shilling his own auction, which is already unlawful, against every auction rule, and universally decried.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

 
 
 
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