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Grip of Death

October 25 2007 at 3:24 PM
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  (Login jasonasmith)
from IP address 71.254.194.42

 
....was one of the first techniques that I was ever taught, and it's one of the ones that I still have trouble with in my practisings...So, give me a hand will ya' please? One of the biggest things for me is moving to the close kneel with the double hammerfists...I always feel like I'm falling over, so let's start there...
Thanks in advance to everyone willing to help,
Take Care...

 
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AuthorReply
Dave Crouch, DC
(Login DrDaveDC)
71.134.236.235

A good rule of thumb...

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October 25 2007, 4:58 PM 

"If you feel unstable, it's because you are." Many get this way because they step around the bad guy, rather than through him. Cut a path in your step that chips a corner off his edges, and stabilize your stance as a seperate isolation in practice before adding the hammerfists.

 
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(Login jasonasmith)
71.254.194.42

Thanks

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October 25 2007, 5:54 PM 

Doc, that helps...

 
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(Login seabrook1)
142.158.27.185

Re: A good rule of thumb...

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October 26 2007, 10:51 AM 

That is great advice Dave. You beat me to it.


Jamie Seabrook
www.jamieseabrook.com

 
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(Login DanPuleo)
65.8.209.151

Re: Grip of Death

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October 25 2007, 5:03 PM 

This may be a case of the blind leading the blind, as I am only a newly promoted green belt. Then again, it may be of use that I'm not as far removed from what it was like to answer the same questions for myself... We were taught that the attack is a 'wrenching' headlock - as if the attacker is trying to spiral you to the ground. You comply with their momentum. In so doing, your right leg will have to plant forward kinda hard - akin to the way you would stabilize yourself if suddenly shoved from behind. Due to the twisting nature of the wrench, your right leg should now be close to 10:30. The left leg follows immdediately afterward,(a half beat behind at most)driving your left knee into the side of his right leg as you hit your stance. If you're using a static headlock as the attack, then, yeah...I imagine it would feel awkward to shorten your stance into the close kneel with his weight already bearing down on you - it's Pincher time at that point. Hope that helps.

 
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(Login jasonasmith)
71.254.194.42

It does...

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October 25 2007, 5:55 PM 

...Thanks

 
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tom bleecker
(Login kenpotom)
207.200.116.196

In response

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October 25 2007, 8:04 PM 

Perhaps it's interesting that for many years this technique wasn't done initially with a closed kneel stance - neither in the technique line nor the form. Personally I agree with your assessment in feeling uncomfortable swinging around into a closed kneel. Besides feeling less stable, the angle doesn't feel as natural, and I find I can't deliver as much power to the double hammerfists when dropping into this closed kneel. Just my nickel's worth.

Salute

 
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Jason Smith
(Login jasonasmith)
71.254.194.42

So....

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October 25 2007, 9:47 PM 

What's your recommendation then, Sir?

 
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tom bleecker
(Login kenpotom)
207.200.116.196

My recommendation?

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October 25 2007, 10:31 PM 

Tailoring - to do what works best for you. That aside, I understand the reason behind the close kneel, essentially to better protect one's groin. For me, however, I'd rather drop into a solid stance and, using marriage of gravity (Dave Hebler likes "drop your weight on the sucker!) add considerably more power to the two hammerfist strikes. The bottom line my groin isn't open for that long - perhaps a fraction of a second - and so I'm running the risk of trading a scoop for two hammerfists - groin and kidney - and I'll take it. But as Bruce Lee often said, what works for one guy may get another guy in serious trouble. So one has to make his or her own judgments - always remembering the words of our founder, "Not everyone wears a size 42 coat."


Salute

 
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(Login seabrook1)
142.158.27.185

Why a close kneel is more advantageous

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October 26 2007, 10:56 AM 

The close kneel stance and leg buckle controls the opponent's width so that he can't start punching you with his left arm, and gives the opponent an angle of disturbance. With a horse stance, you also run the risk of getting a heel scoop to the groin, not to mention the possibility of a leg buckle as well.


Jamie Seabrook
www.jamieseabrook.com

 
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tom bleecker
(Login kenpotom)
207.200.116.196

Expanding...

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October 26 2007, 2:49 PM 

I hear what you're saying with regard to the possible scoop and having your opponent doing the fist polka on your face. That said, would you agree that both hammerfists (groin and kidney) are severe blows, at least to the degree of having your opponent forget for the moment about scooping and punching? If true, and (1) given that those two hammerfists are difficult, if not impossible, to block because (2)your opponent's arms are committed to the headlock, and (3) your two counterstrike hammerfists land simultaneously with the planting of your right foot, how important really is this "possiblity" of scooping and punching? This window of opportunity is extremely slight, actually the time it takes you to swing around and plant your foot. Also, keep in mind that the decision to drop into a close kneel or horse occurs at the end of that thin window. As to the buckle, this isn't as easy in real time as it is on paper and sometimes can put you in harm's way. Finally, I wonder why it took so long for our founder to change this? How long was it, by the way? And did Mr. Parker change this stance? (I don't recall the technique application being changed in the form). Thanks for your post. It appears that many of us are enjoying this thread.

With respect,
tom bleecker

 
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(Login seabrook1)
142.158.27.185

Further expansion....

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October 26 2007, 3:00 PM 

Good post Tom.

I agree in theory with what you are stating but if we are caught off guard when the headlock is forcefully applied to us, and we are yanked hard, it will likely negate a lot of the power that we can get in the two hammerfists because we are in the mode of "save ourself" rather than "search and destroy". I believe that we can train ourselves to instantly use the close kneel stance in this technique and by doing so, it offers us a lot safer of a defense. Also, as we commonly say in Kenpo, "in our defense is our offense simultaneously".



Jamie Seabrook
www.jamieseabrook.com

 
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Craig Tavis
(Login chtavis)
24.18.93.65

even further....

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October 26 2007, 4:00 PM 

I practice this tech with a kid whose a great wrestler, young and strong as heck. When he pulls me around I step forward, keep my back as straight as I can and bury my knee into the back of his calf. He invariably posts to the ground with his left hand releasing the head lock. At this point I have his HW&D. Real easy to hurt him in many bad ways from here. I see the close kneel as the crux of the technique for this reason.

Thanks!
CT

but that's just my opinion I could be wrong.
Dennis Miller

 
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(Login SCChuck1)
75.176.149.36

Re: even further....

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October 26 2007, 7:12 PM 

That's exactly my take on this technique.
It may be hard to tell who you are dealing with on this technique until it is too late to adjust. The close kneel and leg buckle seems to be practicing for the worst-case scenario.
That's my nickle's worth.

Take it out on the heavy bag,

Chuck Peterson
Peterson_charlie@hotmail.com

 
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(Login jasonasmith)
71.114.128.38

I know that I am

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October 26 2007, 4:14 PM 

...enjoying it, and I'm glad that I started it...

 
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Ray Albrechtsen
(Login KenpoRay)
71.7.79.105

Re: Grip of Death

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October 25 2007, 8:58 PM 

The step to 10:30 as already mentioned is a big help in making the technique work. I have watched students make the step as though they were stepping around a tree.

If you don't step into a close kneel and buckle the attacker's right leg, then who's to say you couldn't deliver your left knee to back of thigh or upper tibia?

And (as Brad Billings reminded me recently) when you step step so your back straightens erect.

A similar technique is done in Dan Zan Ryu ju jitsu, except it's a right middle knuckle fist to the back of attacker's hand and (I think a left middle knuckle fist) to the spine. However, once the arms are loose, they grab the belt with the left hand and go for a hammer lock.

 
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Brye Cooper
(Login BC07)
75.37.131.31

angle of disturbance

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October 26 2007, 6:13 PM 

Look at the dimensional zones you are attacking and the cause and effect of your first move to your last move, remember we are all different both physically and mentally.

It sounds to me you have been trying to perform the tech by wrote, analyze what forces are at work here, what is the purpose of the initial step? It is important to remember the strikes are useless unless you have created the correct angle of disturbance, cancelled the right dimensional zones and had the internal effect on the opponents skeleton from the tips of his fingers to the tips of his toes, this is not difficult to do if you understand the physics and geometry employed in regards to anotomy.

Ask the questions that are required of you in studying each Tech idea, ask the question "The idea of this technique is what?." study and find the why of the Tech in each sequence.

You will have to make Tailored adjustments for different people but the same principles apply, study those and you will have success.

Remember analyze don't memorize.

Best in Kenpo,
Brye Cooper
AKKF

 
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