I would like to ask any who know about some of the changes that Mr. Parker made to Kenpo and other things, could you please tell me if the primary driving force behind many of the changes was for the sake of commercialization or for practical combative reasons or for some other reason and what that reason was. Also I realize that some of these questions can only be answered by those closest to Mr. Parker so if its not to much trouble, if your a student of say one of the Seniors then maybe you could ask em for me Thanks
1. It has been said that the Belt Ranking System used to be White, Brown, Black in Mr. Parker's early days teaching and also had some kind of stripe system, why was it changed?
2. It has been said that Mr. Parker originally taught 700
self-defense techniques including variations and 30 or so techniques per belt rank why did Mr. Parker change it to
24 self-defense techniques per belt and did he
drop or incorporate the others in some other way into
the system?
3. It has been said that Mr. Parker's early school used a Makiwara did Mr. Parker stop using this device and why?
4. It was said that in the early years Mr. Parker did not
teach "kata" or forms but that later forms were taken
from Chinese Arts like Hung Gar and later dropped for
others, Why were forms created and later changed?
5. What is the origin of the sets in the system? Did Mr. Parker's students create some of the sets, like kicking set 1? Was there at some point weapons sets like staff or chucks and why were some sets added and others dropped if at all?
6. What is the reason behind the publishing of Infinite Insights Into Kenpo Volume 5's 24 technique layout, was it meant to be the finial version of his system or how he wanted the system taught?
7. It was said that during Mr. Parker's funeral it was made clear that he did not pick any of his existing students to take over the IKKA or the leadership of the system is this true and why?
8. What exactly was a Protege <-(spelling?) and how are they different from regular students that Mr. Parker taught?
<br>
9. Did Mr. Parker teach any new material after 3rd Black, maybe techniques or forms or is 4th-8th degree for time in the art or for spreading the flame etc.
10. Was there ever a time in requirement between belt ranks, meaning you couldn't go from purple to blue without having spent a certain amount of time in that rank or was each student a special case and it was left to the instructors to figure out when the student was ready?
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I have a few folks I hope to get corrective emails from if I botch it, so...
1. It has been said that the Belt Ranking System used to be White, Brown, Black in Mr. Parker's early days teaching and also had some kind of stripe system, why was it changed?
Initially, the material was very basic. A black belt may not have known a lot more material than a brown belt, but they knew it better. Conditioning, power, application, etc. Mr. Parker had a voluminous and curious mind, and it wasn't long before he started categorization, re-categorization, etc. Different levels went from being denoted by fewer colors and more stripes, to more colors with fewer stripes, so to speak. There's a story floating around out there that some of the belt colors got added once manufacturers were able to make them. At least one of the belts got added because they could...the maker dyed them poorly, and a new color was born.
2. It has been said that Mr. Parker originally taught 700
self-defense techniques including variations and 30 or so techniques per belt rank why did Mr. Parker change it to
24 self-defense techniques per belt and did he
drop or incorporate the others in some other way into
the system?
Take delayed sword; that's 1. End it with a hammer, not a chop. That's
2. Step forward with the block instead of back; that's 3. Use a thrusting inward vs a hammering inward; that's 4. Minor changes catalogued as different techniques. Grab hold of somne of the old journals, or Mr. Hales Kenpo Journal on CD, and you can see each tech has variations...some scripted, some where you're jst encouraged to find solutions to certain problems using the technique at hand; ostensibly to teach you how to think.
3. It has been said that Mr. Parker's early school used a Makiwara did Mr. Parker stop using this device and why?
No idea; love the makiwara, and think every student orange and above should be required to work one as part of tempering a weapon and nailing weapons formation for application.
4. It was said that in the early years Mr. Parker did not
teach "kata" or forms but that later forms were taken
from Chinese Arts like Hung Gar and later dropped for
others, Why were forms created and later changed?
Boy, there's a can of worms that nobody ever likes to talk about. When you get stateside, a sit-down with someone not shy about it will get your more info. Hopefully it'll be with someone who's OK with presenting many sides of the coin without trying to influence the perception of truth to one history vs another.
5. What is the origin of the sets in the system? Did Mr. Parker's students create some of the sets, like kicking set 1? Was there at some point weapons sets like staff or chucks and why were some sets added and others dropped if at all?
Kicking set 1 is the brainchild of Mr. Tom Kelley. Other sets created by other guys, but Mr. P. always reserved the rights to influence the final product. As the old wisdom goes, even though John Doe made it up, do you think Mr. Parker would have added it to the canonized system if he didn't approve? That being said, I know he had favorites, and not-so-hots.
6. What is the reason behind the publishing of Infinite Insights Into Kenpo Volume 5's 24 technique layout, was it meant to be the finial version of his system or how he wanted the system taught?
Depends on who you ask.
7. It was said that during Mr. Parker's funeral it was made clear that he did not pick any of his existing students to take over the IKKA or the leadership of the system is this true and why?
Nobody had the whole picture. He wrote and spoke about something called the Philosopheers Mantle...a hood-like device often granted Doctoral level graduates. Said he'd grant it to whomever he thought really owned the system and all it's subtleties and complexities, but that none yet were mantle material.
8. What exactly was a Protege <-(spelling?) and how are they different from regular students that Mr. Parker taught? <br>
A Protoge is a student who stands out for some reason, so you spend more time and energy in coaching their development than with the others. Teachers pet, of a sort. The guy who's there before class starts, during class, and after everybody else leaves. He taught a lot of people; he mentored (truly) only a few. Even this was sometimes fickle. He had very public protoges, and ones he was a bit more quiet about. That has lead to a bit of the fragmentation and animosity that erupted in kenpo after Mr. P's passing. Wanna see some fireworks? Get public and private protoge's from different era's in the same room, and ask, "Who was Daddy's favorite?" Then duck.
9. Did Mr. Parker teach any new material after 3rd Black, maybe techniques or forms or is 4th-8th degree for time in the art or for spreading the flame etc.
Something Mr. Parker was brilliant about doing was using the kenpo system as a canvas for painting new perspectives on the concepts and principles that were the core of the system. A blue belt should not be doing Delayed Sword the way a yellow belt does; a brown belt should be doing it differently than the blue belt, and black belt differrently than the brown. "As written" is to create a standard for brand equity purposes. Once you "thought" you knew something, then Mr. Parker could steer the conversation into the multiple layers present in the material, and demonstrate that you really had only ever scratched the surface. Techniques aren't learned, then known. "Knowing" them just meant you could now have a meaningful dialogue about exploration of the content.
I'm in Wine Country. Sometimes, before you plant certain crops, you have to condition the soil...make it fertile ground. Learning the system up to 4th is just treating the ground. Then it gets interesting.
10. Was there ever a time in requirement between belt ranks, meaning you couldn't go from purple to blue without having spent a certain amount of time in that rank or was each student a special case and it was left to the instructors to figure out when the student was ready?
Train the trainers. Instructors were supposed to be trusted representatives of the systems standards. But even that was always a little wiggly.
Looking forward to other replies, and will post any corrections I get in the email box.
D.
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From those that I have spoken to, Sibok Kelly, Trejo, Planas, Wedlake, and others, and from stories I have read by the likes of Mr. Chape'l and others. the Tracy site is biased and not as accurate as they so claim it to be.
I would suggest contacting anyone of these men to get the answers to your questions.
By the way what is your MOS? I was a 68W2F (old 91B Flight Medic)
PS- I would imagine Sigung LaBounty would be another good one with much info on this subject.
"Whose "ism's" are those?"
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"From those that I have spoken to, Sibok Kelly, Trejo, Planas, Wedlake, and others, and from stories I have read by the likes of Mr. Chape'l and others. the Tracy site is biased and not as accurate as they so claim it to be."
I totally agree, my friend. Again, take anything the Tracy's say about EPAK with 10 grains of salt.
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Gary A Brewer aka BGile (Login BGile) 74.47.192.90
Re: You got it!!!
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June 30 2009, 1:46 PM
It truly is an interesting situation about, EPAK and Tracy group.
You have to remember this has gone on for 50+ years or so...Some are talking, some are not...Tracy has a lot of good information on their site, does anyone else?
Reminds me of another group, Kajukenbo and its history, from Hawaii, to Mainland West Coast and then to the East Coast. Different systems. Same arguements...LOL
Stories, got to love them.
Dave did a great job, I thought.
But most were not there, and very little is outside of the 5 II books that did not come into play about EPAK until the 80's... Also EoK that EPJ put out in early 90's.
To be honest that is EPAK... Before that was Kenpo Karate, AK, then EPAK.
So many changes, so many rumors...
Good questions Sami...
Regards,
Gary
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No, Gary, that is not EPAK. Those are books that represent a portion of EPAK. They provide a small foundation to the several story building. They are great for sure, and a must for any EPAK practitioner, but they are only a portion of EPAK. To get the full picture of EPAK you have to search out all the pieces to the major puzzle. Mr. Parker gave certain pieces to certain people and the full puzzle will never be unveiled unless you get them all in a room and they are all truthful with one another.
"Before that was Kenpo Karate, AK, then EPAK."
EPAK is American Kenpo, Gary. Just two different ways of saying it. Ed Parker's American Kenpo is American Kenpo.
This message has been edited by millhouse23 from IP address 71.162.39.93 on Jun 30, 2009 2:11 PM
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Not everything on their website is false, and a writer knows that it is important to acknowledge work (e.g. articles, books) that don't always coinicide with one's personal beliefs.
Simply picking and choosing one's favorite references to make one's own point leads to subjectively biased results.
Jamie Seabrook
CKF Canada
www.jamieseabrook.com
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Gary A Brewer aka BGile (Login BGile) 74.47.192.90
True
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June 30 2009, 3:21 PM
Why I made reference to your manual by way of Tracy site. As I have mentioned my writing can be complicated and hard to follow...Many ways of getting or giving info...
EoK, II books, Tracy, your manual, KK site...Made mention of Elvis, there is a book, mentioned Hebler and EPS... Another book was written, West, Hebler and others.
Exactly... about information, picking and choosing.
Been around the Kenpo world since 60's and before that if you figure my Corps training starting in 1959...
FMA was in the Corps since they fought um in early 1900s... Why I say, EPAK has FMA in it also.
Huk Planas would know it, so did Larry Hartsell and Dan Inosanto... Henry Slomansky comes to mind also... Talking to Joe Lewis about that subject too...
I understand Jamie...Thanks.
Regards,
Gary
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Joshua Meredith (Premier Login kenponet) Forum Owner 75.167.217.75
Re: It has been said...RUMORS
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June 30 2009, 6:36 PM
Here are some answers:
1. It used to be White, Brown, Black. there were a number of stripes on the belts. Then it went to white, orange, and so on up as we are familiar. Yellow came last. Why was it changed? To give more structure I would assume. He mentioned the school thing in the past, degrees of black = degrees in college. More levels, would equal more grades and less confusion where students were at.
2. He did have a large number of techniques, but most were variations. There were like 9 variations of what became Circling Wing and multiple of what became Twirling Wings. They both had variations of stepping forward and stepping back. This isn't needed if the techniques are taught correctly. First, the stepping forward or back can be a simple choice of range and then altering your weapons.
He organized it, had help from Huk Planas and Tom Kelly, and pared down duplication. Motion taken away from one technique was put in another. For more information on the historical techniques, you could look at the Tracy's curriculum. They took the material from the notecard box that Mr. Parker kept. They were the first to apply names. Mr. Parker liked the idea, but created a naming system.
3. I don't know why, but I would assume it has to do with his modernizing.
4. William Chow did not teach forms. I think Mr. Parker recognized the value of forms through his further studies with other practitioners. The Hung Gar forms like Panther Set and Tiger/Crane were used to fill in the gaps until forms like Form 4 and Form 5 were completed. According to an email with Mr. Hebler, all forms thru Form 6 were done (as in, he had learned them) by the time he opened a school in late 1963.
5. Tom Kelly created Kicking Set 1. Chuck Sullivan created Staff Set. I think the staff was added because its a common weapon (broom handle, shovel, etc.) I believe Chuck Sullivan's set was based on a few other staff sets taught in the Hung Gar systems. I would assume sets based on other weapons like sai, kama, etc. aren't standard weapons one may find in the street.
6. The 24 system published in Vol. 5 was how he and the other IKKA schools were teaching the system. Originally it was 32 per level without yellow belt. When the Infinite Insights were written, he was teaching it this way. Later, he allowed variations like the 16 curriculum. Seniors like Mr. Planas don't care what order its taught in as long as its taught with proper rules and principles of motion.
7. I believe it was probably made clear that nothing was set. He died when he was 59. I don't think he was really planning on this event just yet and therefore nothing had been set yet. I am guessing if he had known he was going to die (like had a terminal illness or something) more preparation would have been done.
8. Who are you referring to? By definition, a protege is someone who is trained or whose career is furthered by a person of experience, prominence, or influence. Therefore, technically anybody who he helped could be considered a protege.
9. Originally it was just extensions and Form 5 and Form 6. There were some forms in the works, like form 7, and Form 8.
10. There is a time between rank requirement that is still used by many schools. I am guessing these guidelines were probably implemented as he began franchising.
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Actually, I opened my first school (with Jim Thompson) in late 1966 and at that time, I knew all the forms up through the original 7 (double knives).
One little tidbit that most people are not aware of is that at one time there were 40 techs per belt (didn't last very long though). When I started in 1959, there were only three belts: White (blank, one tip and two tips), brown and black. Sometime later I sat in on the meeting with Ed and Tom Connor where the colored belt system was discussed and then implemented. The Orange belt program was 40 weeks @ $95.00 down and $10.00 per week for 40 weeks as opposed to the original rate schedule in place when I started which was $20.00 for the first month, $15.00 for the 2nd month and $10.00 per month thereafter as I recall.
Fun days folks, ya shoulda been there, you would have loved it.
Best,
Dave
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Hey Gary. Apparently the Air Force screwed up and signed me up with only one eye. Three years later they were of a mind to give me a medical discharge (long story) because of the eye(or lack thereof). I didn't want a medical discharge and since I only had about a year to go on my 4 year enlistment I prevaled upon them to allow me to finish my 4 years and get an honorable discharge. They agreed and allowed me to finish my service with an honorable.
I do have a couple of the original Ist editions (there were actually two Ist editions) of the Elvis What Happened? book but they're not for sale. You could check on e-bay or Amazon, I understand that there are copies still available.
Best,
Dave
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Thanks, for taking the time to address my questions. I had an uncle-in-law, who slipped by the original exam due to draft and needing folks. He was discharged when it was found out.
I was not sure at times if it was Foster Grant or you...
I'll check around for the book. I saw it at Amazon.com a while ago...Still there in some conditions...Now I know there are 2 editions, thanks
Regards,
Gary
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Gary, there were two first editions. Over a publishing history of some 20 years or more (don't know the exact number) ther were over 20 editions or more (don't know the exact number here either).
I know why there were two first editions but I think that this is a rare occurance in the publishing biz.
What about it Tom Bleecker, any info on this?
Dave
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Thank you all for your insights and to those who e-mailed me thank you as well.
I will reread the Journey when I get home.
By Protege I was talking about a rumor that certain Kenpoist considered "protege" where
being groomed to assume the mantle of leadership etc.
As to the Tracy sites, Will's and the other one, I have seen them both and reread them numerous times in the past. Even though I
do not believe almost any of it, it can be
entertaining to read, like watching
a samurai movie, you know the movie is showing
only one small side of anceint Japan and you note how many things are just way off. Still it passes the time.
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Gary A Brewer aka BGile (Login BGile) 74.47.192.90
Re: Thanks & thoughts
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July 1 2009, 11:09 AM
Sami,
At least you read them (sites) and have the various books, we have been discussing. The Journey has a lot of info in it. To bad Ron "Doc" Chapel was not one that contributed.
Bode,
He is in the II books and is noted as, Ron Chapel...Is that the correct spelling, or the other you see so often?
Hopefully he writes more, regarding the other questions.
Regards,
Gary
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Gary A Brewer aka BGile (Login BGile) 74.37.72.113
The Journey
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July 2 2009, 10:28 PM
Been browsing it of late, lots of information.
Wondering, where did Dr. Stevan Walton D.C. come up with the connection between Mitose and Motobu? Almost 2 pages on Mitose, different than what I have learned, read also.
Curious...
Regards,
Gary
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1. It has been said that the Belt Ranking System used to be White, Brown, Black in Mr. Parker's early days teaching and also had some kind of stripe system, why was it changed?
In the earlier days in Mr. Parkers teaching when he first came to the mainland, classes were very strenuous and physically demanding. However, the amount of material was small compared to even his commercial system he later instituted.
To that end, those tough enough to train continually were awarded a black belt on average, in about a year. With such a compressed timeline between beginner and black belt, the need for multiple belt colors beyond the three was simply unnecessary. Students didnt stay at and one level long enough to justify changing belts.
White belts were given black tips until they were deemed a brown belt, and subsequently black. The awarding of belts was not so much ceremonial but simply a right of passage one night when you came into the school, and another stripe put on your belt.
The awarding of a brown belt received a tad more attention, but not much. It was expected that if you trained hard, you were going to make it, and it was handed to you with a handshake. You put it on and went back to training.
Later the business of kenpo, and the fleshing out of the commercial material to elongate the experience, required built in incentives and a plethora of belts to keep people interested.
Originally ranking were, white to black, than later adding in brown followed by a green belt. Still later, saw the purple come in as the first belt color promotion. Than green was added, followed by an orange belt to the rank structure. The NEXT TO last color added was blue, with the adoption of essentially the Japanese Ranking structure of Ju-do which utilized the kyu/dan system counting down in Kyu to one, and up from Dan.
Once the art went commercial, it was found that that women and children were having a hard time making it to orange belt before dropping out. It was proposed by Tom kelly to insert a yellow belt for them, and 10 "easier" techniques were created for the belt. After awhile, everyone wanted the opportunity to get promoted to yellow so it became a part of the general curriculum.
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Thanks
