Justice for All: Stigma of Mental Illness Explored or franklanguage the censor
Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-23 11:40:13 EST
Original thread here : "
http://www.veganporn.com/1052281362.html"
2007-01-22 08:25:23 EST
By Yasmin Anwar, Media Relations
16 January 2007
Berkeley, CA One need not look far to find evidence of the
stigma of mental illness, as can attest Andrea Stier, a graduate
student in psychology at the University of California, Berkeley.
She observed it in a recent clinical psychology class when a
student made the frank disclosure that she suffered from bipolar
disorder.
"Other students, who had previously been engaged and excited about
learning about mental illness in the abstract, became extremely
uncomfortable, refused to make eye contact with her, and were
quiet and withdrawn," Stier says.
That enduring fear of mental illness is precisely what UC Berkeley
psychologists - under the tutelage of Stephen Hinshaw, chair of
the Department of Psychology - are working to combat. Indeed,
Hinshaw's new book, "The Mark of Shame: Stigma of Mental Illness
and an Agenda for Change" (Oxford University Press, 2007) could
well boost compassion for the mentally ill from the grass roots to
the U.S. Capitol.
As Congress considers legislation that would require the same
health coverage for mental illness as for physical ailments,
lawmakers are becoming more receptive to evidence of the
injustices suffered by those with disorders ranging from
depression and attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder to
schizophrenia and autism.
According to Hinshaw's book, those who suffer from mental
illnesses continue to face housing and job discrimination, as well
as hurdles when voting, obtaining a driver's license and
maintaining child custody. "As a result, they lose out on major
life opportunities," he says.
Indeed, the public perception of serious mental illness is more
negative today than it was a half century ago, despite significant
advances in education, medication and psychological therapies,
says Hinshaw, who will give a public reading from his book at 7
p.m. on Monday, Jan. 29, at Cody's Books at 1730 Fourth St. in
Berkeley.
In his book, Hinshaw uses scientific, cultural, and qualitative
evidence to explain the historical roots of the stigma of mental
illness, how it plays out on a daily basis, and what can be done
to remedy this continuing problem. He warns that the stigma of
mental illness will persist until a "civil rights movement"
establishes equality for the mentally ill.
As part of their research into the stigma of mental illness,
Hinshaw's team of graduate psychology students are looking into
how the mentally ill are depicted in the news media, public versus
hidden attitudes about mental illness, and the responses of grade
schoolers and their parents to film clips about mental illness.
They are also studying how interpersonal dynamics change when one
member of a group is led to believe that another has been referred
for mental health care and may have a diagnosis of schizophrenia
or depression
Meanwhile, studies show that the stigma of mental illness prevents
tens of millions of Americans from seeking treatment. A 2005
government-funded study, the National Comorbidity Survey
Replication, found that fewer than half of those who reported
mental illnesses during that year sought treatment, and those who
did waited at least a decade, by which time they were more likely
to have developed additional problems. Comorbidity is the
simultaneous occurrence of two or more illnesses.
"Given the negative perceptions of mental illness, and the shame,
it is not surprising that people with mental disorders delay
seeking help for decades," Hinshaw says. "Concealment remains a
major means of coping."
Largely to blame, Hinshaw says, are primal human fears of members
of an "outgroup" threatening stability and survival, alarmist
portrayals of the mentally ill in the media, and the failure of
politicians and the health care industry to give equal footing to
mental health insurance coverage. While reports in newspapers and
on television often depict the mentally ill as dangerous and
unpredictable, the reality is that only a sub-group of people with
mental illness are likely to be violent, Hinshaw argues. Indeed,
people with mental illnesses are more likely victims than
victimizers.
"Neglect and exclusion impede adequate research funding and
clinical care, fueling the myth that mental illness is lifelong,
hopeless and deserving of revulsion," Hinshaw writes in his book.
Hinshaw, who previously has written about his father's lifelong
struggle with misdiagnosed bipolar disease and is a longstanding
investigator of developmental psychopathology, is particularly
committed to combating the sense of shame that prevents the
mentally ill from seeking help.
"While there is a strong recognition that prejudice based on race,
ethnicity and gender is a social problem that we need to
understand and address, such recognition has not been given to
prejudice - or its consequences - based on mental illness," says
UC Berkeley psychology professor Rodolfo Mendoza-Denton, whose
research also deals with stigma, but as it pertains to race and
ethnicity. "This is why professor Hinshaw's book is so important."
"The Mark of Shame" demonstrates how mental illness has
historically been marked with ignorance, superstition and even
torture, from the early practice of boring holes in heads to
release evil spirits to inhumane post-Renaissance asylums, to
eugenics and Hitler's genocide programs.
Moreover, the deinstitutionalization strategies of the latter part
of the 20th century, Hinshaw says, emptied most mental hospitals.
As a result, huge numbers of the mentally ill today live on the
streets or are warehoused in jails and prisons. Meanwhile,
conditions in psychiatric wards at the few remaining public
hospitals are plagued by understaffing, assaults, suicides, drug
trafficking and the excessive disbursement of psychotropic
medicines, he says.
"A far brighter future can and will emerge when knowledge replaces
ignorance, when effective treatments supplant custodial care and
inadequate community intervention, when legislation mandates
equality and when contact with the realities, rather than the
stereotypes of mental disorder, taps people's empathy," writes
Hinshaw in the book.
Source: UC Berkeley News
www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2007/01/16_st igma.shtml
Witty Repartee - Add Yours
Posted by SealHunter @ 2007-01-22 11:27:01 EST
Good article.
[Reply]
Re:
Posted by Bigjamesone @ 2007-01-22 14:22:52 EST
not being afraid to help others deal with their own or their friends mental health issues is a great attribute to have...
not being judgemental or afraid about the mental health conditions that afflict many people would help so many in such dire straights...
thoughtful as ever Frank Language....
[Reply]
Re:
Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-22 14:26:18 EST
Garbage article.
to quote:
One need not look far to find evidence of the stigma of mental illness..
Can we say diploma mill? Mental illness is not defined, nor is the "stigma" of mental illness. Beyond dumb. However I do actually have a very humble suggestion to make : Every man women and child, that includes college students, let's all put a grand smile on our face, and move to Iraq, if only to take a real close look at what is being done in the name of "democracy" and freedom.
[Reply]
Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-22 14:28:07 EST
Bigjamesone i don't understand what you are saying.
[Reply]
Re: Garbage article.
Posted by frank language @ 2007-01-22 16:49:42 EST
dragonfly writes:
Garbage article.
Well, you've got your own forum; please write us a better one.
[Reply]
Re: Garbage article.
Posted by Anonymous @ 2007-01-22 16:53:36 EST
Score: 1 (1 vote)
dragonfly wants the mentally ill to be ground up into sausages oh yes he does!
[Reply]
Re: Garbage article.
Posted by Bigjamesone @ 2007-01-22 17:26:25 EST
<<Bigjamesone i don't understand what you are saying.>>
anything that raises the issue of mental health in a positive manner is good.
i can name three friends who committed suicide and four more friends who have attempted suicide.
i can name name one friend who murdered another friend.
i can name at least two friends who are self harmer's.
i have two friends who have been committed to secure mental institutions.
i can name others who have been affected by violent actions either by war, or victims of crime, or violence by their partners and have never been the same since.
the list goes on, but its too distressing to even think anymore...........
without the stigma attached to mental health i would say with out doubt that these people would have had more and better informed friends, they would have have better and more understanding medical treatment. and i could say at least two of them would be still alive today and many others in a much better state than they are. these were the lucky ones who had friends, i dread to fear to think of the many that have no support due to the fear and ignorance of others.
that's all a bit heavy and i write this with tears in my eyes:(
[Reply]
Re: Garbage article.
Posted by GiantNinjaDragonfly @ 2007-01-22 19:20:33 EST
décidément, dragonfly (le infime) est forcené! est il est une merdeux.
avertissement : *CHOMP!* *CHOMP!*
[Reply]
déjeuner
Posted by GiantNinjaDragonfly @ 2007-01-22 19:38:27 EST
*CHOMP!* *CHOMP!* *CHOMP!* *CHOMP!* *CHOMP!*
[Reply]
Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-22 19:43:40 EST
yawn
[Reply]
Posted by GiantNinjaDragonfly @ 2007-01-22 19:50:47 EST
*CHOMP!*
[Reply]
Re:
Posted by GiantNinjaDragonfly @ 2007-01-22 20:20:21 EST
dragonfly the small knows all about the garbage! he lives in a big dumpster with his many many friend who are not real. makes it very difficult to hunt small dragonfly when they live in such a stink. OUF!
[Reply]
Re:
Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-22 20:24:57 EST
we're getting into dangerous territory here.
yawn
[Reply]
Re:
Posted by GiantNinjaDragonfly @ 2007-01-22 20:29:44 EST
why are you yawning? can you not sleep on sidewalk with the people throwing nickels at your head?!! or tired when accessing internet with your hobo computer?
[Reply]
blessed are the meek...
Posted by Anonymous @ 2007-01-22 20:34:14 EST
Score: -1 (1 vote)
Do i need a reason why? I'm trying real hard not to laugh. That's why.
[Reply]
Re: blessed are the kind
Posted by GiantNinjaDragonfly @ 2007-01-22 20:43:57 EST
now you are anonymous and brave, dragonfly. so you are thinking "i am superior to all because i am poorer than them so i have license to be cruel and hurt them. it is okay then."
you dishonour the word dragonfly! the spirit of the GREATDRAGONFLYALMIGHTY will visit you in your sleeping tonight and CHOMP! your lonely sad brain.
[Reply]
Re: dragonfly
Posted by Bigjamesone @ 2007-01-22 20:46:34 EST
you just pissed me off with your lack of empathy and ignorance
i can only answer from personal experience from friends who have been through the system, i'm only answering this for others who might be reading this not for you DF.
so when i was in visiting a friend who i had committed
(that means not allowed to leave the hospital and forced to take very unpleasant drugs, this continues until you are told so, with you having no choice in the matter)
i met another friend who i knew through his brother, he asked me not to tell anyone that he was 'IN' and when both had been 'released' they had a reticence to discuss their ordeal, where as most people who have been in hospital with physical injuries are more than happy to tell you about there condition
: sorry everybody else i can't really go on with out bringing up to many unpleasant memories and i'm angry about DF's flagrant disregard for others predicaments. its not the time or place to go into such details..
there is a wedge of info' on the 'net that covers this subject.
it is well documented....
please do not heed DF's rant.
there is a great deal of evidence that sufferers feel stigmatised and the attitude of the general population and even among caring individuals is very suspect:( without discussion by all many people will feel isolated and alone and risk further illness due to the lack of help available....
[Reply]
...for they shall inherit the earth...
Posted by Anonymous @ 2007-01-22 20:46:56 EST
Score: 0 (0 votes)
Let's get back on topic. Answer my questions or admit defeat. That is the sensible thing to do.
[Reply]
Re: inherit the apocalypse
Posted by GiantNinjaDragonfly @ 2007-01-22 20:51:42 EST
admit defeat?! he is so meek....and wants to win win win at any cost! peoples feelings are a big game for him.
what kind of meek person wants to defeat everyone and make them feel bad?
[Reply]
Re: ...for they shall inherit the earth...
Posted by Bigjamesone @ 2007-01-22 21:02:39 EST
just tell some one that you:
a)have renal failure
then try
b)a schizophrenic with paranoid persecution delusions on another
now clean your nails with a pen knife. just see the difference in treatment you get!
psychotic/psychosis
manic depressive disorders
paranoid delusions or delusional
[Reply]
Re: inherit reality please
Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-22 21:19:29 EST
I'm sorry! How was i to know that these
simple and
direct questions/remarks would be like
rocket science to oh so many of the others here?
...those of you living below the poverty line raise your hand.
Let me dumb down my previous remarks for you.
crys a million tears
Now then...
Before this thread heads straight into nonsenseland turf let's either
1) define what one means by stigma
2) define what one means by mental illness
3) define what one means by the "stigma of mental illnes"
4) preferably provide some examples that agree with the above definition
or in the alternative
5) let's all agree on or nail down a working definition for what "the stigma of mentall illness" is and how it applies in the real world.
Otherwise i stand by what i said. Garbage Article.
Oh and bigjamesone lose my email address. Stop throwing these "medical" buzzwords around because you saw them in some medical textbook somewhere or even worse, on another website. You still aren't defining what these terms mean and are leaving them hanging in the breeze as you are wont to do.
For example let's use the wikipedia definition for psychosis:
Psychosis is a generic psychiatric term for a mental state in which thought and perception are severely impaired.
Let's strip away the meaningless parts of the definition:
Psychosis is a mental state...
Yes.
..in which thought and perception..
Yes.
...are severely impaired.
Yes.
barf
Some people have a defective brain and some don't, but don't worry, there's only one teeny tiny itsy bitsy little thing wrong inside your head, here's your cutting edge solution, just some synthetic chemicals and a trip to the doctor will set you straight and fix you up in no time at all...errrr... in most cases that is.
I hope you can see how silly this is.
[Reply]
Re: inherit reality please
Posted by GiantNinjaDragonfly @ 2007-01-22 21:25:29 EST
dragonfly only posts to make people angry and get himself attention. notice how he keeps calling people stupid and dumb. he is a TROLL!
*CHOMP!*
trolls taste bad. probably from eating of garbage.
[Reply]
experiment
Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-22 21:43:40 EST
Let's move on.
From wikipedia: Psychosis is a mental state in which thought and perception are severely impaired.
Let's change "severely impaired" to "changed."
Now let's substitute the word 'sleep' for 'psychosis'.
that leaves us with...
Sleep is a mental state in which thought and perception are changed.
Wow!
But there's nothing really out of the ordinary or scary about that.
Sad but true.
i don't see how some unnatural and synthetic cocktail of perscription pyche medicines can change any of this. We are talking shell game here. Sorry.
[Reply]
Re: inherit reality please
Posted by Bigjamesone @ 2007-01-22 21:49:15 EST
sorry for you dude.
my mums a psyche nurse she also volunteers for a homeless persons shelter, she has done that since i was a child, so i was brought with a caring attitude also a bit of of a techno nerd fathers side and a bit of a gangster(a nice one!)to add flavour(rebellious phase)!
i live in cambrige you are either a techno geek or in social services if you live here, it has world known lecturers on both of these subjects most of my friends fall into these categories, even the mad ones, er! especially the mad ones!
i've seen more than most, i was in west africa as i kid and saw many things westerners barely accept.
as i'm not to judgemental about who i call a friend, all i need from a person is trust, this has allowed me to cross social and economic boundaries most don't get chance to... i know friends who live on the street and those who live in mansions.
it just irritates me DF that you show little empathy towards others who suffer as you do but in other ways, you may say dump you email but i am always open to listen even after a little spat like this, i never turn anyone one away who is in pain and is genuinely suffering. its who i am, i can't help who i am!
i suggest reading 'on becoming a person' by carl rodgers a humanist it may give you some insight, also consider finding out about self actualisation and how you neec to be safe and warm and fed and un threatened before being able to approach other emotional levels. it explains to me from what you have written your attitude/belief about mental health and why you don't get what i get.
[Reply]
Posted by DarkObsessions @ 2007-01-22 21:49:41 EST
I think ignorance is the most dangerous mental illness of all, and the most widespread.
[Reply]
Re: conspiracy theory paranoid android
Posted by GiantNinjaDragonfly @ 2007-01-22 22:00:46 EST
yup dragonfly (le roi de poubelle) has a personality disorder!
take your meds!
[Reply]
Posted by Triddle @ 2007-01-22 22:03:17 EST
Interesting article, thanks for posting that.
Also: CAT THREAD
[Reply]
Re: conspiracy theory paranoid android
Posted by Bigjamesone @ 2007-01-22 22:08:49 EST
GNF winding him up dosen't help:) although it might make you feel better:)
DF i just don't get you? what drives you? i suppose to much to expect from a message board, the limitations of this media, i suppose?
[Reply]
Re: la rondelle ne roule pas pour lui
Posted by GiantNinjaDragonfly @ 2007-01-22 22:14:35 EST
i know. i am only here to poke him every time he is evil. his bullying of people with mental illness was surprise for me though! i would not be even here if he had not been like that.
why do people at this place let him do it? do you have a boss or anything?
[Reply]
across the pond and living large but braindamaged?
Posted by Anonymous @ 2007-01-22 22:28:42 EST
Score: -2 (2 votes)
Bigjamesone i don't like your remarks, i don't like "fools gold" attitude that goes along with your remarks as directed at me, and i don't like you. I have always trusted my intuitions about people, and about things.. that's part of my childlike nature... but living on the streets for... oh.. let's say... about 13-14 of the past 21+ years has taught me to
always trust my instincts. So now i'm a "look and feel" kind of guy... sometimes i can tell when something just ain't right. If something doesn't feel right my head starts to buzz with thoughts and ideas and all that happy shite. And as a bonus i can almost always tell the damaged souls from the simply childish and confused, and the merely inexperienced or ill-prepared. i can tell when a social situation of sorts will degenerate into madness or more often than not childish stupidity with unerring accuracy. You bother me and you have
proven to me, here, on this thread, that i could never trust you... or take you seriously. You don't know my experiences even on this rather loosely defined pc topic, nor my life experiences... in fact you know nothing about me beyond but
your impressions by what i
write here and how i
respond on this message board. I say character defect you say paranoid, i say that doesn't make sense you say i'm misinformed, i say this cannot be right, you say i am wrong...
[Reply]
Re: across the pond and living large but braindama
Posted by frank language @ 2007-01-22 23:22:08 EST
I hope Dragonfly realizes that for once I have the power to delete all his posts.
[Reply]
Re: across the pond and living large but braindama
Posted by flutterby @ 2007-01-23 07:52:49 EST
I suggest you use this power if he asks once more what "stigma" and "mental illness" are supposed to mean. It seems that the article in question used only the dictionary definitions of those terms.
[Reply]
Trademarks and copyrights are owned by the folks that paid for them. Comments are owned by the folks that posted them. The rest is copyright 2001 - 2007 Thrust Labs. An exemption is freely given to anyone who wants to make a tattoo of Pornicus riding the carrot (our logo) or some derivation thereof, in which case we will love you forever
This is your entry. You can edit it or delete it if you wish.
Witty Repartee - Add Yours
Posted by Anonymous @ 2007-01-26 15:07:19 EST
Score: 0 (0 votes) Your vote: No opinion Good (+1) Evil (-1)
Re: across the pond and living large but braindama
Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-23 11:41:11 EST
I dare you to delete my posts here asshole.
[Reply]
Re: across the pond and living large but braindama
Posted by flutterby @ 2007-01-23 12:35:43 EST
I dare you to delete my posts here asshole.
Well, she won't have to, will she, now that you will presumably be restricting your comments to the duplicate thread you have started.
[Reply]
across the pond and living large but showing
Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-23 12:43:15 EST
And the duplicate thread will stay there.
Are you having a bad day flutterby? Don't bother yourself with where and how i post if you don't mind that is. Your previous comment is totally irrelevant, ie. in fact your premature claim about a dictionary definition or somesuch hyperbole, actually hits closer to home than you pretend to notice, rendering the article in question impotent and moot.
[Reply]
Re: across the pond and living large but showing
Posted by Anonymous @ 2007-01-23 13:46:10 EST
Score: 4 (4 votes)
people are allowed to delete posts in their own journals. don't be silly. you don't make the rules.
[Reply]
Re: across the pond and living large but showing
Posted by frank language @ 2007-01-23 15:44:09 EST
We're all praying for you, dragonfly.
[Reply]
Re: across the pond and living large but showing
Posted by SealHunter @ 2007-01-23 16:34:11 EST
No need to pray for Df. According to themself they have something akin to "spider-senses" and ESP. Look and feel tells them everything, which is why facts and pointing out their errors does not make a dent. They don't see it, feel it, or have their preternatural prowess tweaked by us mere mortals. Reading what we have to say is irrelevant when they have the power to just know what we mean, right?
If only we were so acute as to understand the mysteries of the universe as they have. We wouldn't argue or question; just bask in their glory.
I bet if my first comment was "this article sucked" they'd have argued black and blue how wonderful, timely, and accurate the piece is. Just like a real dragon fly, they're almost totally transparent.
[Reply]
Re: inherit reality please
Posted by Sardonicus @ 2007-01-23 16:52:41 EST
[[ i know friends who live on the street and those who live in mansions. ]]
Perhaps you should introduce these two groups of friends to each other.
[Reply]
Re: inherit reality please
Posted by Bigjamesone @ 2007-01-23 17:12:59 EST
<<Perhaps you should introduce these two groups of friends to each other.>>
i hope that's a joke 'cos its very funny:)
<inherit reality please> that's funny too 'cos i'm an irish/geordie cross so i have inherited reality, oh yeah and i still remember limbless children begging in the street in africa!
got a lot of homeless/street dwellers types in your pad Sardonicus?
[Reply]
Re: inherit reality please
Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-24 11:12:00 EST
Yeah well i'm german irish french and portuguese. I still think you're a boob Bigjamesone.
[Reply]
Re: inherit reality please
Posted by Sardonicus @ 2007-01-24 16:06:16 EST
Now now. If James is being a boob, it's only because he wrote this:
<inherit reality please> that's funny too 'cos i'm an irish/geordie cross so i have inherited reality, oh yeah and i still remember limbless children begging in the street in africa!
got a lot of homeless/street dwellers types in your pad Sardonicus?
I have no idea why you directed that at me. The "inherit reality" subject header was not of my creation. See far above.
I was serious about getting your two groups of friends together. Why would that be a joke? Perhaps the rich folks can help the poor, or at least realize how lucky they are.
[Reply]
Re: inherit reality please
Posted by lenni @ 2007-01-24 17:16:52 EST
Damn, I had hoped that only my diet and attendance on this board linked me to dragonfly. Here is the first time I have ever had a reason to feel negative about my Portuguese heritage...sigh.
Anyway, I think that it is obvious how stigmatized those with mental illness are in this culture. When I lived in the dorms last year and had free cable, I remember seeing some commercial for some stupid show where this woman went all around and did a bunch of different activities. That would be ok, but in the commercial, she said "I'm not schizophrenic-I'm just busy." That pissed me off because what she was describing doing had no relation whatsoever to actual schizophrenia. That is just an example of the ignorance about mental illness that abounds these days.
I'm no psychology expert, but I know a bit of the textbook-type info on mental illness and I at least have the sense to not talk shit about what I don't know.
What is it, 50% or more of homeless people suffer from mental illness? Is that the official number? Sad.
BigJames, I know you already know that you are a good person, but I just want to offer you a high-five. Everything you say indicates a thoughtful and kind person. I know you know you are right about the above silly shit, but for the record I agree with you.
Not all us Portuguese are such jackasses.
But Sardonicus was right about the rich folks needing to be more in contact with the poor. (this is in general, not necessarily a stab at your friends, but the rich don't deserve to have the luxury of ignoring the pain of the poor. They should at least have to pay the small price of guilt for their extravagent lifestyles, if they aren't willing to do anything to help the problem)
[Reply]
Re: inherit reality please
Posted by Bigjamesone @ 2007-01-24 17:26:55 EST
<<I was serious about getting your two groups of friends together. Why would that be a joke!>>
sorry! if you knew them you'd understand:)
some of the old convoy/traveller lot and some of the mansion lot, sort of know each other by proxy. these types have made lifestyle choices...
not all the people i know could be classed as sound, sane, reasonable, mad, sad or bad:/
but hey! they've not done anything to upset me(sort of, a certain moral flexibility applied to that), so i live and let live.....
some with mental illness or addictions i wouldn't introduce to many others due the the original post. it would just freak them out, both sides:( i have tried, when i was younger but members social groups are in those groups for quite good reasons. fairy or unfairly.
(how about that a thread back on topic? feck me!)
[Reply]
Re: inherit reality please or dumb and dumber
Posted by Anonymous @ 2007-01-24 17:34:37 EST
Score: 0 (2 votes)
Describe in more detail your 50% of homeless people suffer from mental illness remark. Like in what 50% and what types of mental illness. Show me how all this nonsense is determined what variables are measured and what standards, if any, are used or adhered to. Be specific. I am also looking for some "reliable" measure of consistency beyond income gaps, diet, educational gaps and opportunities and other typical bullshite social measures of success. Meanwhile more and more people are falling under the governments poverty threashold and becoming homeless themselves, due to the failed social policies and fiscal irresponsibility of the GWBush regime and his neocon agenda. Do these former prime examples of moral purity and the american work ethic now arbitrarily fall under your 50% mentally ill figure because they are not poverty stricken and/or homeless? I think the answer is obvious. You don't know what you are talking about.
[Reply]
Re: inherit reality please or dumb and dumber
Posted by lenni @ 2007-01-24 18:47:53 EST
That is the statistic (or similar; its been awhile) I learned in a past psychology class. My boyfriend has learned about those issues in many college psych classes.
*In what 50% and what types of mental illness* What? 50% means one half. One out of two homeless Americans suffers from some type of mental illness. Are you asking me to define what "50%" means or what "homeless" means or what? And what constitutes mental illness, I think any reasonable person would agree, is explained in the DSM. The "type" does not matter; though the symptoms may be different they still negatively affect the person's well-being and stability. If you want me to explain what I said you will have to be more clear as to what you need explained. I think it is evident that for the purposes of this discussion, those here of reasonable mind are not disputing what "mental illness" means-it is obviously not quantifiably measurable but still its definition obviously is not subjective as you seem to think.
I never said that it was their fault, therefore your ranting about (implying I am being judgemental) social measures of success is silly. My point is that many mentally ill people end up homeless/jobless/etc because our society does not care about or treat mental illness as it should.
[Reply]
Re: inherit reality please or dumb and dumber
Posted by Bigjamesone @ 2007-01-24 19:26:49 EST
my ex does social policy,
here (UK) the back grounds of homeless people (rather than travelling peoples/groups) was a split between ex military, the mentally ill and drug users!
not sure what it is in the US?
[Reply]
Re: inherit reality please or dumb and dumber
Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-24 22:09:05 EST
My point is lenni do you really think that is all there is to life, that that is all there is to a person? There is more to it than that. Plus i do want to bring statistics into this, could you point me to a reliable database. Let's ignore actual definitions for "mental illness" now i can see that you are in over your head. Just as you have ignored the factual basis for the increasing number of people who now live below the poverty line and now measure below the 2006 poverty threshold, due to misplaced financial policies and due to the increasing income gap here in America.
In your world someone who drinks coffee, has a mountain credit card debt spread over several credit cards, has a new house in the suburbs, a television or two, has cable or similar, drives a brand new Hummer or SUV, and does not go to peace marches doesn't qualify as mentally ill. And coffee is not a drug. I hope you really don't believe this.
Bigjamesone i know alot of veterans most of them cannot believe how much people disrespect nature and disrespect each other.
[Reply]
Re: inherit reality please or dumb and dumber
Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-24 22:23:55 EST
One more time.
My point is that many mentally ill people end up homeless/jobless/etc because our society does not care about or treat mental illness as it should.
Define mental illness for me, or give me a working definition, don't just point me to a database or something that you gleaned out of a textbook but don't know anything about, or something that is poorly defined and is usually described as being part of a mountain of causes and effects.
The "type" does not matter;
Wrong again lenni. Ever hear about misdiagnosis? How about when it comes to treatments and cures? Another worthless statement maybe you could tell me more about your symptoms and how they are measured.
Remember now you said that the science of psychological constructs and evaluation of eyewitness testimony didn't count.
The working definitions are beyond the issue of subjectivity that you mention. Cough up some evidence prove me wrong for a change instead of mishandling the issue and throwing more worthless buzzwords my way and playing the corrupt definition "it has to be right i saw it in a textbook" game.
My boyfriend has learned about those issues in many college psych classes.
It's my turn now... here are a couple of buzzwords. Snake oil. WOMD. Halliburton. Enron.
Let's take that trip to Iraq lenni. It might do you some good.
[Reply]
Posted by Triddle @ 2007-01-24 22:27:51 EST
I'll take a stab at defining what mental illness: pathologically maladaptive behaviours
OK GO!
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Re:
Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-24 22:32:54 EST
Not having a brand new SUV and a cellphone glued to you ear.
OK GO!
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Re:
Posted by Triddle @ 2007-01-24 22:40:23 EST
Yes, you're incredibly correct. there is a large portion of society that would see me as maladaptive if the only criteria was what kind of material wealth. But you're putting limits on what my definition pertains too. This is regarding your request for a definition of mental illness.
I'm going to bed.
[Reply]
Re:
Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-24 22:44:15 EST
No Triddle you don't seem to
understand my dearest...i have only just begun.
Live in a working class neighborhood couldn't cut it in the real world and caught a case or two.
OK GO!
[Reply]
This is what coherence looks like
Posted by lenni @ 2007-01-25 01:32:40 EST
Dragonfly, I really don't know what you are saying. Are you saying that I value material posessions or that I hate them? I am not in either extreme.
You contradict yourself, saying that the "type" (label) of a specific mental illness matters and then mentioning misdiagnoses, which would imply that "typing" or labeling a mental illness is not right. So what side are you on?
For a definition, I will agree w/Triddle's "maladaptive behaviors." As a totally non-scientific off-the-top-of-my-head definition of it, I would say that it is any condition or problem in the brain which causes a person to be unable to care for himself, be unable to function in society, cause harm by action or neglect to himself or others, be unable to maintain personal relationships, be unable to distinguish reality from unreality, etc.
For abnormality: Deviance, Distress, Dysfunction, Danger.
Deviance from the norm, distress caused to oneself or others, dysfunctional behavior or relations, danger caused to oneself or others.
Now before you jump on my mentioning the ability to function in society, know that I do not mean a mentally healthy person must necessarily conform to societal mores-simply that he must be able to exist at least alongside and possibly in a somewhat symbiotic relationship with the prevalent social structure. That is important from a survival standpoint.
And at whom are you directing these poverty/wealth comments? I grew up in a blue-collar family. My father started working construction in Portugal when he was very young after only four years of school. He immigrated to America because the fascist dictatorship in power in Portugal until the 1970s made that country incredibly poor and a bad place to find work. He worked shit jobs, learned English on his own, and put himself through night school to learn his trade. My siblings and I have all worked since we were in our early teens. I have never had shit handed to me, aside from being born in this wealthy country, for which I am grateful. But don't talk all this shit about the wealthy and act like you're the only one who doesn't have it easy.
Dragonfly, so you know, I do want to continue discussing this, but I warn you that if you are unable to be civil and cannot disagree with or question what I say without calling me names then I will end this discussion. Civility is not so hard to use as you might think. Calling me or my opinions worthless does nothing to change my mind or make your points stronger. It is counterproductive; stop it or you will have proved yourself to be as irrational and immature as your remarks indicate.
BigJames, I want to hear more of you. What would you say about an overlap between the mentally ill and drug abusers? I imagine there is quite a bit.
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Re: This is what coherence looks like
Posted by flutterby @ 2007-01-25 08:33:40 EST
Lenni: Don't do it. Please don't indulge df; it is distracting and annoying to those of use who are interested in this thread, His mindless attacks are neither interesting nor on-topic, so there is really no reason they should not be simply ignored.
Anyway, back to the topic... I have been thinking, and have not liked where my thoughts have taken me.
One of the problems with a mental illness is that it is very difficult to demonstrate that a person is permanently cured. Some illnesses, like schizophrenia, are acknowledged to be incurable; and while most cases can be managed with medications, the side effects of these are often so unpleasant that patients tend to try to get by without them.
So, imagine that you are running a small business, just getting by, and you have two qualified job applicants. One is a person who suffered a serious somatic illness and is now certified disease-free. The other is someone who has been diagnosed with a mental illness, but has been symptom-free for two years.
The first applicant seems like the practical choice, and it does not matter how odious I find this conclusion.
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candyasses that drive brand new cars
Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-25 10:02:18 EST
flutterby shutup. lenni you have contradicted yourself, of course, but i will return to that later. What i want from you is to point me to a website or two that can "diagnose" what is wrong with me, and/or what current pc flavor of mental illness i seemed to have acquired. I want to see if the diagnoses match.
Other than that lenni you are just selling snake oil here.
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Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-25 10:04:40 EST
Individual believes in ghosts but next door neighbor has a degree in psychology and goes to church every Sunday.
OK GO!
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welcome to buzzwordland, here's a brand new car
Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-25 10:08:29 EST
For abnormality:
Describe your normal and your abnormal, in laymans terms. The reason i ask this should be obvious.
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Re: candyasses that drive brand new cars
Posted by flutterby @ 2007-01-25 10:31:38 EST
What i want from you is to point me to a website or two that can "diagnose" what is wrong with me, and/or what current pc flavor of mental illness i seemed to have acquired. I want to see if the diagnoses match.
dragonfly,
I am no longer willing to engage you in what you consider "debate", but I would like to make a heartfelt plea.
If you know or fear that you have a mental illness, please do not diagnose yourself based on a website. Go to a psychiatrist, or if you have not sufficient money or insurance to do so, find a low-cost mental health clinic in your area.
The article mentioned that people don't seek help because they feel stigmatised. But you may have noticed that on VP there are lots of people who have been there and back. Please get help if you are not already doing so. And if you are receiving help already, tell them that whatever they are doing is not working.
[Reply]
Incurable
Posted by lenni @ 2007-01-25 10:39:11 EST
Flutterby, you're right.
The issue about "curing" mental illness is difficult. I think that w/the small business example, it would help to know from what the applicant had suffered. If it did not involve violence, delusions, or antisocial behavior, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
I think the absolute scariest and worst abnormal psychological condition is antisocial personality disorder. Aside from being incurable, it is also virtually untreatable. An antisocial person is also usually incredibly charming and a good liar, and so is able to hide his behaviors from those he uses.
There is someone who at one point in my life was very close to me and who for various reasons I believe might have an antisocial personality. It is scary and painful to realize with the benefit of hindsight all the instances where you and others were being used.
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Re: Incurable
Posted by Bigjamesone @ 2007-01-25 12:16:02 EST
schizophrenia (even though in this this case is an umbrella tern, there is no actual disease called this) appears my my experience, to have long term and irreversible effects on the character of a person. i believe from the little i know, brain chemistry as also greatly affected.
i can also say that in some serious mental illnesses, the sufferer can appear to be well and healthy, this is usually when dealing with health care professions and those that do not know the client, that is why when serious concerns about self harm or harm to others they can be sectioned(UK) initially two days (assuming there are secure beds available)
i myself have had a friend sectioned, a doctor,social worker and usually one other health care professional are needed for this process. they arrive at your house and interview the person then, if in their opinion, the person is ill (at this point the ill person knows vaguely what is happening and will attempt to behave normally, which can get the section stopped if they appear sane enough) call the police and an ambulance to take the person to the nearest mental health hospital.
the person then gets an interview by a clinical psychologist and then they are confined to hospital for usually two days to 28days for observation.
the above description does not give you any idea of the emotional trauma experience by the client or in my case as the person who arranged the section the enormity of having one of you best friends pinned to the ground as 5 psyche nurse wrestle him to the ground and sedate him. i was 22 and totally unprepared at the time for the extreme stress that this caused. all his friends had protected him from the system all being independent types, we had shut down his access to drugs in our town and had baby sat him for two months only watching his delusions/paranoias and actions go right off any acceptable scale.
i'm not going to give examples of his actions or thoughts as he was a good friend, you'll just have to take my word for it. that this was the most upset i have ever been about a friends condition, worse than a bad death, more like a living death for those that knew him. the drugs that he got were the strongest available and had massive side effects. his condition, now 16years later is under control, to be 'cured' that will never happen....
[Reply]
and the password is - snake oil
Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-25 15:22:15 EST
What's this??
lenni has waved the white flag, refuses to continue this discussion and answer my inquiries here... leaving a trail of unanswered questions.
Doesn't surprise me at all..was there ever any doubt? The answer of course is obvious. There was no integrity to her statements that i could detect.
Sadly the best she could come up with was the old reliable and usually dependable "that's what it says in a text book" defense and ending with the grand statement that there is such a thing as anti-social personality disorder and that it is uncurable. Of course routinely forgetting to provide examples and simple definitions.
Obviously lenni doesn't have a questioning mind or a clue as to what the subject matter that she professes to know inside out actually entails. Hence the reliance on buzzwords and superficial ad hominems. She doesn't know and couldn't tell you if she is defending her statements, her own personal believes, her own belief system, the american dream, or the science of psychology. These basic ideas are too remote and much too complicated for her. Something beyond her weak and superficial grasp of the subject.
Lenni is a victim of her own selfishness and stupidity. Don't laugh. Lenni is probably is a success story waiting to happen.. if you call a brand new SUV, a nice house in the suburbs and a mountain of credit card debt a fine example of success and a glowing picture of financial responsibility.
Let's not forget the mountain of ad hominem statements, childish personal attacks and not knowing what the term "arguing from authority" really means. Even tries to put words in my mouth and ascribe meaning and "evil" intent, when none is there, when asking only a simple question or two.
[Reply]
Re: and the password is - snake oil
Posted by flutterby @ 2007-01-25 15:25:29 EST
Lenni, do us all a favour and do not respond to this.
[Reply]
Re: Incurable
Posted by lenni @ 2007-01-25 16:51:00 EST
BigJames, that is interesting.
I know exactly what you mean about how professionals who might be able to help a disturbed individual can easily be fooled.
The person I mentioned above, who has messed up a lot of peoples' lives alongside her own was very good at hiding her shit for a very long time. She was actually going to a psychiatrist and getting ADD medicine (which she did not use properly, for help with schoolwork) while her life was otherwise falling apart. The psychiatrist kept prescribing it to her because she hid her very heavy drinking and use of other strong drugs from him. She was able for a very long time to blame her problems on third party influences. She refused to take responsibility for any of her actions, always blaming her problems on her parents, her professors, or society's bias against women. For a long time she was able to convince some people in her life that all that was true, and that is why nobody put the pieces together sooner.
She has now dropped out of school, owes a lot of money to a lot of different people and businesses, and hasn't seen or talked to her family or her old friends for weeks. We know she has a severe addiction to alcohol and most likely some other hard substances. I know she has used cocaine with some regularity in her life and someone who has seen other cases like this suggested she might be using crystal meth now. All this in addition to lifelong issues with rage, paranoia, mistrust, self-esteem, and impulse control.
I knew she drank too much and had money problems and temper/mood swing problems for years, but she covered it up and stayed functional enough that it seemed less serious than it is. It is so fucked up to see that all come out, seemingly from nowhere.
We don't know what is going to happen to her. She absolutely refuses to acknowledge that she has done anything wrong-everything is due to people "evaluating" and judging her. I hadn't talked to her since July because I told her she needed to get help and I couldn't have her in my life until she got it. I was not the only person over whom she chose drinking & irresponsibility. She has lost a lot of relationships over the past year. Since she has cut herself off from virtually everyone who cares about her and knows what is going on, she is even less likely to get help. She hasn't even gotten in trouble for her frequent drunk driving, theft, or confrontational behavior.
We are all pretty sure that if she does not get help very soon she will either kill herself or someone else in a drunk driving incident or overdose or get into trouble with dealers or creditors.
As much as she has hurt all of us, we want her to get help and get better. I don't think it is going to happen.
Sorry if this is too long or low, once I started talking about it the catharsis felt really good. Thanks for listening.
[Reply]
Re: Incurable
Posted by Bigjamesone @ 2007-01-25 17:45:55 EST
not to long or low at all. a couple of things lenni
one)
you can only do what you can do. sounds stupid or glib maybe? i spent years feeling guilty for be unable to help my friend get better, i did what i could. you actually cannot force her to do what you think is right, it's not going to happen, it's really not:(
if all the kings horses and all the kings men couldn't put humpty dumpty back together again what chance did i have?
its a stupid kids rhyme but is 100% applicable to those with serious mental health issues.....................................
two)
it hard to get a feeling how ill she is from your post all i can tell is its having a huge effect on you and you closest.
i'm going to assume she's not as far down as she can get yet, i'm sorry about that, thing will continue to degrade for her 'self', delusions and paranoia are possible (they are terrifying to watch in a loved one, this is not just a bit of silly paranoia you get with weed, which still can freak you out this is a 100000times worse) especially with addition of crack and meth
i'm going to assume that the drugs are a self medicating thing, not part of the disease but a symptom, she has no choice over what she does, not in the way you or i might want to give up smoking, worse drinking or worse heroin/crack/meth. (these become issues of physical dangers killing her more than the mental illness....
if she can not get help herself or does not realise she needs help that means she is out of any social control and you bear no responsibility for her actions, that sounds harsh but it means you can be there saying that for her saying 'you are wrong,' yet give her the support that you can. so confront when she is wrong, don't argue, you on a hiding(beating) to nowhere, logic has no place in the minds of the mentally ill because you do not know what they are thinking or even the reality they are existing in, its hard enough with sane types!
at this moment assuming she is able to get self control back for herself all you can do is listen, empathise and provide information to her, so she can help herself. then be there for her when she realises and you can help pick up the pieces.
if she cannot help herself then a big crisis is the next step where the state gets involved, here we have a pretty crap but totally accessible and free health system,
i advise you contact a friends or family support group that has access to the relavent information for where you live, for your and her sakes
if it gets to heavy for you, you can email me or call. if my experiences can help, i am more than willing to listen, i would not find it a burden by any means......
if she does improve she will feel remorse, guilt and shame. its not fair for her for for her closest. it will take years if not decades:(
[Reply]
materialism at its best
Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-25 19:34:43 EST
Individual is wrongly accused of homocide but cannot afford a Dream Team defense.
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Re: materialism at its best
Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-25 19:57:21 EST
lenni let's put our squabble aside for a moment. I know exactly what you're going through. There is nothing you can do when someone believes in their heart and soul that they are doing everything possible to meet the societal norms for success and happiness. If someone gets in their way or breaks the spell then just snarl at them or overreact, it's the arrogant thing to do. It's harmless. The routine outbreaks of emotional overkill/outbursts are completely necessary for ones own survival because they have been not been taught otherwise and it keeps them focused on other thing besides the inconsistent nature of their emotional make-up. Like a dog chasing its tail.
[Reply]
Re: Incurable
Posted by lenni @ 2007-01-25 21:00:08 EST
Thanks, BigJames. I appreciate your thoughts.
As far as the state getting involved, some of us wanted her parents to go get a court to order her into treatment, but they were worried about needing documentable evidence and whether they had money to pay for it, and then she disappeared.
And I know not to feel guilty. I just feel sad.
She definitely self-medicates; she has been since her early teens. As far as how ill she is, I don't what to say. She has severe mood swings and gets into confrontations with friends, family, and strangers over tiny things. She can go from joking and nice to vicious and angry in a second. She has very low self-esteem and though very intelligent she has dropped out of college after 7 years in a 4 year program. She has stolen money and liquor from family and friends (nearly $1000 from her younger brother). She has delusions of persecution by anyone who doesn't do exactly what she wants-she thinks everyone is judging her or trying to harm her. I don't know if that is a good description...
I witnessed a really scary episode of paranoia/delusions with her. It was the last time I saw her though we weren't speaking, we were just in the same house on Christmas Eve. She had a certain infection she picked up from staying in so many shady places (or promiscuity) and wanted to leave to go to a drugstore to get something for it. She was parked in and told her mom to move the car so she could get out. Her mom suggested she call the drugstore to see if they were open (they were closed, it was 9pm). She started screaming that her parents were holding her prisoner and she was going to call the police and her parents' jobs and tell their bosses "all" about them. She got a really scary tone in her voice that sounded like she was going to physically hurt someone. She worked herself up so much that she fell on the floor and was tearing her hair out. And her mom just wanted her to take a couple of minutes to call and see if the place was closed. Her dad moved the car, she stormed out with no coat or shoes and only in really ratty pajamas and that was the last any of us saw of her.
I think her mom was looking into Al-Anon and I would but aren't the "anonymous" programs really christian-based?
[Reply]
Incurable double standards or meet the strawmen
Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-26 14:42:48 EST
Individual is an immigrant and legal citizen, doesn't speak english very well and is wrongly accused of shoplifting and/or is assaulted and is again attacked by security guards or police and becomes combative, gets angry when asked stupid questions because he was on the way home to see his wife and pay his rent.
[Reply]
Re: Incurable double standards or meet the strawme
Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-26 14:45:42 EST
Instead of blathering on about incurable mental illnesses and pretended cures, why don't we talk about double standards, faulty sciences and having the rare ability to hide ones head in the sand.
Let's take that trip to Iraq lenni. Consider it part of your education.
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Re: Incurable double standards or meet the strawme
Posted by dragonfly @ 2007-01-26 14:55:57 EST
It's gets worse people.
Look what i found through a simple google search..
Famous People Who Have Had Mental Illness
Hans Christian Anderson
Ludwig Von Beethoven
Winston Churchill
Kurt Cobain
Charles Darwin
Emily Dickenson
Thomas Edison
F. Scott Fitzgerald
Betty Ford
Paul Gauguin
King George III
Johan Goethe
Ernest Hemingway
Victor Hugo
Ignatius of Loyola
Thomas Jefferson
John Keats
Abraham Lincoln
Martin Luther
Michelangelo
Florence Nightingale
King Saul
Robert Louis Stevenson
Sir Isaac Newton
The premier and one of a handfull of globally recognized geniuses in mathematics and science was mentally ill? Riight. He lived in the middle ages people. He was also a leading philosopher. How can you interview and/or attempt to diagnose Sir Isaac Newton when he has been dead for nearly 280 years?
This is beyond insane people. This is just plain dumb.
Lenni don't respond i don't want you to miss your credit card payment.
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[Reply] [Delete] poster ID: Min0beWknNRv2gKr3Da69A
