Greetings,

This is my first posting of a question for a discussion. I currently train in the art of TaeKwonDo. I've always been interested in all the fighting arts. A couple of months ago, I had the oppertunity to attend a Kenpo seminar hosted by our school in which Mr. Clint Hughes was the guest instructor. I was in total awe and immediately fell in love with kenpo. In our current studio, there is one instructor who teaches TaeKwonDo and Hapkido, the other instructor also teaches TaeKwonDo and Ed Parker's American Kenpo. In order to take Kenpo, you must be a Black Belt in TKD or Hapkido. Our instructor feels that having a solid foundation, discipline, and control expected of a Black Belt, would help improve the discipline required to train sucessfully in Kenpo. I respect and can see his point, but, on the other hand, I feel I am missing out on a oppertunity to train in an art because I am a lower belt rank. (Currently senior blue belt soon to be Brown) I know patience is the key and it can only help me become a better martial artist.
I welcome any opinions regarding this subject.

Thanks

Mark

Mark, first of all I too am new to this forum. I already had a Black Belt when I walked into an EPAK school in SoCal. Like you, I was in awe of what I saw and new from that moment on that Kenpo was for me. I have never regreted my decision to switch and consider myself fortunate to be a member of the Kenpo Community. You will probably get many opinions, but my humble opinion is to continue training in TKD (or preferrably Hapkido) and get your Black Belt. Although this is not at all necessary in order to study Kenpo, it will give you a good foundation, and more importantly, respectfully fulfill the requirement of your instructor. Kenpo will still be there for you in a year or two. The only problem I had was "unlearning" some things I had been taught in the previous system. I think once you begin training in Kenpo you will find that it is a nice "fit" for you, and can provide years of fulfillment on many levels. Good luck in your decision and in your training my friend.

Respectful salute,
KWM

Mark.
In the life, one of the lessons more difficult to learn it is the one of choosing what we want to make. The martial arts are languages of motion that your are expert in French doesn't give you the bases to speak to Spanish. The fundamental thing is that you practice where your feel better. Kenpo has its own bases and a strong foundation, structured in the logic but that in the tradition. The answer should find it in you.

Hector

Mark, I am a kenpo student and feel I can contribute something to your dilemna as there are alot of students at my school that have their black belts in TKD. I think the first thing a person has to ask themselves before studying a martial art is why are they taking it, how much time do they have available to put into it and what do they plan to do with the knowledge and skill once achieved. I have to tell you that when it comes to street fighting and application for self defense I feel Kenpo is one of the best if not the best martial art to study. Its basis of utilizing pricipals of motion in combination of linear and circular movement really compliments attacks, especially from multiple attackers. One big factor when studying Kenpo is it is difficult to become sufficient at because of all that it covers. I have found that the Kenpo students at my school that have BB's in TKD have an advantage until about the green belt level, which I am currently at, which is probably equivelent to your blue belt level at your school. When I spar against people that have TKD experience I find that they use more kicks for attacks than a typical Kenpo student. I dont, however, feel that they have any advantage over me or my skills. I think that making it mandatory to achieve BB in TKD before studying Kenpo at your school has some value to it as the more you know the better, but I certainly do not feel that it is need or will guarantee you to be a better or more skilled Kenpoist once you start to study. I think if you liked what you had seen from a Kenpoist then you should study it. You can take two arts at a time if you have the time even though a wise man once said to me that I should pick one martial art and stick to it, but I am planning to start taking Krav Magda once I achieve BB in Kenpo as I feel it will be an additional tool for street fighting. I hope this helps.

Respectfully,


Boston Shorty

You have to ask youself the question: will you find what you seek by getting your BB in TKD and then switching to Kenpo or by just switching to Kenpo.

Only you can answer that question.

Well, I'll play the devil's advocate here. Many people who see a demonstration of American Kenpo have the same reaction as yourself. That is how I got started- I saw a demonstration of American Kenpo and I couldn't sign up for lessons fast enough. It could be that your school has a policy that you must earn a black belt in TKD or Hapkido so that many of the students do not jump over to American Kenpo as you are tempted to do. In this way all the classes at your school would be ensured to have full enrollment. So, this requirement of your school could be largely a business decision.

There are pros and cons between achieving a black belt in TKD and Hapkido as a prerequisite to studying American Kenpo. Cross training is very common in the kenpo community and many kenpoists have studied TKD, including myself. If you read a copy of The Journey you will discover that many prominent kenpoists studied other arts before coming to kenpo, or currently cross train in other arts while studying kenpo. Some arts, however, are more compatable with the movements and theory of kenpo than others.

Switching from TKD to kenpo would require you to "unlearn" several things such as your stances, and other basic movements of that art. On the other hand, you should have a good foundation of your basics that may accelerate your kenpo training. Since, you are so invested in TKD at this point, why not just continue through BB rank and then start your Kenpo training?

It is so hard to give advise. Most of the Tae Kwon Do I have seen I do not like from a mechanical perspective. Even if there are good sound mechanics many times I see motion "gaps". On the other hand I have seen some really cool Korean stuff. So hard to say what you are being exposed to. Either the mechanics you are learning in Tae Kwon Do are foundational to correct motion science or they are not. The only thing I know about TKD is that most of what I have seen is bad from MY KENPO PERRSPECTIVE. I have also been told by people who know TKD that there are a couple of schools of thought in the art and one sucks and the other is older and established, containing correct mechanics. Which is which? Somebody on this forum could tell you, I am sure.

Another thing to consider is your body type. Is TKD an art which "fits" YOU. If you are really talented at it's material I might have a tendency to stay with it. Kenpo sublimates it'self to principles therefore it can be taylored more easily to a person than most arts. For example if there is a person attempting to jump off a cliff with a hang glider of a given wing span and they weigh 150lbs they will easily glide to the ground. But if I at 250lbs attempt the jump with the SAME glider I will crash. I can still use a glider and apply the same principles but I need a different wing span to achieve flight.

Mechanics aside. I will tell you that the hardest I have ever been hit was by a TKD guy. It was a kick that violates what I consider to be correct mechanics from a Kenpo standpoint. I was seriously damaged. In fact I gave up full contact fighting because of it. So hey who is to say what is right?

Lastly, remember that getting your black belt is only the start of the game. If you are going to a good TKD school you might want to stick it out for another year or two to say you finished what you started.

Respectfully,

Bob

...and let me emphasize, I'm not writing as somebody who's been all over the world, far from it, but so far--what's been amazing to me about the 3 or 4 TKD people I've worked out with is that they can't kick worth a damn. One would have thought...

But then, there's James Lee, who, "gets his tail kicked," (ha! suuure...) by Speakman in "The Perfect Weapon." We do not fool with Mr. Lee, or his stunt partner and fellow fight choreographer Jeff Imada (see John Carpenter's movies, and you've seen their work--apparently recently, it's all Imada), and it's my understanding that they originally trained TKD.

There's some parent art for TKD, whose name I can't recall, that if what I've read is correct, is the real deal. And, as we all know all too well about kenpo, there're TKD schools and then there're TKD schools.

All that said, it's my impression (again, speaking from a limited perspective) that kenpo is a more-comprehensive, more-complete art. After all, it was designed to be the "truth," about martial arts--as I've noted before, kenpo was meant to be radical not only in the sense of a departure from tradition, but in the way it articulated the roots of all arts. And so far--from a limited perspective--it's been my experience that people in other arts who are in my physical and experiential league don't have a chance, by comparasion.

Does this mean I can whup, say, Joe Lewis or a Gracie or Rulon the mad Wrestler or Tank? Course not, not on my best day, and probably not even if I'd started kenpo at four. Fortunately, they are not going to be the people I might have to whup...to quote Mr. Chapel, "there are no ninjas in the parking lot."

Are all arts created equal? For the very best, after thirty years of study, I'd tend to say yes--but this is because, I think, the very best after thirty years end up practicing something that looks, and works, suspiciously like kenpo. In fact the theory says that the other arts are sub-sets of kenpo to begin with.

I also would argue that there are arts out there that are poorly-constructed sub-sets of kenpo, so that if you match people who are roughly equal in terms of physical ability, aggressivity, education, experience, the kenpo person wins in a walk. If the theory is correct, this would also be true of matching people from other good arts.

Again, if we want to be practical at all, the question isn't one of how the likes of me stands against a professional fighter who's twenty years younger are far more athletically-gifted. (Remind me some time to go off on a rant about what professional athletes are like compared to us humans, but it is important to remember that the AVERAGE NFL lineman weighs what, 250-300+, and can run a 40-yard dash in 4.6-4.8 seconds...that's around a 11 second hundred, folks, and we don't even want to discuss reflexes, strength, or aggressivity.) Apples to apples, oranges to oranges.

Personally, if I ever get stupid and have to fight a fellow martial artist for real, I want it to be an incompetent one. So, I'm all for lazy idiots studying whatever lousy arts they can find...

Thanks,
Robert

.

From what I understand, TKD was formed as a collective of arts practiced in Korea, all similar in flavor and all related to Shotokan (and other Japanese arts), since the then-fascist Japanese had forced all the other arts out of Korea before banning the arts completely. For 40 years, it was Japanese arts or nothing, so when the Japanese left all the remaining martial artists had been practicing Shotokan publicly for 40 years, and gods-only-know privately.

So, when Korea became independent again, they attempted to restart old arts and brought a lot of stuff from China, but Shotokan remained at the core. They added in a lot of movements from a Korean kicking game called Te. They specialized in kicking, perhaps as a snub to the hands-heavy Japanese arts, and some denied the Shotokan part of their heritage.

Later, sport TKD was born and a completely different change happened. Quasi-governmental control led to a re-telling of TKD history. General Choi went to Canada, taking the strongest non-sport TKD with him. And other messes.

So, if there is any art that is the core of TKD, it would be Shotokan, sort of. You may be thinking of Tang-Soo-Do, which was the art of one of the fellows who formed the first TKD-related alliances that led eventually to TKD, though he apparently dropped out later. In any case, Tang-Soo-Do is a whole lot like the non-sport TKD.

All this if from a host of highly unreliable sources -- the internet, TKD and TSD practitioners, and the feeble crap that passes for martial arts history. In other words, the same feeble sources that form all our ideas about the development of the martial arts, in TKD, Kenpo, and everything else.

And it's highly disputed, sometimes angrily, especially about 1) Shotokan being practiced by the fellows who collaborated to form early TKD (see Korean govt's version for thier take), and 2) how closely the TSD guy was working with the rest of the TKD community back in the early days (see the accounts of some of the sub-communities in TSD for the alternate history).

For more details -- lots more details, contradictory details -- see the internet.

Peace,
Scott
trying to shed light, not start ... trouble.

I'm gonna hafta look it up.

Thanks,
Robert

Greetings. I am a student of Mr. Hughes. He rocks the party. I'm only a green belt, and have only instructors at camps and seminars to compare to, but he seems to be in the top tier from what I've seen.

A few things to think about...

They offer Kenpo as additional material after black belt. Where is the TKD material? My brother is 5th black in a non-sport, classical TKD, and he tells me he had new material well past his 1st black. Sport TKD (World Taekwondo Federation and such) has much less material, and some obvious holes, so you may want to see what kind of TKD you are learning as a first step. Hapkido is fun, though, from what I've seen (from what my brother has done to me when I play dummy for his Hapkido stuff). Again, is it good Hapkido or bad?

Second, are you going to learn good kenpo from your TKD teacher? If Kenpo is an add-on to TKD training, I fear the instructor may have changes many of the mechanics and some of the philosophies of the kenpo material. The 2 arts just don't mesh well (I know, I'm foolishly taking both right now). If this instructor has changed the kenpo to fit TKD, it may be quite messy. Has this instructor learned the kenpo well? Or did he perhaps only learn part of the system, then switched to TKD and thinks he can work the stuff in? I don't know what the answer is, obviously, but you should try and get an answer.

Third, do you have an option for American Kenpo? If Mr. Hughes was doing a seminar, I bet you are somewhere in the midwest. That means little or no American Kenpo avialable (there may be Tracy's Kenpo avialable, but it's not the same and you may want to do research first). You may not have much choice.

Lastly, some of the other posters are correct. TKD, at least some TKD, can be great stuff. No art is intrinsically better than others. Are you happy with your school? If yes, work harder. If not, find somewhere else and work harder. We can all work harder!

Advice: contact Mr. Hughes and ask him what he thinks. He knows about your school, obviously, and he will know about Kenpo in the area. Also, one of his students, Keith, comes from a school with the exact same setup (maybe from your school!) and may be able to give a very, very well informed suggestion. Mr. Hughes' email should be in the UKKD section of this site, or either moderator (one of which is Mr. Hughes) can help as well. He can give you a good, unbiased, and very well-informed opinion if you ask.

Peace,
Scott

PEACE.





did you hear who is going to bat for RUSH down in Florida?

Yup. No surprise to me. Left, right, or middle, the ACLU will back you. Now, I don't know if Rush had his rights trampled (haven 't cared enough to look), but apparently someone in the ACLU thinks so.

Peace,
Scott
P.S. Sorry for non-kenpo content. I'm trying to keep it short.

Greetings,

I would like to thank everyone who responded to my question. Your wisdom about the subject presented, really has helped me. Responding to the last reply, I live in La Crosse WI where Keith hails from. He was great at the Kenpo seminar with Mr. Hughes. When I started my martial arts training, I went to all 4 studios located in town. I wanted to make sure that the instructors were what they advertised, the school philosophies were solid and promoted not the almighty dollar per lesson, but a rich tradition of respect and excellence. Not only for each other in the studio, but the community in which we live. I chose the studio I currently attend and I can honestly say I have no regrets. I respect my instructors greatly and, knowing that I will have the oppertunity to expand in my martial arts training with Kenpo when the time is right, only adds strength to my short and long term goals.

I believe that I will receive excellent training in Kenpo from the studio I attend and I am very greatful to have that oppertunity waiting for me. I love TaeKwonDo and I see that it will provide a strong foundation for me mentally, physically and spiritually in my life long training in the martial arts.

Thanks again

Mark

Don't forget, getting your BB is just the beginning.

When you start in on your Kenpo, all of the sudden grappling will start looking pretty cool too.

I agree with the Inst. I feel that it is important to have a base in 1 art before you begin the cross training journey. Not familiar with TKD, so I know that you said that you were a high blue, getting ready for brown. How many more belts before your black??

I see nothing wrong with wanting to try another art. Sure there will be alot of differences, but you shouldnt have a problem adapting.

Mike