Ok, I am not usually one to start a thread on here but tire of some of the stuff that we seem to spend too much time on as I am sure others do also. So let me ask a question that may help someone somewhere in their journey.
With all of the principles and concepts that exist in the kenpo system or the Arts for that matter, and all of the information there is to draw on, what in your opinion and experience would be the three most likely candidates (principle or concept) for importance to the laymen for self-defense in a combat situation?
Let me elaborate, let's say you have three weeks to work with a guy and off he goes never to be seen again. you want him/her to be able to defend him/herself effectively. What three main (master keys) if you want to call them that, would you teach this person?
I look forward to the interaction. if this has been on before let me know and I will delete the post.
Good Journey,
Todd Durgan
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1) Toe Heel line EVERY TIME THEY STEP BACK. NB's being glorified hoarse stances, the toe heel line creates the mobility and the ability to use all weapons and also gives the primary stance variations of FB, RB and their variants, WK, CK, Concave and Diamond. If the guy goes away ands can hit the neutral he can pick up the rest of the stuff with someone else. This is accomplished with an understanding of weight transfer and knowing when you should have one Heel up, and one Heel down. Also known as "Heel toe forward, Toe heel backwards. When the guy steps back to a NB is he turning his hips and sweeping his foot back or is he stepping back normally and then settling into his NB.
2) Upward block. It's got two punches and two elbow strikes in it. I wouldn't recommend that the upward block (the way I understand it to work) be used against a punch grab or strike to the face/head area, but it does an important thing for the beginner. First, it brings the blocking arms elbow into the centerline of the body. Second, it teaches the arm to form a corkscrew punch, granted on a diagonally upward path, but never the less, it still is a punch. The reverse motion of the upward block brings some wicked marriage of gravity to both the inward overhead elbow and that back elbow that is also in BS1.
3) Blocking Set 1 (BS1). Point of Origin is coming from this set. It takes the guess work out of where your arms should and could be during a confrontation. Learn to do it reverse and all ten of the yellow belt techniques can be done at some point of the set.
Clark
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So, in the question it was asked "principle or concepts", in your second lesson you want to teach an upward block, with all that fancy stuff attached.
Why not give them the idea/concept of forward and reverse as it applies to motion and let that be a tool with which they may grow themselves after they have left your tutelage?
Remember this is all in fun for the sake of understanding???
great stuff so far.
Good Journey,
Todd Durgan
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Principle - an accepted or professed rule of action or conduct: a person of good moral principles.
Concept - 1. general notion or idea; conception.
2. an idea of something formed by mentally combining all its
characteristics or particulars; a construct.
I'm gonna stay away from discussing your response to my response, this is where the original post is lost in the wilderness.
Clark
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OK, I didn't mean to come across like I was attacking your write up and ideas, after reading what I wrote I see how it could have been mis understood. I really am not trying to be argumentative or get anyone going, just trying to get some honest kenpo ideas floating around.
What I meant to get to was that you have the choice to teach them principles or concepts (from the original question)with that in mind would the concept/principle of fwd and reverse be a better lesson than starblock set with starblock set being the catalyst through which you teach the concept?
I know what a concept vs. a principle is. Thank you for clearing that up though.
Good Journey,
Todd Durgan
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which is putting the cart before the horse I think but oh well,,,,,
The principles we hold to from BS1 allow us to search for and then either interpret OR create a viewable conceptual model within the pattern.
Last night I taught BS1 to a student and she asked me why I was teaching it backward, starting where the push down ends and rewinding the whole thing back to the Upward Block.
Just 7 months ago I would have not had a very good answer, but, since December I can answer those kinds of questions be cause there are a huge number of position recognition points within the pattern. As I describe the applications against the attacks in the set I see that there are points where moving backwards (her words) through the set allow me to apply Sword of Destruction, where going forward shows me Delayed Sword. That is how I explained it to her.
So, the conceptual Model (Sword of Destruction) can be seen/performed within the reverse pattern where it would not normally be done in the forward pattern. This is based on the ideal of the Natural Stance, whatever that is at the time we sally forth from it, and the how Point of Origin dictates response to the attack.
Point of Origin - Principle (?)
Forward and Reverse - Concept (?)
Back up mass - concrete and physical, a force to be organized and employed with Body Alignment and manipulation of our HWD zones that combine to create a correlation of Force through the attack that destroys the attackers HWD zones. Manipulate your HWD and destroy his..
Point your knee or elbow at the target and let fly.
Keep your head on the swivel when performing foot maneuvers.
Keep your elbows anchored with one hand up, one hand down.
Buy into the Yellow belt material because each technique is an amalgamate of the techniques that came before.
There are no Ideals, only postures, positions and actions through the gap that can suggest the attackers intent.
Timing and Distance is you ally, mix up your foot work to control the gap.
Hips control feet, not feet control hips.
Heel toe forward, toe heel back.
And on and on.......... I make assumptions at the keyboard that I would not when time and space are less ideal.
Clark
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I just reread your post and noticed that you mentioned number two as the second lesson. Actually, all three of the topics I posted were for the very first day.
By the end of the week, given that the student comes three times each week, the student can walk and talk Kenpobubblegum well enough that their feet don't swing back, their upward block is pointed away from their head and BS1 has depth of action and can be done with opposed arms. Week two is where we can get as far as Deflecting Hammer and the undewrstanding of which leg/foot is the controlling point of directional changes in SF1.
I am leaving out all the stuff that can be taught in the areas of weight transfer, posture and heel/ball pivoting. Even a ten year white belt can find something new to learn, and even a twenty year black belt can see the light come on above his head. Still learnin' after all these years!
Clark
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This was all hypothetical and only meant to create dialogue in the direction of actual kenpo in the first place, was not meant to be a pissing match to see who know's more or has more experience or who is the best teacher bla bla bla.... This is why I don't start post's on this or any other site. And will try to refrain from any others for a while to come.
Clark you are I am sure a fine teacher and your students I am sure are very addept fighters and knowledgable kenpoists/martial artists. I wish you luck and success in your journey.
Todd
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Funny, I had 2 people ask for just about that scenario in the last week. I told them I didnt know how to show them skills that would do that.
I'd go meta in answering that, rather than just 3 specific skills:
1)situational awareness
2) control HWD zones (method of execution would be for them to continue to work on)
3) keep a good base
If I could only do 3 basic level things it would be 1)kick to the center line 2) head butt 3) crossing talon
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I agree. In three weeks, you can not teach one a decent defense that will be of any real help in the real world.
Teaching them aggressive attacks that can smother possible threats would be the way to go. Keeping it simple, you drill the hell out of it in that three weeks. Possibly using high stress training to simulate adrenaline dumps and fear one would experience in a real confrontation.
Principle and concepts are for life long martial artists. Not for a 3 week self defense course.
Not sure if you are serious, but I'll say hogwash!
Self defense is tricky, attack is not something to do, unless they have really commited and then it has to be more of a self defense, rather than an attack...
Of course you might strike to protect oneself, but the idea of tora, tora, tora...Is not cutting it.
The one thing that I believe is important is mobility and fluidity...Not something taught it seems..Stuck stance is only going to get the 3 weeker in problems IMHO...Most of what I see is they are getting hit by the instructor, not my idea of learning basic's...Being hit for others entertainment sucks...
Basics, learning the blocks and foot movement to avoid.
Then, you have to instruct to evade it the best way possible, if needed, be a victim for a second...
I have to tell you that many just don't really teach right imho of course.
Basics is it, but the basics in EPAK are sort of skewed...
Why my Grandson is taking boxing now, rather then his MA, he said not enough real striking (bags etc in Kenpo the fist art) The folks in the gym laugh at MA, it seems the TKD and Kenpo type anyway... Just a thought...
Regards
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The best defense is always a good offense. If you sit back and wait for someone to try and hit you, they will. You can move and avoid all you want, but in the end, you will still get hit. However, if you put pressure on the attacker, you make him defend, which I'm sure he was not prepared to do, and you keep the pressure on until he can no longer hurt you. Aside from running away (which is always the best option, but not always possible), hurting your attacker is the best way to protect yourself.
To key to winning a physical confrontation is to become more violent than your opponent. If tries to grab you, you strike him. If he tries to punch you, you strike repeatedly and overwhelmingly. If he brings a knife, you bring a gun. Violence is the key to victory. Most people will back down once they know you are fighting back, because they weren't expecting it. You disrupted their plan and got the upper hand. Why do you think we train with so many strikes in our techniques? If one doesn't do the job, the next one will, and if that doesn't work, then the next one will, and so on until your attacker gives up, or he can't continue. That is the physical aspect of self-defense.
The only thing you can teach someone in a couple of weeks is to keep their hands up and elbows in to protect themselves, and that will usually go out the window after the first punch is thrown. Anything else you try teaching them will just clutter their mind and reduce their reaction time. What they really need to know is that they can take a hit and keep fighting. This is probably the most important lessen I ever learned.
After reading your post, I will now give up kenpo, because the guys at the gym laugh at it. I'm sure the guys at the gym are experts. If you haven't figured it out yet, it's not the system, it's the practitioner that makes the system work.
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Yea, go to a gym get your head gear on, two who are intent on fighting...It is a good experience for sure. I would not give up Kenpo, but I would add other arts to it.
Training is high on the list of things to do. Hand and foot movement, and as I mentioned a strike or two...Blocks in Kenpo are strikes also
One thing for sure, I would do, put them on a speed bag for 5 minutes a lesson, also the body bag, 5 mins...
Regards,
Gary
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Arthur Abraham won his fight last night also (boxing) very tough man. One of those who has an unusual style they say, for my way of thinking it is very good.
Probably about as good as I could do playing Kobe Bryant in a game of one-on-one. I'm not a professional athlete and don't train to fight professional athletes.
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Probably about as good as I could do playing Kobe Bryant in a game of one-on-one. I'm not a professional athlete and don't train to fight professional athletes.
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Probably about as good as I could do playing Kobe Bryant in a game of one-on-one. I'm not a professional athlete and don't train to fight professional athletes.
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Gary A Brewer aka BGile (Login BGile) 74.47.192.90
Re: How good would I do?
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June 29 2009, 10:36 AM
Sort of a question to all...
But since you did answer. I'll mention I trained to be able to fight, anyone that came my way... It had to do with my vocation. If you could not beat them hand to hand, you used something else to turn the tide, if that did not work, you used deadly force...Pretty simple really.
Survival of the fittest, or luckiest at the time.
So I do consider my path being one that was tempered with fire... If you get my drift.
Regards,
Gary
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You know they laugh because they didn't have the luck to find a good instructor to impart real Kenpo to them. Cant really blame them for being stupid. Some of them will sooner or later laugh them selves into an encounter with a Kenpoist who really knows some of the art and by then they will have ingrained to many habits from their sports method to change.
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..its going to have to be very simple so my 3 things would be;
1) Step off line and up or down the circle on an attack
2) A good right hand cross
3) Keep your damn hands up
My 2 cent.
Regards
Darren Mahony.
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Gary A Brewer aka BGile (Login BGile) 74.47.192.90
Re: Pre-emptive engagement, depth-penetration, and accelerated multiplicity...a.k.a.,
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June 27 2009, 6:47 PM
It is what many would think, if one is engaged in a true fight, of superior force? Would it be the way to go?
"Go Rin Sho", would it have us believe that? The message that book sends, has many answers/advice. Various situations...
If you are interested in the messages put down in that book you should read, Samurai Strategies "42 secrets from Musashi's Book of Five Rings"... A must read for any serious Martial Artist.
I only mention that book, "Go Rin Sho". Because it is a guide for many regarding war, business, etc.. It is about ways of winning. The "Samurai Way of Winning".
My mention might irriate some, to bringing it up, but it is an important addition to ones collection of advice.
It should/would be a must read for any student in the first week (Samurai Strategies written 2005, fairly recent, another reason I mention it), to assist in what is written, in Go Rin Sho.
Or, I guess you could copy and give to the student, in a hand out, typed up, giving credit!!!
Regards,
Gary
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Main concepts I'd try to teach em is awareness & prevention. Self-Defense Technique-wise I'd focus on KISS or Keep It Simple Stupid. Which is not to say they are stupid but the reflex I would try to ingrain would have to be so simple that when the mind goes stupid as it often does when the **** hits the fan, they can still execute it.
For example, a palm slap/strike to the nose is a good distract for using a circle to escape, one taking the mind off the other. Since the hands tend to flinch upward it could be a simple conversion to ingrain. Rather then teaching the details involved in the many types of Crossing Talon-like escapes in the martial arts just explaining it as using a circle to get the release is easier for them to remember, quicker to explain which also allows more reps to be done without the instructor droning on and on about things the student is not going to remember yet alone understand.
Where the head goes the body follows and when that rule is broken so is the neck. Is another concept/technique that is profoundly simple to understand and to apply. It also brings into question the "taking of life" which is something that anyone serious about self-defense should
come to terms with. It is like a wake up call to some that hey we are dealing with the realm of life or death.
Attacking the eyes, groin, nose, throat and ears as well as the fingers can be great for a quick
exit and get the student to understand that a great deal of strength is not always needed to defend yourself.
Again its sort of a crash course in get the F outta there method cause u only got 3 weeks of kenpo under your belt and of course the cover out is always in the direction of the nearest "good" Kenpo instructor for more lessons lol!
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Hi Mr. Durgan,
Brief Introduction first; I train with Gene Eckhart near Seattle.
Week One: I would first teach the subject the mechanics of a proper Neutral Bow and Forward Bow. Demonstrate.
Week Two: I would talk alot about anatomy, joints and the top three critical targets: Eyes, Throat, Groin. Demonstrate.
Week Three: I would teach Delayed Sword. The idea being that the technique encompasses a few core concepts and principles. And through further consideration by the subject after our time together the ideas would reveal themselves.
Finally over the three week period I would train the above three topics relentlessly, maybe working in a front kick and hardcore backknuckle; bag work to get the subject in shape and used to impacting. I would also make sure to hit them a bit to give them the flavor of that so that when it happened they would be a bit less freaked out.
so my three would be Neutral, Anatomy/Critical Targets, and Delayed Sword over a three week period with lots of physical conditioning.
Take Care,
Justin
This message has been edited by jdismore from IP address 174.21.75.195 on Jul 2, 2009 12:47 PM
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Remind me, are you the one that studied with Michael? Did we meet? Sorry bud, I have a bunch of new students and it will take me a time or two before I remember your face/name.
On topic,
This is kind of what I was talking about very well done; I mentioned the principles/concepts for the purpose of giving leeway for motion lessons.
As we all know like principles are found in multiple techniques or Forms and sets, so by focusing on principles and or concepts for the student with just a few techniques or sets or parts of forms ( which are really just techniques) we are able to introduce them to the idea of embryonic basics, sophisticated basics, and sophisticated simplicity. Not that these are "master keys" or any more important then other principle/concept, but being armed with this type of information will allow the student to continue to grow on their own once gone from your tutelage. And it will be argued that this will only confuse the student and gain them nothing, and this would be true if the information and content is not tailored to the students capacity to understand and learn.
Remember I never said their was a right or wrong, there isn't. Was just trying to get something going. Thanks for your input, I look forward to seeing you on the mat soon.
Good Journey,
Todd Durgan
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