I just received word from Tom Austin that my taildragger fuel cell for my Wing setup won't pass the IBR Tech inspection. He has suggested an aluminum cell that will attach directly to the trailer hitch, without the exposed fuel lines. I can't afford to get such a tank welded up right now, and can't work on the bike side of the equation until it is repaired.

I can't use a pillion mount because my arthritis means I need the back seat clear to get a leg over. Anyone have any ideas for me?

I say this with the utmost ignorance: Is it now impossible to be an IBR finisher without auxiliary fuel while piloting a GL1800? Perhaps proving you don't need no stinkin' fuel cell to be a finisher might be motivation enough...I have no idea.

Take what you have and manage it wisely. And ignore what I say.

Chris Cimino finished the 2007 IBR on a stock Concours14, which I believe did not have aux fuel. Those bikes have comparatively awful fuel range (around 140 miles at freeway speeds). The Wing, if I remember from riding behind Ron for all those years, will go around 200 miles. It can certainly be done.

Dave, I sent you an email. Let me know when you get your bike back. Maybe we can figure out a way to make your current setup work.

Phil

..what exactly is the IBR's issue with your setup, Dave?

Greg, the main complaint is about the mounting. Rules call for not more than 1/2 in. play, and that is supposed to compensate for cushioning for a pillion mount. Basically when they shake the tank, the whole bike should move. The feeling is that a single point of mount, like a trailer hitch, does not have the stability they want. It is almost like it has to be directly mounted to the frame.
Since mine is mounted on a platform on the trailer hitch, the claim is that it does not meet the standards. On top of that is the subjective element which makes the IBA the final approval. I would almost have to get a custom tank built that would mount in place of the rear panel. So what I am going to do is up in the air.

if it is a receiver type hitch it would be easy to make a lock down clamp nut that would tighten against the receiver, otherwise making a angle iron bracket to triangulate the fuel cell mount to eliminate any play would be a fairly simple thing to do, don't scrap the whole thing, it should be able to be modified to work...

"you don't quit riding because you get old,"
"you get old because you quit riding"
Brett-IBA#326/TS#515

In your MN1K ride report last year you said that the set-up wasn't strong enough. Anyone who looked at it could tell it was not a good idea. If you're in the Ironbuttrally why did you wait until a month before the event to find out if they'd allow it--especially when the answer was already obvious? I'd say take off that tank setup you have and run without it.

Dave,

There are a lot of people here rooting for you, good luck, with or without a fuel cell. I know you can do it!!

I'm hoping to be at the finish line, or at least one of the checkpoints, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand I promise not to pull a "SENTY" on you!!

BEST WISHES,

Donna
A successful person is one who can lay a firm foundation with the bricks that others throw at him or her. - David Brinkely

First, I don't have much respect for anyone who will not identify themselves.

Second, last year, unbeknownst to me, the struts holding the reciever had rusted and broken, allowing the cell to droop. I did not realize there was any problem until I had left on the Rally. The Hitch company replaced the struts for free, because it was apparent to them that the pieces were defective. The weight of the full fuel cell was less than the rated strength of the hitch, as it was supposed to be able to carry more than 40 lbs. tongue weight.

It was only until the subject of getting cells approved in advance came up in May that I submitted my information. Unfortunately it took the Powers That Be more than a month to pass judgement. I ran this setup on the BL4 with no problems, therefore had no fear of running it on the IBR. I had showed it to Warchild at the IBA Gathering in Denver just after BL4, and he did not express anything negative at that time. As soon as I was told it would not fly by their new stringent rules, I started looking for alternatives.

Since my bike is being repaired from Bambi's Revenge on June 4th, I have lost over a month of having the bike availble to explore alternatives. So this was not a case of me sitting on my ass, as you imply, rather circumstances over which I had no control. That is the reason I started asking for fuel cell help as I hoped the type cell I needed might be available through other LD Riders.

I should have my bike back by early next week, and will work on designing the fuel cell for my bike.

Allow the following clarifications.

First of all, Tom Austin did not fail your setup; I did. I routinely tell IBR entrants that I can NOT approve of a cell setup via pictures alone; it has to be inspected first hand. However, I can absolutely fail a setup just by viewing photos of it that show obvious violations of the rules.

Let me be absolutely clear here: there is ZERO CHANCE of this setup passing IBR Tech Inspection in this form:





The moment arm produced with this much weight this far aft will never pass the rule of no excessive movement. The overall design and layout of this system is, quite frankly, abysmal. I can see this platform easily striking the ground when you pull into a steep driveway or parking lot.

Here's another view of this setup that is troublesome:




Recall the rule that says no aux fuel components in and around the hot exhaust exits? You have the entire platform surrounded by exhaust exits. Fail.

Let's take a closer look at the electrical engineering practices..... in this view here, how many items of concern do we see? At the very least, I need to introduce you to my 3 friends: shrink-wrap, wire loom, and zip-ties!





Okay, by now you should be fully aware of why this setup won't make the grade. You have had a ton of offers from many folks on many different forums to help you out with another arrangement...including one offer here. You need to start taking advantage of them, and/or otherwise begin to adapt, improvise, and overcome. I know Lisa Landry has provided you with several alternatives, including methods to mount the bike with with a pillion cell mounted, yet still get around the arthritic limitations.

As mentioned above and on many other forums, there are a lot of people pulling for you, lot's of people offering help, so there is really no reason or excuse to not take advantage of their kind offers.

IMO, your best bet, the one that is fastest and least expensive, is a pillion-mounted arrangement. If you insist on keeping the pillion area free, then put a cell in your top box, and re-arrange your packing needs accordingly, and be done with it. The is a Way, if there is the Will. Adapt, improvise, and overcome.

If you just raised the cell a foot or so on the same mounting perhaps it would work. And clean up the wiring as Mr. Child not-so-elegantly suggested.

Sadly, again this proves that the Ironbutt has become a realm of the over financed.

Did I say how much I appreciate the approach of the Buttlite (excepting their obvious affection for vegetables)?

Mea culpa after the fact is rather pointless, but since I was (allegedly) the RM of the '08 MN1K and was - until this moment - unaware of the Rube Goldberg-style set up in the photos above, let me state for the record my strong disapproval of it.

FWIW, I do not believe Mr. Warchild's comments were excessively snarky or inappropriate, nor do I support self-serving derogatory remarks against the IBR.

Actually, I don't have any personal knowledge to have made the statement above "Sadly, again this proves that the Ironbutt has become a realm of the over financed." So perhaps I should leave those types of comments to the folks I have been hearing them from in parking lots at events. They have far more intimate knowledge of the situation than I.

And perhaps you are right Bart, and they weren't "excessivly" snarky. Shades in the eye of the beholder, eh? I think reading the anonymous rips on Dave before that post may have heightened my sensitivity in that area.

I feel for Dave. He's been riding this setup in lots of events thinking he was fine and now just before the The Big One, he's denied. Add to that the other animal inflicted problems, and I'm sure it's overwhelming. But it's to be expected from Dave isn't it? I mean, anyone remember Deerslayer 1? I personally have towed him into a gas station on an event. Having Dave try year after year on that old bike to at least finish, was kind of building us up to this too, wasn't it? We encouraged him, reveled in the rat-bike fixes, and had good laughs WITH Dave about that old bike. Now it seems nobody is laughing with him about the same level of "fixes". Regardless, he's got to play by the IB rules, and this problem seems fixable, unless they are denying a hitch mount setup all together.

While I would LOVE to apply to be in the "lottery" for the IB, it isn't in the cards for me, and won't be for another 7 or 8 years when I retire. New rules and ways of running the event keep getting added that make it more and more expensive. I'm still paying off my credit card debt from the last BL. And I'm afraid this sport will be near dead by the time I can do it, for reasons completely unrelated to how any LD event it run currently.

I have nothing but awe and inspiration from my freinds who have ridden in and won IBs. I am quite sure our new round of Minnesota riders will dominate once again. I've offered to help them in any way I can. But of course they have refused any whiff of outside help.

John,

I felt the same way too, and my hairs also raised at the unnecessary attack. As far as Mr Child's comments go ( Waving - Hi Dale ;-P ) while they were very stern, candid and straightforward, I did not get the sense they were meant to be cruel, and he signed his name, big difference. Here is the bottom line, if Dave or any one of us continues to look back at the past, failures as well as successes, we are in danger of losing the future. That does not mean we don't learn from our mistakes, or enjoy the successes, it means we should move ahead without dwelling on them.

Dave would also help anyone on this list who asked him for help, he stepped up and helped my friend Chris during the 08 MN1K when he crashed at the start. Being from Vancouver Island and not having transportation really put him at a disadvantage, Dave did not even blink when he offered to help. All I am trying to say is, Dave has a huge mountain to climb. He has been part of the LD and Team Strange community for a long time, he has an opportunity to do something many of us only get to watch from the outside, and dream about. If there are those who can't, or are unwilling to help him be successful and safe, then politely get out of his way and let him get on with what he needs to do without kicking sand.

Once again, I am going to wish you good luck Dave, as well as my best wishes to all those in the rally.

Donna
oh, and being "snarky" is not necessarily a bad thing, as Lewis Carroll's nonsense poem "The Hunting of the Snark" shows, being snarky has more to do with "the infinite humor of the impossible voyage of an improbable crew to find an inconceivable creature"

If Dave's fuel cell set-up passed BLIV tech looking like the photos show now, we really erred. As RM, I guess ultimately the blame there is mine.

I first became aware of Dave's system with the problems at the '08MN1K.
I was there when rider after rider were coming up to Dave at the Liar's Banquet telling him it was leaking fuel.

After seeing the set-up and hearing Dave say he wasn't going to run fuel in it for the rally on Saturday morning, I felt it shouldn't be an issue.
After seeing the broken pieces Sunday morning, it was apparent that this was a set-up that shouldn't be allowed in the future.

Dave's crash earlier this year made it a non-issue for the '09 MN1K,
but just to clarify--now that the set-up had been drawn to my attention,
it wouldn't have been allowed in another TS event.

I'm not taking sides with anyone. Just saying that this set-up is not adequate.


Eddie

Man...keep firing those thinly veiled shots at 'em...and I wouldn't be surprised if you got extra "special" attention at tech inspection.

May 2009?

You were notified well over a year ago you were drawn for the IBR.....why did you wait so long to ask to begin with? The supposed month delay in a response seems pretty pale compared to the year+ you've had to get things ready. Asking in May was WAY too late if you ask me for an item as important as a fuel cell.

That is a scary looking piece of abstract art you've got there.....with all the wires hanging out.

And let me get this straight....you had a trailer hitch rust out and drag BEFORE you caught it?

If so, I'd seriously reconsider your basic preventative maintenance approach. What else do you have that's sketchy on the bike?

Yikes!

Do you have a picture of it posted somewhere?
I agree with Brett. It doesnt sound like an impossible fix

I think the important thing here, is that nobody wants to see Dave go up in a ball of flames if something should happen with that tank setup.

As we've all signed off on many a rally form, "motorcycling is an inherently dangerous activity." It seems to me that a cell like that, with the dual risks of a rubber fuel line right by the exhaust, and the metal plate just inches from the ground (if it droops or breaks, think of the sparks flying, resulting in a moving molotov cocktail) would increase that danger greatly, regardless of how well it may or may not have worked in the past.

MYTH:
If the trail of gas from the leaking gas tank of a moving vehicle is lit, the fire can catch up to the tank and blow up the car.

RESULT: Busted

Through small scale tests, the MythBusters discovered that gas burns at just over 3 miles per hour, which is as fast as a brisk walk. Next, they lit leaking gas trails from both a remote control car and a regular pickup, and the flame did not catch up to either. A car going at the low speed of 20 miles per hour could easily outrun the stream of fire. Finally, they let the gas catch up to the tank, and it did not explode. In order to create an explosion, the Mythbusters filled the tank with enough gasoline to get an ideal fuel/air mixture for combustion. Even so, they could not make the gas tank explode so this myth was completely busted.

Not disagreeing, but I would add: When I got hit head on, the gas tank came off of my GS and within moments exploded in an extremely impressive manner - trust me, I was there to witness it. And I was told there remained a long burn mark down MN 60 for some time to come. Point being that when a container of gas explodes, it actually makes a really big boom-boom.

Better safe than sorry.

What bart said.

I wasn't implying something like Wile E. Coyote running a gunpowder trail.

I was thinking more that the tank could somehow catch fire while still attached to the bike, and that would be a particularly bad mess. An even worse issue, is that if either of the scenarios I mentioned (melted fuel line, or spark shower from a dragging platform) happened, the rider would not likely know about it immediately because of the location of the tank.

Jeez Jake, give the IB more credit than that. I would hope they wouldn't be more or less lenient to somebody for expressing a differing opinion, whether well informed or not.

And lets all agree, the IB said this tank ain't gonna work. So Dave's got to fix it either way. My snarky comments were directed at other (percieved) snarky comments at poor ol'dave. Hey, we had a hand in creating this monster is all I'm saying.

I think that Warchild pegged it, pulling into a steep lot or driveway...which would likely involve a stop, perhaps even a gas station. Scrape, ignite, burn, trouble...

I remember as a yoot placing 1/2 full cans of Coleman white gas (cap firmly on) on a fence post with 3 lit votive candles on top...then shooting it from a safe(?) distance with a deer rifle. There's nothing like a good closed container explosion.

Now that I have been thoroughly raked over the coals, a few more comments.

I originally submitted pics of my setup on May 25th. I did not get a reply until June 30th, at which time my bike was already in the shop from Bambi. The IBR was quite clear that it would not pass inspection. However, without my bike on hand with which to work, I have not been able to really work on other solutions.

I've been beat up repeatedly for not wanting a pillion mount, and I am starting to really resent that.. I've tried repeatedly to make it clear that with my various physical problems, such as arthritis, back injuries, and a hip that will be replaced in Oct., I have not been able to get a leg over if there is something on the pillion. However I have had suggestions that I might be able to try. Once again, I can't do anything until I get my bike out of the shop.

I have talked to my welder about making a tank that will bolt to the back of the bike in place of the rear center panel. I have seen similar setups. I am reluctant to try putting a cell inside my trunk, with all the drilling that would entail. Once again I have to have my bike in order to try anything.

I have not critized the IBR or Warchild for the decision to reject my setup. There are rules, and if my setup does not meet the rules then I have to do something different.

I asked for help because I have seen fuel cells on the back of Wings, and thought that if someone had a good setup they might be willing to share the information with me. So far, that has not happened. I have to do it on my own.

Unless someone has plans for a cell that will mount on the back of the bike, can we please just let this drop?

I seem to remember drilling or welding on the back of someones rear mounted cell... wasn't that a Wing?

That was the Lisa and Eddie bike.

On ours, one of the mounting brackets on the fuel cell had only been tack
welded on during construction and the entire bead hadn't been laid down.
This wasn't noticed during the dealer installation and the tack weld finally
broke (on Bart's favorite crappy road) after thousands of miles of use.

This was a manufacturing defect, not a design issue.
It would have broken no matter what bike it was mounted on.

Once repaired correctly (special thanks again to Aaron Petty and
Victor Wanchena for their help there) it has worked flawlessly for 30K+ miles since--
including several thousand miles of sometimes horrid dirt roads in the western US.
(think BLIIIIII....)

I'd wager you could push our Wing down a ravine, throw a hook on the
gas tank only and drag the bike back out--it's that well done.

The new design will be even better--and hold even more fuel.
We're still about a gallon below the 11.5 limit.


Eddie

So, Eddie, how about sharing the design of your cell with me? That is what I have been asking for, a succesful design.

Dave,

It's my understanting that Tom Austin designed a taildragger tank for a GL1800. Someone used his plans to have one fabricated. You might ask him.

Sleddog/Jack

first post said he doesn't want to spend any money to make a tank.

as reading comprehension is key here. He didnt say he didint want to spend any money, he stated he couldnt afford the new tank setup suggested to him.

Also, how about you sign your damned name?

That said, been here done that. The Choppa was on a wing and a prayer when I rolled back into Niobrara and not just because of the broken frame. In retrospect welding the tank frame would have been lots better that riveting it together at the campground.

As always, YMMV.

This discussion could not continue without at least a brief mention of John the Bike Borower's handiwork on The Choppa.

The Bike Borrower beat me to it.

Note to Chief: Whatever The Bike Borrower says, do the opposite.

Jim

If you're looking for a new-set-up, what you need to do is study the IBA
rules for this year's event and build your tank to those specifications.
Make sure it complies with their current requirements regarding capacity,
venting, solid mounting, and/or whatever else is needed.

On fuel tanks, I've not seen the IBA out to suppress creativity in this area.
I dont speak for them, but my impression has always been that they want
to make sure an aux tank is a safely done, well executed, set-up that
meets their basic rules. They're pretty open as to how one gets to that point.

All the input from another party is moot if the cell is not safely installed.
As an example, the fuel cell you already have will likely be used by others in this years IBR event.
The difference is in how youve attached, plumbed, and wired it to your bike.

To be expeditious, I'd simply take the cell you now have and move it to the trunk.
Plumb it and wire it properly and you're good to go.
It might require drilling a few holes for the mounting, but that's a lot
easier than trying to reinvent the wheel 5 weeks before you leave for the event.

Rev.

Dave,

I'd ask my dad if he'd volunteer to help you on this, but he left on the bike for a few weeks. Lucky guy. And for the first time in a LONG time, he left me with two working motorcycles! And no time to ride them.......

Dave,
Not a wing, but here is an idea...



Tom

There was a older couple that had a tail dragger fuel cell mounted to the back of there G wing at the Mn 1k. Unfortunatly I didnt get any photos of it. It looked like a good setup. I took a few photos there but they probly wont help with your setup though.
[IMG][/IMG]

With most of these tanks, mine included, there are no real plans per se for construction.

It's a straightforward concept.
Make or buy a box to hold the fuel in.
Figure out where mounting brackets have to be attached to it to fit the specific application.
Even on a set-up like mine it varies greatly depending on size wanted, where the license plate and
taillight will be mounted, what type of attachment to put it on the bike, how will you get fuel out of it,
how will you vent it, where does the fill cap go, etc., etc., etc.
Traditional wisdom for Wing tanks says mount it to a trailer hitch mainframe (not the hitch insert).
Even then, the set-up varies depending on which trailer hitch one has--and where the cell could be mounted to it, etc.

There's no set plans that I know of, unless one goes with one of the commercial suppliers making one off the shelf.
Could they get one to a rider on a zero-time deadline.
I dunno--but I don't think it would be cheap to do.

It can be a sometimes lengthy process with some trial and error to get it "just right" for a specific application.
Or it might work right out of the box.


Eddie

There was a older couple that had a tail dragger fuel cell mounted to the back of there G wing at the Mn 1k.



Older couple....that would have to be Eddie & Lisa

I think this is what you're thinking of.
I spied this one in Hyder:

Dave, why couldn't you redo the lower mount, to move the tank higher, add some supports into the wheel opening. Three point mounting would help tremendously. Tidy up all hose and electrical, heat shrink and such. Tuck it all into the opening,and move the cell as close into the rear of the bike as possible.

I would not be comfortable with it hanging that low.If it was me, the basics are there, but certainly many components are in harms way.


Safety is the first concern, added miles per fill do little, if you are on you way to firey death.You've had enough "close encounters of the wrong kind"

I remember the first time I observed in person all of this LD activity, it was at Moon's 2002 Butt lite checkpoint, I was amazed all at the gas running out of bikes sitting there in the parking lot. If I remember correctly, on that day oil was running out of DS1.

Good luck on your IBA ride, it is a ride I will probably never attempt, so give it all you got. Additional fuel may be helpful, but certainly not a determining factor in your ability to complete the ride.


Be safe out there!

Bob