1. What do the Kenpo forms teach (rules, principles, whatever) THAT THE TECHNIQUES AND SETS DO NOT ALREADY TEACH?

2. What is the value in the extensions THAT YOU COULD NOT FIGURE OUT BY YOURSELF at the level that they are taught? At black belt level, should you not be able to continue to fight and make up your own moves as neccessary?
Please keep answers related to usefulness in actual self defense/fighting and not just theory.

Since you asked for practical self-defense and no theory (as if those aspects could be separated), I'll try to stick to practicality.

1. IMHO the only new thing forms teach us we didn't already learn in the techniques, is to feel the logic of angle changes. I mean the way to switch from an attacker at 12, to an attacker at 6 or 9.
Apart from that the forms do provide us a way to isolate your movement from that of the attacker, enabling you to perfect your moves. What I do with my students is first learn the techniques, then the form to perfect the moves, and then back to techniques with a partner to make those perfect moves actually work.
Last but not least the forms provide a way to train stamina.

Could there be found other ways to train those aspects? Of course. We could train angle changes with mutiple opponents. We could train stamina in a techniqueline with lots of opponents and we might learn how to perfect our moves with perfectly compliant opponents (and after that they start resisting to train that too).

But first we train forms to learn the angle changes and to develop perfect moves and stamina, en then we add those other means. The other means are not introduced in the first place because they are harder. We need multiple opponents which are not always available and the excersises require a creative mind because you'll have to make 'm up yourself.

2. The extentions. Of course we could figure it all out ourselves. Actually we could stop after yellow belt end go from there. I guess everybody will understand however that only 10 examples of possible defenses will not be enough to give a student a sufficient amount of suggestions to experiment with. Everybody also understands that 10.000 examples will be way too much, because you would have to spend more then one lifetime to memorize all that before you start experimenting and making things up for yourself. In the Parker system the choice was made that 154 techniques and 96 extentions were sufficient. Is that debatable? Of course it is, it is highly personal. But there's a choice there! If you think the amount of examples is too high, go train IKCA, they have only 56 techniques. If you think it is not enough? Go train Tracy's, they have way more. If you think you shouldn't memorize techniques at all, go train JKD, they don't have any.

Any of these systems are valuable to the ones that train it. My choice is for the Parker system, with 154 techs and 96 extentions. As a side note: we made the choice to train, memorize and require all 154 techniques, and train but memorize nor require the extentions. Every now and then I study a few extentions in written version or from video (since AFAIK there's nobody in the Netherlands that knows them all) and I teach that to our students. We train and learn any new possibility that's in there, keep that in mind and body and forget about the extention itself. It is my choice to spend my energy improving my coordination, power and precision, and not memorizing another 96 set examples.

Just my 2 cents.

Regards,
Marcel

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Marcel de Jong, 4th Black from the Netherlands

http://www.katsudokenpo.nl

1) The Forms teach relationships between various techniques and positions that aren't inherently covered in just the techniques themselves. Yes, this information CAN be taught in the midst of technique training but it is already present and available in the forms. Consider it a double factor.

2) The value is so that you don't have to figure it out yourself. If it were a matter of figuring things out on one's own then given enough time and the right circumstances many people can figure out all they really need to know on their own without instruction. Lesson's are there to provide information at a faster rate than figuring things out on one's own. The Extensions are no different, lessons to expedite the learning process.

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"the only thing we slap on are submissions"

As far as forms go, my opinion is that if you teach them before the same level techniques they contain many of the key basics to making those techniques more effective. Rather than give the student the chance to develop poor habits while working with his or her training partners such as poor stances, blocks or transitions. Learning forms is an opportunity for the teacher to correct the students basics without having to separate or pause two training partners and cut into their workout. Forms are also a way to remember certain concepts emphasized during that form. Good solo practice as well as a way to relax and cool down after a rough night of sparring.


I found myself already figuring out some of the extensions the first time around because my body felt like that was just the next easiest place to go from where I was at but other extensions I would never have thought of on my own and not teaching them would be a criminal waste of worthwhile insights.

One thing I really like about the extended or entire techniques is the opportunity it affords students to return to the previously learned material with the knowledge acquired over the years. The first time that you worked on the technique Five Swords you had orange belt eyes and now as a brown belt nearing black belt, youre revisiting that technique with this added perspective that can pick up on many points that you may have over looked.

The other thing in terms of practicality about having to go back and build on a technique is the idea of escalation of force The extensions teach ways to continue where you have already trained to put the attacker should the need exist to do so. It is one thing to drop an attacker on neutral ground and escape versus dropping an attacker on the ground in your own back yard Sure a well trained Kenpoist with or without extensions should be able to spot the target and start running the table but it does not hurt to be taught methods to do just that and it takes far less time if you can continue from a pattern you have already ingrained rather than stopping the advantageous chain of pain you had going.

Another great thing about extensions is that it answers some of the questions students have asked about, what if the attacker blocks, re-grabs starts to get back up or in some other way saves themselves from the initial burst of destruction, now your finding out that you can come back in or that you ended in the perfect position to follow up with this or that basic.

OK. I will agree that the extensions do provide some good ideas. My original post did state that they are being learned at the advanced level, so I would have to disagree with Marcel that we could stop at yellow belt (although I understand what he's getting at). I know that some of the older Kenpo seniors did not learn all 96 extensions and are they suffereing for it?

Forms are another thing though. Stamina-agreed, but there are lots of ways to exercise without having to learn extra material. Angles changes for multiple attacks- OK, but you are practicing against specific attacks, so it helps you most if you are attacked in a specific way and then a second attacker comes in with another specific attack. The principle could be argued to apply against any attack, but you are in those positions in the forms because you just completed a certain technique.
I don't see, Sami, why an instructor would not interrupt 2 students who are practicing something wrongly based on the idea that you can fix it later, individually. Repetition of wrong movement will have to be unlearned later if that is the case.
I agree with James that practicing the techniques and practicing the forms and 2 ways of practicing the same thing. Does it help to reinforce somethig by learning more information? Is it better to practice 1 thing 200 hundred times or 2 different things that teach the same thing 100 times each? I know that James is blessed with a remarkable memory, but this is not typical for everyone.

What I was trying to say is that you can use the forms to correct details. So that during partner training you have less poor basics to correct. The student has a lot to deal with during partner training without adding learning correct form to that full plate. No I did not mean let them do a technique poorly and fix it at a later date lol

1. In a practical since i look at kenpo forms as very useful training tool, A Baguazhang practitioner uses his circle walking as a way perfect his distance, his timing, stamina, breath control, ect.. while in constant motion never start/stop.

When teaching kenpo techniques most are done from the static position, but the form is a way to transition into another technique while already in motion, at a different angle, that way the student become comfortable with the tech and not thinking he has to always start from a static position. Some ways i like to train this principles in a practical method, is have my student walk and run down a hallway, and do w/e tech in mid stride, that way their comfortable with either foot forward and can make adjustments as needed.

2.Extensions of a technique is very important imho, As a former Tracy student there are no extensions, just hundreds of techs and variations and the way the curriculum is laid out, the techs are so far apart, that most student never put the pieces together. In my experience exactly what u said does happen students start making up extensions, but the made up portion is so choppy, nothing flows and it isn't natural movment.

Now having the extensions in American Kenpo , Taught me concepts , patterns, natural progression, and most importantly that i don't need hundreds of variations and a relation to each technique through the extension. It also taught me to flow through a technique, weather its to continue to graft or cover out, But never to pause or hesitate and have to think about what i could do next.

Example made up extension: I seen a student do dance of death stomp the guy, then picked him up to put him in a sleeper.

Order the Kenpo 2000 Manuals (www.kenpo2000.com) to see what the Forms teach.

Forms teach Angel Changes, Gaseous Movement, Timing when dealing with more than one opponent, Moving Blockades, about Critical Distance etc. Dealing with more than one environmental variable at once needs new ideas to deal with them.

Extensions... right point - therefore Extensions changed to Formulations... see Brown 1 thru Black 3 Manuals Kenpo 2000 (www.kenpo2000.com). Extensions where changed to Formulations in 1988 (as was Long Form #7 created, and Knife Set #1, and Long Form #8).

The Formulations add new ideas like Working a Downed Opponent, Words of Motion to sophisticate the Art etc.