I've been thinking about this technique a bit lately and I'm sort of confused as to it's practicality.

For example, it is a bear hug from behind arms free, however in the real world scenario the opponent is likely to be in motion and either tackling you to the ground or lifting you in order to crush or perform a greco roman style throw.

The technique works fine from a stationary position, which would be great if it were an unsolicited come-on against a woman. However, once motion and momentum are introduced it is a whole different ball game where Spiraling Twig is more appropriate.

I'd be grateful for any feedback on this.

The first one is that you wouldn't want to wait until the attacker locks the "rear bear hug with arms free" on. If you do, you may find yourself exactly as you described.

However, if you begin your defense as the attacker starts to apply the bear hug, crashing wings may, in fact, work just fine.

The next thought is that perhaps spiralling twig is the what if/even if/formulation/position recognition (whatever your "camp" chooses to call it) for crashing wings.

Third thought would be that we have past tense, present tense, and future tense in languages (conjugation). Perhaps we have that also in our self defense techniques. Therefore, crashing wings may be the past (attack is attempted), spiralling twig is the present tense (attack in progress/locked in)... What would be the future tense???

Then there's the thought that the techniques are examples of things you could do if you found yourself in a certain set of circumstances and we shouldn't get locked in to have to do technique A when in this set of circumstances....

Again, just some thoughts as I sit here after a very long work week...

Salute,
Brad

or in line at a theater. Something in the environment dictates a limited range for the attacker. They have to make a decision, they left their weapon at home, they've been stalking you for days and they just caught up to you after losing sight of you for a day or so. Due to your excessive internet chat room exposure, the guy knows you hate it when people come up from behind and grab you.

Wait. You wanted an Ideal Phase discussion about a self defense technique. My bad. Erase, erase. Ignore me at your leisure.

Clark

...for how you might find yourself in the ideal phase of this technique: Perhaps you are being held in place so a second attacker can work you over, as in Bear and the Ram. Also, suppose you are lifted. You could start firing rear heel kicks to the inside of their knees or shins, in which case, they might maintain their grip but drop you back into position to use Crashing Wings.

Yes? No? Maybe?

Dan Puleo

using a bear hug from behind, while picking the guy up is to be holding a dead weight. Kicking to the legs would be more like scrapping I think, you don't have a foot on the ground (assuming) and that means your kick lever (foot on ground)is not working with your knee lever as you kick. Dead weight AS you scrape down the legs might be preferable.

Clark
Ideal Phase is silly, ask Igy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3K-mrlYG7Y

Check out the 2:20 mark. I was thinking along the lines of Scraping Hoof with the legs dangling, so scraping sounds good, too.

Dan Puleo

instead of dead weight, you could lift both feet up towards your head and maybe the guy grabbing you will fall backwards. Let's hope he doesn't swing around and land on top of you, but then why is he picking you up in the first place?

Dead weight using gravity, Compressing weight for toppling. What a strange conversation we are having. LOL

Clark

Good post, and again a tech that many under the scenario you describe struggle with. Especially if you are of a smaller stature than your opponent, which will likely be the case if the attack was initiated. The reason I say this, is from experience and logic. Nobody smaller than you is going to try to apply this tech realistically, unless like you say he was trained to take you down in such a manner.

I think it is safe to say that the attacker in the ideal phase, is attempting to cancel your height in an aggressively upward direction (even prior to a takedown this is the case only not in a lifting you back to six o'clock fashion) taking the weight of your feet in order to maneuver you.

You may want to try this:

Once the hug is applied and the base disturbed or lifted to the degree that you are unable to step and utilize marriage of gravity in your first move, quickly tuck your chin in bringing your head and shoulders forward, at the same time bring your knees up in the direction of your chest in a tuck (the depth of tuck will be relative to his response), as you tuck rotate your shoulders slightly to the left and raise your hands behind your head. You will find that your combined weight and rotation will bring his mass forward and to his left, taking the weight of his feet destabilizing his base. Immediately plant your left foot and crash your wings.

This should be practice in an explosive manner, as time delay will allow him to naturally re-align his body into a more stable position. You want to eliminate his foot maneuvers.

Practice this and analyze it from a third eye position so that you can monitor the reaction of the attackers body, observing the disruption of his dimensional zones.

Let me know how it works for yea.

Best in Kenpo,
Brye Cooper
UKF

It works for full nelson applications to (because you know when applied its a bugger to get out of, especially if he has you bent over, in which case he has already triggered the response). I complete the tuck into a roll. He will roll with you and you will land on top of him. At which point I like to roll backwards over his face breaking his hold, if he has miraculously managed to maintain it, and out... or what ever coarse of action you decide.

Best In Kenpo,
Brye Cooper
UKF.

...Bear and the Ram or Crashing Wings?

I posted earlier with some scenarios in which Crashing Wings might be practically applied because, well, that is what was asked. I neglected to mention that it probably isn't the first thing I'd attempt against an aggressive bear hug either. Reason being, to my thinking, you'd have to initiate that crash almost instantly for it to work before a lift or takedown occurs, but how reflexive is it when someone grabs you to load your arms (by which I mean thrust them out into space) in order to create the necessary travel for the elbow strikes? Maybe it's just me, but my hands reflexively go to where I'm being grabbed. Additionally, lowering my center when I'm being jostled around is automatic. Reserving the drop until my arms are raised in order to synchronize with the elbows, for me, would require either a presence of mind that I don't yet possess or a delay in reaction time. In the few live instances where I've had to contend with a rear bear hug, I countered it each and every time by intercepting the guy's hands as they came around and preventing the clasp. That might have involved some luck on my part, or else my reflexes served me well. Looking back, if I had been studying Kenpo at the time, I would have been in a great position to use Spiraling Twig or part of Repeated Devastation. If I'd have said "Here comes a hug" and raised my arms to strike instead, I would have allowed what could have been avoided and then had to fall back on trying to break the hold.

With Bear and the Ram, however, we are already in a bear hug, but the more imminent threat is coming from the other guy who's trying to punch us. To contend with him, we raise our hands in defense and our foot to kick. The dispersion of force from the kick to the incoming attacker should momentarily disrupt the rear attacker, and suddenly taking advantage of that "load" to crash down with our mass and weapons on the bear hug seems like a terrific idea. Made me wonder if Bear and the Ram was devised first and Crashing Wings sprung out of it. I'd be curious to know if anyone has the answer.

Thanks,

Dan Puleo

Environment plays a part- is it crowded with limited movement? is the person grabbing from behind because they ended up behind you and just dont' know what else to do. It is also possible this is a way that an individual may try to restrain you without even considering throwing you. not everyone is an educated fighter or has knowledge of how to properly throw someone much less what to do with them after they are on the ground. It is always good to have these different tools for different jobs (variations of techniques)for when you need them. I have seen this technique pulled off quite well during aggressive random attack drills in the dojo as well.
-David

that sees your opponent attack from the front, initiating the hold then slipping around to the back where they flip you to the ground.

Of course you could probably intercept this with Charging Ram or such like.

...if the attacker is in motion you're defending a tackle not bear hug. If the attacker is lifting you, you're defending a throw and not a grab.

Crashing Wings is for when you are stationary. What you do to go from moving to stationary (if necessary) is covered in other techniques. Consequently, Spiraling Twig would be no more appropriate since it starts with the same reference footwork and therefore the same bracing angles...and those angles would be weak from a rear attack with momentum.

James Hawkins III, SI
Hawkins Kenpo Ju Jitsu
Baltimore, MD
http://youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kenpojujitsu3
http://www.myspace.com/kenpojames
410-948-1440

What would be the purpose of someone statically grabbing you in such a manner from behind?

If the guy is string and/or is a practised grappler his grip would be very powerful. I also think, from experience, that this attack would never be static.

I understand the concept of 'ideal phase' however I wanted to point out that as it stands (pun intended) this technique just doesn't relate to the street.

Spiralling Twig works in motion because your feet can be dynamically rectifying your balance and stabilising your base while in motion, as your arms work his grip.

"What would be the purpose of someone statically grabbing you in such a manner from behind?"

1) Environment - there is a barracade in front of you when you are grabbed. You raise your hands to keep your face from hitting the barricade. You are now stationary with hands high in a rear bear hug.

2) Who said that just because the ideal attack idea starts with so-and-so attack that the technique has to be done in response to an initial assault? You're in the middle of a scuffle, the person does a duck under on you and ends up behind you. Watch the UFC's before they banned grabbing the fence. You saw this position ALL THE TIME. Guy with hands raised hanging onto the fence with the opponent holding a reat bear hug trying to take them down.

"If the guy is string and/or is a practised grappler his grip would be very powerful. I also think, from experience, that this attack would never be static."

See above about it not needing to be an initial attack.

"I understand the concept of 'ideal phase' however I wanted to point out that as it stands (pun intended) this technique just doesn't relate to the street."

OK, following the logic of the attack not translating to the street in the ideal (read: learning) phase...well let's question the following attacks as well then.

1) Full Nelson - you have to be dazed, inept or worked into this hold. It doesn't just happen.

2) Figure Four Arm Lock - Not a hold someone with skill would go to as an opening attack, it's a followup.

3) ALL of the bear hugs - momentum comes with these kind of attacks as the person closes the distance.

4) All of the lapel grabs - momentum comes with these kind of attacks as the person closes the distance.

5) ALL of the tackles - these are taught at waist level, a skilled tackler will tackle lower than this.

6) All of the step through straight punches - a skiled attacker is going to give a jab off the lead hand followed by cross. If it's a step through it's going to be a circular blow.

7) ALL of the weapon defenses - the stick attacks occur at hand range not stick range, the knife attacks are over extended plus over committed, and a skilled gunman will keep his distance.

8) The Low Push - who the hell pushes at the hips on an intial move? No one, pushes are commonly to the chest and shoulder area..or the upper back if coming from the rear.

9) ALL of the kicks - Who the hell is mugging me with a front step through kick? Bruce Lee?

"Spiralling Twig works in motion because your feet can be dynamically rectifying your balance and stabilising your base while in motion, as your arms work his grip."

I fail to see why you couldn't also do that in Crashing Wings..considering that the only reason you do Spiraling Twig is when the Crashing Elbows don't work or his hands are locked too high to connect with the elbows. Translation, Crash wings...still holding on?....middle knuckle..he let's go..now step behind him and rearrange his face with the elbow as originally planned. The Hug techniques just like the nelson techniques are all pieces of a whole....

Or think of it this way..what have you REALLY done to hurt him in spiraling twig for him to let you pirrotte away and do that wrist lock (ideally)? Middle knuckling his hands? I don't think so.



James Hawkins III, SI
Hawkins Kenpo Ju Jitsu
Baltimore, MD
http://youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kenpojujitsu3
http://www.myspace.com/kenpojames
410-948-1440

Better be careful. Once they see u growing a brain its all uphill for you.
Now this technique is tricky cause it starts off from a position of disadvantage. Attacking the arms is a waste of time. U are already caught. Its like Checkers, he's jumped u and he still has another move to make. Its not suppose to be your move! After the grab he has only 2 choices. The technique should start after he makes a choice and begins execution. Hope im making sense to you.

www.groups.yahoo.com/group/kkfmama for all things Kenpo in East Africa

James Hawkins III, SI
Hawkins Kenpo Ju Jitsu
Baltimore, MD
http://youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kenpojujitsu3
http://www.myspace.com/kenpojames
410-948-1440

Why do you say that Sir? Is it because you feel that you wont be able to achieve a release? If so I understand your comment.

But! I urge you to analyze the purpose of the crashing wings beyond attacking the forearms. It is not meant to achieve release at this point, If anything this would allow the attacker to disengage... and we want him right were he is.

The purpose of the crashing wings is to disable the arms momentarily as you step around into the lifting elbow, and simultaneously canceling zones that effect height, width and depth, thus allowing for greater contact manipulation and a more controlled aggressive offense. Attacking the attack.

Best in Kenpo,
Brye Cooper.
UKF.